The Girl Who Died

[Mersey @mersey]

@bluesqueakpip

My mother died when I was 5. Mother’s death is a wound that never heals. You’re left in a constant fear that something will happen with you second parent and you’ll be left alone. It’s much more harder to leave your parent and live your own life. For me Clara doesn’t look like a person much affected by her mother’s death.

But I must admit, her Christmas looked very convincing. Same for me but instead of Grandmother Grandfather and no dad’s girlfriend. Except for that I don’t buy this story.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@mersey  @bluesqeakpip

S8 and S9 so far have, I think, neglected that early maternal loss, which I’d forgotten by this time to tell the truth.  When you add it back in as pip has done here, Clara’s intensity around the prospects (and facts) of death and loss is  strengthened and connected up with her current story-line much more effectively.  If that’s on the writers’ minds, they certainly missed a chance in The Girl Who Died to hark back to the tragedy of a mother dying, since Ashildr is herself motherless, so Clara might have said something to remind us.

I still don’t get the leaf-thing.  I will probably never get the leaf-thing, but it does give Clara more mystery of her own, which I tend to find frustrating, or delightful, depending on mood . . .

[ichabod @ichabod]

@mersey  Clara certainly doesn’t spend much time (that we see) mourning or even thinking about her mother in S8-S9 so far.  That’s why I forgot . . . and I bet I’m not the only one!  I think the idea that her mother’s early death drives Clara is a good one and could make better sense of some aspects of her character — but that hasn’t been supported, IMO, in these most recent series.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@ichabod

The leaf. I interpreted the leaf as a story she was told by her parents–that her father had been out walking, a leaf fell and distracted him, causing him to almost walk into the traffic, a young girl instinctively grabs him out of harms way, they fall in love, they marry, they have Clara. I have always seen it as simply a sweet tale told to Clara by her parents to capture the serendipity of her existence.

Now, if one wants to go done the road of wondering if the leaf was orchestrated by some force to bring about this chain of events, then that way bonkers theories lie. But I have never seen it that way.

[Mersey @mersey]

@ichabod

I interpret this leaf as something like a weeping angels effect. Her mother’s death ripped from the present and the future not only her life but also all stories and all possibilities of her life. Her every possible choice and things like that. And this leaf is a record of those things.

I think it’s time to leave Clara alone and move on. I fully accept Clara in this season. That’s the end of this conversation for me.

[ichabod @ichabod]

Is a “suicide moon” a whole moon that somebody slings into a planet or space habitat to destroy same?  That wasn’t actually my first thought; my first thought was, oh, like “Gloomy Sunday” . . . ugh!

 

[ichabod @ichabod]

@craig  Thanks for that, you’re very kind; and I appreciate it.  As for your desk, well — alas, you’re on your own!  Though I’d love to visit London again . . . maybe sometime before flying just becomes too much of a hassle.  Next time there’s a big SF con there, I hope to attend; missed the last one, for the obvious reasons.  And I’m sorry you have your own experiences to remember re death and dementia among those close to you.

@nerys  Oh, the clip of Clara’s Leap — glad to see it in a bit of context, too.  That was certainly a courageous moment, and a serious choice seriously chosen, not that larky bit of impulsiveness suggested by the phrase “she jumped into his time stream”

[Anonymous @]

@cathannabel I’m so glad you are retiring and seem happy about it (unless I got the wrong end of the stick there -but yes, more PhDs on this site -sounds gooood to me!)

I agree with the ‘just’ too. Lately, I’ve had discussions with people who say “I just have 2 kids” as if two is not enough, as if it warrants the ‘just’  -what nonsense!

All stories are wonderful, all children’s shows are as nuanced (if written that way) as the children are themselves, complicated and layered and complex

[Anonymous @]

@mersey

as someone who lost her mum at age 7, I’d agree with @bluesqueakpip . I spent months hiding under teacher’s desks, arriving at school with my clothes on back-to-front and my hair falling out of its braid because Father was pretty useless. So, no, not perfection for Clara and not near idyllic either.

Her almost- ‘step mum’ isn’t particularly nice and her father seems distinctly distracted these days. And her friends, where are they? She never chats on phone to friends -as Donna or Martha did. It’s interesting. <<*\*>>

I should add that the companions haven’t had tragic endings -barring Donna. Rory and Amy were together, Martha went on to work with Torchwood, amongst other things, Rose got her ‘doctor’…so, I’m hanging out for a real sad ending myself -an emotional pay off that I think we really need at this point.

The episodes are pointing to that, at least.

[Anonymous @]

@mersey

I’m having little luck replying today! I have posted this about 6 times and the internet is eating it!

I should add that I’m sorry you also lost Mum at a young age -me too. It certainly had quite some residual effects which I see in Clara who I think is affected more than we know. I’d add that she has few friends and that her obligation to the children outweighed any to herself -to travel or study or be a young twenty-something ? I think with a distracted father and an almost-step mum who seems bitter, small and cynical that she is very lost indeed and not idyllic in her life -perhaps her dreams, yes.

Rose got her ‘doctor’ in the end, Rory and Amy were together, Martha worked for Torchwood at the very least and even Donna received some good ‘fortune’ at the hands of the Doctor ‘she never knew’ therefore we’re due for a real spanking emotional pay off which I think is being pointed out all over the place with Clara’s writing: I think we actually need that? It’s been suggested and implied that her life will be cut short in some dramatic way (of course that could be a herring, I suppose?)  so I expect some tragedy -but no, you’re not naive in wanting a good, happy ending. We all want those. People like you, me and Clara -and many others, for they all have had tragedy in their life-we all do and yet many keep quiet about the rage and pain that ‘dignifies’ their life and some point. Yes, we grow from it, but it’s not naïve to want something different, something peaceful and content as an ending.

[Anonymous @]

@mersey I agree with @bluesqueakpip. I lost mum at age 7 and spent most of the time hiding under desks, with clothes on back to front. I was a lost cause for several years. Young Clara has a distracted dad and her almost-step-mum isn’t particularly nice. She seems to have few friends.

I’d add that the other companions didn’t have miserable endings (bar Donna): Rory and Amy were happy, young Martha went to work for Torchwood amongst other things and even Rose got her Doctor -I had more to say but my computer lost it!

I think you said yourself you lost you own Mum -I’m sorry to hear it. We all take these losses in different ways.

[Anonymous @]

@mersey , goodness, my post was a bit of a mash up – bad writing in every way, but I hope you see what I mean, in the end, I decided to press ‘submit’ in case it got washed away again  🙂

But @craig   —all is going OK, now -“she crosses her fingers and toes”

[Anonymous @]

right mods @craig @fatmaninabox

and everyone else who’s reading my pathetic attempts to rid myself – of myself – by editing of repeated posts which didn’t actually post and then all of a sudden appeared!

@mersey it appears I’ve tried to somehow tell you the same thing 5 times! and then ‘test it’ which didn’t work at the time either. Good thing I didn’t try swearing and carrying on -as I do at the innernet, as I can’t ‘edit’ anything either.

I broke the internet again.

This is embarrassing.

Anyway, moving on. the UK contingent is hopefully asleep and will wake up when I’m asleep. This is a good thing!

[winston @winston]

@purofilion

Never mind my internet is still working. So you didn’t break it all, maybe just Australia.

By the way Martha and Mickey the idiot also got married so they seemed pretty happy.

[Anonymous @]

@winston

Martha and Mickey the idiot also got married

I’m pretty sure in one of my many re-posts I mentioned this too. 🙂

 

[winston @winston]

@purofilion

OOOPS!   Darn I thought I put in a new fact but that is hard on this forum. I have to pay more attention to the posts.

I am beginning to think that Clara’s end is going to be spectacular and timey-wimey but aren’t they all. But I have no bonkers theories just vague feelings like I should know but just can’t grasp it. I love that feeling.

[Kharis @kharis]

Just got to reading all of this.  Crazy week, and that is putting it lightly.

Too much, so I will sum up:

@purofilion and @ichabod What you two said.  (:   Loved reading your posts about the episode and Doctor Who and about life in general .

Clara – I think her character is extremely complex; she is very flawed and original, and unpredictable.  One of the best.                                Tarot: Hanged Man & The World

Doctor – Yes, questioning himself, making poor choices, toying with darkness.  This is often the case with someone who has had a complex background of extreme highs and lows.  Some people never get to that step.  It’s like the mirror scene in the Neverending Story (another “children’s story” and it’s funny how children’s stories go deeper than the majority of “adult” literature and movies) it is one of the final steps towards becoming enlightened and ready to be a tool for the universe’s progress.  The consequences of his actions may very well be leading him towards the Valeyard, which will be an important step in his growth.          Tarot: The Fool

Ashildr – She is set to be a very important character somehow tied to Clara, there is little doubt.  Minister of War, is a brilliant connection, nice job.  The fact that she is “battle god” and Clara is “friend of God” (only when she was Oswin) but most of the time “ruler of gods” as Oswald.   They will be tied in, and would not be surprised by a family like relation.       Tarot: Strength

Too many thoughts, too many theories, some about River, CAL, and Missy, and some about the Valeyard.  I truly enjoyed everyone’s posts and I actually read them all.  My head is swimming and my nine year old is waiting for to stop writing so we can watch tonight’s new episode.  He finished his math, so now it’s time for me to hold up my end and get off the computer.  Doctor Who is a highly anticipated family event.   Sorry for the losses and illness in our great community.  Love to all.  Sorry for the brevity.  Enjoy tonight!   Can’t wait to see what they throw at us next.  What an all-around awesome season and fun ride.  (:

 

[Missy @missy]

Have un ticked this to avoid notifications coming to me via emial. See if it works this time.

Missy

[Mersey @mersey]

@purofilion

I received all your replies in the middle of the night, I read them and started to think about Doctor Who so madly that I couldn’t fall asleep again. I wanted to finish this conversation about Clara because I felt it got out of control (literally!:-) but I just can’t ignore 5 replies!

My opinion about Clara in season 7 and partly in season 8 was something I covered up for two seasons. I spend hours and days watching and rewatching the best show in the world and there was Clara who I couldn’t accept and even considered abandoning the show! But I joined this forum and finally got an opportunity to tell people what I was thinking about her. I don’t have a time vortex manipulator so I can’t go back in time and change my feelings towards Clara and I don’t want to do that. But after I had expressed my feeling I felt better and I think I’m starting to like Clara!

As for this tragic endings, Rose eventually got her Doctor but the first ending was really sad. One can argue that Martha was happy, but she supposed to be a doctor, a person who saves people’s’lives and she ended up as some kind of assassin. Donna ended up married and she got a lotery coupon from her father but still all her memories were wiped out with the possibility that her mind will be blown up. And she returned to the place where she had started. And that was so unfair. She was a fine woman and she achieved so much! And even now she has an influence on Doctor. Amy lived and died happily with Rory but she was deprived of being pregnant (and being concious about it) and having her own baby. And there was the WWII before them and of course they were separated from their families. And these events were really traumatic for Doctor. Do you remember the scene from Let’s kill Hitler in which he asks Tardis to show him someone about who he doesn’t feel guilty?

Thanks for your attention. You don’t give up!

 

[KBranagh @kbranagh]

I just watched the episode.
Again, another superb 44 minutes! The season 8 is my favourite year of Doctor Who but i think i might change my mind if this is the level for the rest of the season.
Maisie Williams, what a surprise and great add! Ashildr have a great potential for a strong character at long term…i hope the writers do not forget about her, like the Doctor’s daughter that, we don’t see from years xD
I’m impresse about the explanation of Capaldi recast, in Doctor Who nothing if left to chance…now Moffat have to think something else for Capaldi-Torchwood aswell..maybe is a descendant of the Pompei character.

Murray Gold best score of the season, god i love this man, is a maestro.

[KBranagh @kbranagh]

I forgot…i wonder two thing about the episode…
1)if the doctor have consider to take other chips from the other four,five aliens elmet in the barn for future need.
2)It’s more difficult every week knows when the doctor change the time and when it’s become part of the event like in “before the flood” so..the Ashildr story has always happen?

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod. The Gril who Died.

I began wondering, as I haven’t seen this for a while and then not much. It turns out both of us are right.

DW says he’s sick of losing twice, and it’s the second time he says ‘sick of losing people.’

Thumbs up.

Missy

[ichabod @ichabod]

@missy  Great; thanks for checking!  So different for most of us, with our various notions of  “the afterlife” where we’ll supposedly meet our lost relatives and friends and lovers again in some sort of — happy, timeless stasis? For a space wanderer who has never met a real “God” or glimpsed the paranormal — an existential space wanderer still wondering what it’s all about — dead is (mostly) dead, and gone is (mostly) gone.  And it goes on as good as forever, in terms of human life spans anyway.  He says he remembers everyone, which might help explain his restlessness and adventure-seeking: sitting quietly and actually *remembering* your lost ones is one thing.  Storing them away in your mind in (more or less) perpetuity while you dash from peril to peril — so that you rarely have time or occasion to look back — that would be something else again.

Well, that’s the Doctor, with too much memory stored up to ever begin to face, maybe.  So much (add in all the stories we don’t see, the adventures in between and their people), the sheer weight of accumulated incident — whew!  If you really want to crack the Doctor, you’d catch him in a trap like the Confession Dial, but *with no puzzles to solve* so that he’d have nothing to do but remember his long, long train of memories and losses.

 

 

[Missy @missy]

@ichabod: I can’t imagine all that loss at the back of my mind, waiting to punce.

As you say, the perfect place to put the Doctor, if you wanted to torture him, was his Confession Dial. Not very nice these Time Lords – well the President wasn’t.

Reminds me (thread nap) of Mycroft’s words, in the “Bride.” The worst place you could put Sherlock, was in a cell.

Missy

 

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Well, here’s some random thoughts on The Girl Who Died.

It actually turned out to be a much better episode than I expected at the start.

Minor nitpick – electric eels don’t flash like that. And I’m certain they don’t produce enough current to power electromagnets to yank the Mire’s weapons out of their hands. But never mind.

I like Clara in this episode. She looks very fetching in that Viking get-up. The Vikings turned out to be not as savage and hostile as they first appeared.

Ashildr – I sympathise with, but sometimes I want to slap her. As when Clara had persuaded Mire chief that his best option was to avoid taking on the Doctor’s superior technology (nice work Clara) and Ashildr promptly scuppers it.

I felt a bit sorry for Ashildr having to put on the Mire helmet. But defeating the Mire was, as the Doc said, a happy ending. Which turned to tragedy when Ashildr is found dead. And back to triumph when the Doctor revives her. And then the revelation that she may be immortal. Episode closes on a happy Ashildr watching the seasons go past, which turns to sadness as the aeons flash past. This is a real roller-coaster of emotions. Interesting that it says ‘To Be Continued’ but there are no previews of ‘next week’ during the credits.

I like this episode much better on re-watching. First time, I was still waiting for an episode as dazzling as the season opener. But in this ep, we got some lovely moments between Clara and the Doctor. And the Doctor feels responsible for Clara. even though she didn’t ask him to be (but that’s not how it works). But then Clara feels responsible for the Doctor, too.

And it highlights the heavy burden of having power – the Doctor can revive Ashildr, but at the possible cost of making her immortal – should he? Clara said “Whatever you did for Ashildr, I think she deserved it.” That could be taken two ways, of course, though Clara meant it kindly. But in a sense Ashildr did ‘deserve it’ – if she hadn’t declared war on the Mire, none of it would have happened.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Correction – I said there was no ‘Next time’ preview – there was.   At the end of the credits.   Rarely have I proved myself wrong so promptly.   I hate it when that happens.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. Another well thought through review. I have not re watched this for a very long time but as I recall there were aspects of the historical depiction of Vikings that annoyed me. I don’t recall just what they were however. I also found Ashildr a bit irritating at times and though  I really don’t know anything about electric eels that bit rather stretched credulity. So overall  I would give this a 6/10, just a pass.  Having read your review however I now do want to watch it again and see if it holds up better than remembered.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Not sure if this the right place for this but…

…up until The Timeless Child I was kind of holding on by my fingertips. But that episode really did make me want to wipe my hands. So I fell off that particular cliff.

But hey Rusty’s back! Is it safe to come out now?
More importantly can we now talk about what really happened in the Chibnall era? And just as relevantly, what might have happened at the end of the Moffat era.
I’m thinking the reaction to Season Eight, the WW1 centenary narrative, the Soldier and the Officer, and most significantly all the cyber soldiers blasting off and exploding. Never mind ‘heaven’ turning out to be a nifty piece of Gallifreyan tech, you’re clearly a very naughty aetheist, Steven.

At that point did the authorities get interested (as in the 70s and 80s)? Did they take a look at and then balk at what Steven had planned for 2015? Too much older man/younger woman, too much funny godless stuff, too much continuity worship, too much meta writing. Enough! they said. Write it again!
But meta ran through Steven like a stick of rock. And he rather liked elements of his original story arc.

That was why The Girl who Died/Woman who Lived was so very odd; Ashildr was supposed to be the Doctor’s mother.
Discuss…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1lov3y0u (not sure if I got that right)

Interesting idea that Me is the Doctor’s mother. Don’t think I have heard that suggested before. IT would play to the claim from the movie that he is part human. I am not really a fan of that though. I prefer the Doctor to be completely alien with an unaccountable liking for humans. (all I can say is that Gallifreyans must be really rotten if humanity compares favourably to them.)

cheers

Janette

[Oochillyo @oochillyo]

hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

It could be 2 years or so since I saw that episode and literally feel like I only remember the big pictures of many episodes now so I don’t have much to say as my normal reviews or responses but I really enjoyed this one it was funny and relaxing I think, watched a documentary about Viking Ships last week or so and they are awesome 🙂 the ships super high quality more respect for Vikings and what they went through 🙂

I have seen about 3 out of 5 films I think recently to do with Romans and now I feel soo sorry for the Romans and talk to my friend about it sometimes 🙂

Really enjoyed this ep (maybe 8/10 need a refresh, I believe I wrote a I review before) much more so than its follow up with Me , Me did not like Me hahaha sorry its nice to be back 🙂

Take care everyone stay positive hugs 🙂

Regards – Declan Sargent

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Hi! The theory got a brief outing in 2015. I mention it again:

1. Because I could never really let it go.
2. To see if anyone else found the development of Who from Series 9 onward not just profoundly disappointing but rather weird…

At the time I expected the clues to develop like the River/Amy story arcs, but… nothing…

So was there nothing there? Or was Moffat doing his meta thing; using what was happening to the show in the show? Jonathan Nathan Turner did this in Trial of a Time Lord and the Time War was apparently RTD’s comment on the cancelling of the show. Moffat addressed the centenary of WW1 in series 8 and annoyed very many people.

Series 9 started with talk of the hybrid (was it not his show anymore) and ended with Twelve having his mind wiped.

Goddamn it Moffat. What the dickens were you trying to say?

“The hybrid is Me!”

And, never mind the DNA, I would say to be human is NOT to be immortal.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Hi @oochillyo!

the Girl Who Died as an episode was problematic though the story was fascinating. Same with Woman Who Lived but even more problematic; I really didn’t like Parsley the Lion and pals. The main attraction was the content of Me’s journals – see the post on sofa 11.

Vikings! I met an American ‘Viking’ actor at the Jorvik centre in York… and missed the opportunity to call him a Vinland viking. All the way across the North Atlantic in an open boat with no gps! Also the depopulation of the Greenland colonies is a pretty wild bit of history.

Romans in Dr Who… not many to choose from: The Eaters of Light, The Romans in Pandorica Opens were Autons of course,  Fires of Pompei (where Twelve got his mug) and a brief look at the Roman Army in The War Games… that’s it! Are these the Romans you’re sorry for? Or were you taking of something else? What is worse: no plumbing, or plumbing that gives you brain damage?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Not forgetting The Romans from season 2. Duh!

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