The Girl Who Died

[ichabod @ichabod]

@jimthefish  On which note, I for one am very glad that she didn’t turn out to be Susan, or Jenny, or Romana or whoever.

Me too.  Too much backstory, better to move on to something new, IMO.  @denvaldron  Thanks for the Viking overview — densely packed and concise; only what, exactly, does kaput mean in this context?  A swift and somewhat catastrophic curtailment of their ventures abroad and a contraction of population into the core of what goes on to become a northern kingdom for Hamlet and his uncle to quarrel over?  Or maybe a slow decline?

@mirime  The Doctor seemed to recognise Ashildr in some way, maybe that’s why. Maybe it was, in a sense, ‘supposed’ to happen, perhaps part of some bigger loop we can’t see yet?

Only it seems to be something timey wimey that *he* isn’t aware of either, because he keeps squinting back at Ashildr, trying to place her and failing, but knowing he knows her from *some-when*.

@jphamlore  It’s the ancient astronaut theory applied to the Dr Who universe. Only the Time Lords are the ancient astronauts. Because otherwise they cannot come back, so they must influence humans as spirit beings.

Wow, that’s a beauty — it doesn’t sit right for me because I just can’t see the TLs in general as that, um, competent, really.  I always felt they were a bunch of pompous clowns who would be right at home in the US House of Representatives, so if your theory is true, I’ll have to suppose that the TLs have matured a whole lot during their exile in the pocket universe (only aren’t they frozen in there — precisely unable to mature, or do anything else?  Oh.  Except give 11 a new set of Doctor-lives through a crack in the wall — oh, oh; ichi is lost in here, is this a pocket universe or something?).

But this, I absolutely get:  … Ashildr is important because even before she met the Doctor and Clara she was a born dreamer and creator of stories. She is a future shaman.  Whoever controls the story controls what can happen   — or what people perceive as happening, anyway.

and thanks for Aphra Ben, a fairly obscure reference in our day.  From the trailer, it seems Ashildr is an outlaw in 18th c England, with some kind of gang of her own — a reasonable response to centuries of managing as a female in societies in which you stand a pretty good chance of being treated as a cross between a slave and breeding stock unless you’re an aristocrat, which would be quite a coup to pull off.  But she started out with shamanic inklings, so maybe she’s developed defenses using more developed forms of special powers.

@221badwulf  I found it jarring that the Doctor had such a giant reaction to Ashildr dying, yet in the previous episode seemed to not really care if O’Donnell died..  

Einar and his special daughter Ashildr are a mirror of Doctor and he beloved “duty of care” protege, so the emotional resonances — reenforced by a couple of jolts of primal baby love energy — overpower the Doctor’s normal caution and amplify his need to protect (in this case, resurrect) a child who’s died in the execution of his plan.  That’s how I see it, anyway.  And there’s that still hidden connection between Ashildr and himself maybe at work as well.  His rationality and (even) cynicism is simply overridden for a moment — and then it’s too late to stop what he’s started, so he completes it by giving Einar the other chip, and acknowledges that yup, this rash did will indeed come back to bite him — whenever *she* pleases.

@blenkinsopthebrave  he was shouting at the Time Lords, but that he was alluding to The War Games, when the Time Lords punish him (by giving him a new face) for interfering in the life and death of others too much.  (and observations on trousers).

Oh no!  I didn’t make the connection: when the Doctor gets all defiant like that, he knows what he’s risking — obliteration by the TLs and a different bloke walks away (in those trousers, too).  That’s pretty risky.  You’d almost think he was Clara, in a reckless mood . . .

@mersey   She was strong when she started and now she’s cracked. Did you see in her eyes? ‘Why didn’t you give it to me’ look. She wants to be immortal! She wants to accompany the Doctor forever! You can say that’s her development (reverse I think).

I agree on Clara’s progression from plot pawn through angry partner to outwardly strong and decisive moved by her own will, not as an empty plot pawn — but cracked and broken inside by losses she hasn’t gotten over yet.  I’m not at all sure she wants to travel with the Doctor forever, or be immortal.  She’s suffering too much.  What if she’s immortal and somebody succeeds in actually killing the Doctor?  Then she’s left on her own forever, or as good as.  That line from Before the Flood, don’t you dare die on me, you do that with the next one, not me — she doesn’t see herself as being able to sustain the I’m-together act indefinitely, and I think she’d be much more accepting of her own death than she could be of the Doctor’s.

@purofilion  Again, because oh yes, I could see this happening (well it sort of did, to 11 on his cloud) to *this* TL, anyway: And death is his highway, it’s where he walks, I guess. No wonder he feels responsible for all those people, for the “loss” -and that he’s tired of it. I can see where TLs might simply lay down their fez’, chequered trousers, bow ties and say “it’s over for me now.”

Death is his highway . . . nice.  The cured wanderer again . . . Wherever he goes, some people die sooner than they would have, some later.  Wherever he doesn’t go, they die there too.  Hey, who’s stepped out of their normal good cheer around here now?  Huggums.

@lisa  http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-10-17/what-does-the-name-ashildr-reveal-about-maisie-williamss-doctor-who-character

Ha!  Spicy, that.  Pretty soon “the last of the Time Lords” might have enough near-immortal company to start his own village . . .

 

 

[Anonymous @]

@denvaldron

I think the electric eels were plausible. We had great (but bloomin) careful fun with them in Bavaria. They were really ruining certain of the town’s carp population – real tourist boon from that.

I know you were trying to be brief: believe me, when trying to summarise the arrival of Marxism to people and explain cultural reasons for the development of the KGB, I find myself having great difficulty but I really do appreciate the effort you went to: certainly I had no idea that the women would be expected to fight, but in understanding the feudal system and how the men were off doing ‘their thing’ women, the matriarchs, would have to step up.

@tommo welcome to the Forum! Hope you have a great time here: you can see that we all do. 🙂

“run. run you clever boy and remember ME” ? I think that on re-play she says it without the “me” -in The Dalek Asylum at least.

Kindest, Puro

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

@purofilion I really have to wonder if you were dealing with Electric Eels rather than regular Eels or another species. Electric Eels do not breed in captivity, and from my understanding, occupy only shallow, silty/cloudy lakes and ponds in a narrow region of the tropics of the new world – the Amazon and Orinoco, pretty close to the equator. I think European waters would just be too cold for them. They aren’t actually true eels. Technically, they’re a relative of the knifefish, although they occupy their own family. They’re only distantly related if at all to the Electric Ray which is a deepwater coastal fish, and the Electric Catfish, which is found in the Nile and Tropical Africa.

A google search did find numerous references to Freshwater eels in Bavaria, known as Anguillid Eels or European Eels. Apparently, they’re quite tasty. The region where I’m from in Canada is adjacent to a place called Eel River, with community names like Eel River Bar, Eel River Crossing. They were a delicacy. I remember as a kid, I caught an Eel once and kept it alive in the bathtub for a few hours before my mother made me put it back. No regular eel is electric. Eels and Electric Eels are as different as Elephants and Elephant Seals, or Voodoo Zombies and Flesh Eating Zombies, or Rhinoceros and Rhinoceros Beetles. Don’t be fooled by the naming similarity.

[Anonymous @]

@ichabod

Was I cheery? Am I? 🙂 I often don’t feel that way, but it’s a good way to be -to feel and then act the way you want to be (rather Zen, I suppose!). I also like “Time as the monster” because it can be, can’t it?

Even just the way women’s cosmetic products for anti-aging are worshipped -youth as the new ‘god;’ as religion, which I why it’s great that the Doctor often says “oh this is Clara, she’s not as old as she looks!” (promptly gets smacked on arm). Age to him is completely different. We are, as you say, mayflies to the TLs.

It makes sense then that the Doctor (in this incarnation) may have a “pretty young lass” as companion but he doesn’t necessarily see that -although there was that difficult confession where he had to say (he was Twelve by then) “I’m not your boyfriend” and when Clara says “Oh I never meant….” Twelve interrupts with: “I never said it was your mistake” -or something along those lines. So, who knows what he might have felt? Residual feelings from a younger, humanoid and dashing young man playing at being Clara’s boyfriend at Christmas with grandma sitting beside him and flirting – before he’s off again?

[Anonymous @]

@denvaldron

I know all this. But I surrender.  Never mind we were wearing protective wear for electric eels and water in and around parts of what was Czechoslovakia is continually fed by hot springs –so it’s warm – it has a tropical undercurrent. 🙂

Don’t be fooled by the naming similarity. What similarity? The word eel? 🙂 Dewd!

Also, Wikipedia and Google -not always the best authority. I find experience often is: particularly with native fishermen

Anyway, moving on

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

@ichabod Hmmm. Kaput. Well, in geological terms everything is pretty fast and shocking when you get to human beings. But the decline of the Norse… that took place in different ways, over decades or a century or two. It’s kind of hard to fix. The Newfoundland settlement at L’Anse au Meadows (sic) seems to have been abandoned quickly. It took Greenland longer to die off, and when it finally did, no one noticed. The Viking period is generally assumed to have lasted about 300 years from the 8th to the 11th centuries. But raids were still going on, if petering out in the 12th century. And they were going on crusades as late as the 13th century. The Viking Era matches up loosely with the Medieval Warm period, from roughly 950 to 1250. And the decline seems to coincide with the Little Ice Age, commonly beginning around 1400. I think climactic shifts in northerly regions show up earlier.

In any event, that wasn’t the end for the Norse people. The Norwegians suffered the worst with population declines and increasing irrelevance. Sweden and Denmark became ascendant. Both got heavily involved with Germany. For a time, all the Scandinavian states were united in the Kalmar Union. Then towards the middle ages, Sweden got imperial on its own and went toe to toe with Russia? Were they still all Vikings? Well, descendants of the Vikings – Christianity had taken over, the technology had changed, the economy had changed. I think that really, what happened was that in invading Europe, they became European, and became a part of the politics and lifeblood of the continent, and as the little ice age wore on, they were situated to become a smaller and smaller part of it. History is a moving target.,

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

@purofilion. I blame the Monk. Or the Rani. Or I just accept that the Doctor Who universe is just not the same place as our universe.

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

@purofilion Dude, by now, you should know what I am like. I am insanely detail oriented and massively inclined towards precision. That translates to being a giant pain in the ass. But I don’t know any other way to be. And frankly, I just buried my father less than a week ago so I’m not really enthralled with or invested in the whole social nuance thing, that takes more energy than I have. So if I’m getting on your nerves, sorry about that. But it’s too much energy to avoid being me.

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here is something for this forum, especially those who have been talking about tarot.

Aphra Behn wrote often under the pseudonym “Astrea,” that is a reference to the Greek goddess Astraea (“star maiden”) who was very popular in literature around that time.  According to the Wikipedia entry on her,

In the Tarot, the 8th card, Justice, with a figure of Justitia, can thus be considered related to the figure of Astraea on historical iconographic grounds.

According to descriptions such as this of Justice:

http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-cards/justice/

It is the card of sorrow as well as of deeper satisfaction … It is also the card of the secret, or hidden.

[Anonymous @]

@denvaldron

I recall you mentioning a while ago your father was ill. I am so sorry to hear of your loss.

We all have our burdens to bear. I’m writing at the mo from hospital where I spend a good 3-4 days per week so I can understand how hard it is to escape one’s self in times of serious difficulty.

You certainly have an enormous  burden and I hope you can comfort those around you and those about you can comfort you in return.  I’m sure you have humour when you need to have it -and a distraction in the form of this little Forum is an excellent place to find that.

I shall find something in the Music Thread for you

Kindest and prayers,

Puro.

[lisa @lisa]

Have we all noticed how the Doctor has been somewhat reckless? In Witch’s Familiar he uses a
lot of regeneration energy up in the Davros trap and I think he knew that was coming. Now he
is bringing back the dead. This is something I expect to see from Missy. In before
gap Who maybe I’m wrong but it seems the Doctor would often ask himself if he had the right
to change things. So that’s where the face comes in. To remind himself that recklessness
is going to come back and bite him. In some of the previous posts this has been mentioned.
So is this how things change with Clara. Maybe its not about her changing into a hybrid or
any of the Clara possibilities we have shared. Maybe its about the Doctor. He’s a Doctor
showing more of his darkness. “Am I a good man’. He seems unsettled and burdened. I
just wonder if Clara’s end might be because of a situation that is mismanaged by the Doctor.
I wonder if there are clues going in that direction? This ‘burden of care’ he mentions a lot
now. I think he is wondering going forward that he will not be able to control her. So will
he let something happen and not keep her safe? I think its reasonable to consider suspecting his
judgments in respect to Clara’s end.

[lisa @lisa]

@denvaldron Deepest condolences

[ichabod @ichabod]

@purofilion   Oh, yes, there was some erotic tension between S7 Clara and 11, but it had the weight of  “dalliance” — just funnin’ around on the surface of a connection that was way deeper than that per “my Impossible Girl”.  12 in S8 just dumped the flirty human trimmings and zeroed in on the central matter, a strong but very unequal pairing up blazing away under all the surface doings and sometimes right up through them (think conversation in the corridor in Mummy; no, most of Mummy).

In fact, I think 12 has rebelled here in a much crucial than any other defiance he’s offered: he’s formed exactly the kind of age-old friendship that Missy described re TLs, but he’s formed it with a human mayfly.  Sure, there’s an erotic component, as there is with the Missy/Doctor TL bond, but that component is casual, minor even, a transitory (to TLs) spark of attraction between physical bodies.  These people regenerate into new bodies, after all, while the core identity remains, so how important to them are those individual bodies and their flitting bio-chemical reactions?

So when 12 says “I’m not your boyfriend”, he means “Not only am I not your boyfriend — I’m so far beyond being your boyfriend, suitor, or bed-mate, that you can’t even imagine it [though Missy could]; which is awkward, because you’re still at boyfriend/girlfriend levels.  But I’m hoping you’ll catch up, somehow.”  Meanwhile, by and large it’s him doing the heavy lifting, keeping focus, not giving up even in the face of Danny, alive or dead.

Sometimes S8 Clara does catch up, for a bit, in those moments of light touches, shared glances, quiet thinking together without talking.  Maybe; who knows?  But the answer matters to her future.

If Clara is just Clara, a human woman with a weirdly complicated background, “the puppy” of Missy’s sneer, she’ll never catch up and become an equal partner in a TL type friendship, though she could die trying.  The species inequality isn’t immutable, exactly, but it’s pretty rigid: it’s why companions who are still human leave the Doctor.  On the other hand, if Clara is still in some way the Impossible Girl (whatever that meant), or if she’s a hybrid something-or-other, or if Ashildr gives her the second repair patch, then all bets are off.  Then it’s TL + (human/X), the second term being (so far) unknown to everybody concerned, including the Doctor, and us.  I think a regular (if  exceptionally capable) human Clara, which is what we seem to have now in S9, will die.  The exit of Clara/X? Anything is possible.

[lisa @lisa]

So is it ‘run you clever boy and remember me’ as in never forget what you did to me
so it wont happen to anyone one else?

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

@denvaldron: Condolences, you are always welcome here among us.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@denvaldron  Thanks for the extended take on the decline of the Viking/Norse culture — absorption as a far corner of Europe sounds about right.

I am sorry to hear about your father’s death.  I hope you’re able to take some rest when and as you can.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@lisa  This ‘burden of care’ he mentions a lot (the phrase is “a duty of care”, UK rather than US, and is about parental or state guardianship of minors, I think — but probably other situations of responsibility as well, like for elders)
now. I think he is wondering going forward that he will not be able to control her. So will he let something happen and not keep her safe? I think its reasonable to consider suspecting his judgments in respect to Clara’s end.

I agree; I think he’s also very worried now, post “Girl”, about whether he can control *himself*, meaning controlling defiant and passionate impulses to mess around with time in ways he’s not “supposed to”, and hat way somehow putting Clara in more danger than either he or she can handle.  It’s an increasingly risky situation with *both* of them so volatile now.  His “rebel” impulses, rooted in compassion, are manifesting in dangerous ways.  He just replaced Ashildr’s mortal death with conditional immortality — not what the Fisher King did to his ghost people, but an action of the same transgressive order: screwing with life and death.  Clara looks to me to be on the edge, inwardly, of dashing into some lethal situation not meaning to come out of it again, just to end the strain of not knowing whether she can control the Doctor — that is, keep him alive (and sufficiently unchanged) to make it worthwhile to her to stay alive herself.

 

[CountScarlioni @countscarlioni]

Perhaps out of the mist it’s possible to glimpse an arc.

If in The Woman Woman Who Lived the Doctor realises he indeed made a “terrible mistake” (his words) in letting Ashildr become “functionally immortal” so that she could become a tidal wave of mayhem rather than a mere benign ripple in time, then later the Doctor will be in what will be for him an impossible situation if Clara dies in Face the Raven. Does the Doctor give her the third chip he (presumably) took from inside the helmets of the Mire, thereby making her “functionally immortal,”  or does he let her die? But if he gives her the chip, Clara too has the potential to become another destructive tidal wave. The Doctor, as he shouts at the end of The Girl Who Died, can do anything, but here he grasps, after Ashildr has hugely sharpened his understanding of this, he shouldn’t save Clara.  No wonder the Doctor has to go off by himself for an entire episode after Face the Raven in Heaven Sent.

After a third viewing, another call back to a BG Doctor, this time the seventh. From the Doctor at the end of the episode “Time will tell. It always does.” This is from (after a bit of research via wikipedia), Remembrance of the Daleks. (Apologies if this has already been noted; I’m behind with reading the postings)

<b>Ace</b>: Doctor. We did good, didn’t we?

<b>The Seventh Doctor</b>: Perhaps. Time will tell. It always does.

 

@blenkinsopthebrave I’m  delighted there is another trouser speculator! Excellent pointer to the second Doctor’s trousers in The War Games. If they had been Hartnell pants, I suppose the obvious link would be to The Time Meddler, which even has vikings. Now however the boot (or trousers) are on the other foot (leg) as it’s the Doctor who is meddling dangerously in time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here is another candidate for a subsequent life of Ashildr: Emelie du Chatelet, French, supposedly 1706 – 1749.

One of Aphra Behn’s translations was of a French popularization of astronomy, A Discovery of New Worlds.  As Emelie du Chatelet, Ashildr would have had the opportunity to converse with many of the leading French minds of that time including Voltaire who at least according to Wikipedia was one of her lovers.  One of her most noted feats was translating into French Isaac Newton’s Principia Mathematica.

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Here is my third candidate for the subsequent life of Ashildr: Madame de Stael, French, 1766 – 1816.  Her works helped to lay to foundations of Romanticism.  She is surprisingly often quoted to this day, such as:

One must choose in life between boredom and suffering.

[DenValdron @denvaldron]

@purofilion I’m sorry for whatever it is that has you hanging about in a hospital. I hope for a full and happy recovery for any party involved, or barring that, freedom from pain. As for my father = he fought cancer for 12 years, he lived the life he wanted, and when he passed there was no pain. There’s much worse things. Ultimately, death is what we live with, we get to endure the deaths of people around us, on the way to our own. Death is commonplace and ordinary and no big. Sadly, I can’t seem to help going a little bit insane, but I’m trying not to take it out on anyone or anything.

[Whisht @whisht]

So thanks to now knowing “hildr” means ‘war’ and thinking about the numerous Osgoods, Oswins etc could Maisie’s character actually become the Minister for War Hilda Ogden?

It would be a brave direction for Moffat but one I think he could pull off.

[Anonymous @]

@denvaldron

I understand. Death is a big thing, of course it is. But you say and think what you can in order to remain sane. To get thru the next day, the next night.

@whisht

that’s one giant but excellent leap! Ogden. Mmm. Well spotted, Whisht

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@bluesqueakpip

I think Gallifrey is already one of the entrants in the ‘a spaceman did it and ran away’ theory of human evolution, though I can’t quite recall which story.

Off hand, I can’t think of a story that suggested that, but it was stated in Underworld that they did go through a phase in ancient times of playing God with a race called Minyans, so it can’t be ruled out.

Doctor Who has so many beings and entities claiming credit for dabbling with our DNA and guiding our development (off the top of my head Daemons, Fendahl, Scaroth, Silence and I’m not even trying here) that it’s no wonder we’re a bit messed up as a species.

Hell, when Adric went joyriding in that space freighter and crashed into the Earth, he killed the Dinosaurs and opened up an evolutionary niche for us. Luckily for them, Homo Reptilia had been scared by a huge space egg moving into orbit and decamped downstairs for a bit of a kip before Adric’s high speed jinks.

You know, reading this, and fully acknowledging the absurdities of the show old and new, and that the Earth of the Universe the Doctor occupies is a bit different to ours, I can’t bring myself to get hung up on a Viking with a horned helmet, or the fact that its Northern Europe had electric eels.

Let’s be honest, Vikings having horned helmets in the Whoniverse is actual ‘canon’ for those keeping score on these things. (I actually think that’s what the trouser reference was about, to be honest).

[Starla @starla]

@whisht Thanks! ☺

[janetteB @janetteb]

Reading all the wonderful discussion here is every bit as good as watching the actual episode and certainly makes rewatching so much more rewarding.

I made notes, rather a lot of notes so here goes;

@lisa I agree re’ Ashildr and Arya from GoT being very similar, something that irritated me a little as the time though I also agree with @ichabod that Ashildr was a far deeper character. (I am not a fan of GoT either.)

I was going to comment on the helmets captured but @ozitenor was even more observant. ( I thought there were only two.)

@starla. That was a good theory. (unfortunately it was this afternoon when I noted that down and now I barely remember what your theory was but compliments are clearly deserved.)

@bendubz11 I like the idea of a Medusa link especially as the Medusa is very much topic of the moment in our household. R.2. (second son) has just made a 3d model of a Medusa head for yr 12 design.

Any mention of Oroborus always makes me think of Red Dwarf and Lister becoming his own father. Tempting to think that Clara might be her own mother but then that would make her father also her husband so I don’t think Doctor Who would go there.

@jimthefish. I would not want the show to dwell on past glories and nostalgia however occasionally referencing the past gives depth and continuity. As you might expect I disagree regarding Susan. I would not want her to return as a companion which is something that often seems to be suggested. I would however like to know what became of her, a Gallifreyan presumably with the ability to regenerate left on earth. As to Jenny, she has potential to be an interesting recurring character in the vein of River Song.

@mersey I am not sure that Clara would have been thinking about keeping the disk for herself. It can bring back the dead and I think that she still feels that the Doctor could have done something to revive Danny but didn’t.

After posting the other night I went to bed and realised just how silly my initial theory was. If Danny doesn’t die then Missy and her cyber army get to rule the earth. However I still suspect that Clara would revive Danny if she could find a way.

@phaseshift. Thank you thank you for posting that image. Something for all those who complained that BG Who would never have shown the Vikings wearing horned helmets..

Cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

Oh and I forgot to mention @bluesqueakpip and @scaryb who have both been doing sterling work over on the Guardian taking on the ARSE commenters.

Cheers

Janette

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@janetteb

Thank you for that. One of life’s little mysteries is why on earth I find myself arguing most firmly on the episodes I don’t like. 😉

Though truthfully, I think it’s because people often pick up on what I’d see as non-faults. The faults that the scriptwriters weren’t worried about because they’re things that can be made to work. Those eels, for example, which weren’t being presented as native to the local rivers.

The difference between destructive and constructive criticism: destructive criticism is where people dissect what went wrong. Constructive criticism is where people dissect what appears to be wrong in order to make the script work (or to learn how to make scripts work).

Constructive criticism is much harder. It’s easy to pull a script apart, especially if you don’t like the writer.

I’d disagree with @jimthefish – I think Mathieson had a story he enjoyed, but the main problem was that the story he enjoyed was about ten minutes too short. Even with all the arc-heavy stuff, he was staring at a plot of

1. Vikings capture Doctor and Clara
2. Viking village is, by a massive TARDIS shaped coincidence, raided by aliens
3. Village with no fighters left then declares war on raiders
4. Doctor tells them his solution – run.
5. He is persuaded to stay and help by the baby
6. Doctor’s problem is he has no plan – so comedy training scenes
7. Doctor realises what ‘fire in the water’ means and thinks up plan
8. Raiders defeated by being fooled into running away
9. Ashildr dies in battle
10. Doctor remembers Pompeii and therefore
11. Brings her back to life

Now, you look at that and you can see two script structure problems – one being that the prologue isn’t remotely connected to the main story and appears to be simply a way of having Clara wearing a spacesuit when the Mire come calling. Compare it with The Caretaker, for example, where Clara’s pre-titles adventures all progress the Clara-Danny subplot.

[I say ‘appears’ because the prologue may turn out to be important for Clara’s arc]

But the main problem is the giant black hole of item 6, where the Doctor can’t think of a plan and we wander off into the comedy training scenes because the Doctor hasn’t got a plan. Take out that bit (or shorten it drastically), and there’s a nicely structured ‘Viking’ plot.

I think the only problem with Jamie Mathieson’s Viking plot was that it came in way too short – so he, or maybe Steven Moffat resorted to the ever-available delaying tactic of the Doctor STILL not having a plan. And then started expanding those comedy training scenes…

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

This idea of an ordinary human who unexpectedly discovers they have immortality, but then has to experience the loneliness of over-and-over again outliving everyone they know, is exactly from the original Star Trek episode Requiem for Methusaleh, and is no doubt far older than that.

However in contrast to Star Trek’s character of Flint, who apparently lived lives of recognized creative greatness such as Leonardo da Vinci and Brahms, I think the second part has to show the character of Ashildr, a storyteller, being constrained by her being a woman in the times before now.  It is what would give the two-parter some real gravity saying something about the human condition.

I have identified at least three plausible candidates for who she could have posed as:  Aphra Behn (1640 – 1689), Emelie du Chatelet (1706 – 1749), and Madame de Stael (1766 – 1817).   It may be possible to interleave or replace one of these with another of the better known great English writers.  I do not think the Doctor’s giving Ashildr the gift of immortality will result in total tragedy.  I think he will find a way to inspire her to fight through the constraints of her time and place.

[DrBen @drben]

So much to say!  This was actually my favorite episode so far this season, and perhaps my favorite episode since Flatline or Orient Express.  None of the historical inaccuracies bothered me at all, as the monster-of-the-week plots are increasingly employed as a means to advance the character development and the larger arcs.

And oh what a reveal at the end!  The bit where Ashildr stood in the middle as countless ages proceeded behind her was fascinating, especially with the simple and effective transition in her face from joy to rage.  She is clearly not happy with the Doctor’s cavalier decision to grant her quasi-immortality.

And why not?  The references to Jack Harkness have already been mentioned, but my initial thought was of Claudia in Interview with the Vampire (played by the 12-year-old Kirsten Dunst in the movie), and of the horrible implications of being trapped as a child for all eternity.  (Maisie Williams, of course, is 18, but looks much younger.)  And to be left on her own as her civilization collapses, having to make her own way for centuries while looking like a teenaged girl – yikes.  I’ll bet she’s angry.

Shades of “Time Lord Victorious” in this episode, but with a wholly different feel.  While Ten in “The Waters of Mars” was basically completely unhinged by the thought of letting history take its course in that particular instance, Twelve views his predicament as freeing in a way — as an old rebel, he is used to breaking the rules and getting away with it, so why pretend he doesn’t?

Regarding the comments about Twelve’s aging-rock-star look (t-shirt, hoodie, and shades), I’d draw a parallel between Eleven, who appeared outwardly young but dressed old, and Twelve, who appears outwardly older but dresses young.  I think this says something about their particular characters — Eleven felt a weight of responsibility despite his apparent youth, while Twelve conveys a certain air of “not giving any f***s” that can only come with (apparent) age.

That said, Twelve is clearly still troubled by the choices he makes.  The defining moment of the episode for me was the better-left-unsaid fact that he could have given Clara one of those immortality patches and chose not to.  On one hand, this can be interpreted as the Doctor truly believing that immortality is more of a curse than a blessing, and not wishing that on Clara.  On the other hand, I think the Doctor may be a bit of a hypocrite, and ultimately not as sorry to lose people as he says he is.  His outburst about watching other people die was moving, but at the same time, he bristles at the names of former companions, and lives in an eternal now (ironically, for a Time Lord).  An immortal (or even mostly immortal) companion, I think, would represent a narrowing of options that the Doctor simply couldn’t handle.  I think there is a dark part of him that recognizes that, ultimately, he will always get a reset.

Which brings me to Clara.  While I am definitely ready for her exit, I think she has become one of the most interesting and flawed companions of the series (old and new).  Not idealized like Rose or Amy, or basically a good person like Martha or Donna, Clara’s motives are far more unclear.  The Doctor increasingly finds her cavalier attitude towards danger to be disturbing (perhaps because it echoes his own), and her repeated insistence that the Doctor will always have a plan eventually is beginning to grate.  In my opinion, she has reacted to the loss of Danny by shutting down emotionally, becoming more a thrill junkie than ever.  This is dangerous and cannot end well.

[Mirime @mirime]

Shades of “Time Lord Victorious” in this episode, but with a wholly different feel.  While Ten in “The Waters of Mars” was basically completely unhinged by the thought of letting history take its course in that particular instance, Twelve views his predicament as freeing in a way — as an old rebel, he is used to breaking the rules and getting away with it, so why pretend he doesn’t?

@drben another difference is that nobody was asking him to save Ashildr. The people in Waters of Mars asked the Doctor to save them, he insisted he couldn’t, then decided he could do what he wanted and did it anyway. Nobody begged him to bring back Ashildr.

[DrBen @drben]

@mirime – Yes and no.  Adelaide Brooks, after all, felt very strongly that history needed to play out the way it was supposed to.  I think that was more about the Doctor’s God complex – realizing that he was letting bad things happen to good people because of rules that he felt no longer applied to him.

Here, a bigger difference was that he was directly responsible for Ashildr’s death.  I agree with those who said that he knew what he was asking her to do when he put on that helmet – he probably had that healing chip idea in the back of his mind before he put the plan into action, and the rest was convincing himself to use it.

I thought this episode was primarily about the war between the Doctor’s head (“these people having been dead for centuries and there is no point in getting involved”) and his hearts (“I’ve never met a person who wasn’t important”).

[jphamlore @jphamlore]

Given that the Doctor has already voiced a worst-case scenario at the end of this episode, there is no way in my opinion that that his decision to save Ashildr will be shown to ultimately be the wrong one.  He is going to redeem her if she has fallen.  That’s what the Doctor does, he saves people.

It’s great to see Maisie Williams in the series, but the disadvantage is that her future availability is highly in doubt even if Ashildr should prove to be an incredible character creation on the order of Davros or the Master.  That is why I believe her story will be brought to some sort of satisfactory and happy ending by the end of the next episode.

[lisa @lisa]

@drben Although I found this episode in some sense a bit unsatisfying still
I see Mathieson can write good stories that cross over to very different places extremely well.

I also wondered about Ashildr’s youth. She is at least not as young child as in the “Interview”
movie. She seems to me about the age of Clara when she met 11 yet all the same I take your point.

About your youth and age point and how the Doctor is somewhat darker now in terms of not giving
any f*** that seems to come with age, I think that concept about age is rather wrong. Like you though
I also have a hunch that the Doctor is burdened and unsettled and he’s even mentioned the burden of
caring a few times of late. But maybe the difference was that 11 was a bit less reckless than 12.
His face should be reminding him of how he becomes when he acts recklessly or rebelliously. Donna
was trying to remind him he is the Doctor and he should save people. That is part of why he saved
Ashildr but also because I think she touched a nerve in him.

But I’m on the same page as you on all your other points!

[Spider @spider]

Hello all. Not been on for a bit as I’ve been away – on holiday for my brother and friends 40th birthday trip to Italy. Therefore only caught up with this latest episode this afternoon. I’ve not read through any of the comments yet – will do that in another post later, but just needed to share something first. Bear with me, it’s indulgent and a little bonkers.

First things first. For as long as I can remember, I have always had a thing about (well, Doctor Who obviously) but also volcanoes. Vesuvius and Pompeii etc. being a particular fascination. Given all that, the episode Fires of Pompeii is one of my favourite episodes – it’s one of my favourite Doctors and favourite companions in a setting I’d been completely fascinated with for years. At the time the episode was shown I also loved Peter Capaldi’s character and family. So of course, years later when he is cast as the Twelfth Doctor and we have the ‘why this face’ I have been intrigued to know what they were going to do as an explanation.

And this is the episode we get it, ‘I’m the Doctor and I save people’, along with the flashbacks to Fires of Pompeii. That in itself is a yay! moment linking the old episode to the new Doctor. But for me, there was SO much more to it, although mainly just due to the random coincidence of the timing of when it was broadcast.

This last week I have been on holiday to Italy. As part of that I was at Pompeii, Herculaneum and went up to the top of Vesuvius (all of which was stunning, sad, amazing and intriguing all at the same time). So here’s the thing: Last Saturday when The Girl That Died episode was broadcast in the UK, that VERY day I had been standing on the TOP of Vesuvius looking down on Pompeii. Not only that but the day before I had been in Pompeii looking up at Vesuvius, and had (without actually planning on it) walked past the house of Lucius Caecilius (the character Capaldi’s character was named after, although the real profession was changed for the episode).

The way all of that came together timing wise is of course complete coincidence, but it’s really completely bonkers how it did so. It’s kind of daft how I get stupidly excited how a fictional TV series interacts with me being at an actual historical event, but for me it is also why I love Doctor Who.

Right. Going to have to go have another lie down, my head is just all over the place with it all 🙂

(\(\;;/)/)

[lisa @lisa]

@spider That’s a beautiful story! There’s magic in it just like in Doctor Who.
Thanks for sharing! 🙂

[ichabod @ichabod]

@countscarlioni   if he gives her the chip, Clara too has the potential to become another destructive tidal wave. The Doctor, as he shouts at the end of The Girl Who Died, can do anything, but here he grasps, after Ashildr has hugely sharpened his understanding of this, he shouldn’t save Clara. No wonder the Doctor has to go off by himself 

Yes — only how can he know by the end of “Girl” that Ashildr will in fact become a problem because of the chip he’s given her?  He know that he himself has, on occasion, been problematic to the universe (all right, remind me — does he remember now that he’s both destroyed Gallifrey and saved/hidden Gallifrey without destroying it?), but she’s just starting out, and she’s human, not a Time Lord with a TL’s knowledge or expertise, so — I get it that she could become very unhappy to outlive everyone; but how can she be a tidal wave as one young woman?

Does the Doctor tune in telepathically and see evidence that her budding shamanic gifts (of which she’s currently a bit ashamed and untrusting) will make her formidable in future?

@jphamlore  (de Stael) One must choose in life between boredom and suffering.

Well, if one has the option of a choice, which wasn’t all that common for the normal run of women throughout most of history . . . and even today in, say, Afghanistan.  I do like your Formidable Females in history, though!

@whisht  War Minister Hilda Ogden?  Yes, why not?  Well, it’s the 17th c when we see her next, so . . . unlikely . . .

@phaseshift  Let’s be honest, Vikings having horned helmets in the Whoniverse is actual ‘canon’ for those keeping score on these things. (I actually think that’s what the trouser reference was about,

I think fans tend to forget that the Who universe really isn’t the same as ours — for one thing, it’s *much* busier with space travelers than we are; there’s a reason we don’t have UNIT in our reality (unless — !).

@janetteb   @bluesqueakpip and @scaryb who have both been doing sterling work over on the Guardian taking on the ARSE commenters.

Our warriors!  Thank you for your sacrifice!  Really.  It can be such a cess pit of haughty and raging egos over there. You’ll need lots of showers.

@bluesqueakpip  I think the only problem with Jamie Mathieson’s Viking plot was that it came in way too short – 

Hmm.  Then they could have had time for a scene where Ashildr wakes up alive and gives some sign in her speech or behavior that the Doctor recognizes as ominous for her future (and far future) behavior, so that his concern that he’s made a bad mistake is kicked off by something real about *her*, not in the abstract.

@drben  And to be left on her own as her civilization collapses, having to make her own way for centuries while looking like a teenaged girl – yikes. I’ll bet she’s angry.

I keep thinking of the film, “Let the Right One In”, though the match to Ashildr’s situation isn’t solid.  I suppose yes, the chip thing if it repairs as she moves through time, will keep her young; hadn’t really thought about that.  Not just young, but young enough (modern science tells us) to not yet have fully developed her capacities for empathy and for realistic risk assessment . . . oh dear . . .

An immortal (or even mostly immortal) companion, I think, would represent a narrowing of options that the Doctor simply couldn’t handle. I think there is a dark part of him that recognizes that, ultimately, he will always get a reset.

Oh, now you’ve done it; yes.  That’s the other problem: people with great curiosity and energy often are easily bored, especially (over, as it were, time) with other people.  I think the Doctor knows he’s not supposed to travel alone; but he also *likes* to travel alone; and he may even sometimes enjoy being sorry for himself on account of being alone and losing people.  Melancholy can be its own reward . . .  Of course, I’m generalizing from human psychology here, but part of the point of human companions is that the Doctor is humanized by them, so it could apply.  Anybody see Jim Jarmusch’s vampire movie, “Only Lovers Left Alive”?  His vampire couple spend centuries apart deliberately, to overcome the boredom of being with each other, and so they can get together again and make out madly and then go out and suck some people dry.

On the other hand, family viewing — so we won’t go there.  Though Capaldi is super-capable of handling such an emotional reveal brilliantly.  I’d file this sort of thinking under what he means when he says in an interview (question about acting in a show partly aimed at kids and limited by that) something like, “Well, sometimes you miss opportunities to give your more mature acting chops a work-out”.

As for Clara — I’ve come to admire how much they’ve been able to do with this character too.  I wouldn’t say she’s shut down emotionally, though — that phone call between her and the Doctor in Before the Flood was pretty high- key for her — but she’s certainly compartmentalized the whole Danny/regular human life disaster.  That way she can divert energy from a bottomless sinkhole of grief and guilt (she did wait too long to try to tell Danny she’d chosen him, and then rushed the moment by trying to do it by phone instead of face to face) into attacking risks and adventures that at least give a rush of reward and validation that she’s good for *something*.

the war between the Doctor’s head (“these people having been dead for centuries and there is no point in getting involved”) and his hearts (“I’ve never met a person who wasn’t important”).

Nice and clear on that on-going conflict; thank you.

@spider  Your trip sounds great — thanks for the report!  Now go lie down and enjoy your jet-lag while you’ve still got it . . . !

[Rob @rob]

Post #44963 @phaseshift and @purofilion and @arbutus and @bluesqueakpip and @ichabod and @countscarlioni Yup loved the Third Doctor reference to reversing the polarity (plus @ anyone else who squeed at it too 😀 )

Welcome @starla

Not sure what to add (perhaps could point out that the Normans were Norsemen so we are still living with the consequences of a viking well into the 21st century)

Ashildr’s countenance changed as the seasons/years (not totally convinced the sweep around shot showed decades rather than months passing) She started of smiling and grew sadder…. She needs another visit from the Doctor, just imagine how much of a boost the Weeping Angels would get if they zapped her or Captain Jack.

I think the key line is/may/wasn’t (depending upon future/past/current events will be “hybrid”

Jenny, Dr Donna, Human 10, Claricles, Clara(???) River, Dalek Sec and Dalek Caan Master/Missy

Speaking of boot-straps is not 13 exactly this from his appearence in The Day of the Doctor ????

and are not boot straps = laces = tangled string = timewimey anyway

 

ps staying in Wookey Hole but very disappointing, no Wookies or Jedi anywhere!!!!

[ichabod @ichabod]

@rob  Directions to Wooky Hole would be much appreciated . . .

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@spider

Your trip to Pompeii sounds brilliant.

@ichabod

Now go lie down and enjoy your jet-lag while you’ve still got it . . . !

Jet-lag? From Italy to the UK? Back in my working days when the Qantas Club Lounge was a second home (halcyon days…) I used to travel regularly from Australia to the UK and back. Now we are talking real jet-lag!

@rob

staying in Wookey Hole but very disappointing, no Wookies or Jedi anywhere!!!!

Not sure how far down the caves you are, but you might keep a lookout for Silurians.

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@blenkinsopthebrave  I’m *always* on the look out for Silurians . . .

[Rob @rob]

@ichabod

Follow your nose, the more Cheddary you get the closer you are, once you can gorge yourself on Somerset Brie, watch out for the mites going up as your tights come down you’ll be there 😉

@blenkinsopthebrave keeping my eyes peeled!!!!

[ichabod @ichabod]

@rob  Hmm.  Maybe next week.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@rob

I think the Oods hang out in Wookey Hole as well. 🙂

[Rob @rob]

@bluesqueakpip

Now the Ood are very cool unless they have that red eye malarkey going on 😀

I will report back to let you all know which civilisations I meet down my cave tomorrow hehehe

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@janetteb–

I disagree regarding Susan. I would not want her to return as a companion which is something that often seems to be suggested. I would however like to know what became of her, a Gallifreyan presumably with the ability to regenerate left on earth

Actually, that’s probably fair enough. There are ways that a return to Susan might be interesting and I don’t blame people for wanting to see that. She’d possibly be extremely resentful. Her life with David Campbell would take up what 70-odd years and then she’d have been stuck on the ‘slow path’. Could be interesting but personally I’m happy for it stay in the past.

I’d actually really like to see something that we’ve possibly not seen since the mid-1960s — a series that has no returning elements of the series, no old villains, no old characters. Just the core premise of the original show. The Doctor and his current companion(s) visiting strange new worlds, meeting entirely new characters and that sense of limitless wonder of the early show. Would never happen, of course, but I like to dream.

@bluesqueakpip —

I’d say your analysis of the episode’s flawed structure is pretty spot on. I think what I meant when I said when I said Mathieson didn’t have a story he enjoyed was that there’s little indication that he wanted to engage with the idea of the Vikings at all. That was possibly a tonal decision before the story was even written (Moffatt: Give me a romp.) Agree with @phaseshift that it’s deliberately riffing on The Time Meddler, which had a similar rompey vibe. But I kept getting the impression that the treatment of the historical characters became so post-moderney was because it helped to keep Mathieson’s interest. You’re probably right that the training scene was padding but I must admit I quite liked it. It felt like they were giving Capaldi a chance to do a riff on the Tucker-esque side of his Doc’s characterisation.

I also suspect that the horned helmets and the eels were quite deliberate and not bona fide ‘errors’. Someone on the Other Place described it as ‘trolling the fans’ and I suspect this might be the case. I also concur with those above who wrote that we might even be seeing something even more meta going on here and that the whole Viking story is just that — a story (whom it is being told by is a question possibly for another day but that some poetic licence is being used even here). Personally, I don’t care a jot about the eels but suppose can understand why it bugs some people — and have probably been more tetchy than I should have been with some expressing their dissatisfaction with it over on the Graun.

With regards to the teaser not having anything to do with the actual episode, you’re right it might turn out to be relevant in a way that we haven’t seen yet. But sometimes teasers just don’t. I can think of a few instances in Buffy/Angel where the teaser pretty much stands alone (filler again) and I’m sure lurking at the back of my mind there are examples in Nu-Who too. I’m just struggling to dredge them up at the moment.

You’re right though that this episodes has some fundamental structural problems. But now that I look back on it, I still enjoy it more than I did Before The Flood. Possibly because Capaldi’s performance is so strong. As I say, I think Mathieson has just shown himself to be really good at writing this Doctor.

[Anonymous @]

@rob good to see you wookeying about -stay well and dry.

@blenkinsopthebrave @spider @ichabod

yes, i’ll have to take Mr B’s point here -jet lag after (to Prague recently  or the UK ) 30+ hours. Oh. My. God. I’m never leaving Oz again. Not. Ever.

spider – sounds incredible and serendipitous. Indeed: lie down and breathe in the memories.

@janetteb and @ScaryB & others working away at the scabs at the Graun -you deserve a drink. Something fun with umbrellas, fruit, olives and music playing! q d q d 🙂

@drben

great to read such a positive and energetic review of the latest episode: sounds like you picked up quite a bit of optimism about the episode itself and recognised the problematic tenets of the Doctor: does he really hate loss? I think he does. But as ichi says “melancholy is its own reward” and so I’d add that he needs these rough moments; challenges -yes, he saves people but he experiments in his way too. In the advertisement for the series -there’s a section where you see the Doctor (nothing spoilery at all) where he’s in the Tardis and he shrugs, quite blandly, a “take it or leave it” shrug -does he really become muddled and concerned over moral questions? I’d say not too much. Not any more. He’s content to change history a little despite the “there are rules” comment from the previous episode (he wasn’t sticking to them this time was he? 🙂 )

He likes his challenge and victories -like any human does -but I wonder how attached he becomes to people in the end. Surely, with his big-sized, non-pudding brain he’s thought of the adverse consequences of Ashildr’s immortality and possibly shrugged: “what have I done?” -but I’m not sure this Doctor would ask that or with that much conviction. Think of the answer! Better, on second thoughts, not to ask the question.

Kindest, Puro

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@ichabod

Hmm.  Then they could have had time for a scene where Ashildr wakes up alive and gives some sign in her speech or behavior that the Doctor recognizes as ominous for her future (and far future) behavior, so that his concern that he’s made a bad mistake is kicked off by something real about *her*, not in the abstract.

We had that scene, but the Doctor remembered in the wrong way round.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

On the question of the Doctor giving Ashildr a spare chip, I am wondering if that chip actually works. I seem to remember him working on the first chip as Ashildr lays dead then immediately placing it on her. When did he get the opportunity to convert the second chip for humans before he leaves it for her?

But, if so, why would he give her a chip that would not work?

No answers, just musing.

[Missy @missy]

As yet – because I lack a certain imagination – I haven’t come up with any bonkers ideas, so this will be a doozy!
Could it be possible that the Tardis is actually taking a hand in events? After all, in the Doctor’s Wife she took control. she also let it be known how she feels about “her Doctor.”
If the “The “Moment” could transport all three Doctors, surely the Tardis could be behind some of it.
She taught River to fly her and she definitely has some connection to Clara – and I agree, she is becoming a bit of a bore lately, Clara I mean.
Sorry if this is a little jumbled, but it’s the only bonkers idea I’ve had.
If this has been thought of before, ignore me. As @bluesqueakpip mentioned, so much to read, so little time to do it.

Cheers,

Missy

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