Death in Heaven

[BFINCH @bfinch]

He has blood on his hands, he has made decisions that are in the scheme of gray morality, but does that not make him a good man? When I mentioned romance it was in regard to his relationship to he and Clara. I felt she was originally swept up with 11, but put off by 12’s apperance. Over the course of their relationship they have had sweet moments and moments of strife, just like any friends or couple. My complaint is that whenever she was asked if the Doctor was to return to help or was a good man, she was indecisive. That character’s opinion specifically stood up for and championed 11. Can anyone argue that she has shown favorites between how she has dealt with 11 and 12?  Why does she take issue with 12 lying and not 11? I think it’s because she has a courtship relationship with 11 and a more serious more developed relationship with 12. Yes, in the end she did say how highly she viewed the Doctor, but one episode would vary from the next. I took it personally as a fan how 12 would look wounded or confused that he said something to offend her and how hard she was on him, compared to her realtionship with 11.  I think Clara loves the travel, loves the excitement, but would prefer to do so with 11. I think she is a 20 something that is shallow because when 11 looks the way he does and is smitten with her she embraces it, faults and all. With 12 it’s a different relationship. It’s based on more of a solid realtionship. Faults and all. Honestly, what was so interesting about Danny Pink in the begining to her, other then he was a handsome school teacher? Now, I know conflict makes for great character drama, I just again wanted to state I took offense to her negative view at times of theDoctor. I viewed him as a madman with a blue box, but still a good man. A flawed man,but still a good man. Good being the abscence of evil. Is he a good man? Yes. Even if he doesn’t think so. And I think any companion would say yes. Even Turlough and he often tried to kill him.

 

[Anonymous @]

“I think she is a 20 something that is shallow because when 11 looks the way he does and is smitten with her she embraces it, faults and all”

@bfinch is the Doctor smitten with her, though? I think he’s obsessed with finding out who Clara is & carrying the guilt of a survivor: she died for this man, not once but twice. He wants to work out why. Also, when he asked her to travel with him in Bells of St John, she laughed and said “is that how you get us in here? What makes you think I’ll come with you?” Embracing him? Nope.

Clara has done an awful lot for the Doctor – as I said earlier; by entering his time-stream – even River complained that Clara might be torn into pieces like confetti. I think we mustn’t lose sight of that. She was born, as a Claricle, and she died for one purpose only: to save him. Could we not entreat the Doctor to accept such a glorious sacrifice? When you say:

“I think Clara loves the travel, loves the excitement” you’re suggesting she’s shallow; a poor back packer, with not a penny of her own, travelling with a rich beneficent gentleman. But whilst this travel is exciting, it isn’t safe -I think Clara knows this better than anyone. Upon re-view, I see that Clara is ribbing the Doctor all the time: “of course, I have to laugh, you with your big old face” (in Flatline) and “have you met you?” Would you say this is ‘bad mouthing’? Or is it the gentle fun of two people very comfortable with each other? Here’s another:

“I am the Doctor. Mainly I chose the name because it makes me sound important” (Flatline). Ultimately, as @phaseshift has said, Clara didn’t defer when asked “am I a good man?” She answered yes -but not straightaway.

Surely @bfinch when she whispered into The Crack “his Name is the Doctor, it’s the only name you need to know”,  she understood fully the Doctor’s capacities. She wasn’t smitten with him there, she wasn’t acknowledging him as a lover, she was saying he was the saviour of worlds. Having spent time saving him, she would also accommodate his failures and the ‘stormy’ aspect of his personality: a man who, whilst not drenched in blood, caused others to die -Astrid, as you referenced, the loss of the best of Donna & her memories and so many more -cultures lost, indeed.

With Danny Pink? I think she was attracted to a really good looking chap! Why shouldn’t an attractive 27-yr old go for a Danny-type person? I think she saw him with the cadet boys and girls and liked him for that reason too? She hadn’t led a normal life for so long -this is another aspect which proves that travelling with the Dr isn’t like some magnificent vacation paid for by rich uncles. It’s bloody hard work -see Amy and Rory in The Hungry Earth, off to Rio and instead investigating a “big metal machine thing” and losing Amy to the ground in the first 20 minutes! Not fun: awful!

Is the relationship with Dan a problem? That she’s moved on with her own life whilst still seeing the Doctor and helping him? I don’t think for a minute that Clara is an assistant while the Doctor does the heavy lifting!  Without her, he might well be dead -and I don’t mean last season but this year where we’ve seen them run ‘here, there and everywhere’ – together, not with one person superior to the other: she’s his equal, virtually, so as to her natural criticism of him, it’s valid! It might be misogynistic to think otherwise, yes?

“When I mentioned romance it was in regard to his relationship to he and Clara” Nope!  You said we were romanticising them – as viewers: wanting them to be something they’re not. I’m sure that’s what you meant, but you’ve decided, afterwards, to change your meaning or reference points! No fair 🙂 Can I do that? (good natured ribbing!)

Kindest, puro

 

[Anonymous @]

@bfinch

“With 12 it’s a different relationship. It’s based on more of a solid realtionship. Faults and all.” Then you are saying that theirs is a good, natural and solid relationship between equals! So you agree it’s all a good thing, no?

With this: “Honestly, what was so interesting about Danny Pink in the begining to her, other then he was a handsome school teacher?” as I explained above, are you suggesting that Dan’s personality was unnecessary to the story? That we really didn’t need a romance in/out of the Tardis? I was unsure of that too: ‘Oh no, another Amy and Rory we don’t need’ but I was pleasantly surprised.

With the former it was two people -the girl who waited and the boy who watched (for 2000 years). Here we have a character who lies to each bloke to protect her particular choices -so she doesn’t have to defend either choice or man to the other. This lying annoyed me. Perhaps she chose this approach because she didn’t quite know how, in this incarnation, he’d take it!  In the end the Doctor liked PE, pretty well! So, she made a few mistakes. I haven’t met anyone who hasn’t: Rose fibbed her head off and Martha had her share of problems.

[lisa @lisa]

@purofilion sorry cause that last post was lots of thoughts not well connected
So basically Dalek Caan got Davros out of the time lock
Davros might have then helped Nissy out of time lock knowing how to from Dalek Caan
then Davros may be planning a great revenge deception like Dalek Caan did
and lastly Dalek Caan had a prison ship and Missy mentioned a prison camp and the
netersphere felt somewhat like a prison camp to me
that’s pretty much what I got just now

[lisa @lisa]

@purfilion -lol but wait there’s more – they also had a flashback to dalek caan in this episode!
why that particular flashback? It’s feeling to me like we are heading for lots more great and
grand deceptions

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@purofilion    To your very eloquent defense of Clara, I would add that she also admitted that she found the notion of boring Danny who was totally focused on getting the kids to safety extremely attractive! So she was doing that fairly natural thing of finding a nurturing, responsible man attractive. Good for her.  🙂

[stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun]

@mudlark Loved your insight on the cybermen in the mausoleum. I didn’t pick that up but it totally makes sense. You also mentioned something about the second shower of seeded rain. I thought Missy said that was going to kill the living humans and turn them into cybermen also so the Doctor would have a whole planet of cybermen army. That was why it was so important Danny stop the second rain. He literally saved the whole planet. Also considering that Missy must know how the Doctor feels about Earth and about humans her plan to wipe out the competition so to speak fits right in with what you were saying about her need of an equal to appreciate her. And her being a psychopath she probably didn’t consider that the Doctor’s care for people would stop him from accepting what she probably considered the perfect gift.

 

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus yes, true she did say that: and in fact most women would (from primitive impulses to modern day wishes) exhibit such ‘urges’. Now @mudlark might correct me (correctly) on the use of the word primitive -I mean early modern homo sapiens who would look for …what in a man? The ability to defend? I assume nurturing children was left solely to female-kind.

Well, eer, it wasn’t eloquent: I couldn’t write what I wanted to: so it was rambling and relentless. Rather typical I’m afraid, these days, as memory seems to leave me!

@lisa yes, it was! He was referenced in a flash back -in fact, there were many flashbacks in this season -some longer and larger, more momentous than others, I think. So Davros is avenging the actions of Dalek Caan? Possibly, I haven’t expressed it correctly but is that the idea behind the flashback do you think? Or the use of Dr Chang’s name -or his ‘predecessor’s office, at least?

[stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun]

@purofilion @bfinch Love the debate, you both make good points. Just wanted to point out one thing. 12 also changed the parameters of his relationship with Clara. Whereas we see 11 perfectly willing to pose as her boyfriend to her family at Christmas, 12 soon tells her “I’m not your boyfriend”. So from the Doctor’s perspective what changed? We have established that from Clara’s perspective he goes from young looking to older looking, but that wasn’t really the only thing that changed. The Doctor spent hundreds of years on Trenzalor too. He regenerated. Who he was changed just as much as how he looked. I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s fair to put everything on Clara. I think they both contributed to the change in their relationship.

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@lisa @purofilion -lol but wait there’s more – they also had a flashback to dalek caan in this episode!
why that particular flashback? It’s feeling to me like we are heading for lots more great and
grand deceptions

Wasn’t that a flashback to Rusty from Into the Dalek?

[Anonymous @]

@stormintheheartofthesun yes I agree, it’s complicated. I remember Robin and the Doctor arguing and Clara being fed up. The guard decided she was the most sensible person for the sheriff to interrogate. Later, the Doctor is embarrassed. I think his defensive attitude comes from a new awareness about himself. He forgot a lot too -not recalling the ship’s parts and that entire story in Deep Breath evokes his confusion and a memory unsustainable, tickling him, just out of reach. He’s easily provoked as a result.

Clara’s attempt to find a boyfriend and reconcile her feelings for the new Doctor also adds to her defensiveness when the Doctor complains about her heels, her height, her hair: “have you had a wash, yet?”; “Why are you wearing those shoes? Are you needing to put up a shelf? A date with a shelf. It’s not going to change your height”; “you missed a bit when you put on your makeup” (in regards to Danny probably not calling her -don’t hold out hope -you’ve taken your makeup off anyway!” I’ve certainly paraphrased the parts about Clara’s height. Being a person of that height, it’s no surprise that those comments stick in my memory -perhaps I’m concentrating overly on them!

In the end, Danny is fearless and meets the Doctor’s hopes in The Caretaker that he be ‘good enough’ for her – well, beyond death he was fulfilling his promise of love. And that love was action. Clara had done her part for the Doctor, stepping into his timestream following her words of love with action. Only action can provide that proof.

[Anonymous @]

@badwulf  oops, you’re right. @lisa remember the eyestalk -not any dalek but Rusty!

[Whisht @whisht]

Hi @bfinch – just wanted to say that I have some sympathies with what you’re saying.
That basically Clara and 11 had a flirtatious relationship (at times) but that 12 put an end to that (indeed he realised that it was time to stop that).
So – Clara will feel put out. She may even feel ‘betrayed’ to some extent (in a ‘where is my best mate that I kinda fancied?’ sort of way).

And 12’s behaviour is very different – he’s confused, he’s rude and it takes Clara quite a while to see that he’s essentially the same person.
But does that mean she’s a bad person? Not really in my opinion. “Shallow”? I was going to say “No more than any 20-something” but I now think that that would be unfair on people in their 20’s!
She was having fun with an attractive guy who was returning her flirtations in a completely ‘safe’ way (ie he’d never do anything about it). That changed at Trenzalore where her emotions were put through the wringer and then changed again in the regeneration.

But that’s just my opinion – and I agree with you in that it has made for great drama (whether the character is likeable or not).

btw – have you been to the Memories thread yet as I’ve just been back over there and have read some fabulous memories of the show and its always interesting how people have come across it!

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@arbutus

If I knew her in real life, I would probably be frequently frustrated and want to give her a good shake sometimes!

Which is pretty much the worst thing you can do with an addict 😉

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@bfinch

My complaint is that whenever she was asked if the Doctor was to return to help or was a good man, she was indecisive.

No, she is precise – she eschews the glib and tries to give a meaningful answer. And that is why he is so ready to forgive her total betrayal.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@stormintheheartofthesun

  I thought Missy said that was going to kill the living humans and turn them into cybermen

You are right, and my memory was at fault.  I have just watched that bit again and, although it wasn’t spelled out explicitly, the implications of her words were pretty clear – the rain would fall again and everyone on earth would die.

In either event, the reanimation of more of the dead as cybermen or the conversion of everyone living, it was necessary to destroy the clouds.

As a psychopath she quite possibly doesn’t have any real insight at all into the way the Doctor thinks or feels, or the way he sees other people.  She seems to be convinced that, at bottom, he is no different from her if only he would admit it, and much of her motivation here is to force him into that admission; an admission which would, in a way, validate her own existence.

[lisa @lisa]

@badwulf and @purofilion Yes it’s Rusty the ‘good’ Dalek. He’s still out there – wouldn’t that be an
really interesting conflict between a good Dalek and Dr. Skarosa/Cyberman ? I for 1 would like to
see how that would shake out — I need to find more clues cause love investigating the mystery – if
anyone comes up with anything about this chime in !!!!

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@pedant    Well, yes. I have a couple of people in my life whom I would sometimes like to shake. Of course, what I really do is give advice when they ask it and support at other times. Who knows how helpful that really is, but mostly people can only help themselves in the end. I’m guessing from his actions that this would have been Danny’s view as well.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@purofilion wrote:   Our new Dr isn’t that interested in acceptance -but that’s surface only, I believe
@stormintheheartofthesun wrote: 12 also changed the parameters of his relationship with Clara.

I think that what changed him was the events of Day of the Doctor. I think that he very much wants to be accepted by Clara, and is less concerned about anyone else’s acceptance. He has been evolving, I believe, throughout the AG series. My “theory of evolution” for the Doctor’s recent incarnations goes thus:

Nine, the post Time War Doctor, is last of his people, alone in the universe, very arrogant. He feels superior to humans and asks nothing of them except to be left alone (although this starts to soften almost immediately when he invites Rose into the TARDIS). Ten has learned some humility and has begun to feel lonely. He wants to be a real boy: he falls in love, embraces earth culture. But, of course, he can’t really love a human as they would want to be loved, forever, because it can never be forever for him. He can’t become human, he can only be what he is. So Eleven stops trying blend in or “pass”. Instead, he builds himself a family… Amy, Rory, River, then Vastra, Strax, and Jenny. And Clara. And then he learns that he isn’t really alone in the multiverse, and his people give him a new regeneration cycle.

Twelve doesn’t need humans anymore. He has his sense of superiority back. But he looks back over his experiences in and since the Time War, and wonders what kind of a man he has become. Perhaps he is thinking about the Time Lords and all that he once disliked about them, because there is still the issue of whether it is safe to let them return. He needs Clara as an anchor, because he needs someone who believes in him as he finds his way. He tells her that he’s not a hero, but he does keep trying to act like one! Little “Doctor” moments burst out of him in several of the episodes. It takes Missy to finally show him that he is who he has always been, the Doctor, who travels the universe to learn, to experience, to help where he can: not a hero, not a Time Lord bystander, but an idiot with a box.

So in a sense, he really isn’t the Doctor that Clara first met. Because she met the one that was still trying to replace his lost people, who was trying to be a hero to make up for the destruction of Gallifrey. No wonder she has felt so confused for so long. We assume that because as Eleven’s companion, she met a couple of previous incarnations (I don’t count her Claricle experiences because it’s made clear that she doesn’t really remember them), that she really understands in her heart that Twelve is the same man as Eleven. But I don’t think that is so easy to grasp. The War Doctor and Ten must have felt like different men to her; they do to me! The current Doctor still depends on her, but in an unarticulated way that must not always be clear to her.

Apologies for the long ramble. I love this stuff! And my thesis statement: I believe that the Doctor will be less dependent on his next companion. Perhaps more of a teacher instead?

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@arbutus – brilliant!

[Whisht @whisht]

@arbutus – what Cath Annabel said!!

🙂

[lisa @lisa]

@Arbutus- That was a very impressive breakdown of the Doctor’s different incarnations and
I think that you definitely nailed it !

[Spider @spider]

@arbutus  absolutely second, third and fourth what others have said. Spot on.

@lisa The quote “I couldn’t agree with you less”, nope not politician or a comedian. Was Avon from Blake’s 7 in the episode The Web. 🙂  That line always comes to mind when I read nonsense that trolls like to spout.

But since you were the only one to bite you win the prize anyway! … your own private army of Cybermen to conquer the Earth and beyond. Happy Birthday ms President, Enjoy!  XD

(\(\;;/)/)

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@arbutus – what you said 😉

[lisa @lisa]

@spider LOL ! I must humbly not accept your magnanimous offer as the cost of storing such an army
at the local public storage center would be too expensive for my budget ! But I do appreciate your
kind gesture and thanks 🙂
[Btw – I am familiar with Blakes 7 and who the character Avon was but only in a sort of marginal way]

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@arbutus A round of applause from the cheap seats! 😀

[nerys @nerys]

@arbutus Bravo! I agree completely.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

You are all terribly nice!    🙂    I actually find it quite fascinating that the continuity works so well, given two showrunners with very different styles, and four actors, each bringing his own unique take to the character. Serendipity, or a deeper truth?

@lisa    I’m sure that the army must come with some Time Lord Tech for storage purposes?

[Spider @spider]

@lisa and @arbutus  yes. Army storage is available in the Nethersphere. Just sent a wee note to SEB and he’ll sort you out.

OOPS! I may have revealed too much 😮

(\(\;;/)/)

[lisa @lisa]

@Sider and @arbutus OH WOW! jumping up and down and squee-ing!!! So who shall I invade first?? hm…

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@arbutus and indeed @all

I think the key has been that both RTD and Moff have been conspicuously respectful of established canon, without ever allowing themselves to be bound by it.

That, I think is why we won’t see Gallifrey back any time soon – other than the occasional glimpse – because RTD’s great idea was to sweep away all of the 80s cruft. It had got sucked into the terrible fantasy habit of world building which got in the way of storytelling. Sweeping it away allowed the focus to return to The Doctor, rather than the Time Lords.

Moff had to go back to Gallifrey for the 50th – of course he did – but I suspect a lot of people expected a very Time Lord-y origin story, since they are all the fad these days. It was very smart indeed to sidestep that. What we got was a much more interesting story with consequences that @arbutus outlined so well.

 

[lisa @lisa]

oops meant @spider [are you sure you want to give an army to me? I have some strange notions about stuff]

[Spider @spider]

@lisa don’t worry, I’ve only given you PART of an army, I’ve got the rest and I assure you my notions are not entirely sane 😉  wah hah hah hah etc.

(\(|;;/)/)

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus wonderful. I really liked that analysis (no rambling at all: generally, when writin’ anything I suffer from DMD: Decision Making Disorder) and I’m reminded of Paradise Lost: “Yet well if here would end the misery and I deserved it, I would bear my own Deservings” I’m impressed by this for both the 10th and the 11th Doctor.

@pedant ‘world building’. I think this comes from the fantasy creation of worlds in game-land? Is that right?  Errr, I can hear my poor old Dad, sayin’ around now “Puro, are you medically stupid?” But I recall you mentioned ‘world building’ in another post a year ago (I know, I remember some things: yesterday, not so much) which was related to the concept of “show don’t tell”.. Now, when I Google it, I find some dude who has a grand plan for creating a fantasy show/land with a band of critters and fictional continents and islands? Could you enlighten me, if you have a brief moment? I’m thinking that ‘world building’ has a metaphoric development to it, also?

Kindest, purofilion

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Not sure if anyone’s posted this but I think those Mondas-style retro Cybermen would have been brilliant…

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2014-11-14/behind-the-scenes-doctor-who-footage-includes-incredible-retro-cybermen

[PaperMoon @papermoon]

@arbutus – weird, I was thinking along similar lines about how the War Doctor links 9, 10 and 11, which then leads us to 12.

9 – post-war – the tough northerner in minimalist attire – gone are flamboyant scarves, jackets, vests, bits of celery, in place is a black leather jacket and a crew cut. He’s dispensed with the unnecessary. I also found him more openly cynical. This isn’t the same Doctor we knew from before. He’s destroyed his own people and he’s covered how he feels with a tough exterior.  But he is also be the one who finds a resolution in which everybody lives – he’s still our Doctor. I agree that he starts to soften with Rose.

10 – he’s starting to come to terms with what has happened. He can’t change what he’s done to Gallifrey, but he can do what he can to protect Earth and, by gosh, he’s going to do it ‘This planet IS protected!’, but then, he’s long had a soft spot for us. He falls in love, more than once. Ok, one time he had forgotten he was the Doctor, but perhaps that was the point – he no longer was the Doctor (in a sense), so he had forgotten all that had happened and could be open for love. But you also see the cracks in the tough exterior starting to appear in other ways. This is something Donna points out to him, he needs someone keep him in check. We saw the consequences of him being alone in ‘The Waters of Mars’. However, a touch of whimsy came back with this Doctor’s outfit – sandshoes and a suit, big coat, no more crew cut.

11 – an old man in a young body. There’s always an underlying sadness and guilt to this Doctor, I think. It’s something he hides by being flamboyant with his gestures and by thinking out loud, but you see it at times. Especially when one of his friends is angry with him, like when Rory is angry with him over Amy – he accuses the Doctor of making people want to impress him and this puts them in danger, or Amelia Pond – the girl who waited, once as a child and later in the episode ‘The Girl Who Waited’. I hadn’t thought about him building a new family, but I totally agree. Which makes the pain he feels when they are angry with him even sadder for me. He wants to be the ‘good guy’ again (in his own head and to the universe). I think the Christmas specials ‘A Christmas Carol’ and ‘The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe’, show this side, they’re more whimsical and he gets to bring a bit of Christmas joy to people’s lives. He needs River in his life, someone who loves him unconditionally, but is also willing to tell him a few home truths. It is this Doctor who realizes he has become too big, so he starts erasing himself from history. Then there’s 300 years (?) on Trenzalore, that’s a lot of time to think.  In ‘The Day of the Doctor’ he gets the opportunity to bring about a different ending to before – Gallifrey is still out there somewhere. As I seem to have decided what the Doctor wears is a reflection of the regeneration, I will say that this Doctor, by trying on different hats – fez, Stetson, – is him still trying to find himself.

12 – he reminds me of earlier Doctors – pre-war. Perhaps this Doctor has reconciled with himself, and, whilst not being the same man as before (how could he be?), has accepted himself more? I’m hesitant here because, really, this Doctor’s story is still unfolding, so I think it’s still open as to who he will become. But, he’s still not sure if he is a good man. I have nothing to offer you on clothing for this Doctor this time, sorry, no idea as to why he changes clothes from a rather dashing coat to the thing with blobs on it.

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

‘world building’. I think this comes from the fantasy creation of worlds in game-land?

Nah, gaming’s a fairly late comer. The problem is that Lord of the Rings would have been about two-thirds the length if Tolkien had only let the reader imagine the sodding world a bit. And nearly all fantasy writers got sucked into the same thing.

Beware any book that has a map at the front!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@pedant – in terms of length, Lord of the Rings is a minnow swimming next to the mighty whales that are George R. R. Martin and Robert Jordan. 😈

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus

TY for expanding on your theory more..  Your theory is brilliant as you probably know by all the people who love it! 🙂

I always like your timey-wimey evolution posts and theory.  It really holds together and I believe it predicted 12’s personality spot on. He is mostly serious (he is very funny, but not intentionally).  12 still has feelings but he doesn’t show them very much or not on perpose – i.e. Listen fear, Flatline happy dance, Dark Water love – these feelings seem to be spontaneous reactions to the situations that 12 just couldn’t hold in.  12 doesn’t have uncontrollable feelings like 11, but still has very strong feelings that become uncontrollable at times. 

Is 11 “needing a family” new to your theory?  I think you are right again and I agree that’s sort of a personality trait too. I agree that 12 seems to have lost that part of his personality now, but maybe it is just below the surface, like his feelings.  If the right situations arise then he might need some family support still, but just for a short time.

12’s personality reminds me mostly of Pertwee (3), but I haven’t seen enough 4-7 yet to be sure and the look of their clothes has a lot to do with that too. 12 and 3 both look a bit like magicians to me (but I like that), and they are very serious scientists/inventors. For example, 3 was always trying to repair broken parts of the Tardis and had a supped-up Betsy that he made, and now 12 makes devices like the Toodis. 12 also dove out of an air plane like James Bond, which I definitely can see 3 doing too (and they both use Venusian Aikido 🙂 ). I think there are probably pieces of other Doctors in 12’s personality, but there’s a lot of 3. Missy has to come back, because 12 has to have a great Master just like 3 had, but I hope it is not every episode.

(@Lisa – I like your theory, the clothes are good clues to figure out the personality).  

@drben – I recommend 3’s story The Time Monster. It is the closest thing to NuWho that I’ve seen in BG so far. It has the most head-explodey-timey-wimey-Timenobabble ever.  It is very funny, the story is awesome, the monster is cool, and the Master is brilliant so it’s definitely one of my favorite episodes ever now.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@bluesqueakpip

Oh God, yes.

Dear George,

Look, we know it’s going end in an epic battle between Dragon Queen and the Ice Walkers, probably with Little Stabby Girl and Shortround doing something ever so clever.

So

Get

On

With

It

Will

You?

Ta.

Yours etc

 

 

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@pedant It’s not really on topic and I’m not starting an argument, just wanted to point out the opposing view as it’s a decent read by Neil Gaiman. I’m guessing you’re probably aware of this, but just in case not:
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

I know you’re not coming from a sense of entitlement, more a sense of boredom at the length of things. But just thought you might enjoy the read.

And for a modern, pink-haired YouTube take:

[Anonymous @]

Christ  @craig  I love Australia now. God I love it. I love it because we don’t have pink haired, tattooed twits with a HORRIBLE  high pitched twangy accent with  poor grammar* and ineloquent gestures “you’re hurting yourself peoples”. I’ll say. “In conclusion”, I will add along with Pinked Haired Girl “respect your artists”, as she makes a very fair and decent point. However, dudette, the accent and pitch: ‘tone it down a bit, love’.

Kindest, arsonofilion

*we probably have other really embarrassing ‘stretched out long flat vowels and over tanned blonde hair thong wearers’ instead

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@craig

Oh yeah – I’m absolutely not talking about the length of time it takes to write. 10 years for 50 outstanding pages would be perfect!

It’s the surplus words. The days when Dickens was paid by the word and boy did it show should be long gone.

Indeed Gaiman is an excellent exemplar of nothing wasted. American Gods is rich, complex and deep with nary a wasted word. Love it.

(Last bit of off-topicness: Many moons ago I was reading Red Mars, a multiple award winning novel by Kim Stanley Robinson coming in a 600 pages. I was really looking forward to it, but by about page 280 I thought “If I have to read through another buggy ride across the Martian tundra I’m putting this book down and never picking it up again”. Twenty pages later there I was on the Martian. Sodding. Tundra. Somewhere, I think I may still have it, bookmark in place.)

[lisa @lisa]

Tonight we decided to re watch TC and at the end Danny tell Clara she need to “promise’ to tell him if the Doctor ever pushes her to far. Then at the end of this episode the Doctor brings up the fact that love is a “promise’. I don’t know if this promise thing is supposed to be significant but I just thought I’d give
it a mention because It seems to me that Danny and Clara still haven’t broken this promise to each other.
Plus this promise idea seemed to get some emphasizing both times— but its probably a nit picky thing

[Anonymous @]

@lisa yes, I know!! I realise this and have (when not screaming tired) been pondering the same issue. I just noticed something -well on first watch, but Capaldi for some reason says “emotion” in a Welsh accent at the end of Death In Heaven – “love is not an emotion, it’s a promise”. I know it like I know my name!  Just give that a another watch -right at the end. I have no idea, maybe he was around a lot of Welsh people -How do you say …Welsh, like the Scots, the Scottish? Is it just ‘Welsh’?  Anyway, I know I’m not imagining things about the accent xcept it doesn’t mean anything..

Kindest, puro.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

*cough* Filmed in Cardiff *cough*

(It sound more like a mockery of “lifestyle guru”/ gushy heal-yourself nonsense speak to me.

[Davros @davros]

Surprising and impressive pair of episodes. I would not have expected any of that, basically. (Though I suppose we had already guessed the Master thing).

Shame to see the last of Danny but I am glad they didn’t hold back on the tragedy.

 

BTW I wish they would not give so much away in the previews during the closing credits: in the Forests of the Night credits they showed cybermen, and I would prefer to have been surprised as I had studiously avoided spoilers.

 

 

 

 

[Davros @davros]

Oh yeah, and the symbol for3W reminded me of a representation of a pocket universe…

[Anonymous @]

@pedant yep, I said  Wales, innit?

[lisa @lisa]

I have the Who marathon on in the back round while trying to get my work done [not been easy
but helps me getting thru all my paperwork]
The episode “Girl who Waited’ is on- Amy says “3 words – what about Rory’– so there is that 3
words device SM likes way back when. So I think 3W will definitely evolve into something else
again in some future episode

[Author]

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