Death in Heaven

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  • #35294

    @arbutus

    I guess I’m just saying, please don’t lump me in with the ARSE’s

    Nobody is, and I certainly wouldn’t want you to get that impression. It’s the difference between seeing Osgoods murder as hard (tough/ brutal/ banal) and WORST EVAH INSULT TO TEH FANZ.

    #35295
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @drben

    How does Clara know so much about the Doctor? Yes, they’re close, but the Doctor has never said a thing about four wives, and is always reticent to talk about his past.

    Clara’s met Wife No. 2 (River), Wife No. 4 (Queen Elizabeth I – Clara threw confetti) and may well have been told about Wife No. 3 as a funny story during the Smith Doctor’s incarnation. The Smith Doctor was very prone to telling funny stories about himself.

    Wife No. 1 and the children and grandchildren could be residual Claricle memories; she doesn’t say she can’t remember, just that she ‘sort of’ remembers. Gallifreyan!Claricle met both the First Doctor and Susan (very briefly). While the Doctor is reticent, a conversation starting with ‘Who was that girl with you when you stole the TARDIS?’ would probably result in the ‘missing, presumed dead’ explanation.

    @nerys

    Did anyone notice that during Clara’s “doctor” impersonation, Jenna Coleman’s delivery seemed eerily close to David Tennant’s?

    Yes. Strangely, she also sounded incredibly like David Tennant in her very first appearance; Asylum of the Daleks.

    Given the amount of detail that was on Cyber-file about her, about the only bonkers theory left is that she was adopted – and no-one, including her adoptive parents, knows that. [The little lad in Night Terrors was in that situation.]

    Otherwise, she’s simply the ordinary human girl that everyone has always insisted she is.

    They do keep insisting on it, don’t they? 👿

    #35296
    lisa @lisa

    @ DrBen and all- Regarding your comments about the series being wonderful and painful may I suggest
    that is exactly why it is such great TV ! I have read some of the comments elsewhere about this
    season and I am astounded how many have disliked it- some intensely ! I think because it isn’t
    the old school Doctor Who anymore. Also people tend to be risk adverse and SM has really taken
    some extreme risks. But I have always seen the show as pushing the risk barrier. SM has evolved it
    into something that is really different and is also totally his new-Who!
    Some folks thought SM’s Who was sub-par or just lacking or it wasn’t what they tuned in for.
    I have been reflecting just to take for an example of how all the villains have changed.
    Giving cybermen the ability to reason apart from the collective [although technically that
    isn’t really new since it occurred once in the Canary wharf episode] and of course there is
    Missy and the good Dalek and the lying liars and so on- its all different now but in really
    amazingly creatively realistically constructed ways
    SO I agree with you to some extent that I guess many folks feel that they are being too challenged
    by the realism of this re-boot when its not supposed to be so serious if its a scifi fantasy show.
    I think it can be both

    #35297
    soundworld @soundworld

    I watched the 2 episodes in the last few days.  It was personally upsetting and hard to watch as a close family member passed away just before the first epipsode, with the burial just before the second.  If I’d known in advance, I probably would not have watched these ones just yet.  I’m glad to have read through the forum though, as your thoughts have helped see some things (in Dr Who that is) from a different angle.

    This series really has been a fairy tale / spiritual journey (Thank you @arbutus who mentioned this above, I like the way you expressed this), and I feel I need some time in a darkened room to see the wider picture.  The currently open bottle of whisky will help 🙂  (A dear departed friend used to ask ‘what’s your favourite malt?  Answer – The one thats open’).

    Donna’s fate really stung, because it seemed so unfair and against the rules to deprive somebody of all the growth they had gone through.  I admit I never liked Danny’s character,  but on reflection he had a cohesive story, and he has found redemption.  I don’t think he should be brought back, although I’m sure his DNA will create Orson ‘OurSon’ eventually.  I’m deliberately ambiguous here – I’ve no idea as to how this will happen, I feel Clara being pregnant is too easy!

    Some fantastic humour though, and great moments.  I would never agree that the story was a step too far, just personally hard at the moment.  I’m holding on to the thought that Osgood was Zygon-Osgood (or that Zygon-Osgood will take her place) – but it was still a brutal shocking act.

    I’m sure that Missy has been teleported to safety – as was demonstrated in the Karabraxos Heist.

    @badwulf yes that got me too – maybe there’s a perception filter on tardis arrival/departure so people ignore it.  Or a ‘Somebody Elses Problem Field’.  (HHGtTG) ?

    I need a signing-off phrase!

    #35298

    @lisa

    I have read some of the comments elsewhere about this season and I am astounded how many have disliked it- some intensely

    If you look at the Guardian blog, it is not much more than a dozen individuals who swarm it after each episode and very atypical. The thing with relentless negativity is that positivity just wanders off and finds somewhere more accommodating. This of course given an entirely false imbalance to place like the Guardian.

    Consider the sheer percentage of the posts on the Gruan that are made by a single poster: NeedsToBeSaid (formerly Truckles (formerly Alexander)).

    #35299

    Oh, and on a random thought note: It might actually be more interesting for Osgood to be dead, but Zygon!Osgood to end up as a companion.

    #35300
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – I was thinking that too, though from a slightly different perspective. It would be more fun for Ingrid Oliver to be playing Zygon!Osgood.

    On Clara: at least we now know why the TARDIS never liked her. The TARDIS knew who’d selected her as the Doctor’s Companion.

    #35301
    lisa @lisa

    @IAMNotAFishTAmAFreeMan = I peaked at the Guardian, whoviannet and some YT reviews as I
    got very curious after having seen a few postings here 🙂

    @bluesqueakpip – Of course!! the Tardis totally knew who WitS was! wow on that !

    #35302
    Anonymous @

    @pedant   @drben   @blenkinsopthebrave

    <span style=”font-family: Thread-000002a4-Id-00000011;”>Something deep about that story and the people in it, but also about storytelling. I think that may be why I am so adamant about the “toll” being essential. But it is tough and deep, not in a S5 metaphorical way (as unutterably wonderful as that was), but direct and real. Someone we expected to get to spend time with, to get to know….isn’t</span> any more.

    “I thoroughly agree, which I think is why I’m having such a difficult time with this one”

    I really like the way others above have described this last episode.

    I found it bleak and in the end, surprisingly ‘boring’. Not in the way that a troll (or child) would say it but, in reference to Clara’s statement about Danny’s death, it was stark and raw. Unlike other season finales, this lacked the optimistic undercurrent and wacky timey whimey fall backs which helped to solve the most pressing of difficulties: usually something as grievous as the end of time or the re-booting of the universe!

    I felt dejected and bilious and I wanted to maintain the illusion that the episodes Robots of Sherwood and Kill the Moon were not completely straightforward but matched some as yet unseen involvement created either for, or with, (or for that matter, without) the Doctor’s  knowledge. I met this episode and its end with a kind of wilful blindness. Like a child reading a favourite fairy tale (and not the grim kind), I hoped the characters would be reunited comfortably, and, with unflagging optimism, reveal the necessity of practising a particular dissimulation in the matter of a sparkly shirt, scribbles on a blackboard or the significant allusion to Clara’s wide face -evidenced in three mirrors and the Doctor’s and Courtney’s reference to this – at one point highlighted during Dan’s and Clara’s first date at the restaurant Clara begged Danny to describe in the penultimate episode. In other words, the confused and faulty orchestrated variations and counterpoint of lies would have been met head on like a roaring train. But that didn’t happen for me.

    Nonetheless, or perhaps because of the unexpected ending, I loved this episode and I have re-watched the marvellous kiss the Doctor gave Missy before his spectacular renunciation (almost) of the good man motif. His spine straightened, his jacket once metaphorically uncomfortable or borrowed seems to dispel its wrinkles as he steps backwards with total confidence. Even his phrasing, once a little laboured and stuttering, is rhythmic and lose in delivery. But then we have the oft repeated ‘fibettes’ and lies: the episodes, until the last two, gave me a sense of the magical; and every look, scene and character was imbued with a symbolism, premonition or omen so that I felt on the brink of a wonderful discovery where everything united and what was once a blur is now distinct and deliberate. I left without that. But I was given reality instead: not magic, or a web of interconnections subsumed into sly cleverness but something honest, very sad and awfully genuine.

    @arbutus I understand the loss of Osgood and I don’t like it much 🙁

    It was a totally different ending for what, in my heart, I had hoped. But real life is like that and maybe Moffat showed me that people in our lives don’t always reveal themselves by degrees of benevolent providence, but by simple preoccupations, impeded by personal history and lies which knit themselves for protection and act as a valued sacrifice for that of another. Interesting that as I’m typing this imperfect rendering of how Season 8 made me feel, the Governor General, parliamentarians, the defence force and old soldiers are gathering solemnly at the Stone of Remembrance. A stark drum beats an allegory.

    Kindest,

    puro.

    #35303
    Anonymous @

    mind you, even though I feel as if something was missing/indefinable, having been reminded by @bluesqueakpip of the significance of Orson, the toy soldier and the Doctor’s dream in Listen, I can see that the wonderful interconnections were present-  it’s just that my own questions and answers floundered about in the bottom of my Brisbane-made aluminium boat-full of leaks. Also, I don’t have enough hands or even toes and fingers to explain away some of the titbits which I felt needed some answers. But I am speaking only for myself and any flaws or indeed anything inexplicable is as a result of my own (confused) interpretations.

    @pedant also mentions how this episode isn’t quite ‘the end’ -and Santa (or St Nicholas in East European culture who visits on December 6) surely hints at that  – a quiet comfort.

    #35304
    lisa @lisa

    So a few extra random thoughts —
    – Anyone think that St Nick might turn out to be a Time lord ?
    – I’d love to see Michele Gomez show up on Sherlock as anything
    – Looked up the coordinates that Missy gave the Doc as a possible significant date in history and I came
    up with the day that the US Congress gave the President war powers for the Iraq invasion which is what
    Kate exactly told the Doctor that the planet Earth had given to him -that seems a bit odd to me

    #35305

    A final random thought, alluded to way upthread but worth reiterating in the light of discussion.

    The realness of the loss, the meaningfulness must be seen through the lens of The Soldiers Promise.

    Empty loss, fake loss would have been frankly insulting on this, of all, weekends.

    (Random coincidental trivia: this weekend gone, in 1942, saw Axis forces break and then get routed at the conclusion of the Battle of El Alamein. What Churchill called The End of the Beginning.)

    #35306
    NorCalTARDIS @norcaltardis

    Hiya

     

    First time caller here 🙂  Watching Dr Who for about a year but binge watched all of 9, 10 and 11.

     

    I’ve been back and forth on Danny and Clara all season but DIH really sealed the deal, I like them (for now).  One theory about Danny; some how he is Orson Pink. If you go back to listen there’s a bunch of clues.  When he joins the episode about mid way through he and clara aren’t alone until they get  back to the space station and the doctor tells Orson to put his stuff in the tardis. Up until that point Clara treats him very much as a stranger and is put off.  Clara follows him in and they are alone and have the conversation about his grandparents–he corrects himself “great grand parents” then they touch hands and look at each other.  After that they cut straight to Clara and the Dr. So how did that whole conversation with orson go when they looked in to each other’s eyes in a way that was not very grandmother-grandsonish? Moreover after that scene Clara starts treating him more like Danny.  They interact the same way Danny and Clara do.  I feel like Danny was downloaded or saved.  I think it would be nice to see them travel with the Doctor as a couple if Danny can change his attitude about the Doctor. Or maybe he’s an alternate danny that doesn’t have baggage.  Either way if you go back to listen and watch with this in mind i think it puts a new spin on orson.

    #35307
    Anonymous @

    @pedant absolutely. The loss had to be significant enough to instil meaning. There is futility in loss -or else we perceive that to be the case. The question is often asked: isn’t one life equal to and the same as another? In the movies of today, that isn’t the case – we are rootin’ for one character to be alive not really minding that another isn’t.

    @norcaltardis  welcome!

    #35308
    NorCalTARDIS @norcaltardis

    Thanks!

     

    Also still getting the hang of things; meant to add that Clara also tells orson after their chat and before she goes out to meet the doctor (who she thinks will be rupert) “it’s on trust me you don’t want to meet yourself. It’s really Embarassing”

     

    anywho 🙂

    #35309
    Anonymous @

    @spider So I just have to accept it is some sort of futuristic alien technology thing that UNIT happen to have to somehow allow then to see underground from the air … somehow.

    Nope. Not getting it! 😉

    LOL, Thx Spider at least you are trying. I hope DW avoids stories with sensors and spiders, for a while.

    @drben – Your post is very good. I really see your point about how sad DiH could be or was. I am cheating and thinking ahead, Doctor Who will save the day in the end I’m hoping (if not I am really going to be balling my eyes out! That’s not fun to me, and DW has always been fun even when it’s sad). @pedant’s Whedon rule is right, I’m so glad Santa showed up at the end. 🙂

    @brewski – haha, At first, I thought he said “We don’t want Americans bombing (instead of bobbing) all over the place – which would have been worse I think? XD

    It just seemed like the usual cracks 12 gives to just about everyone. (PE, Clara, the Man-Scout moments earlier…).

    @lisa – All DW really is bigger on the inside. So great! Thx 😉

    @macphisto96 – You are right, that would be better. I just didn’t see why Missy would call UNIT on herself, but now it makes it more likely Osgood will be back, since Missy went through all the trouble to get to her? (Missy shot Seb right after it… hmmm?) Vastra is a distant second option now, but still possible.

    @elisian – Please excuse me. Unlike trolls, you appear to have good reasons for your opinions. I just disagree with them and should have been nicer in telling you that. I hope you enjoy the forum.

    #35310
    nerys @nerys

    @fatmaninabox: Oops, sorry about that … and thanks for the heads-up!

    @Bluesequeakspip: Yes. Strangely, she also sounded incredibly like David Tennant in her very first appearance; Asylum of the Daleks.

    Indeed! Thank you for reminding me. Must revisit that one again. One of my favorite episodes, and my favorite Clara – er, Oswin – episodes.

    #35311
    geoffers @geoffers

    to clarify the osgood returning scenario, it will only work if the real, human osgood returns, and the zygon-osgood was the one killed by missy. if the host template dies, a zygon will revert back to its natural look. that’s why they keep the host template alive (if i’m remembering correctly?)…

    @mudlark – as for the master surviving the rassilon episode, in ‘the end of time,’ was it obvious that the master was pulled back into the time lock, along with the time lords? i don’t remember it that way. i thought there was some wriggle room that the master could have been knocked unconscious and/or crawled away before the doctor regained consciousness? if he wasn’t pulled back into the time lock, he might have died from the battle, and regenerated into missy. he (she) did, after all, spend a great deal of time setting up the nethersphere, collecting the minds of dying people throughout all of time and space…

    if missy is not lying here –indeed! “there is always collateral damage with you and me,” and the line “you saved me!” may be the only two true things said in this exchange…

    but, now that i think about it, it makes more sense that she found another way out (probably through the crack on trenzalore). otherwise, how/where would she have gotten the time lord tech (nethersphere), and another tardis to use for all that zipping about in time and space (as intimated, but still not definitively shown). he didn’t have his own tardis in ‘the end of time,’ as i recall, he was still trying to steal the doctor’s…

    😉

    #35312
    geoffers @geoffers

    ah, and another point i wanted to make, that i don’t believe has been addressed (apologies if it has)…

    even if missy was shot by the cyber-brig, and killed (not teleported, somehow), perhaps her mind was automatically uploaded to the nethersphere? where, assuredly, she had a backup plan to get herself out, again? this raises as many questions as the little boy getting another body, the biggest being, is regeneration something that happens primarily in the mind? would it still work on whatever body missy downloads her consciousness into? i would think, yes, since river wasn’t a time lord, but regenerated a couple of times, too…

    or, perhaps a backup human body can be made, using the cyber nanotechnology, from the initial saved information when a mind/soul is uploaded (i.e. before emotions are deleted, or edits are done)? but without any cyber components left in? (or, maybe the boy that danny returned to clara is partly cyberized, and we just don’t know, yet, to what extent?!)

    hmmm… come on, fellow hive-minders, help me figure out this returning from the dead/nethersphere stuff!! lol…

    🙂

    #35313
    janetteB @janetteb

    @lisa Santa travels the world in a night on a sleigh that can hold enough toys for every child. He must be a timelord. Long have I said so.

    @norcaltradis. That is pretty much what I said. Orson is Danny without the baggage. I agree with you that the raport between Clara and Orson is not that of a great grandmother and descendant. I don’t think that the dire news Clara is about to divulge at the end is that she is pregnant. I think she is simply going to say that she can no longer travel with the Doctor. His assumption that Danny returned makes it easy for her to say it. I would be surprised if pregnancy was make out to be such a dreadful thing on what is still a “family” show. I think she feels as though she has both suffered too much damage and been the cause of damage as a result of her travels with the Doctor. By the end of the episode she has not just lost DAnny but she has been in part his killer and recognised that he died as a result of her actions and died in pain as a result of her lies. Personally I think that makes Donna’s fate pale considerably and that is why I needed someone to say, “No. It can’t end like this.” Santa was a bit of a shock though.

    I am thinking that we should try and reclaim the Guardian blog from the trolls. I just hope that Moffat and co are aware of this site just so they know what real fans are thinking about the series. I often imagine Moffat lurking here and rubbing his hands in glee, thinking, umm, I put an easter egg on a shelf, that will keep them busy, or I’ll toss in a mention of this or an illusion to that, just to fuel those crazy, bonkers theories. Then he sits back and enjoys the resulting wild flights of fantasy…

    Cheers

    Janette

     

     

     

    #35314
    lisa @lisa

    @ geoffers – I have had the same thoughts about how the boy returned in such a perfectly preserved body!
    I have been trying to work that out too but so far I got nothing 🙁 So I have to assume as well he must
    have some artificial components. In regards to Missy- earlier in the episode when she transported herself
    off the plane before it exploded it looked like the same blue contained disappearance which is totally
    different from the other reddish explody times when different victims ‘bought it’.
    Also, I think she has the red telephone box as a tardis now because why would 1- they keep showing a red telephone box so often? I have been to England many times and I know that there aren’t that many around
    anymore and 2 – look at the episode at about 7 1/2 minutes in when the people are standing at the gate
    of the cemetery with the black cloud growing over it. There is another red phone box and it has a second
    red phone box ‘reflected’ in it. Now it may be an optical illusion but the ‘reflected’ phone box has a
    kind of spout on top spewing black smoke! As if its a hint ? As if it is the Missy Tardis? So to me that
    means Missy has a Tardis to escape to and does not have to rely on the Nethersphere which btw I think has
    been captured by Unit and possibly being powered down ???
    Let me know what you think

    #35315
    lisa @lisa

    @Janette re: Santa- that’s very relevant point and it does really explains everything 🙂 doesn’t it

    #35316
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @lisa Also, I think she has the red telephone box as a tardis now

    This seems very likely, because:

    1) Missy appears outside the one on Peter’s Hill (just down from St. Pauls) before the Doctor has had time to run down from the door of the cathedral

    2) In real life, there *isn’t* a red telephone box there!

     

    Just to note – the telephone boxes seen in Dark Water and Death in Heaven (outside the graveyard) are different models – the one outside St. Pauls is a K6, and the one outside the graveyard appears to be a K2. (You can tell by the shape of the windows).

    #35317
    lisa @lisa

    @badwulf – plus the obvious that she chooses a phone box like Doc’s – a tribute to her endless love
    for him !

    #35318
    lisa @lisa

    @badwulf Maybe the different models are perhaps a continuity and /or convenience situation??

    #35319
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @lisa I was wondering if it might be a tip of the hat to Inspector Spacetime:

    #35320
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @lisa I think I shall pop down to St Pauls this afternoon, and take some photographic evidence, just to make sure!

    #35322
    lisa @lisa

    @badwulf Maybe its both ? Maybe that’s why there is a reflection of 1 red phone box inside the window
    of the other? Btw – I think there may also be a figure in that reflection but its very hard to make out

    #35323
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    Some fabulous stuff going on here, too much to keep up with, and too good for me to be able to add anything really significant.  However, I am mulling particularly all of the thoughts about how this series deals with death, and I feel a blog coming on.  Will post it here if it turns into anything sufficiently coherent/interesting.   Specially loved @purofilion’s last post – beautifully expressed.

    @janetteb – reclaim the Guardian from the trolls, would be great, but how?  I crossed swords with head troll Needstobesaid in one of his former guises as Alexander way back, after The Girl Who Waited, and it was very much like banging one’s head against a brick wall.  Taking him/them on is pointless – he steadfastly refuses to actually engage in the kind of dialogue that we have on this forum.  I guess if we all flooded the site with our perceptions and ideas and comments and just ignored him and his ilk, we could shift the balance a bit?

    #35324
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @lisa Agreed, it is tricky to discern whether there is a figure in the reflection. One observation, though – the phone box in the reflection is the same model as the one it is reflected in (both appear to be the K2 design – if only there was a K9!).

    Still, given the Master’s TARDIS has always had a functioning chameleon circuit, then minor changes in its appearance would be par for the course.

    #35325
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @janetteb @cathannabel Alas, I believe that CIF on the Graun is irredeemably troll-infested. I’ve been reading it for years, and I’ve realised that the only effect it has on me is to angry up the blood. I’ve never bothered posting there, although I was sorely tempted to because of a recent article where my local MP was justifying the fact that he was also working as a lawyer at the same time as being in Parliament. He claimed that his constituents had no problems with what he was doing – I wanted to point out to him that the *only* time I have been to one of his surgeries was to ask for help and advice , and not only did he take weeks to reply, the response was also factually incorrect.

    Anyway – I’ve digressed enough. I can only visit CIF with a metaphorical billy-goat gruff these days.

    #35326
    Anonymous @

    @cathannabel  thank you  for that.  I was just watching another Danny (Cross Flane) in Impossible Planet where the security officer declaims upon the death of one Scooti Manista: “How should man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods?” It seems that this episode (one of my favourites) was echoed across time in Death in Heaven as Danny Pink faced fearful odds, as a soldier, as Clara’s boyrfriend and finally, as PE Cyberised.

    As for trolls they do breed, don’t they? I find that I just have to stay away -which is a shame as some posters are succinct and erudite -those are usually the ones most misunderstood whereupon trolls in inimitable style will write: “well youse dOn’t gettid you great di** bring back Davies. RT and Rose and Tennant should not be dead on other planet You mUg effin”

    #35327
    Anonymous @

    scratch that. It’s Zachary not Danny!  Zachary Cross Flane from Satan Pit/Impossible Planet. As you is.

    #35329
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers I think that your idea is brilliant as 10 would say. If Missy downloaded herself into another ‘being’ she could do several things: come back as someone different or return in a different manner after being teleported (by herself I assume -super quickly, before the Brig was able to finish her off?…Though not sure on that one). In the former you suddenly have a different option should the female Mistress issue become …well, an issue. So she’s a handy ‘mind’ waiting for a body; kind of like a Time Lord, really.

    #35330
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Oooh! Bit of catching up to do, you’ve been prolific!

    @cathannabel @Purofilion @janetteb @badwulf (and everyone)

    Re trolls in t’other place. Just a reminder – we agreed ages ago not to namecheck particular posters from other blogs on here. Apart from the danger of contamination(!), they do check here from time to time and it makes us look smug, and a bit sneaky. (Not to mention giving them a kind of validation – “Oh look” they’re talking about ME!”  Please don’t give them the satisfaction, they’re not worth it). If anyone wants to tackle them it should be done on that board and not here (tempting as it is!!). There’s a few of us still over there, mainly to support Dan and go a small way to redressing the balance in tone (it’s not about homogenising our views of the show), since that’s where this Forum originally started. 😉

    @juniperfish I just went to check on Linda Lee’s reviews, but there’s been nothing posted (and no explanation) since Mummy… (which she liked a lot)

    #35331
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb  thank you ??I didn’t name check a soul. No ma’am but I was in conversation about them trying to be ‘funny’. Oops, I don’t generally do funny.. things fall apart.  Have a good night on the boards I shall be heading to bed soon so bonkers and calm….

    Lurking now, puro.

    #35332
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb  and others:  I’ll try to do my year 10s as to mimicking those-who-must-not-be-named: “I didn’t start it Miss, it was him. It was pedant. No, totally true. Random eh Miss?”

    #35333
    Anonymous @

    I gotcha Miss!

    #35335
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Purofilion

    Hi. Really wasn’t doing the big waggy stick, sorry if it came over that way. It’s just when we decided the above it was because it had got a bit messy – there was a spillage 😉 (And yes I agree – let’s blame @ Pedant, ha ha 😈 )

    Nighty night, sweet dreams n all that

    #35337
    janetteB @janetteb

    I fear that you are all right and CiF is beyond hope. Reading it depresses me but I feel bad about letting the trolls have the final say and abandoning Dan Martin. The trolls now speak publicly for fandom. IT is a bad state of afairs. I especially feel for Moffat, Capaldi and the other actors who are bagged constantly and there is clearly a political line too, to bag the BBC. Grrrr.

    @scaryb. I admire you and the few who persist. I do read through the comments, depressing though it is, and recommend where I can  but I have not posted in ages, probably mainly because I give up after reading a page of so of negativity.  I really must make more of an effort. I am sorry for raising the subject. Back to more pleasant topics,

    Cheers

    Janette

    #35338
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @geoffers and @lisa

    We’ve already seen how the boy could be returned from the dead with a new body. I think Moffat’s gone a metaphorical rather than a literal route this series, and the metaphorical explanation is given in Time Heist. The teleport brings Psi and Saibra ‘back from the dead’.

    Now, think about an SF teleport. It stores information about both consciousness and the physical body, breaks the original body/consciousness down (death) then reconstructs it at another place (return from death). That’s what CAL did in the Library; the people who were being teleported were ‘saved’.

    As @mudlark points out, there’s really not much left of us after a relatively short period in the ground and there’s definitely not much left after cremation. Missy would need to have uploaded sufficient physical information to reconstruct at least a Cyber-body. Using nano-wotsits/Cyber-pollen, okay, but you’d still need the basic template.

    If she’s using teleport tech to do that, then it will record sufficient physical information to effectively teleport the boy out of the Nethersphere. Just as CAL managed to teleport Donna out of the Library. Even though, for several hours, she only had a virtual existence.

    The whole thing is a perverted ‘Resurrection’ – I think riffing off David Tennant’s comment that the Master essentially plays the Devil in the Who Mythology. Instead of waiting out the disembodied existence in Heaven, the dead are in a virtual underworld (Hell). The Resurrection into a new-and-better body is perverted into a resurrection into a metal monster.

    There’s even the prospect of an Apocalypse battle between Good (the Doctor) and Evil (the Daleks) – but the Doctor rejects the temptation of playing God when he rejects Missy’s Army of Evil.

    It’s really good stuff (and the Master clearly did a bit of Bible reading during The Daemons, when he was being the Reverend Magister). 😉

    #35339
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    @geoffers re: returning from the nethersphere. Perhaps when the nethersphere up loads the minds it stores the DNA as well. Or it uses information stored in the mind to construct the physical appearance. Surely we all have information about our physical appearance in our memories. Of course the second theory would not necessarily lead to a perfect replication of the body. I’m theorizing based on the assumption that the Afghani boy’s physical body was remade since surely his body that died was no longer in tact. Since we have established that the cybermen were using nanotech to make new cybermen perhaps the nanites could also construct a human body.

    This discussion has inspired me to propose a new bonkers theory. We have established that it is possible for a stored mind to reenter the physical world, to live again. I predict that in the next season the Doctor will use this tech to bring back River Song from the data core and she will be his new companion. Whether or not they are still married will be a topic of discussion, since it’s til death do us part and technically she died. They marry again and River becomes wife number 3 and number 5. And this will later lead to the revelation that Clara is in fact the daughter of 12 and River and for reasons of the preservation of the time line was left with the human couple that she believed to be her parents.

    Have I gone too far?

    #35341
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    RE. the Graun — I’ve posted a few things over there — most are just there for the trolling but there are a couple you can decently and enjoyably engage with, though obviously not our multiply monickered pal. I do feel a bit sorry for Dan being left to their tender mercies and it does make me cringe that that is seen as the public face of fandom — all the nutcases too extreme even for Outpost Gallifrey!! I do hope that some involved in the production of the show do look in on here just so they can see it’s not all grinding negativity. But I think it’s beyond saving really and we should concentrate our energies on this site and making it civilised and thoughtful and awesome.

    On that note, apologies for not posting anything yet but I’m incorporating my thoughts on Death in Heaven in an end of series overview and am refreshing myself (!)  on previous eps on iPlayer while they’re still there.

    #35342
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    @bluesqueekpip I don’t really think that we can compare the boy’s return to a teleport. CAL stored the original body and brought it back later. This is not what Missy was doing. She took the consciousness and left the body to be buried or cremated etc. How can you bring back something that you didn’t store? I do agree that’s it’s like a perverted sort of resurrection. She needed minds for the cyberbodies she was creating. There was nothing to guarantee that the mind that was downloaded into the cyberman matched the body that was used to create said cyberman. I think Danny’s mind went into his same body because he was so recently deceased. And it made for a better story. A few people have mentioned that the brigadier’s body didn’t look like it would fit into the cyberman. Well who’s to say it was his body used to make that cyberman?

    #35343
    Charlie Cook @cookgroom

    #35344
    Brewski @brewski

    I’m voting for “Zygood”! 🙂

    #35345
    Brewski @brewski

    @barnable re the Doctor’s cracks on the Universe

    I know. <sigh>  It’s just the first time I felt like a crackee.  :p

    #35346
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @stormintheheartofthesun

    I don’t really think that we can compare the boy’s return to a teleport. CAL stored the original body and brought it back later.

    Unless your SF teleport is the type that sends all our little molecules down a beam, a teleport is just a way of recording and reconstructing information.

    The people inside CAL had no physical existence. She’d stored their information – including the information on the physical constitution of their bodies, as decoded by the teleport. But without the teleport, she didn’t have that information – so people who got munched had to stay in virtual reality.

    @mudlark was pointing out that you can’t reconstruct a body from what’s left, because there ain’t that much left. I’d suggest that the reason Missy was targeting the consciousness back at the various graves was because the nano-wotsits preferred a genetic match with the information stored to rebuild a body. Hence why Danny ended up back in Danny.

    [It would also fit the pattern seen in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances – the nano-wotsits needed a proper genetic match.]

    But the boy’s return definitely suggests that there was enough information stored to be able to rebuild his body, rather than a Cyber-body, from scratch.

    #35348
    DrBen @drben

    @bluesqueakpip @stormintheheartofthesun @mudlark and whomever else:

    The boy’s return certainly requires the re-formation of a living human body, since the boy’s own body (a) was killed several years ago and (b) presumably became a Cyberman and exploded in the clouds.  So presumably that’s a capability that can be used again?

    On that point, it just occurred to me that there’s a similarity between the boy’s return in “Death in Heaven” and the sister’s (Annabel’s) return at the end of “In the Forest of the Night”.  Perhaps there are larger forces at work here?  Maybe that’s where Orson comes from?

    Side note: Nothing would make me happier than the return of River Song, but she’s too much of a free spirit to be an every-week companion.  Still, I hope she turns up from time to time.

    @janetteb – If they don’t make a “bigger on the inside” joke about Santa’s bag of toys, there is no justice in the world.

    #35349
    nerys @nerys

    Re: trolls on the Guardian blog, I find IMDb to be much the same. There is the occasional respectful and thoughtful discourse, but I find that, by and large, there are lots of drive-bys, and then there are those persistently negative posters who want nothing more than to proselytize about how awful the show has become under Moffat’s tenure, how no real Doctor Who fan worth his/her salt could possibly like the show now … unless one is a fangirl/boy … etc., etc., etc. It really gets tiresome, to the point where I went searching for something better. Thankfully this forum showed up near the top of my search results!

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