Forest of the Dead – S30 (4) 9
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VickyMallard 3 months, 2 weeks ago.
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11 July 2014 at 13:20 #28890
Ten is not my favorite Doctor, but this is absolutely one of his best episodes.
The Vashta Nerada are one of the best monsters, especially when the Doctor explains that “Normally they live on road kill. But sometimes people go missing. Not everyone comes back out of the dark.” If that doesn’t give you chills I don’t know what will.
Donna is my favorite companion for ten. Her quiet observation near the end gets me every time: “Is all right special Time Lord code for really not all right at all?” “Why?” “Because I’m all right, too.”
And River’s introduction, of course. Ten’s just getting used to the idea of who she might be “Bet I like you” “Oh, you do”, and then she’s gone. The way he’s just staring at the spot where she was (I’m assuming she was vaporized) is just heartbreaking perfection. He’s already lost so much, and now he’s having to say goodbye when he’s only just met her. I think ten would have been much more open to the relationship with River vs eleven’s acting like a spoiled teenager about it.
1 December 2014 at 01:37 #35937In the Forest of the Dead, River whispers (what I assume is the Doctor’s name) in his ear… as a means to get him to trust her.
This means he would know she is his wife. Does this not mean that Doctor 11, Matt Smith, knows that she is his wife…. so for the entire time he was doctor he knew that she was his wife?
how do we explain that? Thanks!
1 December 2014 at 05:39 #35942Anonymous @
@wking999 Smith’s Doctor knows she’s his wife when he knows…. What I mean is, when Tennant has the name whispered into his ear he says “there was only one time where I could”. I don’t think this is automatically because of a marriage ceremony. Also, time can be re-written so Smith always asks ‘who are you?’. He knows she’s in storm cage for killing a ‘good man’ and he’s not stupid. He finds Time sensitive and tries not to make snap assumptions.
Kindest, puro.
25 June 2015 at 04:10 #40818@Bluesqeakpip It makes sense that she is putting Cal to bed. We clearly see it’s Cal, and River made the choice to share space in her mind with Cal, so naturally, just like Cal, she is part of the computer now; a controller and storage, so far more than just an uploaded version of her as Donna and the 4,000 people saved were. Also, not only was the Doctor not sporting a new hair cut before they we to see the singing towers, he was wearing a tux not a suit. Not the same time. I think we were led to believe it was, but the sonic River had in SITL/FotD was not the 11th Doctor’s sonic. It is some future version. I think the new Doctor, the 12th (or 13th, whichever you ascribe to) is River’s Doctor. Maybe he goes back to his old style before he takes her to the towers? I have a bunch of crazy theories surrounding SitL/FotD, but some seem so good I am afraid they really are terrible spoilers. How much do people really want to know, and when is it truly spoiling a moment better suited to letting the experts, like Moffat, portray it with all the magic of theater? Wouldn’t reading it be kind of anti-climatic? I’m just wondering because I almost feel bad writing anymore than I already have. Do you wrestle with that?
25 June 2015 at 04:38 #40821Sorry, I meant to write @bluesqueakpip
25 June 2015 at 11:53 #40831this forum is about theories! I don’t think a theory is a spoiler if it’s yours? It’s the mast of this forum -“theories more insane that what’s actually happening”
After all this time, FotD & theories won’t necessarily be spoilers, imo. I think River’s ‘doctor’ is Smith. A minisode saw Smith take River to the Singing Towers: his last date with her, I believe.
“I almost feel bad writing that…how do you wrestle with that?”
that was interesting! I actually thought you were referring to someone’s “bad writing,” but you meant “basically I feel bad in writing what is almost certainly a spoiler.”
Yes, if you’re the show runner, the writer, the photographer’s assistant or you’ve ‘got an in’. I don’t think in all my wildest times here I’ve ever thought, “you know what? If I write what I think is going to happen i’ll upset everyone because I know so much about the show and its arcs.” I would get it wrong anyway (because I always do but there have been others smarter than me who have been very close to the truth)
I think most people here don’t need to wrestle with anything like that. Spoilers are about what is yet to be seen but may have been revealed by newspapers/radio/panels. I would stay away from the spoilers pages which we have here. If you do have actual content knowledge then that’s the place to write it down.
If it’s a theory then go for it!!
It would be welcome @kharis.
Enjoy and jump in <*\*>
25 June 2015 at 17:01 #40835@purofilion Good to know, I was concerned. Some of my ideas center around Smith not being River’s Doctor, considering my theories in the above comment #40818. Smith’s Doctor did say he was going to the Singing Towers with her that night, but like in the above comment, he was not sporting a new haircut or new suit. The 11th did think it was an important trip, but it could have been important for another reason and became their special spot. In the Library she didn’t say it was her first time at the Singing Towers.
Thank you, I feel better now about throwing out my theories. 🙂 I think SitL is an incredibly important episode on so many levels, and in my view we have yet to see half of it seen through. I am leaving for the weekend camping, but I will write a few of my crazy theories when I get back.
6 July 2015 at 08:46 #40986After watching this two-part episode again I am positive River was merely uploaded and CAL is Clara. I don’t think River’s Doctor is Smith alone, I truly believe it’s a later Doctor, possibly the current Doctor. I believe Tasha Lem is River reaching out from the Library through another mainframe. Tasha does mean birthday and Lem means owned by God or Great One. I also think it’s interesting that the new Doctor has styled his TARDiS as a library.
3 September 2015 at 10:04 #42305Okay, fair to say my thories above are holding water, with the recent news that ********* will be returning. 🙂 Skweee.
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This reply was modified 8 years, 7 months ago by
Craig. Reason: Removed spoiler
3 September 2015 at 12:02 #423173 September 2015 at 16:15 #42325@purofilion He he! You were probably the first to know! 🙂 I feel like a kid counting down to Christmas. I am so excited! 🙂
24 September 2015 at 23:13 #43386@kharis definitely agree with you on the CAL=Clara theory! Been thinking it since pre-regen. Looks more likely now that there is the announcement about ———- in the Xmas special. Had a thought whilst reading this thread that helps that theory as well: In TMA CapDoc is looking for a bookstore at the start. Thinking rationally, you’d link that to Sally Sparrow and the Weeping Angels, especially as Blink was SM’s first ep, but the exact wording is niggling me. Bookstore. We’re British, we say bookshop. So if not a shop, why not somewhere that books are stored, like for instance a Library.
27 September 2015 at 02:08 #43503@bendubz11 Good point, really good point. I would call it a bookstore where I am from, so I completely overlooked that, but I am Californian @purofilion so I would most likely say, “Dude, where’s the bookstore” or just say point me to a coffee shop, since most bookshops in SF are coffee shops. 😉 My dream was to work and live in Great Britain, but it was too hard to receive the right to work.
<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>This may be the most important episode to review for the story arc we are now in. FotD/SitL are actually master works and brilliantly done on every level. There is so much in this episode yet to be resolved. </span>
27 September 2015 at 23:37 #43633@kharis I agree with you that Tasha is River ! I figured that out too.
Lem is Mel backwards too and Mel was the younger version that came just
before River. Also, not sure about the CAL-Clara?
Need to think about that more but its interesting! That would certainly work with
impossible girl though.
Cant locate this Tarot theory you mentioned today. But I would really like to find it.BTW- Are you in the Bay area? I live in Sactown 🙂
27 September 2015 at 23:51 #43634@kharis That also might help explain the telepathic link that River had with Clara
to some extent? I think we also saw a version of Clara as 1 of the Claricles behind
TenDoc in the Library? I definitely think she is a hybrid. This morning I thought
she could be linked to Missy. Now you’ve messed me up 😉 lol28 September 2015 at 00:04 #43635@lisa Yes, born and raised. The tarot theory is on The Witch’s Familiar thread. I have a much more complicated theory involving a lot of the Whoverse, tarot, Atlantis, Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc. but I am not a great writer, plus my last theory on Silence in Library and Forest of the Dead I posted not long after Asylum of the Daleks came out and was immediately picked up and turned into an article a few days later and lives in cyberspace forever more. My concern with that is that it became a public theory. This is going to sound weird, but I feel like it’s one thing to obsess over our theories here and other threads with us crazy Whovains who just have to talk about it while we wait for the next episode, but when the theory hits the general public it isn’t fun anymore. I felt guilty. Like parents can sit around and talk about Santa not being real, but telling a kid Santa isn’t real feels crappy. Not quite the analogy I want, but basically I felt bad after. Maybe more like cutting someone off mid joke and telling the punchline yourself. Not sure, how to explain but I feel Moffat has weaved these incredible story lines and I ruin the impact by telling the outcome. BBC has such amazing artists who bring Doctor Who to life. The music, acting and videography create a visceral reaction that telling it in a post can’t, so when you get to the reveal on the screen, it feels anti-climatic.
I have this crazy theory, this huge over arc of a theory, but it feels like a mega spoiler. I can easily talk about little things, like the tarot part, but the other theories make me feel like letting the CAL & River theory out of the bag. Like I knew the boy was Davros, but I can only imagine the impact if I hadn’t figured it out, so much more fun to be surprised.
Can send you a private message with some of it if you are really curious, can promise not to repost and you are sure knowing wouldn’t spoil your fun.
I could be wrong too, about my big theory, about CAL and River, then all my stressing over people knowing would have been silly. The CAL theory has been out there for awhile so talking about it here is just fun. It’s always different with crazy fans because we get excited about everything. (:
Leave you with this lovely thought about Forest of the Dead “The only water in the forest is the river” So she can flow in and out. Just saying. (:
28 September 2015 at 00:07 #4363728 September 2015 at 00:28 #4364228 September 2015 at 00:33 #43645<span class=”useratname”>@bendubz11</span> I can private message you if you promise to never repost and promise it will not spoil anything for you.
28 September 2015 at 00:34 #4364628 September 2015 at 01:04 #43650@bendubz11 Sent (:
28 September 2015 at 01:45 #4365428 September 2015 at 04:18 #43668@kharis Can I join the Mega-Spoiler-Theory club? I won’t repost anywhere, cross my hearts!
28 September 2015 at 07:22 #43686such a nice forum post. I really like it.
hanks and Regards.
23 April 2016 at 15:47 #51806I just watched this tonight. It was my second viewing.
Shivers down my spine moments: a) When Donna’s digital husband saw her in the library after she’d been searching for him and teleported away just as she walked off; and b) When River Song spoke about the singing towers and the Doctor in a new suit.
a) gives a hint of just how mean SM can be to the companions.
5 February 2017 at 03:23 #55419Has anyone wondered what happened to River’s screwdriver and her diary?
Missy
12 February 2017 at 05:23 #55524Mmm, no response. Probably because I’m an idiot!
I watched Forest of the Dead again the other evening, and of course River is holding her diary as she says good night to her vertual children. *rolls eyes* However, what did happen to the screwdriver? Was it left with CAL? Or did he keep it so that it could be given to River by the PC Doctor? Did I miss something?
Missy
17 May 2017 at 18:13 #57597love the tenth doctor and David Tennant I love all his episodes and his doctor
18 December 2018 at 04:31 #66754Have just watched Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead again, and still marvel at the pure genius of Steven Moffat.
To link it all together in Husbands of River Song and, in a small way, Doctor Mysterio shows a superb mind and talent.
God I miss him.
Missy
23 December 2018 at 21:34 #6690023 December 2018 at 22:27 #6690124 December 2018 at 10:55 #66908Sigh! Life just ‘aint fair.
@kevinwho
Indeed he was and is. How some people can say that he wasn’t a good writer renders me speechless.
I found it so exciting when River, in one of the above, says “MY Doctor ” and “you know when you see and old photograph of someone you know, but they aren’t quite done yet.”And you know she means the 12th not the 11th Doctor. daft I know, but it still makes me tingle.
Missy
24 December 2018 at 12:06 #66911@missy – Oh, he was incredible. But of course not to everyone’s taste. (Is anything?)
28 December 2018 at 10:02 #66963@kevinwho
Alas no,which is fair, as this new one is not to mine.
Such is life,
Missy
18 October 2022 at 05:19 #73537There is a lot to unpack with Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead. I finally reached these milestones on my rewatch, and now I will attempt to give my thoughts on them.
So in the future there is this world that is literally one big library, filled with physical books but also containing them in digital form, downloaded to a massive hard drive at the center of the planet. As we find out in the story, the library was initially built for a dying little girl named Cal, whose family spared no expense to give her access to unlimited books to read in her afterlife.
Cal is the mind of the library’s core, and “saved” over 4000 people who were in danger in the library, uploading their consciousness to the hard drive. From Cal’s perspective, however, it seems like the hard drive is her real life, and the library is something she keeps seeing in her dreams.
The Doctor and Donna quickly discover that something went wrong at the library. But they’re soon joined by a group of astro-suit-clad people who are explorers. One of them is River Song, in her first appearance in the series. Another is Strackman Lux, a man whose family built the library for Cal. I feel like the episode never gives the best reasoning for why River Song or the others came to the library, other than River Song called on the Doctor to meet her there.
The monster in the episode is the Vashta Nerada, microscopic swarms that hide in shadows, and latch onto people who get too close. Though we can’t actually “see” them, the vashta nerada is a completely frightening creature because it can kill in seconds and leave behind bones and shredded spacesuits. It’s made even more horrid by the spacesuits’ communicator device, which allows the fading consciousness of the deceased to continue talking a few moments after death. And the lights going out around the library.
Much of the episode has some pretty good dialogue, with River Song trying to say how she knows the Doctor without actually spoiling too much, and also the group racing around and trying to figure out if each new room is safe from the vashta nerada. River Song has her own sonic screwdriver, which she says was given to her by the Doctor in his future. She also has a gun that lets her punch holes in walls which seemed pretty useful.
About midway through the episode the Doctor tries to teleport Donna to the TARDIS, but she never completes the teleporting and is instead saved by Cal to the hard drive. What follows is Donna living a dreamlike life within the virtual town in the hard drive, going on a date, getting married, and having kids with a man with a speech impediment. It was just weird and funny enough to be sweet.
Meanwhile the vashta nerada kill off just about everyone in the explorer party, until it’s down to the Doctor, River Song and Lux. The dead characters in their spacesuits are animated by the swarms and continue moving and chasing after the survivors. The Doctor eventually gets the monsters to communicate with him over the suits’ communicators and learns that the vashta nerada took over the library because their forests were chopped down to make so many books, and the library is essentially their new forest.
River Song has a hard time getting the Doctor’s trust, but is finally able to by whispering his true name into his ear.
Cal is seen speaking with a character in the digital world called Dr. Moon. Moon seems to be acting as some sort of psychologist for Cal, and also checks up on her at home and in other places in the digital world. Cal also greets Donna when she comes to the digital world. He tells Cal that it is up to her to save everyone, and that the library is the real world while the town is the dream one. Lux explains to the Doctor in the library and explains that Doctor Moon is the antivirus software for the library, a moon that appears in its skies. More on Dr. Moon in a bit.
So it gets confusing here but there is a countdown timer in the library, and Cal is having trouble saving everyone – maybe she has run out of sufficient memory, or something. I’m not sure if it is clearly stated what is going on. The Doctor reasons with the vashta nerada in a pretty epic scene and asks them to back off so his team can survive and leave, and he’s forced to point out at there are so many books in the library that they can read up on who the Doctor is and what he’s done, leading them to withdraw and give the Doctor one night to get everyone out of the library.
The Doctor attempts to sacrifice himself to give Cal more system resources or memory to help salvage the saved people from the hard drive, including Donna. River Song isn’t having it and takes up the task herself, sacrificing herself and bringing back over 4000 people to the library. The episode ends with the Doctor realizing he gave River the sonic screwdriver because it contained her consciousness, and rushing it back down to Cal so she can be saved and live in the dream world.
And the scene with the Doctor snapping his fingers to open and close the TARDIS doors was just awesome.
So a qualm I have with this episode is, all of River’s friends who died were saved, so wouldn’t River have also been saved anyway? I guess I am truly confused about that point.
Doctor Moon is an interesting character, and I never really noticed (or remembered) just how much he is around in the hard drive world. He is an antivirus for the library, and he’s… a Doctor. I read up on it and discovered that Steven Moffat wrote Doctor Moon as though he is a far-off regeneration of the Doctor, who uploaded his consciousness into the library to help the people there and to be “with” River Song in the afterlife.
I think it’s an interesting added layer to this story. But I hope the Doctor never stops traveling and changing the universe for the better. I hope it’s more like he uploaded a copy of himself rather than doing this as some final act in life. It is sad to imagine DW without its Doctor.
There is a lot I could say about these episodes. I could say it’s unfair we just met River and already we witnessed her death. I could say I don’t understand whether it made sense that Donna was able to go to Cal’s world and return and be flesh and blood again. I could implore that something be done to make this library off-limits to future visitors since it is kind of a death trap. But all I can really say is these were some really deep episodes with some lasting implications for the future of the Doctor and the series.
18 October 2022 at 14:10 #73541@rewvian I got quite confused watching this double episode about what was actually going on. I think I eventually got it sorted out in my mind, though.
The Vashta Nerada were fortunate in a way that their forest ended up as books. I suspect most forests end up as cardboard packaging or toilet paper. Now that would make going to the bathroom truly scary, wouldn’t it?
River Song’s timeline caused me acute puzzlement due to a remark that she and the Doctor kept meeting in reverse order. I thought, how is this physically or logically possible? I resolved it to my satisfaction by reasoning that the Doctor hops around randomly in time in the Universe, for example he might (from his point of view) first see you when you are old, then he might travel back in time to see you again when you are 10 years old. But obviously from your point of view, you first met him when you were 10.
Similarly, River Song also hops around in time. So the order of her encounters with the Doctor are essentially also random. It just happens by chance (and not through some law of time travel) that their order of encounters are opposite to each other.
It’s not some strange property of River Song’s timeline that she travels ‘backwards’, it’s just chance intersections of their timelines. That’s the only way I can comprehend it, anyway.
18 October 2022 at 16:03 #73542@dentarthurdent I always used to assume the Doctor and River met in reverse orders, but I’m wondering if it’s not completely in any specific order. I mean if it was, she should have been given the sonic screwdriver like the next time they met.
I guess my memory of Eleven’s run is still from too long ago, and I never really saw all of Twelve. I know Eleven meets River as a child and that was most certainly out of order.
19 October 2022 at 12:36 #73549@rewvian I’m pretty sure there was a line of dialogue somewhere that said the Doctor and River Song met in reverse order – which somehow gave me the impression (wrongly) that River Song was travelling backwards in time – which is a logical impossibility. (Why? – because such an impossible creature could only interact with anybody in the real world for an instant, not even a microsecond – so it’s impossible). But this wrong impression misled me for quite a while. What is the actuality? – that she travels forwards in time just like everybody else. Occasionally (like the Doctor) she uses a Tardis or a vortex manipulator to jump to another time period, but once there, she’s back in normal time.
The order in which the Doctor and River meet is just chance, or Fate, or something – they could have met in any order.
At least, I think it’s like that.
cr
20 October 2022 at 05:44 #73553@dentarthurdent I guess my initial comprehension was that the Doctor always meets her in the opposite order that she meets him. So like the second time he meets River is her penultimate time where she meets him.
But I think it isn’t that literal and they meet in any old wibbly-wobbly order. Since they always use the book as a checklist of things that have and have not happened for the two of them, I guess that makes more sense.
20 October 2022 at 08:03 #73555@dentarthurdent and @rewvian My daughter in law (to be) watched the episodes with River Song and The Doctor in order of her meetings with him, but I don’t know if she actually did that by simply watching them in reverse order or worked out the actual order. I suspect one would need to peek into that blue box diary to do that correctly.
If the Big Finish productions and books are taken into account then there are more meetings than are shown in the tv series which scramble the order of meetings even more. Some of the meetings referred to (Jim the Fish for example) never make it to screen. (I think there may be a Big Finish or novelisation featuring “Jim”)
cheers
Janette
3 January 2024 at 22:42 #75237This seemed less creepy than the first one, maybe because it had more Donna in the “fake” world in it. Or because we already knew about the Vashda Nerada and there was less shadows. I got a bit confused in between but I loved the scenes with the Doctor and River Song, whom I assume is his future wife? And she knows the Doctor’s name, which I guess is something we’d all like to know (but I guess we’d die in the process, so maybe not.) And we see Donna in a wedding dress – again!
When that Vashda Nerada thing in the suit with the tinted windows said “you have one day” I was at first confused about this “long” deadline, but when all the people re-appeared I realised they of course also had to be brought off the planet.
I liked the end with the “spoilers” – both the scene with the diary and Donna’s question about her fate, and subsequent decision not to look, and then the Doctor coming back realising that his future self would have thought of a way to save her. And of course that scene with River’s last words to the handcuffed Doctor (did I mention I do like handcuffed Doctors?) who cannot do anything but watch her die. That was quite heartbreaking. For the first time, it felt to me like this was where things started to build up to what we end up seeing with the Fourteenth Doctor. “Is “all right” Timelord code for “really not all right at all?” Yeah, I’m really happy with how “The Giggle” ended.
The one thing I still don’t really understand is how the Doctor actually got out of there. River dies, all the saved people appear, and he’s still down there in handcuffs unable to do anything. But I will simply assume that Donna came and looked for him and someone had keys for the handcuffs.4 January 2024 at 01:25 #75239@vickymallard. Welcome btw. I envy you a little, watching these episodes for the first time. There is an episode of Red Dwarf where Kryten asks Dave to wipe his memory of Agatha Christie books so he can read them again for the first time. There are a few books and tv series, and Dr Who episodes I would chose to have wiped from memory so I can watch again, “for the first time”. This two parter would be high on that list.
At the same time watching the Doctor’s first meeting with River is a pure pleasure, knowing what is to come.
cheers
Janette
4 January 2024 at 02:06 #75241@janetteb and @vickymallard Hello and Happy New Year!
I also envy vickymallard watching all of these fantastic episodes for the first time. It was an emotional roller coaster that I would gladly ride again. The monsters in the shadows are voracious and love fried chicken. We meet River Song for the first time and then she is gone.What? But the Doctor hates goodbyes and he saves her and it is so sad.Donna also has a sad ending with all those memories that were real to her. This story is not going to cheer you up but if you need a good reason for a cry than they are for you.
stay safe
4 January 2024 at 22:42 #75247@janetteb and @winston: Thanks! I admit I enjoy exploring this world of the Tenth Doctor and going on a journey into the unkonwn with him. I mean with some episodes I have been spoilered and vaguely know what happens, but seeing it is just so captivating!
I admit that these two episodes (SitL/FotD) are currently not on the top of my list (although they are certainly very good). But that might be because a) the Vashda Nerada are kind of the wrong kind of creepy for me to be confortable with, and b) I haven’t seen anything of the other Doctor’s yet, so I haven’t seen his relationship with River blossom. In my head, it’s just him and Donna, and to an extent Rose and Martha in their own ways.And yes, I forgot about Donna losing her memories of her life with the kids and her husband. That was so sad. I guess it’s a little taste of what’s coming for her?
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