The Day of the Doctor

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  • #21773
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    With apologies if this point has been made before, but the (as it turns out, partial) painting title ‘Gallifrey falls’ brought home to me just how many ‘falls’ there are knocking around: Gallifrey falls, Summer falls, Silence will Fall, Fall of the Eleventh, maybe also the red waterfall (are the references to ‘Falls’ indications that we are in one of two time-streams?). Maybe it is a Sherlockian in-joke (Reichenbach)? It seems rather odd to have all these things tagged in similar ways, but I don’t see what the connection is, if any.

    #21774

    @wolfweed – How many of the 12,939 peak tweets consisted of OMG!!!! ROSE!!!!!!! 🙂

    #21776
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @fivefaces Good point. We should keep an eye out for that! Nice connection to Reichenbach as well.

    @wolfweed Do you have a detailed, international analysis? Would love to get my hands on that. For example how many people per country, general reaction per country and so on.

    @geoffers Yes, Clara and Bad Wolf are definitely part of it. But he might have tried to explain why he had to do it, just as he did with the Master, so why didn’t he?

    @the-war-doctor Hi there! Trying to be gentle. Though I have to say I think David Tennant will have moved on by then.

    Welcome to everyone new @elouise & @the-war-doctor ! Looking forward to your options on Doctor Who.

    #21777
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    Eleven was reading a book on quantum mechanics at the beginning of the episode. (@ardaraith says that’s because they’re still stuck in the time stream, which is a lovely idea). I also think it was a clue from Moffat that things were going to get quite timey-wimey.

    Isn’t there a multiverse theory, one that Heinlein used quite often, that every major decision spins off a separate universe? If we go by that then Gallifrey did burn and is still burning because the Doctor never redeemed himself, and in another universe Gallifrey never burned and was lost instead, and in another Gallifrey burned and was then saved. All possibilities happened because everything is always happening all at once.

    I never have been able to figure out the time theory of Doctor Who (I’ve got the Brian Cox special queued up), but I’m ok with believing that we are all stories, all happening all at once, and that the Doctor is good at occasionally slipping into a better/different multiverse (perhaps without noticing). Or maybe it’s all Clara working her re-writing. I wish I had a good understanding of it, but love the show even though I don’t.

    #21778
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @DenValdron- I agree that the aggression and all over badness of the Daleks is essentially a design feature.

    But there was the comment in AOTD that the Daleks have become stronger in fear of the Doctor- the ‘predator’ of the daleks- coming from Daleks, that title sounds a little like a compliment.

    #21780
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    Certainly the Doctor is a huge cultural figure for the Daleks.   Their version of Satan and Gilgamesh, rolled into one.

    #21788
    soundworld @soundworld

    @curvedspace

    Yes, Heinlein did user that idea a lot (I was an avid reader in my teens), but I don’t like the result!  You could view all the various possibilities as just that, possibilities in the quantum foam with each having a probability, until one version ‘collapses’ into becoming reality.  Clara of course is zipping about through the behind-the-scenes quantum superposition and making darn sure that the ‘right’ probabilities collapse(d) into reality.

    Time-travel grammar – I seem to recall Douglas Adams had a good go at that…

    #21789
    soundworld @soundworld

    By the way, I don’t believe that we are still stuck in the time stream.  I think the next episode may show us how they escape from the timestream, which will possibly be very easy as it is all collapsing already, now that the Dr had found Clara at the end of TNOTD.  The timestream has been changed bcause of Clara’s intervention so Trenzalore is no longer the tomb (or at least, not yet).

    #21790

    ^^^Wot @soundworld said^^^ re timestreams.

    #21791
    soundworld @soundworld
    #21792
    ahowe444 @ahowe444

    I HAVE A REALLY IMPORTANT IDEA I WANT TO PUT PAST THE PEOPLE HERE

     

     

     

    “The End of Time”
    10th doctor fights master and master brings time lords back from their bubble frozen in time and they are evil
    the doctor stops the master and sends them back when they say they want to ascend to higher beings and destroy everyone weaker then them
    in the episode “The Day of the Doctor”
    the event in which the freezing of gallifrey occurs is shown
    suddenly the 11th doctor wants to go back to gallifrey and it’s as if he doesn’t remember the events from “The End of Time” he should remember that the time lords became evil and that they can’t meddle in that or it could cause them to escape and the same thing that happened in the end of time could happen again
    NICE TRY MOFFAT

    Does this idea check out??????

    #21793
    ahowe444 @ahowe444

    ALSO THAT WASN”T THE real bad wold(rose) it was the sentient computer operating system taking on the FORMMM of rose

    #21796

    @ahowe444 – please don’t shout.

    #21807
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @ahowe444 If you read some posts upstream you will see that your thoughts already occurred to most people in this thread. The big question is how Moffat is going to resolve it. Any ideas? Bring on the bonkers theories 😀

    #21818
    WhoHar @whohar

    @wolfweed

    KATE (on mobile phone): Malcolm? Malcolm, I need you to send me one of my father’s incident files. Codenamed Cromer. 70s or 80s depending on the dating protocol

    It’s these little details that delight the likes of us, without disturbing the narrative, while meaning nothing to those who aren’t in on the joke.

    Moffat is possibly the ultimate fanboy, albeit one who can write.

    #21832
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @badwolfgirl – You say:

    Since Gallifrey is saved and, therefore, all 2.47 children, are Doctor’s children among those? Because we don’t know at which point in time they died (presuming it was during the time war) and is there a possibility they are still alive, somewhere on Gallifrey?

    Yes, I was wondering about that, too. It’s always been one of my bonkers theories that Susan (his granddaughter) was on Gallifrey when it burned: the Doctor seems so certain he no longer has a family. So it’s quite possible his granddaughter and great-grandchildren are now still alive.

    Some people on here have been speculating that Clara might be related to Susan in some way – there’ve been little hints of a connection. When she visited the Black Archives she seemed particularly interested in Susan’s photo.

    #21846

    @thommck

    I always interpreted it as a “non-violent” war, i.e. a timelord would alter time, then a Dalek would go back and alter time to counteract it, then a timelord would go back and change that time ad infinitum. Like they were all sitting above time (outside the pipes 😉 ) playing a game of chess with the universe.

    See, here’s the thing. It involves the Daleks – it would be anything but non-violent. Even if the Time Lord High Council and the Dalek High Command had their chess sets out, they would be using them to move real people and take real squares.

    #21848
    thommck @thommck

    @pedant, You are quite right, it would be very violent but if someone then goes and undoes it then does that mean the blood was never spilled?

    I concede that planet’s blipping out of existence could probably be classed as violent 😛

    #21871
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @thommck

    I agree with you that the earlier stages of the Time War could have been like that – with the consequence on the rest of the universe of time constantly in flux – if you were caught in it, as collateral damage, you wouldn’t be able to live your life with any sort of stability or consistency. Maybe as in the Wedding of RS you would get times when “everything happens at once”.

    But I also agree with @pedant that this is the Daleks we’re talking about – hatefilled, homicidal killng “machines” whose main motivation in everything is to “DESTROY”  Any manipulation of time they were doing was a means to an end – to get close enough to the TimeLords to exterminate them. (And anything else in their way)

    You can only imagine the events that led up to this “last day”. (Incidentally – why is this the last day? (because the Dr (always?) ends it today, or because the Daleks are on the brink of victory?)). The Time Lords have used ALL their store of WMDs, except the Moment – how badly would these affect the innocent bystanders? They might not have the shootemup weapons the Daleks have (although we don’t know) but they sure know how to mess with people’s heads and timestreams.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, we don’t need to see the details of the War onscreen. But we do need to see its effects.  We see it in the frightened, fleeing women and children. We see it in the exhausted and demoralised time- and war-ravaged War Doctor.  We see the effect the War Doctor has had, and the awareness that he’s probably been working as a guerilla-style lone wolf – the TimeLords are exasperated and a bit afraid of what he will do (but they have no solutions themselves (apart from Rassilon’s group who are busy making their own plans) and we see how effective he’s been against the Daleks who immediately stop the imminent extermination of the group of refugees they’ve rounded up when they sense the Doctor – their greatest enemy – is in the area.

    And presumably once Gallifrey falls, the Daleks would indeed be masters of the universe, dedicated to destroying all “other” life.

    Yet even he cannot find a way to finally end it. Until he meets the Moment. (Love it – the Ultimate Weapon, but it’s developed (I noticed they didn’t say it was deliberately built in) a conscience that will talk you out of using it!  (Does this suggest that TARDISes developed sentience also, rather than it being designed in?))

    #21872
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck – there’s a line in The End of Time from the woman Time Lord on the High Council.

    This is only the furthest edge of the Time War. But at its heart millions die every second. Lost in bloodlust and insanity. With Time itself resurrecting them to find new ways of dying, over and over again. A travesty of life. Isn’t it better to end it at last?

    So if any of the people killed can remember the alternate time-streams, the Time War is a suburb of Hell. Which would fit with The Night of The Doctor – that’s why Cass hates the Time Lords so much; the universe is burning, planets are destroyed – and you don’t even get to ‘rest in peace’. Instead you get to die again and again and again.

    Oh, great – a Time Lord is rescuing me. How many times can one person die? Well, if he gets me involved in the Time War…

    #21875
    Anonymous @

    RE. Time War. As @pedant says, it’s significant that it’s the last day of the Time War. Gallifrey is the last man standing, as it were. The eye of the storm. I imagine that all across the universe (which is burning we’re told) that all sorts of time-related atrocities are taking place.

    I too always had the idea that the Time War wouldn’t be a traditional conflict — that it would perhaps take place ‘out of time’ and to the outside observer would only have the duration of mere seconds, with planets, galaxies suddenly winking out of existence for no externally observable reason (although Cass in Night of the Doctor seems to suggest that this is not the case). The other idea I had was that it is not a war in the localised conflict sense but is a ‘war’ in the sense that the Cold War was a ‘war’. I.e. it is one that takes place over separate locations and times. Which would tie in with RTD’s idea that Genesis of the Daleks was the inciting incident that started it in the first place. (Although I’d maybe go further and possibly argue that the start of the war predates even that and that Genesis is just one of its many skirmishes.)

    #21878
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @jimthefish Agreed re fitting in Genesis etc as part of the War. Especially since DotD explicitly brought all the Doctor’s incarnations into the plan.

    @bluesqueakpip Good quote

    I suppose I’m reacting against the people who are clamouring to see the actual war in action, which I see as a craving for special effects, OMG dramatic visuals and a bit of visceral excitement at big explosions. Whereas I think what we got was much more powerful (the after effects of war, and how it affects the people who take part), and in keeping with the Doctor’s long history as peacemaker.

    #21880
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb and @jimthefish – yeah, I always thought that they could never afford the Time War on a TV budget. It was always going to be the effect on the people that they could show – the terrified parents, about to see their crying toddler exterminated by a Dalek while the child clutched his teddy bear.

    Fortunately for the crying toddlers clutching their teddy bears whilst watching, the Doctor uses the TARDIS as a battering ram. 🙂

    I’d agree that Genesis was the opening shots. Perhaps the Time Lords also only survived because the Doctor delayed the emergence of the Daleks.

    As I said elsewhere (given Steven Moffat’s reputation for giving producers nervous breakdowns as he goes massively over budget) I think we saw more Time War than the budget could afford.

    #21882
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip – the TARDIS as battering ram – how good was that?! 😀 (Puts a different light on “I never take her into battle” in BoSJ)

    And the threat that the Daleks were going to exterminate the cornered group, inc the little kids, felt very real. I realise it’s a lot to do with budgets, but I really like when they limit the number of Daleks on screen. They seem like a much bigger threat when you only show 1 or 2.  1 detemined grumpy Dalek is  all you need to kill you. And all your friends. They don’t need to move fast, they just need to be relentless.

    #21895

    @scaryb

    1 detemined grumpy Dalek is all you need to kill you.

    I love the implication of the concept of a non-grumpy Dalek!

    @All

    On The Time War I don’t think I can put my view better than in this reply to @juniperfish  (damn she brings out the best in me). I was especially proud of “Deus ex Moment”, so I’m damned well gonna highlight it again!

    #21896
    Rob @rob

    Re The Time War

    In a non subjunctive timey wimey sense this is not an opening of The TimeWar, it is a strategy developed to remove the Daleks from involvement in it

    The First Doctor encountered them but the Fourth Doctor had a fleeting moment to destroy them and if memory serves me right he was sent there by the Timelords

    The Daleks do not follow a linear path through   series  they are more like a really really really angry River

    Bonkers is my middle name 😉

    And editing a post on a tabletis enough to make a Dalek seem calm and restrained

     

    #21897

    @rob

    *Head explodes*

    #21899
    badwolfgirl @badwolfgirl

    @bluesqueakpip thank you so much for putting my post in the correct topic. It somehow seems impossible that everyone he knows and/or cares about is gone. And that he didn’t manage to save at least one person. That’s not the Doctor we know and love.

    I don’t know if Clara’s related to Susan, I guess we will find out eventually what’s the real deal with Clara, but I am certain that somewhere out there, even if it’s on the trapped Gallifrey, there is someone Doctor cares about. And hopefully, maybe even his children.

    #21902
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @bluesqueakpip
    I loved the quote and demonstrates that for the timelords and daleks that the time war is a war of constant revisions with planets and races disappearing as each side battles to change events in order to destroy the other and the other side countering in order to prevent the their enemies actions.

    Also it would make even the most peace loving person willing to do anything to put a stop to it, so the war doctor considering the actions he was considering in using the moment is understandable. I’ve also believed since DW came back and revealed the originally supposed fate of gallifrey that the doctors actions may have also to prevent a complete fracturing of time. Of course this is only my own wild assed opinion

    #21906
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    I have just read this whole topic, all 5 pages. There are some truly inspired ideas in here so I’m hoping someone can clear this up for me…

    Trenzalore is the final resting place of the Doctor. I took this to mean that if he runs for another 1,000 or 50,000 years, regenerates once more or 100 times more that this, at the end of it all is still where he eventually ends up.

    And in here we see his entire life as the rip in space/time, Clara jumps in and sees all his faces including The War Doctor that he tried to hide even from himself……so why wasn’t Capaldi’s face in there?

    That’s Query 1.

    I did listen to the arguments for and against trying to hard to explain the hows and the whys but I would be interested to hear you suggestions for how he contacted all his other incarnations….

     

    …..or are we to believe that The Moment facilitated that too? Then she also contacted the Capaldi Doctor? In that case why stop there…..unless Capaldi is the last and it is he that ends up at Trenzalore?

    But if that’s the case it brings me back to …..

    …….why didn’t Clara see Capaldi in the timestream?

    #21908
    Anonymous @

    @scatamonky — I’m thinking because he wasn’t in there. What if the regeneration limit is solved by Matt’s Doctor actually dying at Trenzalore and the name of the Doctor being taken by an entirely different Time Lord who takes on mantle, as it were. This would have been an issue if the destruction of Gallifrey and the time lock was still in place but that particular objection seems to have been taken care of by The Day of the Doctor. No reason now why there can’t be other Time Lords kicking about.

    This way the regeneration limit is solved while still remaining in place — and there could even be a nice element of doubt if we’re never told at exactly what stage in the regeneration cycle the ‘new’ Doctor is at. And as The Name of the Doctor pointed out who the Doctor is isn’t important. It’s the actions done under the name of the Doctor that count.

    #21909
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scatamonky – this is why I’m sort of in favour of the ‘two timestreams’ theory. It might also be why Moffat’s being a bit cagey over whether saving Gallifrey always happened, or the Doctor just altered his own personal past.

    I think the reason Clara didn’t see Capaldi was that – until the Doctor changed his mind – the Capaldi Doctor didn’t exist. Which is why the titles suggest a trilogy; this is not a three parter as such, but three connected episodes.

    Once the Doctor has changed his mind, he also changes his future. Until that moment, there is no Capaldi Doctor. After that decision, there’s a future for the Doctor – and that future, represented by the next incarnation, flies in to help save his home.

    And then that future, which we’ve only seen before as a possible, momentary flicker as the Smith Doctor looks at the painting, has a nice chat with the Smith Doctor. It’s the future Doctor who planted the painting with Elizabeth; the Doctor’s own future has been trying to save himself.

    #21910
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    That thought had occurred to me too Jim. The Timelords are an ancient race that have been around for millions of years….

    …..surely in all that time there must have been at least one other Doctor that decided to take the name Doctor!

    My Timelord knowledge is sparse compared with you fine folk on here but I always imagined that there is a distinct difference between being Gallifreyen and being a Timelord. So although there have been billions of Gallifreyens throughout history maybe only the top 1% ever make it to Timelord status. Didn’t they say in “The End of Time” that some go mad when they are presented to the Vortex for the very first time?

    However, when you see the Doctor stealing the Tardis with Clara’s guidance the repairmen seemed more like run of the mill garage mechanics than creme de la creme of the very elite scientific minds!

    So Tardises seem almost common,  everone’s got one…..its essentially a Gallifreyen Ford Focus!!!! 🙂

    #21928
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimthefish – however, in the poster for The Time of The Doctor, Capaldi’s face is seen in flames. They look like regeneration flames to me. Plus there’s the ‘all thirteen of them’ comment.

    In addition, it’s kind of going to negate the entire drama of ‘the search for home’ if we’ve now got Time Lords trotting about the universe going ‘oh, yeah, you find us in two hundred years time. On a Saturday, around teatime.’
    😉

    #21958
    OCalTh3Irish @ocalth3irish

    @denvaldron I feel like youre looking for too many things wrong in the episode.  youre reading in to it too much.  The Moment opened all three portals on purpose, at exactly the points she wanted to, by looking into the Doctor’s timeline.  We know she can do that because thats how she explains looking like Rose.  As for what The Moment can do, you really dont need to know, you just really want to know.  Yes its done a lot to help explain in stories but I dont think its completely necessary.  I actually found it made the Moment more terrifying because as far as we know it could be capable of anything.  Hurt tells us its “the most dangerous weapon in the universe”  and we know it destroys Gallifrey, do we really need to know the specifics? I dont think so.  It wouldve been nice to know but we werent told so i just kinda ran with it cause i wanted to enjoy the special.  as for how elizabeth knew the plan, i just assumed she was cunning enough to use subtle ways of gleening info about the attack plan by not just being told but by observing and putting the pieces together herself.  All in all, just enjoy the show man.  Its never been about being accurate in every way its just meant to be enjoyable 🙂

     

    #21959
    geoffers @geoffers

    @scatamonky – i’ve been obsessing over the whole “we die at trenzalore” thing, too, as matt told david in ‘tDotD.’ the timey-wimey-ness of ‘the name of the doctor’ has really put a bend in my brain!

    my only way of understanding it (until it’s made more explicit, hopefully in the upcoming xmas special), is that matt’s doctor was the final one, so that made trenzalore the final resting place of all the doctors he’d been (no future doctors because he’s the last, so clara doesn’t see capaldi). but, the “minor skirmish” that killed him (as indicated by the great intelligence) was the battle with the great intelligence that we see in the episode. the g.i. saw the doctor’s future from his own p.o.v., not the doctor’s, whereas the doctor knew if he got out alive, with clara’s help, then he can still have a future. (the doctor knew he was probably going to die on trenzalore, but he also knew he could pull another “lake silencio” because of clara.) thus, the future predicted by the g.i.’s victory was re-written by clara’s saving the doctor (before we even see him die on screen), so that trenzalore is no longer his final resting place. and then he and clara go on to re-write that terrible day in his past, with the future capaldi doctor, in ‘tDotD’…

    but… in the upcoming special, we see that matt and clara are going back to trenzalore (i don’t think they’re still trapped there, because of capaldi’s appearance in the 50th), so it looks as if there’s an alternate future where matt’s doctor does die there, just not as a result of the battle with the g.i.. and so he regenerates into capaldi (or some other crazy thing happens, which i will not discuss here due to possible spoilers!)… whom he’s already seen, now, as a future self. (or, maybe he does not remember that little detail, because of the re-syncing timestreams?)

    one thing that can really throw off this interpretation, is whether matt’s tardis window is still broken. it wasn’t in ‘tDotD’ (and the next incarnation, capaldi, is there), but if it is in the xmas special… then i’m really at a loss to explain anything! lol! ‘tDotD’ was clearly from matt’s p.o.v., it was his decision to re-write his past (along with hurt’s and tennant’s, and eccleston’s pasts), and he finishes that adventure knowing he should still have a future (because of the talk with the curator). so certain is he, that he’s already excitedly anticipating his search for gallifrey! so, whether he can remember capaldi’s help or not, he still thinks he has a future to look forward to…

    as for how he contacted all his other selves, that can be explained by the tardis, and her telepathic circuits. just as he shared his plan to save gallifrey with hurt and tennant, telepathically (quite clearly, in the episode), then he must have also called out to his other incarnations the same way, once they were on their way(s) to do the deed…

     

    hmmm. well, it makes some sense to me, as well as all this re-writing of futures can, at any rate! hope this helps? 🙂

    #21960
    geoffers @geoffers

    “So Tardises seem almost common,  everone’s got one…”

    @scatamonky – but not everyone who gets one travels in it, constantly, for thousands of years, like the doctor! recall, his journeys through space and time were damaging enough to endanger all of time and space…

    and, those other tardises probably didn’t develop sentience (again, over time) like Sexy has…

    so, even if some other time lord took the name of the doctor, he would only become “Our Doctor” if he managed to also acquire this unique tardis!

    🙂

    #21967
    geoffers @geoffers

    @ everyone – as quite a few have debated the whole “did the doctor re-write a horrible past event (and three incarnations just can’t remember it’s fixed, now), OR did he never really make the decision to let gallifrey burn in the first place (because he could/would never do such a thing)” question…

    well, i’ve had too much time to kill today, and have a further question to throw into the cauldron! (let’s see what timey-wimey-ness ‘splodes out of this, lol…)

    what i believe: the war doctor must have made that original decision to use the Moment, and that it led directly to the events in ‘tDotD.’ 9, 10, 11, all suffer from the knowledge of what was done, for the next 400-ish years, and to varying degrees. and now only 11 “remembers” that he’s changed his personal timeline…

    but… on that original day, when the war doctor actually used the Moment (remember, he only decided not to in the re-write, due to clara’s intervention)… where was the interface??!! did it not appear, to guide him, that first time around? if it did (as i assume it would have to), why did it allow him to choose that course of action, unhindered? could it not have shown him the consequences (what would happen to his future selves), without bringing them there to help him avoid that future? or did it just guarantee that he would live on, knowing that a future version would come back to revisit the decision, much later on? (which may only be a blink of an eye for such a sentient creature, of course.)

    to be more specific, i’m just wondering how that original conversation might have gone, because, if the interface did bring his future selves (and clara) to him on that original day, as well, to try to persuade him to make the right choice… wouldn’t that mean that gallifrey never really burned, because he never really used the Moment (since 11 decided not to)?!!

    apparently the most dangerous weapon in the universe might as well have been just something to sit on, at least that one time…
    🙂

    #21969
    Rob @rob

    The Who portion of the old brain box is babbling on in bonkers mode today….

    If The 13th Doctor turns up in the Time War  then surely the Time War is still active during his own time stream? As I can’t remember a future Doctor being present bar when the Timelord Council tweaked with time to make the Valeyard? Correct me if wrong

    Otherwise we could have had any number of future Doctors turning up to help move Gallifrey?

    Or the whole story is actually being told from 13’s perspective making the episode historical

     

     

     

    oI

    #21974
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    That’s a good point Geoffers, that’s a fully fledged bastard of a good point (10 points if you can name that movie!)

    There is no way that that conversation could have happened twice.

    The only way it all makes sense to me in a linear sense is this.

    The War Doctor takes the Moment into Clark Kents Barn and begins trying to activate it. Now do you remember that movie Paycheck with Ben Affleck? Lets say that the Moment the Moment appears is the beginning of his memory trace.

    Now lets imagine that the moment he regenerates into Ecclestone is the end point of his memory wipe. Then from his own perspective he went into that shed tried to activate the Moment and woke up after a regeneration with the war over and no sign of Gallifrey. As far as he knows he did destroy his planet and everyone on it.

    From an outsiders point of view, Gallifrey never burned. It was always transported into the freeze frame planet sized picture frame. Genocide is a pretty awful crime and I think The Moments punishment to the Doctor for even considering pushing the button was to spend the next 400 years thinking he had!

    This pans out fine for me as long as we’re only thinking about War Doctor and his successors, however it takes another leap of imagination to wrap your head around

    a) all his previous incarnations being contacted

    b) all his previous incarnations having no memory of what happened after it disappeared!

    #21977
    thommck @thommck

    RE: Capaldi, I just left a comment on the xmas special thread theorising that we may not even see Matt regenerate into Capaldi (they could still film it now for later episodes/series’)

    RE: Timelords being released; This would have consequences

    If timelords did return wouldn’t they kill the Doctor? Could they go back in time and stop him from locking them up or is that a fixed point?

    What if they are already dead? Now the Master is locked up with them he could have killed them all!

    What if the Doctor is able to free the Gallifreyans but keeps the Timelords locked away? He could just smuggle the children out a couple of the time 😉

    #21982
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @scatamonky I like your summing up. That makes sense to me.

    @danmartinuk has a new article on Buzzfeed – some great gifs and screengrabs, and  a few things I missed. (I’m still not convinced about definitely seeing Hurt regenerate into Eccleston tho)

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulaersly/greatest-easter-eggs-from-the-doctor-who-50th-anniver

     

    #21984
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @tardisblue And thank you for complimentary words. I’m afraid in many ways I’m not even out of primary school  re Dr Who (I’ve been there a long time though 🙂 )

     

    Argh! Just realised this post was meant to be On the Sofa! Any mods want to move it, feel free

    #21985
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Enjoyed the discussions on the nature of the Time War.

    I agree with @Thomick that it would have been great to see more of the strategizing in the Time Lord War Room, the chilling decisions to shift time here or there in order to resurrect and replay a certain battle amongst the “lesser” races. “The End of Time” and “The Night of the Doctor” made it clear on-screen in a way that the “The Day of the Doctor” did not that the Time Lords displayed a deeply callous sense of superiority over the course of the War. 

    As @bluesqueakpip says, Time Lord war-driven time-resurrections are the reason why Cass fears and despises the Mcgann Doctor so much.

    Now wouldn’t that make a good spin-off novel series set during the Time War – The Zombie Armies of Time ?  

    On the question of two time-streams and whether Gallifrey burned in one of them and not in the other, I would say that it is possible to walk away from “The Day of the Doctor” with a far more benign view of the Doctor and the Time Lords than the entirety of New Who previously allowed. 

    That’s not a good thing, in my book – the ret-conning of war crimes and genocide using a focus on the innocence of little patrician (Time Lord) children to do it?   

    It’s possible, but it’s not canonically consistent with “The End of Time”, in which we saw Gallifrey burning.

    Anyone who knows their Who, as Moffat surely does, knows that the Time Lords have never been benign. Their policy of non-interference, before the outbreak of the Time War, was often a source of frustration for the Doctor and their hierarchical and stuffy society (which seemed to have a servant class of some kind) made him run screaming for the hills.

    Hopefully, Time Lord menace and the Doctor’s ambivalence will be maintained and the “search for home” which might look so rosy now after the darkness of the Doctor’s journey since Ecclestone, will turn out to be deeply conflicted, particularly once he gets there!

    But regarding two time-streams, in the story-telling, as I’ve said previously, Moffat’s tenure has been littered with doubling and time-streams, from “Amy’s Choice” to “The Girl Who Waited”. Usually, in television narrative architecture, smaller stories are used to mirror or reflect the larger arc. 

    Did the conscience of the Moment always appear to Hurt Doctor as Bad-Wolf-Rose? Did it always happen the way we saw it?

    Well, not being capable of existing in fourteen dimensions at once like the TARDIS, time shifts are always going to hurt out human heads 🙂 

    I think it’s interesting that Eleven appeared not to remember the events from Ten’s perspective, which in one time-stream, he should have done, right?

    Eleven makes jokes about Ten snogging a Zygon as if it were a separate weird thing his earlier self had got up to all on his own. Sure, he’s been deliberately forgetting things (as previously established) thanks to war crimes guilt, but would you forget events in which you “saved the day” and learned you had “never” committed genocide?

    It’s also interesting that Moffat used the fez as the “gateway object” between the portals opened by The Moment. That immediately recalls the time-jumping of the Doctor in “The Big Hang” (in which the fez featured significantly). The Doctor reboots the universe and Amy remembers both time-streams afterwards; the one in which her parents disappeared when she was a kid and the one in which they didn’t. Both “really happened” from her and our perspective.

    #21990
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    Dammit Juniper Fish! Just when I thought my theory had some legs you go and remind me that we did see Gallifrey burning in “The End of Time”.

    I’m not the biggest fan of retconning. I think that’s why I’d be much happier to learn that Gallifrey never did burn. In terms of storytelling I’m always happy to believe whatever you tell me. I just hate it when a writer establishes something like “this character can fly” and then later has the guy running!

    What I’m trying to say is, once you’ve stated the rules, do not break them on a whim because it makes the story you want to tell easier!

    #21998
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Interview with the 3D consultant on DotD, talking through the technical processes and challenges of making the episode. Fascinating stuff.   Between DotD and Gravity (which I saw recently) I could become a fan of 3D film making (never, ever thought I’d say that!)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/technology/broadcast-technology/television/article/art20131126142109326%5D

     

    #21999
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Duality

    I agree with @juniperfish and others that to take away the Doctor’s guilt re committing genocide diminshes some of the myth set up in AG.  But is it not enough that he believes he did it?  And he would have done it, maybe did, without the Moment butting in. Even then his only solution was for all 3 incarnations to do it together (forgiveness for his own past deeds, but not redemption). It takes the humanising element of Clara to bring about the full solution. (She doesn’t know what it is but she has faith that if she pushes the Doctor that bit further, he will find it). In DotD he faced up to the fact that he was capable of such an act, albeit that it seemed the only choice at the time – the only alternative to Daleks overrunning the universe with no-one to stop them. Only by facing up to his previous guilt was he able to then find the solution, the alternative which offered hope.

    I don’t think that’s incompatable with there also being an aborted timeline where Gallifrey did indeed burn, and everything was timelocked, and our Doctor still has to live with that. But it should hurt less, now that with 400+ years more experience, he has found an alternative, a possibility of saving the children.  I think the people of Gallifrey are still frozen tho, hidden somewhere out of time – presumably until the Doctor finds them and does whatever magic, sorry, scientific process is needed to unfreeze them.

    #22001
    overunder @jamesunderscore

    @All – discussions of the Time War here have been very interesting so far. I must admit I have revised my initial feeling that the war, as depicted, was a bit too shooty in light of people’s comments here. The Daleks do love a bit of the old up-close-and-personal, so yeah.

    Actually, reading everyone’s comments has inspired me to write load of old cobblers which I am, nevertheless, quite pleased with :p

    #22003
    overunder @jamesunderscore

    @All – very much enjoying everyone’s thoughts on the time war. I watched the episode for the second time tonight and think I’ve changed my mind on my earlier reservations about the time war as shown being a bit too shooty compared to my own preconception.

    Actually, I got so inspired reading everyone’s thoughts at work that I wrote this load of old cobblers which I am, nevertheless, quite pleased with.

    Thinking about what’s in store for us in four weeks, I’m hoping (and I have been rigorously avoiding spoilers) that we will finally discover who has been building all those mock-tardis control rooms that keep popping up. I wondered if they may, in fact, be some kind of Gallifrey artifact that is reaching out to the Doctor from within the bubble universe?

    #22009
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @juniperfish @scaryb

    I think the duality has to be the key here. The Doctors time line has been cocked up in a way that pleases me a great deal.

    I think we anticipate the Trenzilore end point will be lost at Christmas, and become something that will no longer happen. Perhaps the key to that (and therefore a fresh perspective on this episode is totor consider that by saving Clara from the Time Streams (with its sudden appearance by DocHurt) that enough wriggle room was developed in the time stream for the Moment to forge that link to the future, and change the outcome.

    The other possibility is that by saving Clara (who suggested this was the end of her story in NoTD, this also changed the result of the TimeWar. If he had lost Clara in his timeline, she wouldn’t be there to convince her Doctor to seek an alternative? And perhaps it’s that act of retriving her that will lead to the outcome of Trenzilore changing?

    So for me, in the RTD period, Gallifrey burned. These latest events have simply altered it’s fate.

    But agree with all your points about the Time Lords natier nature though. I really should rename my blog Still Time Locked, and Still Loving it!

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