The Time of The Doctor

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  • #24437
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip yep!  Clara and those clocks -I knew you’d remember that. It was her comment about being born behind the clock that I needed pushing on. I think that there’s a lot more to her: the Impossible girl hasn’t finished. @nick I believe The Moment could have been this ‘one off’ idea for the Anniversary but then it could just as easily be something that could reappear -or …well…where did it go after? Stuck in one of The Doctor’s many boxes under ‘M’?

    If, as others have said, that it contains some gooey vortex energy, then it can’t necessarily be controlled? We call it a weapon. So do the TLs. But how definable is it really? Who is it a weapon for? That interests me, actually…the stopping point.  As for motive:  perhaps it wants to keep on ‘living’? Coercing? Deciding? and reversing itself?

    Kindest, purofilion

    #24438
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick and @Purofilion – The General describes the Moment as ‘having developed a conscience’.

    So its motivation is pretty simple: it’s a weapon of mass destruction that doesn’t want to be used. It’s quite willing to manipulate time in order to not kill 2.74 billion children.

    I did at one point think Clara might be a future Doctor (until Peter Capaldi blew that one out of the water). There really is something ‘Time Lord’ about her; to use Tasha Lem’s words, Clara has absolutely no problem flying the Doctor.

    So if she’s not a future Doctor/descendent of the Doctor, is she a creation of the Moment/the Time Lords? Born, as she says, to save the Doctor. In the Day of the Doctor, the thing she saves him from is blowing up Gallifrey. Since that ties neatly in with the Moment’s motivation (I don’t want to blow up Gallifrey), one wonders if the Moment might have actually manipulated time to create Clara.

    #24439
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick

    Could you not use the Brain of Morbius “faces” to argue that this is the Doctor’s second set of regeneration cycles and that he’s on his third life ?

    You could – which might be the real reason for the cot. The cot shows that Moffat’s not playing an infinite recursion game; the Doctor was once a baby. He was a ‘lonely little boy’ (Girl in the Fireplace, another Moffat script). ‘The Doctor’ is something this baby, this boy, this man became, a promise he made and kept.

    The Day of The Doctor is about the day he broke that promise (and how he found the way back, to keep it after all). The Time of The Doctor is the story of how he kept it till his death – though in the end he didn’t die.

    In terms of ‘story’, for children, it’s a story about someone who made and kept a promise – then broke it, then picked himself up and made it again and tried to keep it again. And by doing that, he became one of the greatest heroes in the universe.

    But he wasn’t born ‘special’, he became special. Whatever his name was, who he is is ‘The Doctor’.

    #24440
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    Absolutely agree with you here:

    So its motivation is pretty simple: it’s a weapon of mass destruction that doesn’t want to be used. It’s quite willing to manipulate time in order to not kill 2.74 billion children.

    but I see postulating from this

    that weapon somehow created Clara (who seems to be a fully human individual) or causing Clara to self create herself (your stable time-loop concept) just so Clara would appear in the right place at the right time to end up in the Doctor’s TimeLine with the GI where she saved the Doctor, just so that She and the Doctor can be in the right place, at right time, in the right frame of mind to meet the Hurt Doctor and Tennant Doctor, so that he can collectively work together to spark the idea which allowed the Doctor  to avoid genocide by using the Moment

    is a super complicated idea. It’s not impossible of course, especially as you’ve explained it, but to me, the revelation of this during series 8 would seem like a quite uninspiring choice to have made as a Production team. I can sort of hear my self saying “Oh really. That’s interesting” …and finding the Clara narrative in series 8 rather underwhelming as a result.

    I have to think that there’s a another solution out there, with a bigger emotional pay-off that ties into what we’ve seen in series 5 to 7 so far, even if we don’t quite realise what it is:

    • Clara as a descendent of Doctor/River might be it, but that seems too obvious for Moffat to use (after all the Doctor really ought to know if they have offspring and I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t have kept an eye on his off spring’s children);
    • A descendent of Susan might work better, but would be quite left field play ?

    Even so, I am expecting something even more of the wall if only on the basis that Moffat likes to drop red herrings on us and both the Susan and River origins have been sign posted before the 50th special judging by the amount of discussion here about it.

    Nick

    #24441
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – the Doctor wouldn’t necessarily know if he had a child by River. That child would be in danger from a) the Kovarian faction and b) the Great Intelligence. River would, I think, be very keen to keep the child safe by keeping its existence a secret – even from the Doctor.

    As to the Moment creating Clara being super-complicated; you did read the sign on the door as you came in, didn’t you? 😀

    #24442
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    I probably didn’t notice the sign on the door ( 🙂 ), but I guess I have a preference for “keeping it simple (ish)” so its a matter of degree more than anything. I guess the Moment idea falls into the “more insane than what’s actually happening” end of the spectrum for me. It is an interesting concept for sure. You’re selling it well !

    I take your point on River/child, but would it be enough of a surprise if that was Clara’s denouement next Christmas ? I guess you also have to think about how Clara gets written out of the Doctor’s story – a daughter (or grand daughter) almost demands multiple returns at future points, which is something I think you’d probably prefer not to leave as a present for your future successors. I’m not sure you could get away with the Susan option in the modern environment for such a special companion.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24443
    ConfusedPolarity @confusedpolarity

    @nick – Your descendant of Susan suggestion is one I’ve pondered over.  I’m assuming that Susan could have had a daughter in the late 60’s who could have given birth in the early-mid 90’s…. which would put Susan’s granddaughter in her early-mid 20’s by 2014.

    There’s something “odd” about Clara as a companion and the importance that seems to be attached to her.  The idea of her being a child of the Doctor & River seems a bit too soap-opera somehow( hate soaps, by the way!), but a more distant descendent, one whose Gallifreyan ancestry has been concealed/forgotten over the generations…. that’s quite a nice possibility.

    It’d also open up the possibility of a guest appearance for the original “companion”, perhaps in Clara’s farewell scene?  It’d probably be difficult for a more modern show to “forget” a descendant of the Doctor’s for decades as happened originally I agree, but at least of she’s dropped on modern Earth it could be done easily.  After one or two casual appearances in the first few years after she leaves, it’d be possible to phase her out, I’d think.

    #24444
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    We have another relative of a sort of the doctor that could be considered though just how this relative would have got to earth to create a descendant who could be Clara does elude me….. Of course I am referring to jenny from the doctors daughter. Now I know the last we saw her she was jetting or should I say rocketing off into space and how she or a descendant could end up on earth in the “present”, ouch time travel tenses really make my brain hurt, but it would be a possibility to be considered if we are considering that Clara is some sort of relative to the doctor. Though technically I suppose jenny could be considered as a sister much as meta crisis doctor could be considered a “brother” to the doctor,( oh my it’s starting to sound like Babylon 5 dialog “zathras serves the one and the one “lol.) what I am trying to say is there must be other possibilities for who are Clara’s relatives that may or may not be the doctors relative.

    #24446
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip ‘The Doctor’ is something this baby, this boy, this man became, a promise he made and kept. The Day of The Doctor is about the day he broke that promise (and how he found the way back, to keep it after all). The Time of The Doctor is the story of how he kept it till his death – though in the end he didn’t die.

    In terms of ‘story’, for children, it’s a story about someone who made and kept a promise – then broke it, then picked himself up and made it again and tried to keep it again. And by doing that, he became one of the greatest heroes in the universe.

    But he wasn’t born ‘special’, he became special. Whatever his name was, who he is is ‘The Doctor’.

    This is really lovely, such a great metaphor for how we all struggle to be the best that we can.

     

    #24447
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip  @nick   @purofilion

    I myself would be more inclined to guess that Clara had not been created as such, but manipulated into become what she is. So in a sense, the Clara that we know has been created, not physically, but through the experiences that she has been put through.

    That being said, there can be no denying the strong presence of the clock metaphors throughout the Smith era. I had forgotten about the “born behind the clock” business, but it does suggest that Clara ties in with the metaphor in some way.

    @confusedpolarity  I also prefer Clara as a more distant descendent (if she has to be one at all, I’m still not convinced I like that idea on an emotional level).

    By the way, I’d say that Clara in fact has far less trouble “flying the doctor” than the Time Lords did!

    #24449
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @arbutus, @confusedpolarity

    For a long time I was attracted to the idea of Clara as the daughter of River and the Doctor. Does this mean I am attracted to soaps? I don’t think I am. However, given my fond memory of “A Family at War” (what a great show) I probably am! Anyway, given everything that has happened on the show since Clara first apppeared, I am reluctantly abandoning that idea of her being their daughter. (Of course, given my track record of unsuccessful predictions, by abandoning the idea, it probably means she IS their daughter after all!)

    Nonetheless, until I am convinced otherwise, that scene by the cot still implies to me that the Doctor and River did have a child.  And that the story of River is not over yet.

    #24452
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion

    Your posts are always fun to read.  Once again you managed to make me laugh out loud.  You definitely have a gift for writing which allows your feelings to shine through.  I apologize for the short reply regarding your idea Re the Doctor behind the crack.  It wasn’t because I didn’t think it was interesting. As I said before, it is certainly possible, but it really did make my head explode when I tried to think on it at the time.  My favorite aspect of the Doctor sending the energy to himself is: it would assure many more years of Doctor Who on television.  I say this because (as you pointed out, the Doctor has always been running away from himself – so 50 years of stories?) I think it would take 50 more years to put in place the elaborate timey-wimey business to place the Doctor behind the crack.  To me, 50 more years of DW could never be considered a bad result 😉 .  Btw, I re-watched TotD last night, and noticed that it absolutely proves the crack was inside of room eleven (nice call 🙂 from TGC discussion). I can’t explain not seeing it the other times I watched TotD?  But the jury is still out on who was behind it (TLs, Bad Wolf, River, or the Doctor 😉 – possibly none of the above? ).

    @fatmaninabox and @bluesqueakpip – I think the following question might interest you.  😉

    If the Moment was stolen by Capt Grumpy and we saw it being used, at what point did it cease being needed?

    I am so glad you asked that question, @Purofilion.  The answer to that question is why I favor Bad Wolf being behind the crack at Trenzalore.  As we know, the Moment is a weapon of mass destruction that can sit in judgment over whoever uses it.  I think when the “BRB”was pressed, the Moment became Bad Wolf and destroyed all the TLs and Daleks. On that time line, Bad Wolf existed on Gallifrey, until it could sit in judgment over the Doctor for using it.  I think Trenzalore was the place the Doctor would be judged by Bad Wolf.  “Doctor Who?”(War Doctor or The Doctor) was what Bad Wolf needed to know, before passing judgment.  When Clara spoke through the crack, it was her testimony that he was The Doctor (the one who never pressed the “BRB” according to the  DotD  time line).  So Bad Wolf found the Doctor not guilty and gave more regeneration energy to him.  And now following the DotD time line, Bad Wolf doesn’t exist because the “BRB”wasn’t pressed. However, the Moment still remains somewhere waiting for someone to press the button.

    #24453
    Anonymous @

    Ah @barnable  indeedey… yes, so we can say that The Moment doesn’t necessarily have a stopping point but does it have a starting point?  Obviously, once stolen and taken to the ‘little hut’ by the War Doctor it started to tick and click and then boom…Bad Wolf/Rose interface appears. It’s able to connect the dots and move across time to the other doctors, shifting even the TARDIS (“it’s hope to everyone” says The Moment to Mr Hurt). Does this mean that it can judge The Doctor’s other actions well before this particular position (or super position) in space and time?

    I think, whilst confusing, it most certainly can. If it’s sentient and possibly contains vortex material, then it could intervene at any point creating not only Clara but a whole lotta other possibilities. Frankly, I think that would be very confusing as I mentioned that The Moment was designed (with Rose in mind) to be a shout out to all the viewers for an appropriate Anniversary episode. They did that…would referring to it again be passé?

    To continue your line of reasoning, Bad Wolf was sitting in judgement and then was also used (successfully) by Rose (as Bad Wolf/Rose) to destroy Daleks and give life to Capt Jack -it existed over all space and time (via Rose) so that makes sense.

    If it contains vortex material, came from The TARDIS which came from Gallifrey which had the sentient weapon made from all sorts of Time Energy then The Moment could be not just Bad Wolf (or bad Wolf being The Moment) but other weaponry or even people (such as Clara). It could also have helped the 10th Doctor locate his Rose in the universe before it was closed off forever. It might also have delivered the 10th Doctor (with the one heart; the aging Doctor) to that same place or existence with Rose.  All bonkers… but if The Moment has no stopping point then it figures it has no starting point either. It perpetuates itself. The moment The Moment was stolen 🙂 it begins to refract around the universes scrutinising everything and causing mysterious events…

    So I’ve created, no doubt,  an overheated atmosphere or manifestation of melodrama and distortion in a black hole petri dish within a stampede of colliding theories…but without the formulaic explanation that is most likely The Truth 🙂

    Kindest, purofilion

    #24454
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus and @nick @ Barnable could we not suggest that if Clara was ‘born behind the clock’ and was begging for the TLs/whoever was behind the Crack for help on behalf of the Doctor…. did she receive something else beyond help for the Doctor? Being ‘born’ intrigues me here.

    Is it a ‘born again’ realisation of her new-found position? -one fact being  the Doctor and Clara have discussed The Time War (which is heard as a throwaway line in the Anniversary) although we know that in previous episodes there was no real suggestion of that discussion taking place? Were there other Claras suddenly being ‘made’ (beyond the claricles) as she whispered through the Crack in the Clock Tower?

    The truth field interests me too. This is, according to the Doctor, TL tech. But I suppose that it could be Bad Wolf/The Moment technology also. Part of its sentience (and of Bad Wolf) is that whilst mysterious and inscrutable, it’s truthful and factual (providing it’s not interfering when it’s inappropriate to do so). Could the truth field work differently in that it provides the person  -perhaps the Doctor and Clara with a kind of ‘amnesia land’ where old land marks are possible but left disarranged so they’re slightly recognisable …but just out of reach.

    I thought that the town of Christmas -just about always dark- was like a place in between night and day -a dreamscape.: the horizon could move and shift and leave you adrift, confused. Maybe Clara always returns to that place in which she was once marooned: a place she recognises, in dreams, that was her real birth place. Near that clock. I recall now that little children’s rhyme: “tick tock goes the clock….” yep, forgotten the rest!

    #24455
    Anonymous @

    darn that msg  above was for @barnable too. All because of a space bar. Space. mmm.

    #24457
    Nick @nick

    @purofilion @barnable

    One question/observation for you both. First a proviso – since I haven’t read any fan discussion around what “Bad Wolf” has been interpreted to be, I may be about to shoot myself in the foot with this !

    I may be mis-interpreting what you’ve written (it wouldn’t be my first time) but I it looks to me that you’re arguing that Bad Wolf is a separate entity in its own right with its own existence and role ?

    This is a great idea, but I had thought that Rose became Bad Wolf for a couple of minutes when she was exposed to the heart of the Tardis. In these minutes, she did various things (saving the Doctor, Jack, Earth, destroying that lot of Daleks, sending clues into the universe to help Rose become the Bad Wolf at the right time etc).

    Whilst we can infer that she might have done various other things as well, I don’t think there was an intention on RTD’s point that we should draw this sort of inference. If, for example, Rose/Bad Wolf had surveyed the Doctor’s future time line, her own or even Jack’s I’m sure she would have fixed the end of series 2 so that Rose and D11 (as he now is) stayed together and not made Jack immortal.

    Thanks

    Nick

     

    #24458
    Anonymous @

    @purofilion

    Those are interesting questions you are raising, but presently the vacuity of my mind has left me vicariously void of excogitations on Clara’s birth and clock towers.   I’m vexed at my incapacitation to vociferously voice any valid cognition, which seem veiled from my vision and inexplicably lost in vortex of my imagination. 🙂

     

    @nick

    Yes you are correct that I am saying they are two different entities in a sense (kind of like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde or Incredible Hulk/Bruce Banner).  The Box in DotD (before the BRB is pressed) is the Moment. After the “BRB” is pressed it gets out of the Box and becomes Bad Wolf.  The same Bad Wolf we saw in TPotW, since that episode happens after the War Doctor pressed the “BRB”. 

    But later in DotD, we see Eleven go back and stop War Doctor from pressing the “BRB”.  This creates two seperate time lines, on one the “BRB” is pressed and one it is not pressed. 

    The time line where “BRB” is pressed happened first, so in DofD the interface is actually Bad Wolf (looks like Rose), the Box is the Moment.

    #24459
    Nick @nick

    @barnable

    Both myself and @bluesqueakpip have written blog posts explaining how we think DotD changed the Doctor’s timeline. Bluesqueakpip’s opinion (which is generally accepted on here I think) is that is definitely a change from “Gallifrey destroyed” to “Gallifrey disappears”, which occurs during and as a result of DofD. My own view differs in that I think the “Gallifrey disappears” version can be accommodated without any change (although that creates problems). In either case, we don’t think there are two time lines, but one (Gallifrey disappears) which completely replaces what happened previously.

    If you accept that the time line changes (and you seem to do so), then I think its fair to draw an inference that everything that happened to the Doctor/Universe between the end of the time war and the DotD, which we saw happen in AG Who series 1 to 7, may well have changed or have been different from what we saw, from the point at which the Doctor rewrites history in DotD.

    The changed version of AG Who, may well be similar to  what happened before (but we don’t know for sure as we haven’t seen that time line so far as I can see), but we don’t know. On top of this, I think you can argue that the combination of the GI and Clara in the Doctor’s timeline is likely to have created reasonably sizeable changes from the version of Who we have seen from an Unearthly Child onwards as well.

    I’m the first to admit, this is what I understood happened in DotD and Series 7 (and we saw quite large changes for example to the Dalek/Doctor history in Asylum of the Daleks for example). Please feel free to tell me that I misunderstood ! Personally I didn’t really like this much at all (and didn’t think it was necessary either), but I haven’t read anyone who explains things differently.

    So, in my opinion, we can’t be sure that Bad Wolf even happened anymore and if it did, it probably wasn’t what we saw on screen back in series 1. That said, I’m not convinced that the Moment’s O/S is Bad Wolf anyway. The Moment’s sentient AI operating system chose to appear as Rose to facilitate communication (paraphrasing what it said in DotD). I don’t see anything there that suggests that it’s “Bad Wolf Rose” that appears )or even to stop it from choosing Martha, Donna, Amy or Rory appearance instead surely ?). I agree with you that its possible to postulate that “Bad Wolf” continues to exist through out time,

    I agree with you and others in this discussion, that the Moment is a very unusual and powerful entity able to manipulate time and that allows us to propose ideas which explain the unexplained elements of the Doctor’s history and Clara, like Bluesqueakpip’s suggestion that the Moment “created” Clara (and its a really nice idea I admit), but I don’t see the need to go back to the Bad Wolf concept to explain any of this this. Am I missing something here ?

    Thanks

    Nick

    #24460
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    Everything I said fits the two time lines explained by @bluesqueakpip.  Two time lines are created when the Moment is used (“BRB” is pressed).  I’m sorry I couldn’t explain it better, so you could see that. 

    Thanks Barnable

    #24461
    Nick @nick

    @barnable

    🙂 I think we agree on that, but probably not on how you interpret what happened as a result.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24462
    demafromua @demafromua

    Maybe a strange question, but do you think its possible?

    Second series, Doctor tells, that parallel dimensions are off-limits. Then, during battle with Daleks and Cyberman he looses Rose to this parallel dimensions and the only thing Doc can do is connect to it to create this touching conversation. But, as I remember, the only reason for parallel dimensions to be off-limits for travellers, is the non-existence oа Time Lords, which, as we know has know been retconed. So, is it possible for Doctor to bring Rose back now? And, by the way, is WhoLock now possible (Moffat denied possibility of the crossover because Sherlock is fictional in Doctor’s universe, but parallel dimensions can withstand it without any damage to canon)?

    #24463
    Whisht @whisht

    Have we had Clara as the Doctor’s mother recently?

    I’m sure this came up before, but with the plea at the crack “If you love him…” being a very motherly thing, she may of course have been answered by her older self on Gallifrey.

    ok, that’s bonkers, but not any more bonkers than others!

    🙂

    TBH (and not being bonkers) I really hope she’s not related – I’ve never needed Susan to be explained, or other family members to come forward, though I’m sure if I’d read Lungbarrow I guess I would. and also not being bonkers, I really like Jenna as an actress but I think that she’s been lumbered by this ‘impossible girl’ tag, which I think is hard for her to realise. Unfortunately I think this will be her last season.

    sigh

    Apologies – I blame my cold for that shocking lack of bonkersness!

    btw – if the TLs manage to snoop on and even gently manipulate our universe through the Cracks, they might actually prefer not being ‘saved’…

    #24464
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    Ok, I haven’t given a clear explanation of what I think happens to the Doctor’s time line as a result of the Bad Wolf theory.  I believe it looks exactly like the one already outlined by @bluesqueakpip.

     The stories we watched happen during the AG episodes happened on the time line where the “BRB” was pressed (Moment was used).  Nothing would change on that time line. This has to be the case because many of those episodes involved Bad Wolf (who would not have existed if the “BRB” had not been pressed). 

     After the DotD episode, I believe another time line was created where the “BRB” was not pressed. We never saw any of what happened on that time line at all (except TotD episode).  This should make sense because all of the Doctors we saw, believed they had destroyed all the TLs and Daleks, which could never have happened if they never pressed the “BRB”. On this time line Gallifrey was saved by what happened in DotD. Gallifrey was put into stasis cubes (frozen in paintings) and the Daleks destroyed themselves.

     Both of these time lines existed at the same time, until we get to TotD.  I believe that the time line we all watched happen (the “BRB” was pressed time line) came to an end in tTotD episode.  That time line merged into a single time line after TotD episode where the “BRB” was never pressed, and that is the only time line from that point on. On this time line Gallifrey is in the paintings and since this is the time line the “BRB” was not pressed (Moment never used), the Bad Wolf never existed on this time line.

     I don’t think these time lines are different than the ones diagramed by @bluesqueakpip. The only thing that is different is how it happened. I have tried to explain how I believe this happened previously so I won’t write it all again.   

    What I might not have explained earlier, is that, in the TotD episode I beleive the time line we all watched (“BRB” pressed) was on the other side of the crack at Trenzalore.  On that time line the Bad Wolf still existed on Gallifrey after the destruction. But at the end of the episode, I believe that time line ended after the regeneration energy came through  the crack and the crack closed. That is when the two time lines became one time line again (“BRB” never pressed).

    Thanks for reading this, Barnable 🙂

     

    #24465
    demafromua @demafromua

    @barnable

    Maybe I’m wrong, but I thought the War Doctor got his memory replaced to think that he destroyed the TLs and Daleks and thus do not f*ck the timeline up (since Tenth and Eleventh didn’t know about TLs being alive, he couldn’t keep this knowledge). So, I think, timeline is still in place. I think, we have more interesting thing to discuss with the return of TLs – parallel dimensions and timeline changes (both options were locked by the abscense of TLs, but that’s not exactly true  now).

    #24466
    Anonymous @

    @barnable  -what’s the matter with that cogitation?  Vociferous but clear. Before, I could see that for a Moment  you had the alliteration bug but like, sentient weapons, I like those type of bugs!  @nick  remember what is at the entrance to this hallowed forum:  Be bonkers. Works for me. I may at times avoid common sense, but that’s OK mate: as we say down under….

    @demafromua  I haven’t see you here before -welcome!  But haven’t we seen the end of Rose and Tennant: all that wailing!  I couldn’t handle it and almost stopped watching 🙂

    @whisht    I agree, it’s great to speculate but Susan is Susan and Clara is Clara. I suspect one more round for her, too. Seemingly,  River had the most shelf life.

    Kindest, purofilion

    #24467
    Anonymous @

    @demafromua

    Hello, glad you read my theory. Sorry its not the one you believe in, but that’s fine with me. That’s what this forum is for.  Read a theory you do agree with or post your own.  I’m not trying to change your mind, believe whatever you want, but I won’t stop posting my ideas just because you don’t agree with them.

    Be Well Barnable 🙂

    #24468
    demafromua @demafromua

    @purofilion Thank you for your welcome) Yeah, maybe the last few episodes of Rose/Doctor were over the top, but still. she is the first companion of the Modern Age and this makes her an important character. And I think, that’s why they never killed her – they wanted to bring her back one for some epic story arc or at least episode (like “Five Doctors” of Classic series or “Day\Time of the Doctor” of the new one). Actually, I was expecting her for the last one, but they did even better trick – granted Doc new load of lives, so no complains. So, I think they’ll return her in some kind of special and, I suppose, without Tennant it would be better – Twelfth Doctor seems much more calm and mature and Rose nature is nothing like this, so it might be fun. I woudn’t even complain if she was brought back as a proper companion (at least for some time) or went on her own as a spin-off (we still have a whole cast of “Torchwood” on hiatus and according to the end of the series, they really need some new recruits).

    #24469
    demafromua @demafromua

    @barnable Whoa, whoa, easier! I’m not arguing with you, I’m just playing Devil’s Advocate – someone who is criticizes other theories to make their authors find more proof and expand them to make the theories perfect. That’s all) And your theory is very nice (we haven’t got good timeline riddles in “Doctor Who” for a while), but you really lack the Occam’s Razor principle – the simplest explanation is sometimes the most accurate. We haven’t seen such big timeline-connected event in “Doctor Who” yet and while I agree that this would be cool, I wonder what amount of headache it would bring on writers since most of the show actually happened in different timeline (or maybe it’s just me getting your theory wrong, if that’s so – I’m truly sorry).

    #24472
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht

    Unfortunately I think this will be her last season.

    That sounds like your cold talking. 🙂

    Moffat’s previous set of companions stayed for two-and-a-half series. I think it’s going to depend on whether Jenna Coleman works well with Peter Capaldi; if she does, I’d guess she’ll also stay for the two-and-a-half. That would take her to the end of Series 9. If Capaldi’s hoping for three series, that would mean a new companion could then be brought in (probably by the new producer) to be the ‘crossover’ companion for Capaldi’s regeneration.

    #24473
    Anonymous @

    @demafromua

    I apologize too. I completely misinterpreted what I read.  Sorry to start off on such a rocky road.  Good thing this is the Doctor Who forum, so we can just go back and start over.

    Glad to meet you, hope you get to meet all the nice people here, and can’t wait to read some of your bonkers theories.

    Thanks Barnable 🙂

    #24474
    Nick @nick

    @purofilion

    “remember what is at the entrance to this hallowed forum:  Be bonkers. Works for me. I may at times avoid common sense, but that’s OK mate: as we say down under….”

    I have tremendous respect for everyone here who post their ideas let alone bonkers theories (sorry if that’s not so obvious). But as we say in the UK, the proof of the pudding in in the eating, which suggests to me that we collectively need to test each theory (to destruction) via debate. Hopefully, we (collectively) won’t argue to much !

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24475
    Nick @nick

    @barnable

    Hi there. I think I see the difference between our point of views now:

     Both of these time lines existed at the same time, until we get to TotD.  I believe that the time line we all watched happen (the “BRB” was pressed time line) came to an end in tTotD episode.  That time line merged into a single time line after TotD episode where the “BRB” was never pressed, and that is the only time line from that point on.

    My point of view is that only  one time line exists and that the first one (your BRB one) ceased to exist at the end of DotD and was replaced entirely by a new one (which is mostly unseen as you say). The new one ought to be quite similar to the old one, but it shouldn’t be the same. We’re 99 % of the same opinion otherwise.

    As for your explanation regarding the role of the Crack – thanks for this as it (I think) is very interesting. I’ll ponder further.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24476
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick

    we collectively need to test each theory (to destruction) via debate.

    A valid point. But since this isn’t a university tutorial, you are allowed to say ‘good theory, I agree’. 😀

    #24478
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    absolutely 🙂

    Nick

    #24479
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    z
    What this head needs is some ‘Handles’…

    #24480
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @demafromua

    you really lack the Occam’s Razor principle – the simplest explanation is sometimes the most accurate.

    William of Ockham, bless him, had many good things to say. However, telling people on this forum that they’re not using the simplest explanation is a bit like announcing that there’s a lot of sand in the desert, or that the sea is a bit wet. 😈

    See our mission statement …

    #24481
    Debs @debs

    So, I managed to watch the Time of the Doctor like last night. It was not simple to find here in Italy! 🙁

    Anyway, I was totally moved… and upset! I bow to Moffat 😀

    Something started to spin round and round in my head, some strange ideas : the Doctor was given of a new cicle of rigenerations (right?) : I’d like to know if you guys think the next one it’s gonna be the last season… or maybe not!!!

     

     

    Love!

    #24482
    Nick @nick

    @debs

    Hi there. In “theory” there’s another at least another 40 years to go – (13 doctors at 3 years apiece) with the new regeneration cycle.

    The real answer is unknown as it depends on the audience size and appreciation being good enough to satisfy BBC management and convince them to fund the budget. Since both remain strong right now and the global audience ( = non-licence fee BBC revenue) is growing nicely I don’t think there’s going to be a problem for the foreseeable future (fingers crossed).

    Nick

    #24483
    demafromua @demafromua

    @nick

    The problem is, though, that the series may become boring. Not right now, but I thing you’ll agree that after Davies left there’s only one good writer and his name is Moffat. Others are fine for fillers, but it’s only him who moves the series on. And he is a) busy with Sherlock, sequel to Tintin and upcoming other projects; b) not immortal. And right now I don’t see other writer on BBC who would be able to replace him. In worldwide scale – maybe Neil Gaiman would. If he’d want it. So even though I really like Doctor, I would really like to see the very end of the series. Not the boring crap when there’s no more money to make out of the show, but the most beautiful final journey. But, anyway, we have 5-6 years before Moffat would leave (fingers crossed).

    #24488
    Nick @nick

    @demafromua

    I guess  most of series 8 is written or close to being finished anyway, so its series 9, which will be written in 2014. How difficult that is I guess depends on whether Moffat has chosen to leave at the end of series 8 or not (They haven’t announced anything so far as I’m aware, but I guess the decision has been or will be taken soon if it hasn’t already).

    I’m not sure who would replace Moffat (Mark Gatiss is certainly one choice), but Who survived in the past reasonably well when the Produce/Script Editor team who ran the show weren’t the same obvious fans as RTD and Moffat (and Gatiss) are. However, we’re learning that more and more serious actors were fans during their childhood, so I think its a fair bet there are some professional behind the scenes guys with the right sort of TV experience who could take over even if we’re not aware of them today publically.

    The real point about Who is that it has had a series of Era’s which have been stylistically different and mostly worked well. This plus semi-regular changes in the Doctor and companion roles, really do act to keep things interesting for the audience I think. Its a family show, so even if you think the core target is 6 to 15 year olds (and their parents), there’s a natural turnover in that audience as a result, which really means you are allowed to revisit story ideas every 5 or so years, so long as it looks and feels fresh to the viewer (in the DVD age). I think Who can continue on this basis for another 50 years so long as the underlying premise remains enjoyable.

    TV being TV (and its a medium in flux to a degree), probably means that the next hiatus will come quite abruptly in practice. Even so, I think the concept is flexible enough that it would never be killed off in a way that say Breaking Bad, Buffy etc have been. Even Buffy could come back I suppose :). On this basis, I don’t ever see there being a final journey in the way you suggest.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24489
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @demafromua – of course Steven Moffat is the main writer for ‘moving the series on’. He’s the Head Writer. That’s his job.

    The Before Gap series lasted twenty seven years, through ten producers and about fifteen script editors. I’m kinda hoping the After Gap series will reach that before Who has to be ‘rested’ again.

    My personal betting is on a Moffat exit after Series Eight or Nine, btw. He has already said that Series Seven took him over the halfway mark – which suggests a four or five series run as Head Writer. That the greenlight has already been given for Series Nine suggests either that Moffat might be staying until the end of Nine – or alternatively, that the BBC has agreed the new Head Writer.

    #24491
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Right wading back into the timelines debate why are we essentially debating weather certain events happened. Now this is my own opinion but both timelines are actually interchangeable as the actions of the doctor will remain the same. Now bear with me on this the main debate seems to be revolving around the BRB having/having not been pushed and weather the Moment and bad wolf being one entity. As to the first it doesn’t really matter if the button was or was not pushed as the doctors actions were dictated by his belief and uncertainty weather gallifrey still existed and his survivors guilt, the events still happened, his guilt still existed just the reason for that guilt were slightly different. His eventual guilt was only alleviated by the realisation of galliferys fate by the events of DOTD. The ultimate events on trenzalore and the “death” of the doctor may have more to do with the possibility of potential events. It maybe that the graveyard timeline was only a possible future that has essentially not occurred, someone once said possibility has more power than actuality and may only be a causal paradox which produced the results in TOTD.

    Oh my my head hurts after that round of paradoxal thinking.

    As to the Moment and badwolf being one entity I believe that it is possible for them both to be aspects of a single entity, but be separate… This would revolve around the fact that they are in some way are part of the time vortex which I have previously suppositioned has it’s own “cosmic” consciousness, given this it would be feasible that such an entity would be able to fragment itself into distinct aspects. This may be something similar to the way the tardis considered itself and other tardises when referring to them as sisters in TDW, they all partake/use the time vortex so are connected but are separate.

    Now I may be totally way off the mark and expect there to be disagreement with the above comments but that is what the forum is for 🙂 so happy discussion

    #24492
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @demafromua

    I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with this. The world is full of fabulous writers. Some of those “filler writers” may well have their own (brilliant) ideas about how to move the series on. We don’t know yet! Some new writers may join the DW team over the coming seasons, bringing new themes and ideas into play. And although we can’t really know anything for sure, personally I think that Moffat is unlikely to stay another five or six years. He has said things himself that hint at this. But DW hasn’t survived 50 years by being the product of only one mind, so I have no fear!  🙂  (By the way, welcome to the forum!)

    #24493
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick @purofilion @barnable

    If “Bad Wolf” has become something other than what @nick has described, then it is because Moffat has retconned it that way, not because it was intended that way initially. This is not out of the question, of course, as we know! However, I’m personally disinclined to assume that something previously established has been changed, unless I see something pretty clear in the scripts to support it.

    Although, I’m not sure that this actually follows: If, for example, Rose/Bad Wolf had surveyed the Doctor’s future time line, her own or even Jack’s I’m sure she would have fixed the end of series 2 so that Rose and D11 (as he now is) stayed together and not made Jack immortal.  Because if Bad Wolf/The Moment is the all powerful being that @barnable suggests, it might have had its own, bigger reasons for Jack to be immortal or Rose to be in the alternate universe. I’m not suggesting that I think that, myself, only that we can’t assume that it wouldn’t have been true.

    @barnable   No problem with poetry, though, apparently  🙂 :   the vacuity of my mind has left me vicariously void of excogitations on Clara’s birth and clock towers.   I’m vexed at my incapacitation to vociferously voice any valid cognition, which seem veiled from my vision and inexplicably lost in vortex of my imagination. 

    #24494
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip   @demafromua

    I spend much of my time on here saying “Good theory, I agree.” Sometimes I say, “Good theory, but I don’t agree,” but I don’t always have a good reason, other than “This other idea makes me happier”!  🙂

    However, telling people on this forum that they’re not using the simplest explanation is a bit like announcing that there’s a lot of sand in the desert, or that the sea is a bit wet.

    True, indeed. I myself tend to go for the obvious explanation, although I can enjoy a good bonkers theory without agreeing with it, as long as it has some nice logic and inner consistency, which they tend to have around here. I find that if something doesn’t convince me emotionally, on a storytelling level, then I will tend not to believe in it. But reading the stuff on here is a bit like reading about higher order mathematics: I myself don’t have much use for numbers that I can’t use to count change, or how many cookies I have left, but I can appreciate the elegance nonetheless!  🙂

    Bonker on, everyone!

     

    #24501
    Anonymous @

    Hello everyone, I’m sure you all hates this topic now, but I have to try one more time to clearly explain what I was saying.  The good news is I will never try again.

    <CROWD CHEERS>

     @Arbutus @devilishrobby

     When I said that Bad Wolf (in DotD) was the same Bad Wolf (in tPotW) it was confusing. Nothing changes from what we saw happen in tPotW (everything we saw happen still happens).  Rose absorbed energy which turned her into the Bad Wolf we saw in tPotW.  But Rose was never really Bad Wolf (at least not IMO). I think Bad Wolf is the energy that was inside of her.  That energy is what I meant by “the same Bad Wolf in both episodes”. 

     In DotD, I believe Bad Wolf (the energy) chose to “look like Rose”, but could have chose to look like Rory, Amy, River. But it would not have been the real life version of those people we know. It just chose to look like them for two reasons:

    1. To communicate with the Doctor in a form Bad Wolf thought was familiar to him (on screen reason)
    2. Some actor had to play Bad Wolf in the DotD, Billie Piper got the part (off screen reason)

     In DotD, Billie Piper is playing the part of the Moment Interface (that is what she says she is).  Even if that is true, which I agree could very well be, I never thought it was actually Rose sitting there.  Billie Piper is just the actor playing the part of the Moment Interface or Bad Wolf.  She is not playing the part of Rose Tyler, in either case.  (IMO)

     The Moment being two entities seems to be confusing also. My best explanation is that the Moment/Bad Wolf are exactly like Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde or Incredible Hulk/Bruce Banner.  They are one entity in two different forms.  On the time line where the “BRB” was pressed it is in the form of Bad Wolf (the energy form – that is the time line we all saw happen, nothing changes or happens differently).  On the time line where the “BRB” is never pressed it exists as the Moment (the box form).  Pressing the button is what triggers the change from the Moment (the Box) into Bad Wolf (the energy). They are one entity that exists on two different time lines in different forms depending on which time line you are on. (“BRB pressed or not pressed).

     If you are ROTFLYAO at this point, I will now join you. 🙂

     Barnable

    #24502
    Whisht @whisht

    @barnable – I surrender.

    🙂

    actually, weird as it seems (and believe me, what I’m about to say is as much a shock to me as it will be to you) I now understand what you’re getting at.

    I’ll blame the headcold for not getting it up till now, and the lack of alcohol in my bloodstream for finally getting it!

    I LIKE IT!

    and entities that dont have a corporeal form but can take on different ones…? well, its not like there isn’t previous in the annals of Who.

    I salute thee (but not with alcohol – I may try this whole abstanation thing even after this cold!)

    🙂

    #24503
    Anonymous @

    @barnable  no don’t stop the talk and the theories –I got you the first time. LOL:” I’m sure you all hates this theory now”  Problem is, I then weighed in with all sorts of wacko ideas which people then spent a lot of time deliberating. Your idea/theory is both clear and sensible and creative. @demafromua   what about Toby Whithouse?   There are, as @arbutus suggested many fantastic director/writers not just Gattis and Gaiman (I like him but frankly for Who only part-time, for which I’ll be shouted down I’m sure!).

    As for simplest ideas (Occam: thanks for reminding us of him 🙂 ) nope, The Moff has always gone for complicated (well, not totally bonkers complicated, but still).

    @devilishrobby I loved the causal paradox theory. Good one. I woke up this morning to all this theorising before the morning Coffee God: not good. On top of that, it’s back to work tomorrow. When I began on here I hadn’t been to work (Long Service Leave) and going back with an ear and eye on this Great Forum, will be a wonderful distraction when I have to sit through dreadful bureaucratic meetings. Although I can talk with the physics guy about Who now!

    @whisht have you heard the one about the lemon and the scotch for colds? You make a hot toddy and put a lemon at the end of the bed. You add scotch to the toddy and keep adding and drinking said scotch until you can no longer see the lemon. Cold gone!  Of course, your liver will also ‘go’  Be well, as @barnable says…..

    @bluesqueakpip I would say (without the coffee yet) ‘you can tutor me any time’. I love tutes: when someone else gives them. I sit in rooms with students staring at me whilst they’re under going ‘gymnastics’ under the desk with their iPods and smartphones. I get no response. They almost drool from boredom. This is life.

    Kindest to you all

    purofilion

    #24505
    Arjay @arjay

    You guys are going to give me a mind meltdown. 🙂

    I for one am fine with thinking there was only the one timeline. I see no need for a separate timeline as an original cause for Bad Wolf to manifest itself as the Moment’s conscience. After all, from the very start Bad Wolf created itself. She has a circular existence. So I don’t think it’s a stretch that she also reached back as far as the Moment and incarnating as the conscience in order to set up her own existence. This could just be how she nudged the Doctor to meeting Rose subconsciously.

    #24508
    Anonymous @

    Hi @arjay   Welcome to you.   So are you implying that Bad Wolf and/ or The Moment are one entity?  Are you suggesting that The Moment (being part of the vortex energy, potentially) exists across time and, as such, can cause or co-exist with Bad Wolf (appreciating that the Moment, as suggested by @barnable, could be any interface or ‘person/a Rory/ an Amy’)?

    Kindest, purofilion

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