The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special

[WhoHar @whohar]

@timeloop

That’s really very nice for fan-fic.

Lots of Doc9 in there though and no Matt.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@nick

Yeah 70 mins is an odd run time. Neither full movie length or even double ep length. Strange.

Apparently there is going to be an intro to the movie too so potentially it will be even shorter.

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@whohar Sure there is Matt, even in several scenes. Especially his voice – from ROA. But they are all there: 9, 10, 11 and Hurt. As well as Clara and Rose. Have you even watched all of it? ;D

[Whisht @whisht]

hey @mini-htpbdets – no need to apologise (whatever for??).

I only mentioned it as it gave me a thrill when he said he liked it – its a measure of the respect I have for him that I’d be thrilled!

Glad you’re taking a break with your family.
take care and if you decide to keep posting, we’ll be very happy.

[janetteB @janetteb]

Thank-you for sharing your Uncle’s theories with us at this most difficult time @mini-htpbdets  It had that touch of brilliance that his theories so often did and certainly gives a whole new dimension to our bonkers theorising. Moffat does like to misdirect and it would be so like him to have set up the Hurt Doctor as one of the Doctor’s incarnations which we didn’t previously know about only to pull that rug from under our feet. Moffat loves to play with the audiences expectations.

Re’ the Zygons. They may not have been one of the most memorable of Who monsters for most fans but their shape shifting ability did give them a scare factor that far outweighed their rubber monster appearance. I too would be surprised if they last beyond the first five minutes, however, given their shape shifting abilities, they may have a bigger role to play. (The Terror of the Zygons was the first Dr Who story I ever watched so I am rather excited by their return.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@timeloop

When I said “no Matt” I really meant “not enough Matt”.

Fair enough though as I may have missed a few things as I was watching on a phone and way past my bedtime.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

I wake up eager to discover what bonkers theories have been discussed during the long Canadian night, and I find…nothing! (Well, almost nothing.) As the Zygons failed to spark discussion, I now give you something that has been hiding in plain sight on the poster for the 50th…”Bad Wolf” painted on what looks to be the tiled walls of the London Underground.

I had assumed “Bad Wolf” had run its course during the Eccleston tenure, and the London Underground (circa 1967?) conjurs up the GI and…yeti?

And yet here it is on the poster.

So, I leave it with you. And I expect more this time!

*puts on best Hartnell voice: “Eh, eh, what? Come now, humph”*

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@whohar Did you watch it on a computer? What are you thoughts on the Moment?

@blenkinsopthebrave I agree that it is not on that poster by mistkae. But I cannot make anything of it. Any ideas to get us started?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@whohar

Yeah 70 mins is an odd run time. Neither full movie length or even double ep length. Strange.

But just about the right length for advertiser supported broadcasters to fill 90 mins.

[Anonymous @]

I see you are strugelling about bad wolf

I saw Moffat in one interview with some geeks (geek.com?) , then he said t. Russel was planing to do something , and than he was going to do it.

I suspect Russel was planing to introduce river song (silence in liberary) , and then go into rose is rivers regeneration story telling

Off course , Moffat had to add his own thing , so he made one extra river regeneration , clara

There is a gap in lets kill hitler , when river is that teeneger , before that i suspect she had a number of regenerations

Two key episodes – good man goes to war (river song) , the end of time (moment time war)

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@timeloop.

Somehow, I think it is related back to the 11th’s earlier loss of memory regarding the GI (at Clara’s grave at the end of The Snowmen). Now that we know that the GI entered the Doctor’s timestream to turn his victories into defeats, that loss of memory could be an example of the effect the GI had while in his timestream. There also has to be a reason why he retrieves a map of the London Underground, c. 1967 in The Snowmen.

Perhaps Rose (in a way I have not yet figured out–aided by Clara in the timestream perhaps?) was also painting “Bad Wolf” in more points in the Doctor’s timestream than was necessary for the resolution at the end of the 9th’s tenure (if that makes sense).  The purpose was similar–to aid Clara this time to undo the damage caused by the GI after she enters the timestream to save the 11th (and all the other Doctors).

So perhaps we will see what we did not see in The Name of the Doctor–how Clara saved the Doctor by entering his time-stream (a quick flash to Clara in the London Underground c. 1967, and other examples).

I am not sure about any of this, but you asked for some ideas to get you started. Your wish is my command.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

The reappearance of the Bad Wolf might also mean that the only solution to the problem is an ontological paradox. Another one. 🙂

That is, the only solution is for the Doctor to create the Doctor? In the same way that Rose as Bad Wolf created Rose as The Bad Wolf. Or Clara caused the meeting of her parents.

The other time ‘Bad Wolf’ got used after Series 1, it was to show that Rose was coming back – which meant that the universe was in big trouble. So it could just be that – though that’s a bit Blue Boringers, I think.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@Anonymous – You remind me of Omega – You don’t fully exist, nor not exist…Except Omega didn’t have a choice…….

[Anonymous @]

artist foremerely known as d123456 will change his name into crazy omega and disappear and appear at times of need

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@blenkinsopthebrave –

I now give you something that has been hiding in plain sight on the poster for the 50th…”Bad Wolf” painted on what looks to be the tiled walls of the London Underground.

I got nothing logical, so to give you something illogical – the HurtDoctor isn’t Doctor 0, 8.5, 12 or any other.  He’s 9.  An alternative version of 9, caused by 8 dying at a different point in time.  The Bad Wolf events still played out with the HurtDoctor as the 9th Doctor but without Rose and in different locations.

Events are changed disastrously, when the Dalek invasion originally seen in the Parting of the Ways results in the HurtDoctor (with no Rose) using the Delta Wave, destroying the Dalek fleet and the TARDIS which in turn scatters Bad Wolf as a warning through time.  Without the safety of the TARDIS, the injured HurtDoctor/Alt9 has to retreat into his own timeline as a method of survival.  The HurtDoctor must now work with 10 and 11 to correct the timeline to ensure the correct version of 9 lives and that 10 and 11 can come into being, even though this means he will cease to exist.

There’s more holes in that than in the average troll after meeting @shazzbot ‘s shotgun.  So, alternatively, it’s a left over from a previously un-televised Rose – D9 adventure that Rose will pay lip service to when seeing the graffiti again.  But that’s far duller.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@osakahatter Suitably bonkers! However, I think that your theory would require the participation of Eccleston, to return at end of episode to replace Hurt. Come to think of it…Jenna Coleman was kept under wraps before Asylum, so who knows?

@phaseshift, @craig, @jimthefish, @juniperfish, @scaryb, @janetteb, @Shazzbot, @nick, @timeloop, @wolfweed, @bluesqueakpip, @pedant, @whohar, and well, everybody I have forgotten and everybody who is “lurking”.

There are only a few days left–both from the trailer and from the 50th. Perhaps now is the time for everyone to finally nail their colours to the mast, go out on a limb (and other mixed metaphors), and offer their prediction of what is going to happen in the 50th. It does not have to ultimately be proved correct, but it should be suitably insane while possessing some sort of narrative logic based on what we have seen so far.

For my part, I firmly believe that Moffat will “change the game” in a really quite dramatic way; so dramatic that no one will be able to write about the Doctor in a way that predated the 50th.

So, what is my bonkers prediction? Well, I have not entirely given up the idea that the previous Doctors (“our lives”) will fade in such a way that we will never again be able to revisit them (somewhat like Amy and Rory in New York), and only “exist” as long as we remember and believe in them.

But for a fully fledged bonkers prediction before the trailer hits…it will have to wait until I pick up Mrs Blenkinsop from work.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

OK @blenkinsopthebrave

Don’t really have a”grand theory” but:-

1. I’ll restate my view that filling out a birth certificate is as likely as a wedding to be a place the Doctor’s real name is recorded. Given River’s knowing comment at the end of TNotD, and the very conspicuous reminders of Susan, I think this floats the possibility that Clara is Susan’s mum (so her dad is a step-dad);

2. Although I lean towards the “Between 8 and 9” theory, if Doctor Hurt is a progenitor then I think he is also progenitor to Roger Delgado’s Master (The Master has been conspicuous by his absence in the run-up);

3. Watch out for a lost shoe;

4.The regeneration limit will be resolved for at least the next 50 years;

5. Given the rumours about more lost eps being found I suspect it may not be coincidental that one featuring “twins” (See 2 above) and another the GI are the ones released. Moffatt does not do coincidence;

6. The trailer will be grossly, wilfully and deliciously misleading.

Oh yeah… BiTD me and @juniperfish batted about the riffs on JM Barrie’s work, especially in S5. The #SaveTheDay hashtag has a real “Tinkerbell” feel to it. I will not be totally shocked by some sort of audience participation.

We have had Folklore, we have had Myth. Now lets have The Legend.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@blenkinsopthebrave

It’s a great idea, I shall post tomorrow when I havea bit more time and am a bit more awake! I just need to work out if I’m going bonkers, or if I’m applying the blue boringers again.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@timeloop

Watched fan fic trailer on phone, so not the best.

Re: “The Moment” I like it as a name and a notion but I don’t think it will be used, mainly as I don’t think it has enough currency in the current show. I had completely forgotten about it until you mentioned it again and – I presume here – so will most of the fanbase.

Then again, I get a bit switched off by namedropping of events, which I perceive as throwaway dialogue. I’m thinking in particular here of the Tennant speech which mentioned “the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-Weres”. It’s just babbling to my ears.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave

A fine idea. Struggling to come up with a cohesive, comprehensive theory at the moment. I’ll mull it over.

At this stage, I’m not ruling anything out.

[Nick @nick]

@blenkinsopthebrave

to mis-quote WhoHar (and another 1960’s TV show) “anything can happen in the next 77 minutes”

Nick

[Anonymous @]

@blenkinsopthebrave et al

OK, here’s some ideas/predictions:

• Some surprise Doctor appearances. Davison and McGann probably and other docs via the magic of CGI.
• The Zygons will have next to nothing to do with the main trajectory of the story. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re the adventure that Doc 10 and Rose are having/just finishing off when Smith and Clara gatecrash their party (probably by jumping out of the Doctor’s timeline at that point.)
• Doctor Hurt is the real Doctor Nine and that by the end of the story we will see him redeemed and worthy of the name of the Doctor. I also suspect that we’ll see him regenerate at the end, either via a surprise appearance by Eccleston or a lookalike.
• We won’t see that much of the Time War. A few flashbacks maybe. We won’t see Time Lords. And if we do they won’t be staying. The Time Lock will stay in place.
• The Big Bad of the story might in fact be the Silence and we’re going to see a resolution to that whole palaver. We are also going to find out why the TARDIS exploded.
• The episode could well be a ‘two-parter’ with the Christmas episode and will set lots up but won’t be resolved until a month later. It will either end with a regeneration cliffhanger or we’ll see at least an image of Peter Capaldi as a future doc.
• Professor Zaroff will not appear.
• Agree with @whohar that The Moment will not be a significant part of the show.
• The regeneration limit will be resolved. I suspect that going by some lines in The Name of the Doctor it will be that it will no longer matter if ‘our’ Doctor is physically the original one so long as he goes on living in the spirit of the original one. (Maybe it’s time to dust down @juniperfish‘s old ‘we’ve been watching the Ganger Doc all along theory’. The show can then continue for another 50 odd years without anyone worrying about regenerations.

[Nick @nick]

@jimthefish

all of that and more I rather think including Moffat’s reboot back to day 1 and doctor 0.  I agree not too much footage of the Time War itself, but I guess there’ll be an explanation that ties the Doctor/Regeneration limit/Time war/Daleks/Silence/GI/Susan/Clara together (somehow) out of which the reboot (more of a restart I hope) is derived.

Doing all this in 77 minutes is a big ask especially as the anniversary show is event TV so the story has to have an exciting stand alone narrative as well. I don’t know if this means it need be a two parter in the proper sense, but I think it does mean that resolution of (some of these) arc concepts will be at Christmas.

Nick

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

The scene that was axed from ‘The Stones of Blood’ where the Dr celebrates his birthday with a bloody big cake & a new scarf will finally come to fruition.

It will be like ‘The Feast of Steven’, as the cast will turn to camera & propose a toast.

The audience will (interactively) save the day by joining the toast & proceeding to get drunk as skunks…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

OK, back to nail my colours to the mast with more predictions for the 50th.

• There will be a 4th wall explanation…somehow. I really like the “Tinkerbell” allusion that @pedant talks about above.
• While it may not happen in the 50th, it will be set up for a future reveal that Clara is the daughter of the Doctor and the mother of Susan.
• Don’t agree with @jimthefish on the time lock. I think the Time Lock will be broken and the Doctor will no longer be the last of his kind.
• Do agree with @jimthefish that the regeneration limit will be resolved.
• Do not think we will find out why the TARDIS exploded, as Moffat writes for a general audience and for those the age of Linda Lee, and that audience do not obsess about a resolution to the exploding TARDIS (or the missing floor in Amelia’s house, even though I would love that one to be addressed).
• Despite my lingering attachment to the idea, there will be no Kennedy or Canton, I fear.
• The big one: Moffat will bring about a really major change to our understanding of the Doctor so that no future writing can be done without reference to the major change he will introduce. And that change will be….I just don’t know.
• Most of what Moffat will refer back to in the 50th will have been previously introduced by…Moffat. There will be little of consequence that was first introduced by RTD, save the Time War. As for BG Who, it will be there for “colour” (eg, Zygons), but less so for plot. The only possible exceptions will be the Time Lords (introduced in BG Who) and perhaps the Hartnell Doctor and Susan (see my second point).
• It will be brilliant, and we will want more. Immediately.

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@blenkinsopthebrave Okay, here are my thoughts for the 50th in no particular order:

I see in my crystal ball that:

• We will see Galifrey, the Time War and “The Moment”
• The Time Lock will stay in place
• Matt might be regenerating at the end as a cliffhanger. I somehow cannot believe that there will be a full regeneration in the Christmas episode. It is just not in the spirit of Christmas and if I remember correctly the last one was very much so. Although it would give Moffat more time to make it as painful as possible  which is what he promised…? He did even tease Matt at ComicCon about his death scene (yes I searched through the whole video to find that reference)
  Clearly I haven’t decided yet.
• The Zygons are in possession of ‘the Moment’ – the Doctor hid it there
• IF we do see the Silence they will be presented under different circumstances – maybe assisting a cause of the Doctor in the long run
• The Doctor has to relive and slightly change his own past to escape? Presuming all is flux because he is in his own time stream. Then again – that would be leaning on JTTCOTT
• My build up expectations will disappoint me.
• Clara will not be related to the Doctor – that thought is somehow revolting to me
• Clara is in some way connected to River – They use the same expressions for crying out loud. I hope do I get around making a list. I felt constantly reminded of River in the second half of season 7
• I think the regeneration limit is a given
• I agree that the Zygons themselves will not be super improtant

I do understand that I am alone in thinking of “The moment” as important for the 50th. But since this website is all for bonkers theorizing, I will stick with it. I might add more to the list later on.

@whohar

Doesn’t it often start as namedropping and then becomes something more? The fall of the 11th, or Jim the Fish, hidden in plain side in the Medusa cascade… I’m fine with mentioning things and explaining them later, planting ideas so they can be picked up as loose ends later. It was kind of necessary for the dialog you refer to though. He had to provide evidence why the Time War was so devastating.
But I see your point of view. I hope we agree that it is nice not to think uni-solo because there would be nothing left to discuss in this fabulous place.
It is just that there is no other thing I would put in the category of “knowledge that must never be spoken”.

I know that quite a lot of you didn’t like ROA because Clara saved the day. Well, now we know why, don’t we? I do love 11s speech and this video is a salute to 50 years of Doctor Who (including old Who). Just don’t watch it if you don’t like ROA.

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@blenkinsopthebrave – Well done on kickstarting the final lap of theorising.

• Time Lock – just to be controversial I think it will stay in place, but I think @bluesqueakpip might be on to something re rescuing Gallifrey’s children (who could have the potential to become a new (and different) set of TimeLords in years to come). Gallifrey and the Time War will feature, but as flashbacks

• HurtDr – sticking with him being Dr Zero, the one that kicked it all off – the Policeman (or The Judge?) – the reason Hartnell felt he had to leave. (HurtDr colluded with Rassilon in getting Omega stuck in the Black Hole, meaning the Time Lords’ power is built on a similar premise to the Beast Below.  Our Doctor has to resolve that, with the threat that he will no longer be able to timetravel

• Ha! I can’t even decide if Eleven and Clara will still be in the timestream – but I tend to think not. The 50th really has to be more or less stand alone. They’ve had over 6 months to get out of that bloody timestream (which I see as more of a dream state or an echo than a real place – and we’re told it’s disinegrating; the Doctors we see in it are mostly like ghosts; HurtDr is newly released from behind Eleven’s mental block so seems clearer. Is he talking to Matt though or just to himself?  I think they will have left Trenzalore (tho with its big ominous threat still hanging over them)).

• HurtDr – I hanker after the 3 into 1 solution (3 Doctors, seperate like the 3 parts of the programme itself (BG, AG and the bit we don’t talk about), brought together in a blast of energy which results in Capaldi striding forth with a new set of regenerations! The Power of 3!).  That may be too much haha but I do think part of the task facing the Doctor will be that he has to make peace with HurtDr, reincorporate him into the Doctor fold.

• Agree with those above who say that the Zygons probably aren’t the main foe, but will be part of the “background colour”.  I also think there will be more previous Doctors referenced than we’re led to believe, and lots of little refs to history, as in NotD. There’s a lot of previous Doctors “doing a Tennant” in their level of protest at apparently not having been asked. I don’t believe any of them.

• Day of the Doctor – The 50/900 years in a day theory – the Doctors have all been on a massive timeout (from Hartnell to Smith) till he returns to the time he left, to resolve the problem of HurtDr.

• And yes a big reboot, but not so as to negate the previous history – just to change the way we look at it (like turning the telescope the right way round)

• River will be back (but hopefully still with some mystery, so we can still see her with Capaldi);  She/Clara/Amy connected (not necessarily my preferred solution but there are too many “impossibles” about each of them to be ignored)

• The resolution is going to result in setting up the loss of/sacrifice by Matt (and yes, it might carry over to the Xmas one)

Finally, Mr B’s

It will be brilliant, and we will want more. Immediately.

Yes to that

 

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Oh, and there will be a bigger Big Bad than we’ve been aware of, who’s been lurking in the background for quite a while…

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

What is this “The Moment” thing? Where did it come from?

[janetteB @janetteb]

I have scribbled down a few ideas. (Have been rather distracted lately with recalictrant teenager doing exams etc.)

• I think that the special will deal with the time war but will take the concept into entirely new directions. We will find out that “it does not mean what we thought it means” because Moffat likes to turn literal meanings on their heads.
• I think the special will also cover the first Doctor and the reason he left Gallifrey, tying the future to the past and Hurt may well turn out to be Doctor Zero.
• Despite being Doctor Zero I think the entire story might take place in an alternate time line. Perhaps one that the Doctor rejected by running from Gallifrey. (I know I am getting tangled up in knots with this but here goes.) Maybe Hurt is the Doctor that would have been had he not run off in the Tardis or had he taken a different Tardis. He is not evil or bad, just pragmatic.
• I think that the Doctor and Clara will undo some of the harm done by the Hurt Dr by rescuing the Children of Gallifrey and maybe the untitled civilians but the Time Lords will remain locked away. (Amusingly that would include Leela. Would be a lovely surprise if she was in the story but I’m not expecting it.)
• I expect that we are going to find out more about Clara but I don’t think she is the Doctor’s daughter. Too much snogging and short skirt smirks for that. I would not be surprised however to find out that Clara has some link to Gallifrey or his past.
• We will find out what happens on the fields of Trenzalore and possibly what occurs in the Gamma Forests.
• The Silence will Fall. That might mean several things however. That silence falls across the universe due to the death of the Doctor but that has been done, several times now. Silence might fall as a result of the GI to be lifted by the joint endeavours of Doctors 10 & 11 or The Silence will fall due to the actions of said Doctors.
• The limit on regenerations will be lifted in a novel and amusing way.
• Zygons will be important simply because we all expect that they won’t. They will be working for the G.I or whoever the “Big Bad” is because of their shape shifting ability. Zygons as big rubbery monsters are naff but zygons as humans are truely scary because you don’t know whom to trust. You can even trust that the Doctor is the Doctor or Clara is Clara.
• Some of hte action will take place on earth as we know that U.N.I.T. will be involved. or a Zygon copy at least.
• And that is all for now. I am certain I will think of more or change my mind at least five times before the 23rd.

Cheers

Janette

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@pedant

I was wondering about “the Moment” as well.  Have we missed something?

@janetteb

With you on Zygons, but they’re not going to be the Big Big Bad, just cos they’ve been trailed so much!

[WhoHar @whohar]

@timeloop

As Elwood P Dowd said in Harvey “An element of conflict in any discussion is a very good thing. It shows everybody’s taking part and nobody’s left out. I like that.”

I don’t necessarily expect agreement with my pov, as it’s just that: my pov. I’m all for seeding a good plot point early on – there’s nothing like rewatching an old ep and then going “Oh, so that’s what that reference meant, how delightful”. I just don’t think “The Moment” is it.

One of the few to like RoA btw.

@blenkinsopthebrave

What I think, rather than what I would necessarily like:

1. Doc Hurt will be between 8 & 9 and possibly post Time War. I don’t think the Time War will be seen in any kind of detail.

2. There will be some BG Docs in there, somehow.

3. I suspect a McGann-Hurt doctor regeneration but perhaps only early on.

4. Something to link back to the first episode (or pre-first episode)

5. Clara isn’t revealed as Susan (or her mother or grandmother etc) in this episode.

6. Possible surprise regen into Capaldi.

7. Lee Harvey Oswald is a Zygon assassin, who, due to problems with the sights on his rifle, kills JFK by mistake instead of his intended Zygon target who is disguised as Jackie. In his haste to escape capture, LHO is disorientated and repeatedly bangs into the walls of the Texas School Book Depository, finally breaking a wall at the 4th attempt.

8. Moffat will pull something out of the hat.

[WhoHar @whohar]

9. At this stage, I’m not ruling anything out

(C) WhoHar 2013

[WhoHar @whohar]

@pedant @scaryb

It was a brIef reference in The End of Time where Doc10 says he used it to end the Time War. No other details are mentioned in the show but it has been referenced in other media as some kind of weapon:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Moment

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@pedant @scaryb

It is also explained by the Timelords in the same episode @whohar mentioned (copied from here)

RASSILON: What news of the Doctor?
CHANCELLOR: Disappeared, my Lord President.
PARTISAN: (a woman) But we know his intention. He still possesses the Moment, and he’ll use it to destroy Daleks and Time Lords alike.
CHANCELLOR: The Visionary confirms it.
(The Visionary is the woman at the end of the table. She has henna tattoos on her face and hands.)
VISIONARY: Ending, burning, falling. All of it falling. The black and pitch and screaming fire, so burning.
CHANCELLOR: All of her prophecies say the same. That this is the last day of the Time War. That Gallifrey falls. That we die, today.
VISIONARY: Ending. Ending. Ending. Ending!
PARTISAN: Perhaps it’s time. This is only the furthest edge of the Time War. But at its heart, millions die every second, lost in bloodlust and insanity. With time itself resurrecting them, to find new ways of dying over and over again. A travesty of life. Isn’t it better to end it, at last?
RASSILON: Thank you for your opinion.

AND in the Doctor’s Wife there is this:

HOUSE [OC]: We are in your universe now, Doctor. Why should it matter to me in which room you die? I can kill you just as easily here as anywhere. Fear me. I’ve killed hundreds of Time Lords.
DOCTOR: Fear me. I’ve killed all of them.

A Youtube comment of the video I posted in fan creativity expands on the idea: ” rmader989

He didn’t just let them die, he killed them all on purpose. Rassilon had convinced the Time Lords that the only way to win the Time War was to activate a weapon that would negate existence, turning the Time Lords into energy beings and destroying the rest of the universe, all of time and space. The Doctor came into possession of a thought-weapon called “The Moment” When he learned of Rassilon’s plan, he placed a time-lock on the time-war and used The Moment to kill everything inside. ”

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Ah right. So apparently a combination of non-canonical fanwank and fanfic.

(As you may gather, I don’t look at and have no interest in fanfic)

It would take spectacular gymnastics to shoe-horn House into this, given that his MO was clearly explained in-show.

I’m pretty sure @whohar is right on the money with Number 7.

[Anonymous @]

Think I have to agree with @pedant that The Moment is almost certainly not going to appear in any more than the throwaway comments that it has done in the past. It’s far, far too fanboy. I think a pretty safe rule of thumb is that if it hasn’t appeared in the programme and been significantly signposted in such then it’s not going to make a sudden appearance now…

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whohar Thanks

Ah, that Moment. I always thought that had been dealt with when the TimeLords reappeared ie they were caught in it and Tennant finally destroyed it. No, I don’t hink it’ll come back.

I agree with @jimthefish and those above who reckon most of the references will be from Moffat era, with loving refs to the history of the show (as inNotD).

And I think WhoHar is spot on with 7 (brilliant!), 8 AND, especially, 9

🙂

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@jimthefish @scaryb

Of course, there is an interesting ontological question of when bonkers theorising becomes fanfic…

(My own view is that the solution lies entirely in understanding the position of the tongue relative to the cheek.)

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Ahem. Hashtags. It’s Tinkerbell time…

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@pedant My first part was no fanfic. It was a transcript of the actual episodes.

I am quite astonished that the idea is attacked so much. It is just as likely as Omega being the Big Bad or Susan coming back.

@jimthefish In which way is it fanboy? My definition of fanboy is someone who likes everything from one certain source without ever challenging it. For example Apple fanboys and every Apple product ever produced. I do not think that is quite it, do you?
I do agree that it might turn out wrong and is highly unlikely. But so have been other theories in this forum.

I dare all of you to come up with something that fits “knowledge that must never be spoken”

[Nick @nick]

@timeloop

what idea was attacked ? I’ve looked back over the posts and its not obvious to me (sorry).

I hadn’t appreciated everything in the transcript when I watched the episode way back when, but this surely kills off any idea that Hurt Doctor can be anything but the Doctor who ended the Time War surely?

Thanks for a timely reminder.

Nick

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@nick I was talking about ‘The Moment’.
Well thanks anyway for giving me some perspective then. Really wholeheartedly appreciated. Maybe because it is the first one I made up and I am overreacting…?

[Anonymous @]

@timeloop —

Please don’t think of it as an attack because it absolutely wasn’t. No offence was intended whatsoever — honest! And it’s a fine theory, which is pretty much what we’re here for, after all. I just don’t personally think it’s somewhere the show will go, that’s all.

And you’re right, it’s no more outlandish or less viable than Susan or Omega showing up. And the reason I think that none of those will show up in other than a namecheck in the script is that it requires too detailed a reading and/or knowledge of the show in order for them to work. That’s all I meant by ‘fan boy’ really. I wasn’t using it in the Apple sense of the word (I reserve the word fanboi for that, actually.)

A general rule of thumb I think is that if Linda Lee and her contemporaries are likely to be confused by the reference then it won’t be significant part of the plot. The mentions of The Moment in the series are a prime example of this. They’re put in to demonstrate that both RTD and Moffatt are genuine fans and are paying lip service to the show’s history and fan community. But they won’t be allowed to be key mechanisms of the plot. That way madness, or at least the JNT era, lies.

This is especially true of the anniversary episode which is such an event piece that I think it will be intended to cater for the drive-by viewer as well. A plot that hinged on decades-old continuity porn would go down like a lead balloon, I think…

But what the hell do I know? The Big Bad behind the Silence et al could be Omega in league with the Quarks and the Trods, using a super-weapon built from The Moment, The Hand of Omega and the Key to Time and it will only be by reviving past incarnations and housing them in the final incarnation of Susan that disaster can be averted. But seriously, it’s just my take on the show and what I think we’ll see in just over two weeks (two weeks!!!!) time. I say let the theories be as outlandish as they can in the final run-up to the episode itself…

Good point about the ‘knowledge that must never be spoken’ line. Gotta admit I’m totally stumped on that one.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Any answers to questions provided will be replaced by at least 2 new questions each. Moffat maintains mystery…

 

The villain will most likely be defeated by the 4th wall interaction of #SaveTheDay posts, mostly from Boyzone fans…

[Nick @nick]

@timeloop

I’m sure @wolfweed can confirm this “Moment” exists as he and I briefly discussed it a while back (although it was in context of a Who comic strip). I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in this though as a lot is probably due to short replies (which can be misconstrued) and mis-understandings from what I read 🙂 .

Personal view:

Whilst I enjoy reading the various theories and posts here (and agree with many of the points as they do appear valid based on what we’ve seen to date) I thoroughly expect Moffat to surprise and wow us (at least visually and emotionally although I’m less convinced the underlying plotting will be up to much based on his track record to date) but ultimately Moffat will deliver what we don’t expect to see as the heart of the story.

My guess is that whilst we’ll see glimpses of the Time War (the picture releases seem to tell us this) and there’ll be references to the (Hurt ?) Doctor genocide act (the use of the Moment) I’m not sure we’ll get much Time War proper content. Many here, want the timelock to stay in place (for good narrative reasons – bringing back the timelords could be problematic) so I’m not sure that the genocide act and the timelock will be undone. I think it could well be modified though (to rehabilitate Hurt (?) Doctor) perhaps along the lines of @Bluesqueakpips time children idea.

Either in the 50th or in the Christmas show, the Doctor’s character (and the series in a way) will be reset back to something closer to BG Who and the current lonely god/madman in a box or whatever phrase best sums up AG Who to date will pass into history with something new to replace it for Capaldi (with revised regeneration cycle). The “how” remains a mystery for me.

Cheers

Nick

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

OK, time for me to spin the roulette wheel of plot points! Fundamentally I think this will be as stand-alone as possible while carrying on certain underlying themes about the mythology of the Doctor. I think the ramifications of this and the earlier series will play into the Christmas special though.

1. Personally, I still think that Doctor Hurt is a missing link between 8 & 9. The Time Lord usually referred to as the Doctor who didn’t deserve the name as he broke the promise during the Time War. The reason I like this is that it serves two purposes:

• It lets you consider what the promise is, and I will therefore return to my musings on the Hippocratic oath, to keep them from harm and injustice. The Doctor took the name to reflect that sentiment, not realising that it was his actions that would inspire the “Name of The Doctor” in the first place. Very circuitous. It’s also a nice idea to hang on why the TARDIS also looks like a Police Box. You’d always hope that the occupant of one of those would keep you from harm and injustice. The Doctor renews his vow.

• It brings you closer to the notional regeneration limit, and enables stories/future stories about that. I originally started by thinking Capaldi will be the “last” regeneration, but I can’t help thinking if he wanted it, SM could make Matt the last by introducing DoctorHurt and counting the metacrisis Doctor at the end of Series 4. If you wanted to do a story of overcoming the thirteen lives rule, and avoid the Doctor seeking immortality (which only bad and mad people do) why not thrust it upon him unexpectedly? “Eleven” thinks it’s the end – surprisingly regenerates and the next Doctor has an arc of discovery about why that happened? This would also neatly get us past the entire Valeyard thing – it may have been potential once but, you know, it never happened. I will pop a cork from the champagne bottle.

2. The Trenzalore end point will be definitely be re-written.

3. In this examination of the Doctors life and end-points, the BG Doctors will appear in voice only. This will be a meta-textual joke that the old incarnations are still with us where available, and continue adventures in the audio format.

4. Clara will recognise Rose as the woman who gave her the Doctors number in the shop. Rose will not recognise her, but after swapping some stories, Clara will ask her to go back in time and give her the number. Like Rose with Bad Wolf, she creates herself.

5. I will be wrong again. In the roulette wheel of plot points, the house (SM) always wins.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@nick – @timeloop has transcribed the ‘on screen’ mention of the Moment in post #20123.

We might know what it is in ‘non canon’ media but for all we know the tv version is a big hatstand that Dr Hurt bludgeons TLs & daleks to death with.

No reason to see it in TDOTD unless they’re going to explain certain events of The Time War…

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@whohar

7. Lee Harvey Oswald is a Zygon assassin, who, due to problems with the sights on his rifle, kills JFK by mistake instead of his intended Zygon target who is disguised as Jackie. In his haste to escape capture, LHO is disorientated and repeatedly bangs into the walls of the Texas School Book Depository, finally breaking a wall at the 4th attempt.

That is just too brilliant for words!

@pedant

Of course, there is an interesting ontological question of when bonkers theorising becomes fanfic…

(My own view is that the solution lies entirely in understanding the position of the tongue relative to the cheek.)

Exactly! And @whohar‘s #7 occupies that “Moment” of genius between tongue and cheek.

*Now to go off and try and find a spot for the claim made in the Tessalector (“Time can be re-written; remember Kennedy”), Clara’s family name (Oswald), and…if only it were possible…Canton*

[Anonymous @]

@whohar

7. Lee Harvey Oswald is a Zygon assassin, who, due to problems with the sights on his rifle, kills JFK by mistake instead of his intended Zygon target who is disguised as Jackie.

Great theory. An alternate take on this is that LHO is a Zygon assassin whose target was actually The Doctor. We know The Doctor was in Dallas thanks to that dodgy photo that Clive had in ‘Rose’.

@blenkinsopthebrave

I think it’s unlikely Canton will be in the 50th 🙁 That said, Mark Sheppard is very keen to return. Maybe, if we wish really, really hard he’ll turn up in Series 8.

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