BBC Approved Spoilers

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  • #47021
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @bendubz11   @blusqueakpip  … Clara is The Valeyard.  As one of the aliases was `Jack the Ripper’ I sincerely hope not! But by this point, SM has thrown so many pieces onto the table along no doubt with many red herrings, I’m open to almost anything in terms of how it all shakes out….

    #47030
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @bluesqueakpip  Apologies with the typo in the first attempt to reply; trying again. … Clara is The Valeyard.  As one of the aliases was `Jack the Ripper’ I sincerely hope not! But by this point, SM has thrown so many pieces onto the table along no doubt with many red herrings, I’m open to almost anything in terms of how it all shakes out….

    #47059
    janetteB @janetteb

    @countscarlioni

    But by this point, SM has thrown so many pieces onto the table along no doubt with many red herrings, I’m open to almost anything in terms of how it all shakes out….

    I echo that. I seem to be drowning in theories and possibilities. I think Moffat has left so many red herrings lying about that, to mix the metaphor, it is like wading through a fish sorting factory. I am enjoying reading everyone else’s inventive and clever theories and waiting to see how it all unravels. (I blame the metaphors on Moffat. I can’t even write a coherent sentence now, reflecting my current state of confusion.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #47167
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @janetteb     I think Moffat has left so many red herrings lying about that, to mix the metaphor, it is like wading through a fish sorting factory  Yes indeed! Though I do think @bendubz11 has found the twist that gets us off the path leading inexorably to Clara’s death. The Doctor and Clara will be separated, but it’s the Doctor who will do the “dying” (perhaps though on my part this is hope triumphing over reason).

    #47206
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    BBC has just announced the run time for the final 2 episodes:

    Heaven Sent – 55 minutes, 8.05 – 9pm Saturday 28 November

    Hell Bent – 1hour, 5 minutes, 8-9.05pm Saturday 5 December.

    Great to see extended finals – especially as we only have 12 episodes again and all the episodes so far Have been standard lengths

    #47249
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
    #47296
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb and @countscarlioni

    I agree. I seem to have come up with a plethora of bonkers theories this series, but haven’t really been able to pick up one through line.

    Okay. I’m not sure what’s going properly bonkers in the actual Spoilers forum, but I’m guessing that there are strong rumours regarding who dies in Face The Raven. [Disclaimer: I know nothing]. However, the latest video the BBC has released

    absolutely screams ‘The Doctor’ to me. Not Clara.

    Three reasons: one, Clara’s reaction is very similar to her reaction in Before the Flood. She’s not scared of dying herself. She’s lost too many people (her mother, her partner) and she’s terrified of losing the Doctor.

    Two, Clara is the Magician’s Apprentice. And an essential moment in The Heroine’s Journey is the point where the young heroine loses her mentor – and has to step up and win the battle by herself.

    Thematically, it being the Doctor who dies to save Clara would also fit Clara’s long term arc, which is one of people sacrificing themselves to save someone else. Clara sacrifices herself to save the Doctor (and gets rescued by the Doctor), the Doctor sacrifices himself to save Christmas and the Time Lords (and gets rescued by Clara), Danny sacrifices himself to save Clara (but rescues the boy he killed instead of himself).

    There’s a lot of ‘stolen death and/or stolen life’ in this series, as well. The ghosts whose death is stolen, the Daleks who can’t die, only decay, Me with her death replaced by an endless life of forgetting everything that ever mattered to her. Even Ramussen, who can’t sleep and can’t die.

    Oh, yes, and Three…

    … The Doctor quoted the Scottish Play last week. The previous week he claimed to be a king. The Scottish King quoting the Scottish Play? He’s doomed. 😈

    #47301
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @bluesqueakpip Great catch on the Scottish king/Scottish play thing! Never would have spotted that with a thousand rewatches!

    #47317
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    @bluesqueakpip  I’ve stayed away from the `Spoilers’ forum so I’m happily wandering around in the dark as well.

    Great stuff on the Scottish play/King! Your points make good sense and it seems to me too the trailer  for `Face the Raven’ really underlines that the reckoning that’s coming will be the Doctor’s.

    What’s brought that on? The Harry Potterish type street in the trailer also suggests we’re going to get a another big dose of story telling Face the Raven.' InThe Girl Who Died’ much was made of Ashildr’s story telling, but that was dropped in The Women Who Lived.' Perhaps it 'll be back. BeforeThe Woman Who Lived’ my bonkers theory was that, in some way and in time, Ashildr’s storytelling abilities would be amplified, likely in dangerous and destructive forms, and that the Doctor would pay for his `mistake’ in letting Ashildr live. That outcome seems in line with a major theme of the series of the Doctor departing and leaving behind a mess/serious problems. So I think I’ll recycle that bonkers theory and give in one more try!

    #47323
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Whereas I continue to argue Ashildr in The Woman Who Lived represents Justice:

    http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-cards/justice/

    The figure in Justice is seated between two pillars that go back in art to a representation of the two trees in the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life. Ashildr has eaten of the Tree of Life and now wants the Tree of Knowledge which the Doctor denies to her. The figure has a sword, Ashildr’s first desired weapon when she was shown practicing stabbing the Odin-Mire as a kid, and the figure wears red, the color of the dress Ashildr is shown wearing. And at the end of the episode Ashildr is judging the Doctor himself, reflecting the scales, and wishes to achieve some sort of justice for those whom the Doctor leaves behind.

    #47370
    pinkapeshead @pinkapeshead

    Was anyone else just watching Peter Capaldi on Graham Norton? Graham seemed to pretty strongly imply that Maisie Williams was taking over as companion.

     

    Intentionally talking nonsense to misdirect or letting slip secrets he shouldn’t? Would have thought the bbc wouldn’t let him broadcast any massive spoilers without approval

    #47372

    @pinkapeshead

    I’m fairly sure that everyone involved in the season has been merrily chucking out foilers.

    #47380
    CountScarlioni @countscarlioni

    Another trailer for Face the Raven from the official BBC site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p038hlq7

    @jphamlore   Yes, time to dust off the bonkers theories, polish them up and have them ready for inspection tomorrow evening! Also on the official BBC site is a piece on Ashildr/Lady Me. The dialogue between Lady Me and the Doctor that’s featured is:

    Me: …While you’re busy protecting this world, I’ll get busy protecting it from you.
    The Doctor: We’re not enemies now, are we?
    Me: Of course not. Enemies are never a problem. It’s your friends you have to watch out for. And, my friend, I shall be watching out for you.

    #47874
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Well, it now seems to be official:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06s609f

    So (he asks again), what will the Timelords be like? Grateful to the Doctor for being saved? Expecting the Doctor to be grateful to them because they gave him a new set of regenerations? Harbouring a secret agenda and in league with Missy? Barking mad as a result of the time war?

     

     

    #47875

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Hmm. I suspect (from a not quite recall comment by Missy in Apprentice or Familiar) that the Gallifrey returned to might be historic. We know (from Clara’s brief visit) that past-Gallifrey is reachable.

    #47877
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    The bonkerising I was about to put over on Raven, then realised relates to a bit we know about Heaven Sent:

    Hold on, I’ll try and format it in an easier way so it’s possible to understand, it does kinda get complicated.

    -Clara finds out how Missy survived, either tells CapDoc how, or he’s already worked it out
    -Me/Ashildr sends CapDoc away to castle using a teleport bracelet
    -That pod shown in the next time bit is in reality a teleport pod out of power
    -Like in the story CapDoc harnesses power meant to kill him to teleport, by putting sonic glasses in firing line
    -Teleported to Gallifrey pre-Day Of The Doctor
    -Missy/Master pre-Nethersphere also on Gallifrey
    -Hears about CapDoc’s escape, develops idea of teleport bracelet
    -Tells Clara how she survived

    3 different timestreams, 1 bootstrap paradox

    #47880
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
    #48063
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    And here’s the trailer for the final episode. Enjoy…

    #48067
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Well – it would seem that the tarot theory is firmly go!

    The Doctor was in a tower (the Tower card) in Heaven Sent and he ended up (in the preview trailer for next week) on Gallifrey (the World card) as predicted by said theory, undergoing a Time Lord judgement (Judgement card). Yay!

    All the portents @phaseshift mentioned over on The Guardian, such as Ashildr as the Nightmare Child, have also, as predicted, led us to Gallifrey. Double yay for bonkers theorising!

    I’m personally thrilled we’re back on Gallifrey – pompous Time Lord outfits and all.

    The confession dial and the time loop it implies is interesting.

    It was pretty heartbreaking that the Doctor really wanted to just die in that confession dial/ trap but, as Clara was the one who got him a new set of regenerations and as, clearly he holds the Time Lords responsible for her death, he had to go on, despite the desire to surrender, finally, in order to get to them.

    #48087
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @juniperfish

    I’d also suggest The Veil as a death figure. I think at the end of the series we should take time to reflect on the Tarot issue for series 8 and 9 because there are some interesting notions going on here.

    For instance, in series 8 we have the Doctor initially positioning himself as The Magician, before ending the series declaring himself ‘The idiot'(or fool). An inverted journey perhaps?

    #48089
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Well, that trailer looks all kinds of awesome. And kudos to @juniperfish for the Tarot theory. It really did stand up.

    I have to say I’ve found this series gob-smackingly good. Barely a foot wrong. Maybe not as much of a carefree romp as s5 (my other favourite) but a really substantial, clever and ambitious set of episodes. It truly baffles me to see the negativity over on the likes of the The Graun. It’s like ‘just what does it take to please some people?’

    Think Me/Ashildr being the Hybrid is spot on. But also think that the Hybrid is going to turn out to be not a bad thing… (bit like The Moment actually)….

    #48093
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phaseshift – yes, of course, we can see the Veil as Death – definitely be fun to look over both series together.

    I’ve also been pondering that the Veil may refer to the veil between this universe and the bubble universe whence the Doctor(s) shifted Gallifrey.

    Perhaps the Time Lords weren’t really after the identity of the hybrid in the confession dial. Perhaps the reason the glass wall didn’t keep resetting along with the rest of the puzzle, is because it was the lock between our universe and the bubble universe. Maybe the Time Lords figured out that only the doctor could break through, as the originator, but that he would never do it, unless they could get him angry enough – so they did.

    @jimthefish Yes, the tarot theory stacks up! It was a collaborative effort on here though, not mine alone – @kharis got it going.

    #48095

    @craig

    Oh, that has a significant difference from the one show after the credits. A significant omission.

    (Also was there a glimpse of a weeping angel in there?)

    #48097

    @jimthefish

     ‘just what does it take to please some people?’

    Fire that Verity Lambert woman to start with.

    #48102
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    A few things from the trailer of Hell Bent that particularly interested me:

    1) Weeping Angel – is there a connection to them and the Time Lords? Will we see their origins?

    2) young doctor in the barn from The Day of The Doctor / Listen – with someone that looks like his mother (possible connections to The End of Time?)

    3) car racing through the Navada desert – reminiscent of Day of The Moon

    4) an undisguised Tardis

    5) what looks like the interior of the war doctors Tardis / 1st doctors Tardis

    i have screenshots but useless at posting them!

     

    #48107
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    In reference to the Next Time Trailer at the end of the episode, Who should be the first person to turn up but Ashildr.

    @phaseshift I am 99% certain you are correct it’s “The Hybrid is Me” not “The hybrid is me”

    #48111
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    The “Next Time” trailer has now been posted too.

    #48114
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @pedant A weeping angel and a dalek.

    #48115
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @theatreguy If the screenshots are online then follow the instructions on the ‘Help’ page. If not, get them online!

    #48146
    ichabod @ichabod

    @juniperfish  Maybe the Time Lords figured out that only the doctor could break through, as the originator, but that he would never do it, unless they could get him angry enough – so they did.

    I think that’s it, or anyway part of it.

    Oh, there’s going to be a Hell of a bill presented, isn’t there.

    Love it that the Doctor’s idea of Hell is “Heaven for bad people”, but this is what it turns out to be for him — no people at all; just him.  And his internalized Clara, who by gum saves him again — by telling him what all who lose people and grieve for them have to learn eventually: everybody loses people, so get up off your ass and get cracking!  What a beautiful coda for her.  And look how neatly they managed to keep *that* secret!

    I’m glad he tells the boy at the end, “I know what they’ve done,” because that suggests that he’ll tell us next time, so I can understand it, because right now — Ah.  No.  Not really.

    And, hurray, the tarot structure works!  Love that.  Love everything.  Gotta calm down.

    Wine, I think.  Lots.

     

     

    #48147
    lisa @lisa

    OK so someone I follow on Tumbler said he though the Time lord in this other BBC trailer

     

    has the face of the Tennant Doctor?

    #48162
    geoffers @geoffers

    wow, wow, wow…

    both of those trailers clearly show clara with capdoc. now, whether it’s his “mind palace” version, or some real version? can’t wait to find out!!

    but in the clip where it’s annouced that there’s a regeneration in progress… my first thought was, “clara is being restored!” which could mean that the time lords “engineered” her to… help the doctor? betray the doctor?

    oi, oi, oi, oi!!!!

    #48163
    geoffers @geoffers

    @lisa

    if it’s the short shot i think you’re talking about, after the truck in the desert… the ear that’s visible looked more like eccleston’s to me! 🙂

    #48164
    nerys @nerys

    One of the shots from the first trailer shows a soldier who looks a lot like Danny. I don’t believe that it’s him, but it reminded me of his last heartbreaking Cyberman moments with Clara.

    #48174
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I still think the Time Lords did not per se mean to torture the Doctor.

    The confession dial is a mini-Tardis, bigger on the inside than the outside.  Look at its gears, an earlier version of Time Lord tech.

    I think the Veil is simply the confession dial’s self-defense system, keyed to the confession dial’s contents.  If a hacker beamed in, the hacker is tested, just like the Doctor was.  The more the hacker accurately reveals, the more is shown until finally the diamond wall in Room 12.

    #48181
    lewis97 @lewis97

    Can’t help but notice the illuminated blue cables, which have featured a few times throughout the series (The Witch’s Familiar, Sleep No More)…

    #48183
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift

    This is Puro -yes, 3 cheers! You were right

    Son says there are a lot of good reports on other fora -not the Graun.

    @juniperfish and Phase -yes, this idea of yours and @kharis, @whisht about the Tarot stretches back to S8 -I think the whole thing stretches back to then, personally. Everything has been about the stories after all

    I watched the trailer -ooh, about 4 times and I see a Weeping Angel, but not a Tardis. I see a few TLs and the soldiers. I do think the Doctor waited a very long time to get to Gallifrey -I don’t think it was a blink of time @jphamlore thought maybe it would be more comforting for it to be so?

    I think the Veil is simply the confession dial’s self-defense system, keyed to the confession dial’s contents.  If a hacker beamed in, the hacker is tested, just like the Doctor was…

    The following of yours is a beaut observation @juniperfish and smack on. I was trying to understand why the glass? Naturally, there would be no Tardis on the other side. Just Gallifrey with its gorgeous red sky:

    Perhaps the reason the glass wall didn’t keep resetting along with the rest of the puzzle, is because it was the lock between our universe and the bubble universe. Maybe the Time Lords figured out that only the doctor could break through, as the originator

    “It’s dictatorship for inadequates. To put it another way, it’s dictatorship” -favourite line. What will it be next week? 🙂

    Fascination. I’m gripped.

    Puro

     

     

    #48194
    janetteB @janetteb

    @lisa I don’t think it is Danny. Would be nice if it was. AT one time I theorised that there might be a Danny/Orson in every time zone where there was a claricle so that would mean there was a time lord version.

    I really hope that it is not the Doctor regenerating. I want at least one more series of Capdoc and I would hate a surprise regeneration. I need plenty of forewarning to get used to the idea. Capaldi did mention his contract for next year.

    Too tired after getting up absurdly early this morning to go “marching” for theorising tonight. Nice to see Gallifrey again. I hope we see a little more of Gallifreyan society. Looks like they have suffered from pretty severe global warming though.. Also noted the barn makes a reappearance. Seems likely we are to learn a little more about the Doctor’s past.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #48205
    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    From the Next Time segment, the line “she’s my friend” (or however it went) could be referring to Clara or to Missy. And since we can never predict Moffat’s moves, the regeneration could be that of Clara, Ashildr, Missy, or the Doctor.

    How is the Doctor a hybrid? Or if he didn’t mean “me”, but rather “Me” (which I suspect more), then how is adding an alien life-support chip to a human the creation of anything worth labeling “hybrid”?

    #48213
    Mudlark @mudlark

    The trailers raise an interesting point concerning Gallifrey. The General who appears here, played by Ken Bones, appeared also in Day of the Doctor, which indicates that nothing like two billion years has passed for him and his fellow Time Lords – it would be an impossibly long lifetime, even for them.  It could be accounted for if Gallifrey and its inhabitants had, as the Doctor(s) originally speculated, remained frozen in time in a pocket universe, but if they were truly in stasis, how could they have communicated with our universe to grant the Doctor a new set of regenerations, or to contact Me in order to arrange for his entrapment?

    Maybe, as I suggested in the discussion of Heaven Sent, they have not been in stasis, but time in their pocket universe has passed at a radically slower rate; or maybe, as in my preferred explanation, it is simply that the two billion years the Doctor experienced were entirely subjective within the pocket reality created by the Confession Disc, and that little or no time passed for either in our universe or that of the Time Lords on their side of the barrier.

    #48218
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    From that trailer it seems Capaldi directly said that he is the hybrid and will destroy a billion hearts to heal his own.  And his voice sounded different to me, so perhaps those who speculated the Valeyard were correct and that is who showed up, not the doctor.

    #48220
    lewis97 @lewis97

    @carrieanne – I don’t think that is Peter Capaldi talking, possibly just another time lord repeating the prophecy.

    #48221
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I argue that the confession dial may at this point in time be the only physical link between this universe and Gallifrey that can transport people.  So how is Ohila the leader of the Sisterhood of the Karn being shown in the trailer?

    I now think Ohila is being shown in a flashback, perhaps during the Time War where the Time Lords and Daleks were tearing apart the universe, or maybe even as far back as the Cloister Wars mentioned by Missy in The Sorceror’s Apprentice.  I conjecture she is telling the Time Lords that due to the Time Lord actions during one of these wars, the Sisterhood will no longer supply the Elixir of Life.

    The blue tubes in the promo images therefore refer to the Time Lords conducting war crime experiments on re-creating this Elixir of Life, more reason for the Doctor to punish them.  We have seen a theme this season of species living too long, not knowing how to die a good death, like the discarded Daleks in the sewers on Skaro.

    #48230

    @jphamlore

    The obvious explanation (as I speculated in the episode thread) is that Gallifrey is in the past (relative to the Doctor – who nose when relative to us!) and that we are at the start of the Time War (The Prequel of the Doctor, as it were).

    #48273

    BBC Extra about The Veil (maybe be slightly spoiler-y – hard to tell. Don’t think a key point about it is in-text yet)

    #48275
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @pedant: Yes, events may have been started for the Doctor before the Time Wars or even back to the Cloister Wars that Missy mentioned.  But there might not be enough time left in the season to show why the Doctor came to believe he was destined to conquer Gallifrey and stand in its ruins.  🙁 Something has to be left for Moffat’s next season …

    #48282
    janetteB @janetteb

    The veil is Clara, or the imaginary monster inspired by Clara. “Stolen from his nightmares, something that happened to him as a child”. He needs to know that it was Clara under the bed. I was wondering as soon as he referred to his nightmares if there was going to be some linking back to the hand under the bed. That would also explain why the Veil’s hands are emphasised and it is always reaching out to him. IT kills by touch. Of course it might have been that something that inspired his fear of the monster under the bed too. Maybe he watched a really frightening episode of Dr Who. (Ok, I’ll make that coffee now.)

    (after last night two cups are clearly inadequate.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #48300
    Kharis @kharis

    @juniperfish Wow!  Your tarot line up ended up exactly right from 0 all the way to 22.  My assumption is we are cycling through again.  Back to zero, back to the Fool.

    #48302
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @kharis – well we haven’t visited each major arcana card in order, have we – the Lovers is still to come. As this is the BBC approved spoilers thread, we know River is coming back for Christmas, so perhaps the Lovers have been saved for a hopeful last port of call.

    Perhaps the tarot card timey-wimeyness is an indication that, as many have suggested, there is something timey going on with the Doctor’s time-line this season.

    @lewis97 Ooh creepy picture – perhaps the Time-Lords are reviving Omega somehow.

    #48321
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    We have to keep in mind the part of the show left for moving events is less than 65 minutes long.  There’s only so much time for doing things on Gallifrey, especially with the other rumored scenes.

    How exactly is the Doctor going to punish the Time Lords for Clara’s death?  He most likely is not going to be shooting lighting bolts out his fingertips.

    No I think once again it will be the Doctor forcing some horrible truth to the surface and thus toppling the Gallifreyan social order, just like he used to do say during the Fourth Doctor serials.  (This is why I continue to object to the entire premise of The Zygon Inversion, because when it comes to the social order, the Doctor has always been about truth not lies.)  The most likely candidate I think is that cut off from the Sisterhood of Karn’s Elixir of Life, the Time Lords are now some sort of vampires.  They might even be feeding off the Gallifreyan lower class.  This ties into this season’s theme of the evil of unnaturally prolonging life and not having a means for a good death.

    The Doctor usually does not directly kill people, only monsters.  For people, he lets them make their own choices to kill themselves.

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