Dark Water

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  • #34424
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    dark-water

    Part One of the Finale and we begin to get some answers. You’ll be gripped by the end and wanting next Saturday to come already.

    In the mysterious world of the Nethersphere, plans have been drawn. Missy is about to come face to face with the Doctor, and an impossible choice is looming… ‘Death is not an end’ promises the sinister organisation known only as 3W – but, as the Doctor and Clara discover, they might wish it was.

    #34429

    Phew.

    No Marmite for me.

    #34430
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Yes!

    And kudos to Steven Moffat for telling a flat lie that was also the exact truth. 😈

    #34431
    ABXY @abxy

    What?! WHY? HOW? I’m flipping out right now! I need next week now!!!!!!!!!!

    #34432
    05bthompson @05bthompson

    @abxy Agreed I need to watch this now!

    #34433
    Spider @spider

    What? What WHAT! 😮

    Need. Next week. NOW!  😀

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34434
    Timeloop @timeloop

    What an episode.

    What a chilling thought to be left concious of your body when you are dead. Will give me a lot to think about for a loooooooong time. Really freaks me out.

    Kudos to the people who solved the Mistress/Master puzzle. *Hands out cookies*

    Though I’m slightly dissapointed there is no new villain or someone fresh from the past….. I think I voiced this opinion at the start of the season.

    I’m making a bet that Danny Pink will be saved. And again a misleading trailer – which is kinda unfair for people who wanna do guesswork.

     

    AND AGAIN, well done for getting the Master right!

    #34435
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Loved it!

    Brain exploded. Lot of dust around as well… *sniff*

    Dream inducer… just putting that out there now!

    #34436
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I think the young people have an expression.

    LOL.

    OK – Missy wasn’t the best choice – your actual anthopomorphic personification of Death, but I think this one is going to run and run. I’ve laughed so hard, with ribs aching that I really dare not go near some forums for fear of heart attacks bought on by laughter.

    Some people are really going to hate this.

    #34437
    BadWulf @badwulf

    I really enjoyed that – the emotional impact of the beginning, plus the fun with Missy telling fibs about who she was.

    The Steve Jobs gag made me chuckle!

    #34438
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @phaseshift

    Some people are really going to hate this.

    Is it really bad of me to find that roll-on-floor funny 😆

    I thought it was audacious, brimming with confidence and very emotional.

    And I’m glad it’s presumably not Gaiman’s instant-upgrade cybermen. Much as I loved them in lots of ways, it’s a bit of a writer’s dead-end.

    Possibly my fave line of the episode – pre-birth babies making phone calls to each other!! WTF???? Give SM the  Bonkersist Theorist Award NOW! We are out-bonkered by the master (small m, hehehe)

     

    #34439
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Omg omg omg lol now the proverbial cow muck has hit the the fan.

    #34440
    Anonymous @

    Yay! Granny Oswald 🙂

    I knew she’d be back. Ok, I didn’t know – I just wished really, really hard.

    Of course, given the theme of the episode, I’m now slightly worried that something bad will happen to her next week. Hope not though.

    Time for a re-watch.

    #34441
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Well, well, a long overdue Doctor/ Master snog… some corners of the fan fiction universe will be beside themselves with delight and others… not. Moffat is a ridiculous troll sometimes – he’s just waiting for all the forums to explode one way or another 🙂

    And @phaseshift I think you can congratulate yourself on the raised from the dead Halloween theme.

    Superlative acting by Capaldi as ever – “Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?” being my favourite line.

    This iteration of the Cybermen was definitely scary – let’s just hope Danny doesn’t press “delete”.

     

     

    #34442
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @timeloop

    Kudos to the people who solved the Mistress/Master puzzle. *Hands out cookies*

    Well, my ‘Danny is an abusive boyfriend/a fiendish plan to trap Clara’ theory looks like it’s up the creek, so it’s running 50/50 at the moment. 🙂 Mind you, I had a ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theory for Series 7b which turned out to be metaphorically true in S8, so you never know…

    But talking about Danny – we meet him in a Children’s Home, but the voice-over eulogy refers, again, to his family. So – who’s Orson? Are we going to find out in the finale that he already has a child?

    Incidentally, for a story based around a tragic accident and death – I have never laughed so much in my life. Really excellent; the blackest of black comedy.

    #34443
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Kudos to everyone who called it re the Master (adds a big bowl of jelly babies to @timeloop‘s cookies).  And also to Blenkinsopthebrave (not tagging cos of time diffs) – there’s a lot of nods to A Matter of Life and Death, re the appeal for Danny to get a new life… assuming it is Danny of course. Wonder if this is where Orson comes into it – if he is Danny and Clara’s descendant, could he be the leverage for getting Danny back?

    #34444
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    …but what a brilliant episode?

    Danny Dead, introduced to the sublime experiences of the promised land by Seb, who allows him to forget by pressing a DELETE button. Because, in the afterlife, you should always should be a choice of your own hell.

    Loved the entrance to Clara in this one – Jenna grim, determined, almost snarling at the Doctor to do his biz – and the Doctor’s reaction – “Do you really think I’d think so little of you?” I can’t wait the finale.

    The revelation that Missy is the Master? It’s inspired casting, says the man with an avatar of Roger Delgado. I’m sure, in his own afterlife, he’s laughing his head off himself. What a glorious creature.

    Also – it gives me a wonderful opportunity for cross-dressing in the future.

    What is not to love here? Apart from ME! Cross-dressing. Frankly, you’d be appalled.

    #34445
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @fatmaninabox

    given the theme of the episode,

    I actually did wonder if Granny Oswald was really there at all…

    #34446
    Anonymous @

    Overall – excellent. Seriously, I loved every single moment of it. But (there is always but 😀 ) beginning kinda confused me. Why was Clara phoning Danny and telling him to shut up and then next thing he is dead? P.S. Those post-it sticker notes in her apartment were hillarious 😀

     

    #34447
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    Re Orson – further to my post above, and what you were saying about Danny already having a family – if he doesn’t and Orson is his child, but not born yet, does that not create a paradox with the gunless soldier being given to the young Dr, as it came from Orson to Clara?

    @phaseshift We demand pics of you cross-dressing 😉 (And agree, she’s very much a Delgado Master)

    #34448
    Spider @spider

    I loved (most) of this episode. In particular the Doctor& Clara, with him not caring that she had betrayed him. That hit me right in the feels!  And poor Danny! Did not expect THAT at the start. Shocker! The Cybermen were no surprise, too many spoilers around for me not to have known that in advance. Still, the ‘reveal’ with the 2 doors was very good.

    Missy’s line about ‘Not knowing there was a match on’ to excuse the Doctors Scottish shouting in the middle of London had me in stitches. As someone else said earlier, for an episode that’s basically about Death I was laughing a hell of a lot!

    But what really spoilt it for me is I REALLY didn’t want Missy to be the Master 🙁 I have always hated the Time-Lords-can-be-a-different-gender  idea, for me it just doesn’t seem ‘right’ (I don’t know why exactly). I was hoping for a NEW villain. Oh well.

    So. At this point I’m quite disappointed. But I am not going to throw my toys out of the pram and declare that it’s all gone horribly wrong and I’ll never watch it again (which I’m sure some people will about this). It is what it is, SM has taken a bold new step and done it brilliantly. Michelle Gomez is SO good. I’m just going to have to get my head round this new Master and get used to it 🙂

    And, even just writing this down here, I’m already starting to change my mind. Now that I think about it, going with the death theme, I’m actually going through the 5 stages of grief (albeit rather accelerated):

    Denial: What? No…but…but they snogged and the Master and the Doctor!? REALLY! 😮

    Anger: “Well that’s totally ruined that episode for me and I’d been so looking forward to it all week! How dare they! I’ll NEVER be able to watch any previous Doctor/Master episodes!”

    Bargaining: “Well I hope they fix this in the next episode and she really isn’t the Master.”

    Depression: “Who am I kidding, there will be no fix. Meh. I’m going to go on the internet and see who else is outraged”

    Acceptance: “Y’now what…I’m still not sure but…this is actually quite cool

    Hmm..that was quicker than I expected XD.

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34449
    ABXY @abxy

    Okay, slightly alive again! Still baffled, still need a hug or something.

    When the ‘skeletons are cybermen’ thing I thought that that would be the drama cliffhanger and that it’d get a LOT more intense in part 2.

    I was wrong. So wrong.

    When the ‘two hearts’ thing happened, I expected it to be the Rani (though I know next to nothing about her, I know she’s been a popular theory).

    When she said ‘Mistress’ I briefly wondered, before putting the pieces together just as she said ‘Master’.

    I was instantly thrown into a state of shock, and have not come out of the terrified ball I threw myself into when my happy/scared tears began.

    Next episode, please!

    #34450
    ABXY @abxy

    Also, I adored all the dark humour in this episode, and that whole intro is not to be overlooked or dwarfed by this cliffhanger!!!!!

    #34451
    Mudlark @mudlark

    This was so richly layered that I would not dare attempt an analysis after only the first watch, and it will in any case be a while before I am fully coherent, so for now I will confine myself to the observation that it was utterly riveting, ranging from gut-wrenching to laugh-aloud funny and back again.  Even the reveal of Missy’s identity, though the most likely given the clues leading up to it, was so contrived as to have maximum impact; and in the lead up to it we were teased with some of the other possibilities, including the claim that she was a computer interface.  I particularly liked the double meaning (in hindsight) of Missy’s claim to the Doctor that it was the doctor who kept her going (I paraphrase, possibly inaccurately, because I will need to watch again to get the exact wording). And, as @scaryb noted, there were the references to A Matter of Life and Death, especially the bureaucratic processing of the newly dead, but with a decidedly sinister twist.

    Jenna, as Clara, was the best she has been so far; and Capaldi was simply amazing!

     

     

    #34452
    Serahni @serahni

    I absolutely loved it, it’s the first episode this season that has really given me a strong sense of nervousness that might almost be thought of as ‘the willies’.  Of course, the fact that it’s a two-parter is really helping the pacing issue that I’ve always found impeded some of the earlier episodes and there’s nothing like a good cliffhanger!  The performances are fantastic, the humour is pitched perfectly, and Granny Oswald!  She’s not quite Wilfred but it was still lovely to see her.

    The biggest problem I have, if the disclosure at the end is to be trusted, is that Missy ended up being my second least-favourite option.  (At least she’s not River.)  There’s still room for further development but I’m going to assume we know who Missy is now.  It’s not a deal-breaker, I still think she’s a well-performed villain and I look forward to seeing more of her, I just kind of wish…  I don’t know, for a different threat.

    Cybermen in the water.  I’ve seen the shots of Missy with Cybermen and I still didn’t put two-and-two together.  I cannot wait for next week’s finale!

    #34453
    lisa @lisa

    Ok so peeking here and how is it possible that Missy is Master????? Didn’t she/he get taken back to galifrey with Rasilon ???? How is it that she/he isn’t still stuck there ??? Maybe once I see the episode it will work
    out for me but right now I an not good with this !!

    #34454
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @scaryb

    Is it really bad of me to find that roll-on-floor funny 😆

    It’s pretty evil of us to laugh, but what the hell. We like it. And, in the grand tradition of the internetz, that is the important issue.

    @juniperfish

    Superlative acting by Capaldi as ever – “Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?” being my favourite line.

    Oh -you’re good. You’re spendid. You could control your merriment to record the actual dialogue around that point, rather than my own sad efforts. X

    A local fancy dress store has a Mary Poppins outfit available for someone of 6 and a half foot tall! This is even more hilarious. I can imagine a future Who convention when this will become a thing. As Strax said when resurrected in that DVD short – “Excitement. With dresses! Count me in!”. 😀

    #34456
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I just want to virtually shake the hand of every missy-master theorist. Bloody Moffatt double bluff really, it’ what he loves to do.

    My boyfriend said halfway through, there a=was a Sebastian or Seb was someone who knew and hated the eighth doctor, so I spent some time tonight thinking that Missy was a bluff, and it was Seb all along. Until the two hearts. (To paraphrase Ten: ‘A thousand Doctor Who Slash writers just punched the air’.)

    All I’m saying is, the Clara who made the phone call at the beginning is a future Clara, not the Clara we see dealing with her grief. A Clara who has post it notes, referring to previous episodes and themes- that intro, I think, vindicates this entire site.

    Not that we need it.

    We’re amazing.

    #34457
    Spider @spider

    @phaseshift I you haven’t already bought a Mary Poppins outfit I’m going to be disappointed 😉 In fact I bet you are wearing it right now! XD

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34458
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    The only downside, of course, is that the Cybermen reveal wasn’t a reveal so much. You can’t get away from it when you are filming exterior shots these days of course, but how awesome would it have been to approach that episode without knowing a thing about this episode. To have that X-ray water drain to reveal the cybermen?

    If you could have pulled that off – Earthshock territory.

    #34459
    Mudlark @mudlark

    Just one further thought, before I finish my glass of Sauvignon Blanc and call it a day:  for the classicists out there, this is set up to Orpheus and Eurydice (in reverse), but perhaps with a different outcome 😕

    #34460
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish

    Superlative acting by Capaldi as ever – “Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?” being my favourite line.

    If the Doctor is not Clara’s Dad or Grandad, he’s certainly acting like a parent.

    Whatever she does, he’ll still love her. She can lie to him, steal from him, betray him – and it will not make him love her one jot the less.

    #34461
    Spider @spider

    @phaseshift  Totally agree. I wish I could have watched that episode without knowing it WAS going to be Cybermen. It lost a lot of the impact. Although seeing the cybermen slowly being revealed over the skeletons was very, very creepy.

    Ah. Earthshock. Probably THE defining moment in my early years of watching Doctor Who!

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34462
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phaseshift I too am looking forward to the pics of the Mary Poppins outfit. Just think of all the fun you can have with wigs as well. And the Master/ Doctor snog photos, across all twelve incarnations, which will now pervade conventions.

    @spider I liked your journey to acceptance 🙂

    Looking forward to finding out how the Master escaped the bubble universe of Gallifrey and acquired her spiffy new body.

    I thought the cybermen spilling out of St. Pauls were quite thrillingly chilling.

    Definitely will be watching again.

    #34463
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip – agreed! He’s her grandfather or great grandfather and we will happily consign Eleven’s inappropriate remarks about her skirt to the time vortex!

    #34464
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Mudlark- I was literally just thinking that today- my mother gave me a copy of ‘Orphee’ by Cocteau, and it reminded me (only read the sleeve notes of the DVD though) about the whole journey to the world of the dead for the one you love trope…

    #34466
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @miapatrick  Yes! Cocteau’s ‘Orphee’; very appropriate.  And in that, if I remember rightly, isn’t Death represented by a woman?

    #34468
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    Yes- and (from the slevenotes again) there is an attraction between him and death. and death’s assistant and his wife… could be very interesting. going to watch it this week, I was going to wait till I got a decent DVD player, but I’ve got a laptop…

    #34470
    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster

    Tee hee hee.

    This reminded me of the old RTD finales. Reveal of an old monster/villain. London landmark. Cliffhanger. High-concept issue to do with humanity/lots of humans (eg ghosts of the (human) dead, or the human race of the future killing that of the present, or the human race being turned into Daleks). On reflection, mainly of Army of Ghosts/Doomsday actually.

    This is great.

    The Master is my favourite villain out of anything, so very happy to see more of him/her (how do we refer to her/him now?).

    Some Questions (some potentially-answered by others previously):

    What was going on with Clara/phonecall/post-its at the beginning? (@Miapatrick maybe answered this, but we’ll have to wait for next week to know for sure.)

    What are the chances the Doctor would stumble on this ‘heaven’ when it just so happens some of the people around him have died and gone there recently in his personal timeline? Ie in Victorian times, near modern day Coal Hill School, during a (future?) Dalek war – not always proximal to modern St-Paul’s. Or is the ‘mind-scoop’ very broad ranging, and this isn’t a coincidence, we’ve only been seeing it now cos its relevant?

    So who is Orson Pink descended from? Is Clara already pregnant?

    How did the Master escape the Pocket Universe? Or did s/he?

    This has all been happening on Earth. Did the Master choose Earth specifically to ‘annoy’ the Doctor? Probably.

    These aren’t weaknesses in the episode, but I feel the need to note them down because my enjoyment of the overall story will depend a little bit on some of them.

    What a spiffing episode. I say again: Tee hee.

    #34473
    Spider @spider

    Watching this again, the post it notes on Clara’s wall/shelf. Most are related to various adventures/episodes. One of them says ‘three months’. Perhaps. 3 months pregnant @jimbomcmaster?  🙂  Ohhh.

    (\(|;;/)/)

    #34474
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @spider

    Yes – I think it it’s sad that the crew couldn’t possibly get away with something like that these days. I still think that Earthshock managed to deliver genuine “holy crap” moments for its time. I can certainly remember discussing them at school the next day with the few people who I knew were still watching.

    @juniperfish

    While I’m sure you may encounter me in the future, I’m afraid you’ve lucked out. If I had known of this potential for sure, I think I would have organised a Doctor Who Forum Calander for Charity.

    Imagine, such adonii as @craig, @jimthefish, @fatmaninabox, and others such as the enigmatic @thekrynoidman strutting their stuff for charity in a dress. Personally, although I realise that the voting public would have marked me down to “Missy February”Shortest month for you dear, I like a dress. It’s airly – it can be much lighter than a suit and much more versatile. I think I could have found many forum members willing to become a Missy for a day for the relative comfort.

    Perhaps one for another year, eh lads?! 😉

    #34475
    thommck @thommck

    My 10y/o was very cross that the master, who he loves, had changed into a woman! However, about 15 mins later he was loving it!

    I thought it was a great part 1, although over far too quickly!

    I didn’t really understand why Clata destroying TARDIS keys was a threat, surely he can just click his fingers?

    #34476
    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster

    @thommck – Yeah, I just assumed he’d have another way in, or the Tardis would just let him in. She’s sentient after all. But surely Clara should have known about the clicky fingers thing, you’re right. In grief, I suppose.

    @Spider – that could well be the case. There’s got to be some explanation for Orson’s existence, and that makes most sense based on the info we’ve had. No hints that Danny’s had another serious girlfriend/wife that I remember, thus Orson’s probably not only his descendant by Clara’s too.

    #34477
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @miapatrick

    Different phone call…?  I didn’t pick up on that 🙁  Are you saying that because of the post-it notes? (Will need to rewatch)

    One thing that has slipped down our collective awareness – well mine at least, and it’s just occurred to me – Missy’s “Clara, my Clara…” hasn’t been explained yet. (Tho at least there was an explanation about the ipads, LOL). Is there a suggestion there that Danny’s death has been arranged, to get Clara to bring the Doctor to Heaven/Hell.

    I’m saying again – dream inducers!!

    @phaseshift… DWF Calendar – we ARE talking about cross-dressing avatars I hope…? 😈

    @spider – yes I  loved the “ranting Scotsman/no match…” line as well. (And seconding @juniperfish in a deep bow to your journey to acceptance. Masterf… er missyful 😉 )

    #34478
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Well, that was quite, quite splendid. Quite traditional finale territory in many ways, after a series that I think has taken some admirable risks and twists and turns. But lots of moments of real darkness here too. This is real assured stuff — SM writing at the height of his powers and I think with even more  elan than The Day of the Doctor. How anyone alleged fan can say he’s doing anything other than deeply enriching Who’s ongoing legacy is beyond me.

    Agree with others that a surprise Cyberman reveal would have been nice but it was just never on the cards if you’re going to have to do exterior filming in central London. But I’m not sure part two is going to confirm that the story is All About Cybermen. It could go in all kinds of directions, especially depending on where they go with Missy.

    Michelle Gomez was as excellent as I knew she would be. Like @phaseshift, I was chuckling out loud at the kiss — played brilliantly by both participants. And kudos to @bluesqueakpip and others for correctly guessing Missy’s true identity (and bang goes my Dark Clara theory). I really hope that we don’t see her disappear next week. I’d like to see her make a few more returns. I’ve said before, in this day and age you need a Master who is bat-shit crazy and one one does bat-shit crazy quite like Michelle Gomez. I think we’re almost certainly being primed for a female Doctor sooner rather than later though.

    But make it a bit later though. Because Capaldi is playing a blinder as the Doctor. A terrific nuanced performance, that goes in all kinds of unexpected directions. He was cracking here and really seems to be finding his stride, after quite a muted beginning. I really do get the feeling that we’ve yet to see the best of his Doctor, whereas I don’t think Matt ever re-attained the heights of his first series.

    And I find myself simultaneously alarmed and in agreement with @phaseshift‘s charity calendar proposition.

    #34479
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @thommck @jimbomcmaster

    The clicky fingers occurred to me too – especially since there was such a point made of it (in the Caretaker?) when they both do it. More than once.

    (Jimbo – recent discussion you initiated re when the Doctor will rewrite time/go back on his own timeline and impossible decisions seem to be bang on topic)

    #34480
    Anonymous @

    Was that Journey Blue who was reflected in Danny’s ipad screen at the end? If not, then who . . .?

    #34481
    fullofgravy @fullofgravy

    It’s a shame we were spoiled the Cyberman in the teaser, as the shapes of the 3W logo/signs would have been a fantastic breadcrumb (reminiscent of Cyberman eyesockets.)

    #34482
    Spider @spider

    @Margaret-Blaine I think it was the kid he killed when he was a soldier. Presumably (and hopefully) to help convince him to not press delete…

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34484
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    I also see how Gus’ monocle resembles the Cyberman eye when turned, so what does that have to do with everything?  Why did Missy seem disappointed when Earth was not destroyed by the coronal ejection last week?  Why was she so upset looking at the end of The Caretaker?  Did she set up the whole Skovox Blitzer problem?  Has she been trying to destroy Earth in the past, present, and future the whole series, only to have the Doctor unwittingly foil her at every turn?

    One big thing to note that may have implications for Mr. Pink.  We have seen Missy inside the Nethersphere and outside of it.  We don’t know where she was at the end of Flatline and In The Forest of the Night, but it is a pretty sure bet that she was inside the Nethersphere during all of out other encounters.  So she likely has the ability to jump between the two.

    I also wonder if Danny is dead or if the accident was staged to get the Doctor to 3W.  Missy didn’t seem surprised to see him.  Missy possibly could go in stasis or something of the sort when she goes into the Nethersphere – so Danny could be in a similar state.

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