S33 (7) 10 – Hide

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  • #6813
    WhoHar @whohar

    @janetteb

    Funnily enough, virtually the first thing I said was “well that’s not much like the 1970’s”. I put it down to the set / wardrobe designers.

    I think candles were used during the power outages – stuck to a small saucer though. Not quite a grand as a candlarbra. Maybe @chickenelly can ask her grandmother about it.

    #6814
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @janetteb. Yes, there was something definitely amiss about the 1974 setting. Not only her clothes (the candles I put down to creating the atmosphere) but also the Professor’s age. It was 30 years after the war. When I was watching it, I could not help thinking: was he a commando and intelligence officer at the age of 15?

    When I heard the Professor read out the date at the beginning, I (like most others, I suspect) focussed on the 25th of November. But in light of your suggestion, I am wondering if what we were meant to focus on was the year.

    #6816
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi guys,

    Completely agree as to spoilers (I think I’m even more paranoid about them than anyone!).

    There was a question as to how to create space in posts, or somehow ‘hide’ posts on the spoiler thread.

    I don’t think just hitting Return a lot is respected by WordPress, so I tend to use pointless full stops.

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    Not sure how this would hide anything though – you’d still have to scroll past it, but….

    The other brilliant suggestion someone here had months ago, was to colour the type White. Hidden in plain sight! But can’t see a way to do it…

    #6818
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    #6833
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @janetteb

    Cheers – I’ll use it tonight.

    @scaryb @juniperfish

    I am the shameless marketing whore for The Doctor Who Forum! 😀

    #6837
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave @ShamelessMarketingWhore

    1974 – candles were definitely used in 70s power cuts (torches too)

    Costuming – these weren’t trendy 70s people – but agree, it had more of a 50s/60s feel – callback to Quatermass, on whom Palmer’s character was apparently based? Palmer’s age – he could have been early 20s in 1944, just about gets away with it. But why are they so concerned to establish it in 1974?

    @bluesqueakpip – Damn! Of course you’re right. So they started on 22nd.  Which is exactly 11 (eleven!) years after Kennedy’s assassination. (Did you call that already?) (Also the date An Unearthly Child was recorded)

    #6839
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @ardaraith Mary Poppins. brilliant! 😀

    #6840
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Just to add to the confusion over “1974”, when it was broadcast live the subtitles said “1972” rather than “1974”. Timey Wimey. 🙂 I’ve not checked i-player to see if it has been corrected.

    #6841
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    It is late at night (here), the bottle from the Blenkinsop cellar has been finished, and bed calls. And yet…Caliburn House. I do not know if anyone has mentioned this before (apologies if so) but Caliburn was an early name for Excalibur. Not sure what to make of this…if anything…

    #6844
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @blenkinsopthebrave Good call on Excalibur; yes it’s been discussed (while you were timelocked out of the Qantas Lounge free wifi). There’s some info on the BBC Who site about it , and a lot of the other references in Hide.  Inc some info about the Cloister bell – “‘It’s a sort of communications device reserved for wild catastrophes and sudden calls to man the battle stations” Tho, as various posters pointed out above, in practice it seems to be more for “imminent crash into alternate universe/the collapse of all things known situations (otherwise it would be clanging its clappers out constantly!)

    #6845
    janetteB @janetteb

    @blenkinsopthebrave, it has been noted. Your reminder just inspired me to devise a novel theory connecting King Arthur to the Dr but decided that it was just too bonkers to live. Must be bed time here as well I think.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #6846
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Dr’s new brown & purple shoes contain a variant of ‘The Seal of Rassilon’ in the brogue ‘hole punching’.

    Not-a-lot-of-people-know-that.

    The seal has been sort of abandoned in the new series up til now, probably because it’s really of Celtic origins. Also (confusingly) it appeared on Voga in ‘Revenge of the Cybermen’ before it’s ‘current meaning’ debuting in ‘The Deadly Assassin’.

    http://eleventhdoctorcostume.blogspot.co.uk/2013_02_01_archive.html

    #6847
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    The Dr will become Merlin only it hasn’t happened yet. It probably will when (or after) the Dr becomes ginger & wears an Afghan coat (see the novelisation of ‘Battlefield’).

    #6849
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave

    JFK’s “court” was known as Camelot. Just sayin 😉

    #6852
    janetteB @janetteb

    The Doctor always returns when Britain is in need. I have always wondered how he manages that. So Oswald was the nemesis of JFKs camelot. King Oswald, though not associated with Arthurian legend in any way that I can find, was roughly a contemporary of Arthur’s give or take a century. Nice though it would be to link the good Dr with the good king I can’t quite work out a connection. I do like the idea of the Doctor as Merlin. That has potential. Merlin must have been a time lord. It would also play into the Cumbra connection but then Arthurian legends crop up all over the Isles.

    cheers

    Janette

    #6853
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @janetteb @scaryb @blenkinsopthebrave

    So Oswald was the nemesis of JFKs camelot…

    That’s so brilliant I spat tea… @blenkinsopthebrave I think your Kennedy fourth-wall theory is back on! Thanks to this and @bluesqueakpip ‘s Merlinesque (as in “wizard”) numerology

    #6854
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb etc Am sure the Dr as Merlin’s been riffed on a few times, possibly particularly in Battlefield (am a bit vague on the details!). And Oswald as Kennedy’s nemesis is BRILLIANT! (and bringing in King Oswald, Cumbria etc). Lots of Celtic refs (esp Scotland and Wales) in Arthurian legends.

    PS Happy 101st birthday to Sahibzadi Zohra Begum Mumtaz-ullah Khan (who appeared in the Marco Polo stories in 1964). 101 just seemed worth a mention! And the Marco Polo series was one of my absolute faves ever; I may be mis-remembering but I remember the production values being particularly high in it. Nice link @phaseshift akaSMW http://guide.doctorwhonews.net/person.php?code=318

    #6855
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I remember being disappointed when Colin Morgan wasn’t ginger in ‘Merlin’.

    @blenkinsopthebrave – could the new novel ‘Shroud of Sorrow’ tie into the 50th Anniversary show? (It’s set in the 23rd of November 1963).

    #6856
    ScaryB @scaryb

    <hi fins @juniperfish>

    #6857
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @janetteb – King Oswald became a saint after his death. Saints can perform MIRACLES…

    @juniperfish – Oswald JFK conspiracy usually= 2 gunmen. Is there a 2nd ‘Gunman’ in series 7 we don’t know about?

    Do the fields of Trenzalor contain  a grassy knoll?

    #6859
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I wonder how many other fans watch the Friday repeat with the subtitles on? Usually there are words missed or uncertain without them (not because the music’s too loud, but because the acting is ‘natural’).

    For instance Carlisle was Carlisle not Carlyle as some might have wondered. Doesn’t diminish the reference though. Also it’s worth taking the subtitles with a pinch of salt (they are official but often incorrect). I noted at least one or 2 mistakes and a couple of deviations from what was heard this week.

    Still can’t get over the emphasis of syllables in ‘kenDALL-mintCAKE’ or the pronounciation of ‘You wanted a word’, in an otherwise brilliant episode. I’m still being grown up & not crying about the death of the Bee in Metabilis… 

    #6860
    Lula @lula

    Would someone mind telling me exactly how “Metebelis” is pronounced?  I read it just as Eleventy said it in Hide, but I’ve also seen all the, “How could they allow him to mess that up so badly?” comments.  I’ve seen an episode of each Doctor (1-7…haven’t seen the 8th’s movie), but Metebelis 3 was new to me until this past episode.

    #6861
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @wolfweed

    I was a bit surprised by some of the angst over the Metabilis pronunciation on the G blog as well. I couldn’t help but think of The Eleventh Hour, and The Doctor saying about food:

    “New mouth, new rules..”

    It seems to fit perfectly 🙂

    #6865
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @lula

    I think the argument is just that it isn’t how Jon Pertwee pronounced it to be honest.

    If you look at this trailer for “Planet of the Spiders” you and listen out around 40-50 seconds in he says it to Sarah Jane:

    #6866
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Did you call that already?

    @scaryb – I did, but on t’other place.

    I’m increasingly going back to an idea I first thought of a while back: that we are watching the longest flashback in TV history – and all the Kennedy references and dates are the Doctor’s message to himself from his own subconscious.

    Music is the password.

    Go back to November 22nd, 1963.

    Did the ‘Ghast’ strike in 1974, or 1970? Dougray Scott is 47 – in 1970 he’d have been born 1923, just old enough to become an officer in 1941 – or even join up in 1939 if he’d lied about his age. Many did. But has the Doctor’s memory changed the date to eleven years after 1963? So that they started this ghost hunt exactly eleven years after the date he needs to go back to?

    In the Doctor’s universe, was November 22nd 1963 when Kennedy was assassinated? Yes, because we saw a photo of the Ninth in the crowd. Was that when Susan was followed home by two of her schoolteachers? Possibly, because you don’t have school on Saturday. However, nobody is mentioning the assassination. They wouldn’t – because it happened at 6pm British time. At  that point the Doctor has just hit the dematerialise lever on the TARDIS.

    One is forced to ask what on earth would happen if Kennedy’s assassination had happened earlier in the day – say at Fort Worth, Texas instead of Dallas, Tex. Because even in Britain the Kennedy assassination was major, shocking news; two teachers would undoubtedly be talking about that, not one of their mildly problematic pupils. If news of the Kennedy assassination had broken a few hours earlier, the Doctor might never have met Ian and Barbara.

    Oswald. Clara’s name is Oswald. Is it really? Was she placed in time by the Doctor himself, was her family selected because their surname is Oswald? Or is she ‘Clara Oswin’, but the Doctor’s memory is telling him that the important, vital name is Oswald?

    It has to be Oswald who kills Kennedy. Oswald who did kill Kennedy. Not some time-travelling assassin a few hours earlier. Oswald. Remember me.  Because he must remember that name.

     

     

    #6867
    Whisht @whisht

    not sure if this is the right thread, but….

    I predict in tonight’s episode (JttCotT) we will see a white goose!

    .

    Though hopefully not a guilty Doctor!

    #6868
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @bluesqueakpip

    ‘Where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?’

    Ian: ‘On my way to the Stone Age!’

    #6869
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht – don’t you mean a wild goose?

    #6870
    Whisht @whisht

    @bluesqueakpip – Roger Moore as a future Doctor????!?!!??

    YOU’RE MESSING WITH MY MIND!

    no, I think it was sadder that it wasn’t wild!

    [sob]

    #6871
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Hmmm… and, fourth wall theory. The Doctor’s memory is gone. His past has been changed. The Daleks no longer remember him. He deleted all records of his own existence. If the TARDIS has forgotten as well, he’s stuffed; there’s no way he can get his memory back. Not only will he not remember his assistants, they won’t remember him.

    Except there is one record in existence. In all the universes, there’s one obscure little place where ‘The Doctor’ isn’t real; he’s the hero of a family TV show. And where his fans were so obsessed that they refused to forget him … and they’ve got a record of all the important events in his life since November 23rd, 1963.

    It would be quite funny if all the ‘clues’ that have been cropping up this series supposedly got put in because Steven Moffat got given a mysterious list of dates and references. And we’re not the only people to be trying to work out the meaning of the show. 😀

    #6872
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I predict that JTTCOTT will give us the Eye of Harmony (not Sub-Set).

    Lots of people will then complain about the use of a shoddy ‘Who the Movie’ notion (the actual Eye is in the TARDIS?!?).

    In both ‘Visual Dictionaries’  it mentions the Dr has had a ‘mini-copy’ in the TARDIS at least since Ecclestone (look them up). Perhaps we can use this to also explain away the Movie use? (The rubbish thing about the movie is that there’s no need for the actual Eye to be in the TARDIS – Time Lords & Gallifrey still existed).

    Now that Gallifrey is gone, the (or an) Eye would have to be somewhere outside of the Time-Lock for the TARDIS to work of course.

    However, if it’s THE eye, when did the Dr get it?

    The Dr had to go to Cardiff every so often to refuel the Artron energy in the TARDIS because there’s no Black Hole any more to fuel it. Why didn’t the Dr just hook up an Eye to a Black Hole, then? Maybe he has now…

    Perhaps with last week’s Sub-Set appearance we are setting up a big explanation of the above. If we do see the Eye (proper) this week expect much a-gnashing & a-wailing…

    Also , perhaps a kitchen full of burnt souffles? An attic? A cellar? Also, I want to see Clara eat a Bacon & Egg flavoured Mars Bar from the Food Machine… 

    #6873
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    I’m gnashing already @wolfweed. I think we have to accept the whole movie as canon. It’s just so painful because it’s the creation of someone will no love, interest or even vague understanding of the shows premises and history.

    #6874
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Then I suppose I’m predicting that @haveyoufedthefish will have no teeth left by 8pm…

    Unless it happens &  there’s a clever explanation, perhaps even slyly rejecting previous canon?

    I’m sure RTD did something of that ilk about ‘being half human’ but I can’t remember what it was just now…

    Oh – perhaps it was Journey’s end – the Dr finds the notion of being half-Human ‘disgusting’ (or was it’ just having one heart’?).

    #6875
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    He basically said that the Doctor had used the Chameleon Arch to make himself part human, as a means of fooling the Master. Though why he should want to, I don’t know.

    Apart from Paul McGann’s lovely performance I tend to try and blot the Movie from memory; I’m happy McGann’s a canonical Doctor, but I’d prefer to think of the rest of it as ‘The Doctor was regeneration loopy/lying through his teeth”.

    #6876
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Thanks for the ‘Clara’-fication, @bluesqueakpip 

    #6877
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed — in the novel The Eight Doctors, Saint Terrance of Dicks explicitly said that the Eye of Harmony was not the real Eye but more like a nickname Time Lords gave to the TARDIS power source in homage to the ‘link’ at the other end…

    And personally if that’s good enough for Saint Tel….

    #6878
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Ta, @jimthefish

    Of course the truly rubbish bit in the movie was that ‘The Eye’ needed a Human eye to open it, etc. etc….neutral

    #6879
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed — ugh. You had to go and remind me of that, didn’t you?

    #7451
    Omega @omega

    Just re-watched utopia and before the master became Time Lord again he was a professor. There was a professor in this episode and last episode, the on in Cold War also seemed quite strange, which could be hinting at the possibility of there being another Time Lord.

    #7452
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Welcome Lord @omega – yes another Time Lord – of course River is part Time Lord and she eventually becomes a Professor…

    I have been wondering whether your namesake might put in an appearance however. What exactly is your connection to the Papal Mainframe?

    #7453
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish @omega – well we’ve got the right new member if we want bonkers! Let us know if you get an answer, Jfish :-p

    <runs off to safety of JttCotT board before she gets blasted LOL>

    *pttpth! (spits out memory of the movie!)*

    #8030
    Anonymous @

    ‘Hide’ episode comment which will now be lost, so this is my own lonely lament.

    What does the name of this episode refer to?  Is it a call-back to Classic Who in some way?  No-one is hiding in this episode (except the feelings of Dougray and Jessica’s characters, which is a bit of a stretch; nor do I buy that it’s about Clara having to hide what the empath said to her about the Doctor).

    S Moffat goes on about the clues that are in plain sight and ‘some that aren’t’.  I’m putting my bet on this episode’s title meaning something in the tidying-up of loose ends.

    #17262
    Anonymous @

    Just rewatched this one and by a curious coincidence also just watched Enigma (having just got around to reading the book also). Found myself struck by the similarity in the character, tone and perhaps even some of the themes between the two. Definitely suspect that Dougray Scott was cast based on his performance in Enigma (which I thought impressive). He’s really a very underrated actor. He’s another one of those fellow who I can’t seem to remember ever putting in a noticeably bad performance…

    #17263
    thommck @thommck

    @jimthefish fun fact, my wife, mother in law & I where all extras in Enigma. My wife even literally bumped in to Dougray and he seemed a nice bloke in real life too

    #17269
    Anonymous @

    @thommck — it’s definitely an interesting movie, although I think the book marginally has the edge. Interesting to see Jamie Kingkiller from Game of Thrones pop up in it too.

    I’m glad that Mr Scott is a nice fellow. His turn in Hide showed that he was definitely Doctor material if a certain Mr Capaldi hadn’t nabbed the part. (Curious that along with Bill Patterson, those two also appeared in The Crow Road. Quite a lot of Who alumni in that show it seems…)

    #17352
    Anonymous @

    @thommck – oh, please, do tell us how you and your family were in Enigma!  I’ll watch specially again, looking out for y’all.

    I just re-watched Hide on BBC iPlayer and am no closer to answering my question from May, namely, what does the episode name refer to?

    The ‘mystery of Clara’ is pushed a little too hard in this episode for me, in retrospect.  Of course we don’t have the full answer(s) yet – but I remember all the ‘protesteth too much’ comments upon original viewing as to how Clara simply couldn’t be an ordinary girl what with everyone and their empath insisting she is indeed.

    #17353
    Anonymous @

    @Shazzbot — I think the term ‘Hide’ (aside from the likes of people hiding their feelings etc) was more like a hide in bird/wildlife watching. A disguised enclosure from which you can safely watch the world around you…

    #17358
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @jimthefish @Shazzbot

    It looks like a lot of us are doing extra homework! 😀 I agree with Jims comments about Dougray Scott. Great in Enigma and in Crow Road.

    I took the meaning of Hide to be the hidden motivations and feelings with the Professor, Doctor and Clara to be honest. All seem to be hiding behind a facade.

    #17365
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot and @phaseshift – I also think it’s ‘hide’ because everyone is hiding something – and it does also play into the idea of the photography ‘hide’. That’s suggested by the photograph of the Doctor, developing slowly as the Professor talks about himself.

    In hide photography you use the ‘hide’ to get closer to the subject than would normally be possible if the photographer were visible. Similarly, in Hide we get a much more detailed picture of the Doctor than he’d normally ever reveal.

    Emma Grayling’s an empath; so she says Clara’s an ordinary human girl. But at least two things in this episode are not ordinary about Clara. One, the cold spot – the well between the two universes – starts to smoke when Clara runs through it. Two, the TARDIS doesn’t like her.

    Both of those could be because – until she gets to Trenzalore – she’s a paradox in the making. The events that lead to her conception hasn’t happened yet. From the empathic point of view she’s an ordinary human girl, from the time point of view she’s anything but ordinary.

    I would, however, note that if Emma Grayling was telling the truth – she’s then the only main character in the episode to tell the truth throughout. The Doctor, the Professor and Clara are all revealed to be lying. 😉

    #17376
    janetteB @janetteb

    I would appear that Clara is an “ordinary girl” in extroadinary circumstances if we are to believe Emma. Agree with @jimthefish comment re’ Enigma. This episode has a distinct resemblance to the film even down to the setting and costumes which were not reflective of the year in which it was supposedly set.

    Cheers

    Janette

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