The Snowmen – Christmas Special 2012
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4 January 2013 at 20:12 #353
This is just a test, and maybe something more to discuss, even though we’ve all seen it already. Just thought it would be nice to have it here.
4 January 2013 at 22:16 #369Hi all,
not sure how representative I am, so just letting you know what kind of people are here!Me, I like Dr Who, I’m Tom Baker era, watch it when its on but would never consider myself a Whovian (I don’t know enough about the shows).
However, weirdly(?) the 50th anniversary, the xmas special, JLC, the xmas-holidays-landing-on-a-Tuesday-and-having-time-on-my-hands-needing-something-to-think-about, all mean that I’ve wondered far more than usual as to what’s happening and crossed the lurker to commenter Rubicon!Given that, the Bookclub idea is quite interesting. It might push me to try and watch to take part in the problem-solving aspect as much as anything. But even if the real Whovians jump in and give actually credible ideas info etc, I’ll probably lurk and read.
Not sure if that helps anyone, but maybe just a wave to lurkers out there who also think of themselves on the periphery!
4 January 2013 at 22:25 #371@phaseshift– re: eleventh hour- i do like that, though i can see that line coming simply through Moffit having the doctor do the thing with the pages, and then the analogy was too much fun to resist.
There are other repetitions, which might or might not be deliberate. For example, (for a really bonkers one) Clara says ‘eyes front soldier’ as a reason why the Doctor should climb the ladder first- though given the length of her skirts, not really an issue. The other person in Who to say ‘eyes front soldier’ is Amy… Older Amy to be specific. The other Who character to be really good at hacking into networks. Oswin’s abilities honestly did remind me of Older Amy in AOTD, which is probably why the repeated phrase here struck me so.
(Though I know older Amy dies, and I don’t think she’ll come back. I think phrases like this are like echoes, reminders of past episodes, maybe just a little fun for the fans…)
4 January 2013 at 23:02 #373Before I embark on answering posts does anyone else laugh when the click box “remember me” appears below their login details?
It just seems so massively appropriate.
4 January 2013 at 23:21 #381There are other repetitions, which might or might not be deliberate. For example, (for a really bonkers one) Clara says ‘eyes front soldier’ as a reason why the Doctor should climb the ladder first- though given the length of her skirts, not really an issue. The other person in Who to say ‘eyes front soldier’ is Amy… Older Amy to be specific. The other Who character to be really good at hacking into networks. Oswin’s abilities honestly did remind me of Older Amy in AOTD, which is probably why the repeated phrase here struck me so.
Hmmm *puffs on pipe*
@miapatrick‘s posting puts me in mind of the ice governess mimicking what she sees. Could Clara’s mirroring of Amy and River be the same? ie does this indicate that Clara is a similar type of being? This time absorbing more sophisticated information such as how to hack into Dalek technology, etc.
4 January 2013 at 23:52 #385After making a spectacular error when my page failed to reload I have actually made a new post on the repeat of Cold Blood! It’s here, with dates, stats, links and everything!
If anyone wants to comment if they watch, or want to re-watch the episode on DVD, please feel free. I have some thoughts on my mixed feelings on the episode to share after I re-watch it (a critical point, my point of view varies on my immediate mood).
Can I just say I was shocked when I re-read the thread by some of the names missing in later blogs, and the inactivity of others. I love the people who replaced and made those blogs what they were, but it’s a shame so many dropped of the radar.
5 January 2013 at 00:08 #387The Moderator
I would like all my fellow posters to know this is a purely administrative function.
Now kneel. No! Just watch Cold Blood, post on the thread, and let me know when you plan to watch Asylum. Cold Turkey from Who is a terrible thing, and I’m sure we’ve all had our fill of Cold Turkey!Will we be tissue-compressed-eliminated if we don’t do our homework, though?
Haha, of course not! Just
microwaved, er…we’ll just realise you’ve got better things to do!Phew!
5 January 2013 at 00:23 #389It’s a good idea, on the bookclub, and you’ve mentioned the series I most remember (and especially Talons), so if you want to pick a week, I’d volunteer to set of a blog about some of its history at least.
Thanks for that. Most of what the Guardian is doing at the moment (with threading, etc) is to try to tempt the lurkers to actually comment and get engaged, but I can’t see that it will work. I lurked for years on internet forums before I lept in, so I can understand some reluctance. Can I ask – you say you don’t know enough about the shows. Since when did that stop anyone else on the “G” commentating? You’ve made some good points. I’m a T. Baker boy myself. I think this could acually be a lot of fun.
5 January 2013 at 00:36 #391Thanks for the link back to the Guardian blog. I must own up to say that the two parter is one of my favourites. i know that does not accord with most people’s opinion, but I thought the themes ( best of humanity) were classic Who, and as a middle-aged romantic, I could not help but like the two middle-aged scientists who stay behind. (I would love to see them again in a future story.)
5 January 2013 at 00:43 #393I think the mirroring and themes of intelligence may possibly be critical as time goes on. If you consider there are at least 3 versions of Clara/Oswin (Oswin “I Snow”) from the last two episodes, one more in present day, another in a manuscript (?) from the past in the trailer, what if every time she meets him she mirrors him, and takes on more of his attributes? I’m not sure why I’m thinking this, but it could be that fairly old idea that a mirror steals part of your soul (Remember “Kinda”). Hmmm. I will report back tomorrow. With more alcohol.
5 January 2013 at 00:55 #395I’m aware you won’t be watching the repeat on the BBC tomorrow, but if you’d like to share your thoughts. I thought it a worthy effort at the time, but came to see the flaws, and then later on absolutely loved it.
It has to be a year since I saw it last, so I’m interested in how I’ll see it tomorrow.
Hope to see you there!
5 January 2013 at 12:47 #409Hi @phaseshift – thanks for that.
As you say, its normal to lurk (I was thinking of the 90:9:1 ratio). And thanks for the invitation to provide some massively ill-informed theorising – I agree it should be fun!!However I will admit – I’ve practically given up on the anagrams (boo!). Although its been frustratingly fun, so many false leads (Aria, tardis coral, snow, latin numbers, CIA etc) its all too forced.
For instance, as I was trying anagrams and wiki-ing words, I found that that Rory’s name could have come from ‘roric’ meaning “like dew”.
And it was at that point, that I thought I might drop the anagrams!5 January 2013 at 14:36 #423Hi all, as you can see I’ve finally had some time to do some work on the site. I’ve added a header image, got rid of all the rounded corners (they’re like, so 2010!), darkened the text a bit, tightened it up as well, and changed the link colour to a more “Tardis” blue. I’ve removed Groups and Blog too as I didn’t see much point in them for now. If the site starts to really grow it might be worth putting them back.
I’ve also added a couple more widgets in the sidebar. The “Recent posts” one is especially useful because, if you click on the topic name it will take you straight to the last post in that topic with a single click.
I also found a hack that sorted out the avatar problem so they are not blurry anymore – check me out in all my glory :-D. Some avatars got automatically upgraded, but most of you will have to re-upload your avatar if you want to look sharp. Best to load an image that is at least 150px by 150px if possible, but a minimum 80px by 80px is okay.
I think it’s looking okay now and will probably leave it for a while and see how things develop. Now I just have to create an attractive Home page!
5 January 2013 at 15:37 #439Just to let you know, in response to a request by @scaryb I’ve set up a topic where we can discuss the upcoming 50th Anniversary Special. It’s a place to discuss theories, rumours, latest news etc.
5 January 2013 at 16:11 #445Well done @craig – this looks very homely!
And it was at that point, that I thought I might drop the anagrams!
It’s funny you should mention that. When I was going over the old “Cold Blood” blog I came upon an entry where I tried to unlock the anagram key of Amy/Amelia Pond. I’d completely forgotten that I’d written it. I was someone else at the time, but this comment permalink may take you to it or at least highlight it in blue if you scroll down.
I really ought to take my past incarnations advice and give it up myself!
5 January 2013 at 16:38 #451Hurrah! No clingfilm on my weetabix!
Thanks @craig and @phaseshift for your dedication. Very nice header may I say. How about a topic of the Legacy Box set which comes out on Monday?
As for ‘Talons’, it can be watched (naughtily) on youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjACAGjMw0
Can’t create the spare 2hrs 16min required to watch it though…
5 January 2013 at 17:44 #463@phaseshift – the best Amelia Pond anagrams are Opal Maiden and (cough) Oedipal Man.
Something *nobody* has mentioned about the episode under discussion is that when the intelligent globe snow took itself up a notch to inhabit Dr. Simeon, not only was the Doctor there providing an opportunity for mirroring, it started cycloning a la the Vortex once the TARDIS was parked in the same room.
5 January 2013 at 18:09 #467Welcome @pufferfish
You do realise that I now need to rewatch that episode again 🙂
I’m beginning to think I should have selected the username “PhaseFish” to fit in.
5 January 2013 at 18:22 #469@phaseshift – ha ha!
there was me trying waayyyy too hard for anagrams like:
now DW is also Clara;
DW now L; CALs OS Aria;
but I hadn’t thought of comedy anagrams…. might have to look again…DW saw CIA so ran, lol
?
:¬)6 January 2013 at 01:06 #491As a lurker and highly infrequent contributer, after going through the 644 entries on the Guardian blog and the 119 here – a massive thank you to everyone for constantly adding so much to the whole experience and to @craig for setting this up! 😀
About the episode itself –
– I’m glad that @chickenelly also mentioned the way Clara fell on The Doctor – a striking reminder of River.
–@blenkinsopthebrave regarding Forest of the Dead, (the name knowing maybe for identity rather than child reasons? )…ach the dialogue is very open ended-
“Time can be rewritten!”
“Not those times. Not one line! Don’t you dare! You watch us run.”
“River, you know my name. There’s only one reason I would ever tell anyone my name. There’s only one time I could…”
10th Doctor and River Song [4×09 – Forest of the Dead]
It seems that themes of Memory, Identity, Family (and 4th wallness? ) may be key and I for one can’t wait to see (and speculate) how it’ll all come together 🙂
6 January 2013 at 09:00 #497Hello all,
So good to see this site taking off. I don’t have anynew theories no matter how hard I try. I don’t think Clara is a/the Tardis or anything to do with Amy or River. I think Moffatt is creating a whole new arc. I did have a daft idea that Clara is a personification of the Papal mainframe, but as I said, that is daft – Moffatt would piss off a whole church and it’s followers that way.
@chickenelly (us birds are heavily outnumbered by fish, dammit) asked upstream if there were any flickering lights in the Snowmen. I did notice that when Clara kissed the Doctor, there seemed to be a lot of static electricity about. At first I thought it was the Icewoman trying to get through the force field, but the other times they showed her, there wasn’t any static.It only seemed to happen during the snog. Probably nothing more than symbolic of the effect she was having on the Dr, but it did seem odd.
Can’t believe we have to wait for bleeding Easter.
6 January 2013 at 09:19 #501Hi @bobbingbird. Come on over to the new page @craig has created on the 50th anniversary. More potential for bonkers theorising and responses.
Hi @craig. Any chance of putting a link to that on the main page? It is sort of hidden at present.
6 January 2013 at 09:33 #503Just noticed it, @blenkinsopthebrave, and will join in. But for now I have to do my ironing in preparation for my first day back at work. Bah!
6 January 2013 at 10:56 #539@blenkinsopthebrave, quick home page done, with links to all currently active topics. It’s beginning to look like a real website! 😀
7 January 2013 at 18:39 #629You-Reek-Ahh
My wife having told me to have a bath, I contemplated not just my naval but also Madam Vastra’s one word quizzing of Clara and the answer “Pond”
I think it has been theorised as telepathy but it occurred to me that Clara who had perused, used and wiped the Dalek database would know about the Ponds just as she showed with Run you clever boy a link from Clara to Clara to Clara (continues till impossible woman/astronaut?????) riddle is solved. At which point we will all have been proved wrong once again 🙂
On the plus side I am now clean
7 January 2013 at 21:36 #647Some great mind-bending speculation on here.
It would be just like the Moff to institute a time-loop whereby Clara was somehow Susan, the Doctor’s grand-daughter. He does love a time-paradox!
I know @miapatrick over on the Graun was convinced that River was showing the name of a child born to her and the Doctor written in Old High Gallifreyan on his ancient cot at Demon’s Run.
By the way – here is a link to some lovely fan-art inspired by the episode.
http://sararichard.deviantart.com/art/The-Doctor-s-Cloud-345118790
7 January 2013 at 22:55 #683A couple of curiosities relating to The Snowmen – not sure what these indicate, but they might shed light on other theories:
The business cards for the Great Intelligence Institute (image here) show the address as being 2 Bloomsbury Lane, London N31. Setting aside the basic matter of the address itself being fictional, there is the more interesting point that ‘N31’ looks like a numbered district within the ‘N’ postcode area, but in the timeline we’re familiar with, numbering wasn’t introduced until 1917.
Similarly, the newspaper cutting in Simeon’s file, detailing the story of the previous governess frozen in the pond, includes a story immediately above the ‘Governess’ headline, referring to Fumimaro Konoe as the prime minister of Japan – an office he held, in our timeline, from 1937-1939 and from 1940-1941.Do these oddities, both relating to paperwork associated with the GI, reflect interference in time-streams, such that the postal system and the government of Japan in the 1890s were different from what might be expected – we already know that the GI (or another related Great Intelligence?) was active in other places and times than Simeon’s 50 years, given its use of Padmasambhava in The Abominable Snowmen?
Alternatively, were the postal system and the government of Japan exactly as we expect them to be, and do these documents reflect the more localised activities of the GI in moulding Simeon to its purposes, filtering his perceptions so that he was more useful to it, and if these mind-games were being played, does this explain the Doctor’s apparent forgetfulness of what the GI might have to do with the Underground?
7 January 2013 at 23:24 #687@edmund. Wow, they are great finds! And rather than an explanation that they were just mistakes (which would be boring!), could they hint at something about alternate time-streams?
More thinking required.
7 January 2013 at 23:47 #689It reminds me of The Wedding of River Song; you know, when all the times have collapsed together because breaking the fixed point broke time?
So the Japanese PM of 1941 is co-existing with 1892. Hmmm… those dates are 49 years apart.
The Bloomsbury Lane is a bit of a joke – Bloomsbury’s chokka with universities, the British Museum, SOAS etc. In the late Victorian/Edwardian era all self-respecting intelligences hung out in Bloomsbury (especially Great ones).
Sadly, the N31 bus doesn’t go through there, though. It stops at Camden Town.
8 January 2013 at 00:56 #691also mentioned the way Clara fell on The Doctor – a striking reminder of River.
I think that was to emphasise the difference – the reaction was the key, not the event.
8 January 2013 at 01:02 #693Nice observations @edmund and @bluesqueakpip and I wonder if we are going to revisit the moment when the TARDIS exploded in the Pandorica Opens/ Big Bang, which may have had effects such as the jumbling of time periods as yet unknown. Or, perhaps that explosion of the TARDIS destabilised the Time Lock on Gallifrey and the possible time disruptions @edmund points out are evidence that the Time Lords are slowly returning.
That “exploding TARDIS” moment ties in with the strange hissing voice(“Silence will fall”) which ties in with the fields of Trenzalor when, presumably, silence will fall because no-one (including the Doctor himself) remembers Who he is or is able to answer “the question”, Dr Who? (as reiterated from previous speculations by many) – except possibly Clara?
All the Doctor’s attempted solutions to arc problems this series seem to have led inexorably back to the problem – the Doctor became “too big”, which led to the creation of the Alliance, of Kovarian and conspirators unknown and of River as a weapon, but now he is attempting to become “too small”in reaction and when no-one in the universe remembers him you can bet that won’t be a “good thing” either.
Huh – first the Doctor expanded too much (became “too big” in terms of fearsome reputation) and then he contracted too much (is becoming “too small” in terms of total erasure from memory). Is this rather like the contraction of the universe at the end of its life and then its expansion as a new one at the Big Bang?
Of course, the Doctor literally is the creator of this “rebooted” universe…
8 January 2013 at 01:11 #697@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan What do you mean you’re not a fish?
You will be assimilated….
8 January 2013 at 01:48 #699@juniperfish and @edmund
I am going to cross-post this reply to your points about crossed time streams, the exploding Tardis and the fields of Tranzilor, it seems as relevant to this thread as to the 50th anniversary thread (I suspect the overlap between threads holds the potential for getting out of hand. But no matter, as we seem to be all reading all the thread simultaneously!)
Anyway, could it be that the re-booted universe is corrupted (in the computer sense) and that it will lead to a jumbling of time streams that only the other Doctors can unscramble? (I am trying to think of a scenario where the whole history of Who is integral to the story the 50th anniversary show). This is something that Moffat has said he wants to do–ie, do justice to the whole history of Who. And although Moffat lies, I do not think he would lie about that.
And yes, I know, this has not necessarily got anything to do with Kennedy, although it may have 4th wall possibilities.
Finally, should I be cross-posting? If it is too chaotic, I will abide by the vox populi.
8 January 2013 at 02:31 #703@blenkinsopthebrave Hello night-shift 🙂
I’m not sure about cross-posting – could get messy!
But nice idea about the rebooted universe being corrupted in some way. This would tie in with @phaseshift‘s theory that Oswin/ Clara is a “little bit alive” virus created by the Doctor – because in that case she could maybe be a patch fix (if that’s the right tekkie term) for the corrupted “universe programme”.
8 January 2013 at 03:17 #705@juniperfish. But I am the day-shift, you are the night-shift! (You see, time travel is complicated even on this board!)
Agree about cross-posting. Will avoid from now on.
Part of the appeal of the idea of the rebooted, but corrupted, universe is that it allows Moffat to deal with the fact that over the 50 year span of the show, there have been countless times when characters should have known events but didn’t, or when different Doctors were in the same time frame (eg, the 10th and Martha went to the moon lift-off (Blink) while the 11th was in rocket at Cape Canaveral before the lift-off. (Have I remembered that correctly?).
And it allows him to address the fact that the history of Earth constantly changes from Doctor to Doctor (eg, Susan is left on Earth after the Dalek Invasion, but other stories take place as if that never happened). The ideea that versions of the other Doctors have to help the 11th unscramble it all sounds sort of cool to me (and sufficiently audacious to have a Moffat-like feel to it)
8 January 2013 at 06:25 #713Wow. Nice one, @edmund
I have an overwhelming desire to seek out other historical inaccuracies. Trouble is my history is a bit shaky.
I just hope Moff’s isn’t, and these are deliberate clues.
8 January 2013 at 07:30 #715Hi all, regarding cross-posting, I’m loathe to shut down comments on a topic a la The Guardian and face your wrath :-). I was thinking that maybe this topic should be restricted to the events of The Snowmen and speculation about Clara, and theories about what’s going to happen next go elsewhere (although I realise it’s a fine line between those things).
What do people think of another thread about Series 7 part 2? There we can discuss the future of The Doctor in this series, the return of the Cybermen in Gaiman’s episode etc. Or is it starting to get messy and slightly complicated already? I’m happy to go with the flow for now. This is, after all, an evolving thing.
8 January 2013 at 09:01 #717Hi @craig, et al,
I fear I caused this question, so I feel it incumbent upon me to make a responsible suggestion.
For the moment, I would leave it as it is. The thread on the 50th anniversary will capture thoughts on the forthcoming episodes, along with the 23 Nov special (assuming there is such a thing, which is still speculation.)
8 January 2013 at 09:27 #719Ooo – lots of exciting posts!
@edmund – just wow! impressive observation – I noticed the card was being given a prominent position (which is why I suspect GI might be back), but didn’t notice the newspaper. Now the address on the card I could easily be convinced was a simple error, but you can’t explain the newspaper that way. The prop-maker isn’t going to go to all the bother of mocking up a newspaper page from 1890s and then reference a completely different period for the other story. Unless it’s a prop-maker’s joke of course!)
I like the theory about the fractured universe, tho my brain is tying itself in knots trying to work out all the implications. 😀
8 January 2013 at 09:40 #721Re cross posting, site design
I think, better to keep to topic threads, as much as possible. Inevitably they’ll cross-over a bit (haha – that’s why the Grauniad introduced nesting) but I think it will settle down as we use it. There will be an element of being fractured in time/different timelines, but I think it will be manageable. It’s an evolving, organic beastie
Separate topic thread for 7b (it may be quiet to start with but it will evolve its own life, LOL
Can you also add “General” one? (at the moment the General header just has Website as topic thread
Other threads (eg for off-topic, fanfic, youTube links etc) can be created as the demand arises. (OMG I could end up living in here!! It’s feeling far too comfortable already, LOL)
@craig – is it possible to increase the no of recent posts to 10? (I find it really helpful in seeing what’s been updated since I was last on)
8 January 2013 at 09:44 #723The prop-maker isn’t going to go to all the bother of mocking up a newspaper page from 1890s and then reference a completely different period for the other story.
When I was looking up the relevant Prime Ministers, I thought ‘there’s no way this can be a mistake’. The names are utterly different, and Karoe Fumimaro would’ve been aged one in 1892. Plus, it’s unlikely a report from an 1930’s paper would look the same as an 1892 paper – not to a prop maker.
8 January 2013 at 09:47 #725And please don’t shut down topic threads – that’s why we migrated from the G site.
The “most recent posts” will alert people to when someone’s added something if it’s an older thread. Using the @…… format will let posters know if one of their posts has been directly replied to. And I like that you get notifications of when you’ve been referenced
8 January 2013 at 09:52 #727@bluesqueakpip There’s just no way that prop is anything other than deliberate. Why reference a Japanese Prime Minister in a story set in Victorian England anyway….? (50 years later, hmm?)
It’s either a joke or a clue
8 January 2013 at 22:44 #919Found this fantastic theory on youtube:
*Is the character of Clara a representation of Doctor Who? (born 23rd November, loved by children and adults and mourned by both when she died at the age of 26, resurrected in the 21st century etc.)
Find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eu5xtc-x3k
If you count Dr Who failing to get a series after the TV Movie ‘pilot’ then ‘Dr Who’ has died twice.
(Of course if Clara dies every week in 7B then this theory is rubbered).8 January 2013 at 23:01 #933Unless she’s both a representation of ‘Doctor Who’ and a mirror of ‘The Doctor’ (who isn’t yet ‘Doctor Who’). In which case, she’s got eight to ten regenerations to go. 🙂
Which makes me wonder if the 50th is about ‘The Doctor’ becoming ‘Doctor Who’.
8 January 2013 at 23:34 #939hmmmm… well, @everyone(!), great theories and not that I’ve read it, but when I looked up previous ‘multiple Drs’ stories I came across “The Eight Doctors” book, which is about the Dr forgetting who he is (due to the Master) and visiting each previous Dr in turn to remember who he is.
um, not particularly going anywhere with this! Just curious how similar storylines develop (and not surprising really).
loving the “50 year gap” incidental reference btw – must look out for next one!!
8 January 2013 at 23:36 #941OOOH! Nice thinking @wolfweed and @bluesqueakpip
Mind blown with that one. 🙂
Been thinking about 50 years since that post earlier about the approx 50 year discrepancy in the newspaper articles. Didn’t the Ponds get thrown back 50 years? (Or have I made that up – I’m sure it came into the discussions after Angels take Manhattan).
Of course they could just be riffing on a theme…
9 January 2013 at 00:06 #953’50 year gap’ anomalies do seem to suggest the Dr will ‘start at the start again’ like he (sort of) did at the end of ‘The Five Drs’.
9 January 2013 at 00:14 #963According to ‘P.S.’, Amy & Rory were sent back approx 50 years before they were born to roughly 1938.
9 January 2013 at 01:38 #1001Check out the Google homepage today. It looks a lot like the Dr’s pack-lunch-box from ‘The Snowmen’.
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