Dark Water

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  • #34742
    Strax @strax

    @scaryb

    Awesome.  That was perfect.  Thank you for the laugh.   (Big bugs bunny fan here)

    #34743
    BadWulf @badwulf

    “Clara, my Clara”

    Everyone seems to be thinking that this means that Missy has chosen Clara for some sort of nefarious purpose – but what if it is the other way round – what if Missy is referring to when Clara came and tried to comfort her as a small boy, and gave him Dan the Soldier man?

    This could be strong evidence that the Master was the Boy In Bed In The Barn.

    #34744
    DrBen @drben

    @badwulf – My head asplode.

    Just as Clara’s hands in the TARDIS goo took them to Danny’s childhood (her soulmate?), the Doctor’s hands could have taken them to the childhood of the person he has known the longest and the closest (his soulmate? frenemy?).

    There are so many questions that I want answered this week:

    • Who wrote “LISTEN” on the chalkboard?
    • Who was the Woman in the Shop / who placed the newspaper ad in “Deep Breath”?
    • What is the Nethersphere really?
    • What is the deal with the sister reappearing in the hydrangeas?
    • Who is Orson Pink really?
    • What was Clara going to tell Danny at the beginning of “Dark Water”?
    • How did the Master escape Gallifrey and regenerate?
    • etc. etc. etc.

    I don’t think many (if any) of these questions will be answered this week, [potential spoiler removed].  I could be wrong, but I think we’re going to have to wait until the Christmas Episode and future seasons to get some of these answers.

    #34745
    ChelseaTenn43 @chelseatenn43

    I have to say that I was a little disappointed that ‘Missy’ turned out to be The Master even though I was pretty much expecting it. I was also slightly concerned as to whether I would like her over John Simm who has been a brilliant Master!!! But I have to say, she has been able to portray The Master very well so far and even though I will miss John Simm, I think she’s going to be great in next week’s episode.

    #34747
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    Got a bonkers theory of my own…what if it’s on pink isn’t who he says he is?

     

     

    What if orson pink is actually Rupert (danny) pink??

    It exactly sure how that would work but something that has been going round my head

     

    Another one is what if handles is danny pink??

    #34748
    DrBen @drben

    @tennantmarsters2013 — There’s a lot of speculation as to whether Rupert (Danny) and Orson are the same dude in the “Listen” thread.  Check it out!

    #34749
    JustJohn @justjohn

    Even though I like the episode, it was a disappointment to see the ressurection of The Master(or The Mistress in this case) yet again.

    Throughout the whole of this series, I had my money on a comeback of The Rani. Another renegade Time Lord who got lost in time with a fate which is unknown(according to the Tardis Data Core, see http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rani).

    I thought I uncovered some hints during the past episodes which suggest that The Rani was at work:

    1) the first episode of this season starts off with a dinosaur in the heart of London. According to the Tardis Data Core and other pages on the web, there is a clear link between The Rani and dinosaurs.

    2) “Deep Breath”, “Into The Dalek”, “Mummy on the orient express” and “Flatline” have as a strong underlying theme: scientific experiments. The Rani was known as an evil scientific genius conducting scientific experiments.

    3) A physical resemblance between Michelle Gomez and Kate O’Mara(who played The Rani). Granted, that same obvious physical resemblance might just have well been the very reason why it was The Master who got resurrected and not The Rani(as to avoid the obvious) but still…

    4) Missy talking about the Doctor as “my boyfriend”. On the wikipedia, I found a hint towards the possibility of a relationship between The Doctor and The Rani of some sorts but unfortunately, a reference-link was missing. Still, that rumour was out there.

    In this day and age of scientific multimedia revolution, the comeback of a female scientific evil genius would have been far better than the return of the “I want to rule the universe” madman.

    Ofc, none of my comments will stop me from watching the season’s finale!

     

     

    #34750
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @drben What is the deal with the sister reappearing in the hydrangeas?

    For some reason, the sister reappearing in the hydrangeas as a result of magical action by golden particles in the air reminded me of the nanogene cloud from The Doctor Dances. Perhaps the magical tree spirits are nanogenes “in the wild”, so to speak.

    #34751
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    woke up to those wonderful ARSE statements. Annoying: on the side bar a picture of a grinning Tennant; “the best Dr ever, says stats”

    @scaryb working on it. Had two people over this AM: nice and early checking on the 2 episodes for both hair AND jumpers which I didn’t take note of (sorry!) . But I will. Directly.

    #34752
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    @drben

     

    Thanks I’ll head over now

    #34753
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip — exactly right about being on the Tardis can effect pregnancy! Orson??? Time traveling
    grandparent?? there might be something there

    #34754
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @drben @pedant Lol 🙂

    This one is definitely my fave:

    “If the Doctor regenerated into a woman, would he change his name to The Nurse?

    No. Because a woman doctor is called ‘a doctor’.”

    I like the time loop theories. Just as I like the idea that Clara is already dead. We know something is going on “up-time-stream” already, given that the Doctor turned out to be the Architect in “Time Heist”.

    Huh – maybe Clara is the Doctor and Missy’s daughter 🙂 They’ve both called her “Clara, my Clara” if I’m not mistaken.

    #34755
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @juniperfish

    maybe Clara is the Doctor and Missy’s daughter :-) They’ve both called her “Clara, my Clara” if I’m not mistaken.

    If so, then wouldn’t she have two hearts? Surely somebody at the NHS would have picked that up by now.

    #34756
    Anonymous @

    Well…I have to admit to seriously over thinking who Missy was…after much deliberation, I came to the delusion that she was Idris, as in the doctors wife tardis, gone evil.

    Then the episode  aired and after watching it twice,  I was disgusted at myself for missing all the blatant Cyberclues that were awash through out the set….BUT….hell of a great story huh?….a sheer piece of inspired brilliance by the Mistress to download the brainwaves of the recently deceased into Cybermen shells….one can only hope that Danny Pink is part of Missys downfall, assuming she actually falls….her being victorious into the next season wouldnt be that bad either.

    Favourite support character…Chris Addison as Seb, I use to watch him on Mock the Week, he is truly a funn,  funny dude

     

    #34757
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion     Good to see you back out of the cupboard!   🙂

    @janetteb   Maybe the cybermen are only a threat, akin to Clara and the keys      I like this parallel, and it’s the kind of thing we’ve seen before (cup-a-soup).

    @bluesqueakpip    Love your summary of the different types of love shown in the episode.

    @otherstuff    I’m pretty sure that Eleven was still calling her “my impossible girl” in the Christmas episode. So she is probably aware of what she did, just doesn’t remember all of it.

    @flirtingdinosaur        The TARDIS is somehow connected to her keys of course. we’ve seen her being summend with one.    Excellent point!

    Re: Clara recognizing Missy; I don’t think the lack of an “a-ha” moment when she saw Missy means anything in this case. A random woman in a shop gave her a help desk number, a long time ago. She may not have taken much note of her face, at the time. Also, Missy would certainly have been dressed differently, and might have looked quite different in modern clothes and so on.

    @pedant   Wow. Just in case we needed a reminder that some people take this way too seriously… Also, somewhat lacking in logic.  “Any people who knew they could change sex at will would not choose a name like Susan for their child?”

    And by the way, if I see one more person saying, “Why couldn’t they just have made her be the Rani?”, I’ll… well… not sure what I’ll do. But seriously, if they had wanted to bring back the Rani, they would have written an entirely different story, and written all the Missy scenes over the whole series differently, because the Rani would have needed completely different motivations and behaviour. Yes, yes, I know personalities change after regen, but not fundamental motivations, surely?

    I wasn’t hoping for the Master, I’m not sure exactly where I stand on the whole “regeneration sex-change” issue. However, the character that Moffat wrote is clearly the Master in female form: convoluted plans, tendency toward the melodramatic, Doctor-obsession, and all.

    #34758
    seanradmore @seanradmore

    <span style=”color: #4c4c4c;”>lots of points not being mentioned i think,why did clara say to danny before he died that this was the last time he would hear her saying “i love you”.Also titles started on the “you are only human” bit from the doctor…clara not human??Surely we would not have the pregnant thing again after having that with amy also regarding the being killed by a car bit,thats been done twice before,rose in “turn left” and roses dad,when she saved him.if i remember rightly.or are these connections deliberate??</span>

    #34761

    @arbutus

    “Any people who knew they could change sex at will would not choose a name like Susan for their child?”

    Clearly somebody who is not familiars with the oeuvre of Johnny Cash.

    Oh, that would make such a delightful episode…

    @seanradmore

    I think the consensus is that that is a very significant question (or rather set of questions).

    Families need pregnancy and there is a rich seam to mine from Amy-Rory > River, River-Doctor > Unknown(1), Unknown-Unknown > Susan

     

    (1) River had the same “feeling sickness” that Amy did in Impossible Astronaut, but it was dismissed as a side-efect of the Silence. But later it turned out Amy was up the space-timey duff….

    Or, of course, it could be dealing with Susan that The Doctor and the Master fell out over, causing the Doctor to leg it ;).

    Start Your Bonkers theorising.

     

    Er…continue your etc.

    #34762
    Whovianami @whovianami

    Missy being the Master makes sense to me in a wobbly wobbley kind of way. If you go back to the last time we see the Master, (End of Time part 2) we never really see what happens to the Master. He shoots those light bolt things at Rassilon, the time lords go back into the time war, taking Gallifrey with them and then we refocus on the Doctor and Wilfred. So my theory is that the Master regenerated into Missy and wants revenge for being left to die. My question is this: Do you think Missy still hears the sound of drums, or did that disappear with the timelords?

    #34763
    Anonymous @

    Missy is the Master was a bit disappointing to me. The Master always ends up helping the Doctor once his own plans blow up in his face. So I am still hoping SM has another trick up his sleeve and Missy is the Valeyard. OTOH, Missy as Master could be the best since Delgado, so all good either way.

     What I REALLY want is CyberDino! Please! Please! Please! 😆

    #34764
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    Or, of course, it could be dealing with Susan that The Doctor and the Master fell out over, causing the Doctor to leg it ;).

    In my more bonkers moments, this is my favourite exit scenario for the Doctor. He had to leg it with Susan because the Gallifreyan courts had just awarded custody of the poor orphaned child to his insane ex-partner…

    I don’t get people saying ‘Why couldn’t Missy be the Rani?’ As I said a while back, my mind just boggles at the idea of the Rani ever describing the Doctor as her boyfriend. Whereas the Master always did have an air of ‘the ex-boyfriend who turned out to be a psychotic stalker.’

    🙂

    #34765
    geoffers @geoffers

    @thebrainofmoffatSomeone earlier got me to thinking about the hand in Day of the Doctor: when the Doctors emerge from the painting, Clara follows them out, but we first see a hand that, if I remember correctly, seems to be the hand of the opposite side. Who would reach across themselves to grab onto something like that? It always looked weird to me, because it looked like an awkward thing for Clara to do.

    that’s a brilliant theory, about missy following them all through, to escape from gallifrey! i remember thinking that hand looked weird, too, at the time…

    but… i just went back to investigate, and the hand on the picture frame is clara’s. as awkward as the angle is, it’s her right hand, and she’s pulling herself around the edge of the picture, as if she had been hiding just to the inside of it (to avoid the exploding dalek, i assume). if you go back to the scene where zygon-kate and clara are getting the vortex manipulator, when clara picks up zy-kate’s phone (with the activation code picture in it) with her right hand, you can see that the jacket, and the rings on the middle and pinky fingers, are exactly the same. (i even went back to earlier appearances of missy, and she is only wearing two rings throughout: one on either hand, on the middle fingers)…

    still, great bonkerizing! if half the stuff we come up with in here were true, the “casual,” non-fan watchers would be driven off in no time at all, due to the denseness and complexity!! 🙂

    #34766
    geoffers @geoffers

    another random thing i noted, upon a (fourth!) re-watch…

    i really wish the dream inducing patches and the 7 tardis keys ideas had been introduced in earlier episodes (like the teselecta was seeded early on, as a clue to the doctor’s death in ‘the impossible astronaut’), instead of being written into and explained in the same episode. i still love the episode, but it would have been much more fun to try to piece together the significance of those two things, had they been randomly introduced a few episodes ago…

    just a minor quibble… 😉

    #34768
    janetteB @janetteb

    Reading through the above posts I thought of my most bonkers theory ever, Orson is Susan. Even the names are similiar. (I just told my eldest. HE has now left the house. 🙂 ) Not sure how to fit Danny into that as I assume he does have only one heart or it would have raised some eyebrows when he did his army med test. Obviously I have suffered a deficiency of coffee this morning.

    Back to serious discussion…

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #34769
    Anonymous @

    @janetteb I love your theory- sounds great. Orson= Susan. Bonks!! @arbutus  yes, I couldn’t get out the cupboard. It wasn’t bigger on the inside, or self-ventilating. It just is….Now, the issue with The Master as The Mistress was what (rather poorly) I was attempting to express yesterday. That the Master is the Master -whether feminine or masculine, they exist with the same motivations, manipulations, sociopathic qualities and total indifference to humanity. In one way, then, their gender is redundant?

    I was amazed at pedant’s link  & the typical reactions viewers would be having. Even the newbies on this site were a tad ‘upset’ and  ‘weirded’ out by it all. Yet, it was one ‘normal’ theory that I had decided upon -after all, Missy =Master in female terms. But The Master was always obsessed with the Dr. I recall how when the Master ‘died’ the first time in the season with Martha, that he did so lying in Tennant’s arms and the Dr was tearing up -deeply emotional over being ‘the last one left’ but also just losing The Master was difficult enough, no matter how horrible -although that’s one for the discussion tables.

    #34770
    janetteB @janetteb

    I think the close friendship between Delgado and Pertwee permeated through into the scrips giving the Master and Doctor relationship that love/hate edge from the start. I see them as having been childhood friends. Since the reboot that frienship has gained a suggestion of sexuality. In some way Missy is the Rani because she was only an attempt at creating a female Master, recognising how the dynamic of female Master, (mistress) and Doctor would work. Unfortunately the Rani just didn’t work as a character but to be fair, at that time, nor did the Master. AS to the kiss, well Capaldi made his feelings known from the start about snogging companions in the Tardis. I just imagine Moffat rubbing his hands with glee and thinking, “I’ll get round that”. I guess that Missy is now the “anti-companion.”

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #34771
    Anonymous @

    I’ve wondered a few things recently. One is that apart from the school scene in Caretaker and the beginning where she’s introduced to Danny, Clara lives her live with Dan when only the two of them are connected -from her point of view. I thought perhaps, in the light of Dan’s ‘upload’ to 3W that the Dr is able to ‘feed’ her life with ‘impressions’ of time they spent together -which we never really see but she thinks happens.

    Alternatively, Clara, dead, or ‘uploaded’ some way is able to live her ‘life’ thru stories the Doctor has embedded. Stories and adventures the pudding brains (or his Clara with her ‘melted’ wide face or her inflated eyes) would likely love: “well, you’d believe the moon was a giant dragon if someone told you, wouldn’t you, pudding brains” or “if I said Robin Hood existed you’d believe me without  question wouldn’t you? You’d be aching for tights, banter and a sword fight in no time!’ Naturally, it can’t be the latter -a dream state is too easy in these instances.

    However, the PE teacher issue needs to be solved I think!

    *********

    @scaryb so, in Dark Water before the credits  –and after- the Dr has short hair and a suit

    in Forests  he has long hair & a sparkly jumper

    At the beginning of Flatline he has long hair and suit; and we’ve determined the hair stays long but is just mashed up later.

    In The Mummy, there’s  a long hair and a suit.

    Kill the Moon  short hair and spotty shirt

    Caretaker short hair and suit but with black shirt. Later, though he has long hair with his caretaker jacket.

    Incomplete. Kindest, puro

     

    #34772
    Anonymous @

    interesting, in the first episode, Strax, when completing Clara’s ‘medical’ says: “you’re 27 with an expected life expectancy of…” which she stops but then Strax continues “you’ll do quite well”.

    Then he expects her to be in “peak phsycial prowess -if we are to serve with each other”. Interesting that the Dr basically says the same to Clara (who is grief stricken): “shoulders back, chin up…let’s see what we’re made of…show me some attitude”.

    #34773
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    As if there isn’t enough to ponder and construct bonkers theories about – how, and why, did @purofilion get trapped in the cupboard?  I doubt Moffat will shed any light at all on that one…

    #34774
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb and @geoffers and any @others

    I agree Clara definitely seems to be pregnant. And I have a couple Bonkers theories about how this is going to play out.

    First, what is Clara’s plan for saving Danny?

    That seems impossible to me, since I think the Danny we see now is just his consciousness and his real body is getting cremated, so it should be impossible to bring him back? Unless they can clone a new body for him, and that could explain Orson (the Clone Danny?).

    But instead, I still think Orson is a descendant of Danny and Clara, so that’s where things get bonkers. 🙂

    What if Clara decides to stay in the TL matrix (Promised Land) with Danny because she realizes she can’t bring him back?

    In that case she would give birth inside the TL matrix?

    I don’t think people age inside the TL matrix. So maybe Clara gives birth there and Danny and Clara raise Orson for 70 years or so, then the Doctor takes the baby into the real world with him. The Doctor could leave the baby Orson with a family. Then Orson grows up to about 30 yrs old and tries to time travel to save Clara or just be with his real family again.

    (The reason for the 70 + 30 = 100 years is because 12 said Orson was 100 yrs in Clara’s future.)

     Another theory is that Clara’s baby will just appear in the real world – blown in on a leaf? 😉

    If that happens then that leads to another bonkers theory, based on @Purofilion’s latest idea about Clara.

    The Doctor and Missy might have a baby inside the TL matrix too! That could explain Clara blowing in on a leaf!

    #34775
    geoffers @geoffers

    @barnable – i can make most of that pregnancy theory work… BUT…

    i think you’ve reached the pinnacle of bonkersising, if you really think the doctor and missy are going to have a child!!! think of what you’re saying, man! half the who fanbase lost their minds when missy was revealed to be the master regenerated… do you think moffat would want to kill those poor souls, now… and the rest who remain?!!! LOL

    he would shack up with that dinosaur before he’d get all intimate with his oldest, dearest enemy…

    😉

    #34776
    Anonymous @

    @cathannabel  the tradesman said ‘pop in that cupboard love as I need to look at fuse box and the door is in the way’

    Door is self-locking. He wandered off (“how many times have I said don’t wander off?”) and I was left to wait, then get anxious and then call out.

    @barnable nice avatar. Welcome back . Yes, my boy just listened to me read out your theory. He said ‘wow, that’s impressive’. Other than the latest soccer results and the newest PS Game, he’s hardly impressed. I like it a lot too

    #34777
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers – Like you said in your post, I think it would have been better if they didn’t explain the opening scene so quickly.  I would have been waiting on the edge of my seat the whole episode for evil Clara to show up again.   Evil Clara is my favorite part of the episode, I was completely buying it.  I really thought the Doctor was screwed when she threw the keys away. 😆

    Like you said I’m not complaining, but I would have liked for that part to last longer (until a reveal at the end of the episode or the next one).

    #34778
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb  in Into the Dalek

    short hair and new suit

    Robots of Sherwood

    short hair and suit with dark shirt (opposite to pink shirt apropos of nought).

    Listen

    short hair and sparkly jumper and yet under water had slightly longer hair!

    Deep Breath (in between). Therefore no pattern that I can see beyond having a noticeable trim. My co-watchers thought that there was hardly any difference so perhaps an exercise in futility? We could have read the hair length wrong or else the Panasonic isn’t as good as we thought! Kindest, puro.

    #34779
    SonicBilby @sonicbilby

    I’ve been rethinking this and here are my potentially bonkers predictions….

    Lots of the impossible girl Clara fragments’ memories are in the Matrix Fragment, which is why the Mistress keeps calling the current Clara ‘my Clara’

    The dead Claras will join forces with Danny and the unconverted personalities in the Matrix to lead a Cyber rebellion.

    Danny will become the Doctor’s next companions… Handles 2 AKA Danny the Good Cyberman

    Clara is pregnant and Orson is her great-great-grandson. Or Orson is a human looking Cyberman decended from Matrix Danny

    #34780
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @purofilion – I can picture it all too easily…  very funny if you’re not the one on the inside of the self-locking door!

    #34781
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Hmmm… Orson is Danny. The Doctor saves him – but at the cost of having to move him to another time; he’s not just officially dead in the 21st Century, he’s officially cremated.

    That’s why they had Samuel Anderson age up.

    Clara may or may not be with him; if she is, she’s the ‘family’ he is so anxious to get back to. But he gives her Dan the Soldier Man because he knows he has to; she told him he did. If she isn’t with him (either because she’s dead or he betrayed her) , that’s why he looks at her with such sadness.

    The shocked silence when she tells him she loves him and the previous insistence that she think before making any commitment could still imply that the relationship with Clara was set up. Just that Danny’s decent enough to not want Clara to think he’s the one-and-only.

    #34782
    Apopheniac @apopheniac

    I said back on the Kill The Moon thread that I thought Clara was pregnant.  And I only had a few replies, all of which were derogatory.  Now I come back today, and loads of people are thinking Clara is pregnant.

    “Three months” (like on the post-its) is invocative of pregnancy, when its safe to tell about it.  But Clara didnt tell Danny she was pregnant at the start of this ep.  She said “these words of mine are yours now”.  (I love you)  Why did she “give” him those words, when she explicitly told him, repeatedly, not to say those words to her, later?  Im firmly in the camp of Clara Could Be Pregnant, but Im also still in the camp of @miapatrick s theory of a time-shifted Clara at the beginning of this ep.  “Three months” could be the timeslip between her running (inexplicably) into his car-crash, and her turning around to see nothing.  I still think the opening of this ep is key to the denouement (and that the Cybermen are a distraction from whats really going on, other than as a hook to hang the deletion of sad memories on).

    @purofilion – really good detective work on costuming for The Doctor.  But is it as much of a sideswipe as the colours of The Doctors bow ties in 11s reign?

    @janetteb – “I guess that Missy is now the “anti-companion.” ”  Oh, that is goooood.

    Why are people still lamenting that Missy didnt turn out to be The Rani?  Its over, unless you have fanfic to publish.

    @spider – “Danny is Adric!”  The maths connection is good, but please please please dont advocate for the return of Adric.  Pretty please.  🙂

    Enough carping from me.  My theory is that Danny and everyone else in The Nethersphere is not really dead.  For all the reasons people have posted about the overwhelming creepiness of telling children that cremation, and scientific experiments on dead bodies, cause pain to the person who died.

    Clara has juggled her “real life” and “Tardis life” enough.  Its over.  She chooses real life.  This is the point that a companion leaves The Doctor.  My vote is for a Sara Jane style of leaving, where The Doctor dumps her (several hundred miles from home, ha ha) because he knows he cant keep taking her away from home.  Oh and he also “got the call from Gallifrey” which means he must let her go.  Theres nothing like a “call from Gallifrey” like having The Master re-appear in his life.  (And Sarah Jane says “my Doctor” in this bit, which is a clear connection to “Clara, my Clara”).

    #34784
    Charlie Cook @charlie-cook

    If we return to an old theory about people being transmitted away by Missie before they die, then Danny ought to be safe unless he presses that button – he’s not dead…

    #34787
    Brewski @brewski

    @janetteb You are correct. The Doctor states explicitly in The Sea Devils that he and the Master were very close friends once.

    #34788
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @geoffers

    he would shack up with that dinosaur before he’d get all intimate with his oldest, dearest enemy…

    Yes, but would he have a choice? 😈

    However, since this is a family show, I think That Kiss will be the furthest we go in that direction… 😉

    #34791
    DrBen @drben

    I’m still against a Clara pregnancy and will be disappointed if that is the case.  It would suggest (after Amy) that Moff believes that women are just baby-making machines.

    I’m sticking to my “three months to live” theory (dark though it is).

    #34794
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @drben

    I’m also agin it. There was such a big thing made about the effect of time travel on unborn children. You could argue that it was just conception that was a problem (without using the word ‘conception’, of course). Three months? Three months since we met, three months since we slept together, three months on the TARDIS, three months (as you say) to live. Lots of possibilities besides ‘three months pregnant’.

    Moffat obviously doesn’t think women are just baby making machines because he made one of his nastiest ever villains the person who treated Amy as – a baby making machine. I also can’t help thinking that it would be a bit tricky for a guy who’s spent much of his working life working for his wife and mother-in-law to hold that opinion and survive. 😈

    The Doctor scans Clara before saying she’s a mass of chemicals. Since the TARDIS was demonstrably able to detect a pregnancy in the person controlling a non-pregnant ganger, I think he’d have noticed if Clara was pregnant. I also think that Clara’s sheer despair strikes a slightly odd note if she’s pregnant by Danny. Panic-stricken, yes, easily. Grief-stricken at the thought that he’s not going to see his child. But suicidal without-him-I-don’t-care-if-I-live-or-not? It’s not impossible, but it’d be an odd reaction.

    The other thing that strikes me is that – if Clara’s suicidal despair is natural – that means Moffat’s repeated Amy’s ‘I can’t live without Rory’. Which makes me wonder if it’s part of Missy’s attack on the Doctor. The Doctor scans her when she says she loves Danny, he says ‘yes, you’re certainly the mess of chemicals,’ then says that they’ll ‘Go to Hell.’

    Why to Hell? What does he know? Why is he so certain that, wherever Danny is, it’ll be a Hell? Was it something he just found out in that scan?

    @miapatrick, I can’t see that the phone call is from a future Clara. She’s too bewildered by the silence; she’s waiting for him to speak again. Yet, if this was Clara from the future, she’d know that this would be the last call. It would be in the accident report that he was talking on the phone.

    The time jump is from the phone call to her standing in the road with the cars going round her; her clothes change to show that time has passed, and there’s now a roadside memorial to Danny.

    #34795
    DrBen @drben

    @bluesqueakpip – Something else just occurred to me.  As DW is still ostensibly a family show, there’s no way that Moff could get away with suggesting that Danny and Clara engaged in pre-marital sex.  After all, Amy got pregnant on her wedding night.

    I don’t think there’s any particular significance about “Hell” – I think the whole point was to make the “go to Hell” joke.

    I also agree with your take on Clara’s phone call.  I think it was a day or two after “In The Forest of the Night”, and she’s planning to tell Danny “The Truth” (whatever that is).  As you say, the clothes change signifies the passage of time.

    #34797
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @bluesqueakpip The time jump is from the phone call to her standing in the road with the cars going round her; her clothes change to show that time has passed, and there’s now a roadside memorial to Danny.

    Hmm – this has made me realise something…

    If there has been enough time for a memorial to be built, why is Danny only just now being inducted into the nethersphere?

    Did the TARDIS take them back in time to just after Danny was knocked over? I thought their instruction to the TARDIS was to take them to where Danny is now?

    In that case, what has been happening to Danny in the intervening period?

    #34798
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @drben Something else just occurred to me.  As DW is still ostensibly a family show, there’s no way that Moff could get away with suggesting that Danny and Clara engaged in pre-marital sex.

    Why not?

    #34799
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @drben – they’ve had an unmarried couple with baby before in Closing Time. I don’t recall a fuss. So long as they imply that Clara and Danny are committed to each other, there isn’t a real problem.

    The main problem Moffat has is that he can’t mention ‘sex’, ‘sleeping together’ or even ‘conception’. ‘Wedding night’ is, however, allowable. 😀

    The ‘close personal relationship’ mentioned in the Headmaster’s voice-over does strongly imply (to adults) that Danny and Clara are sleeping together. It’s not that it’s not possible for Clara to be three months pregnant, family show or not, it’s just that I don’t really think it fits.

    #34800
    DrBen @drben

    @bluesqueakpip @badwulf – Oh, were Craig and Sophie unmarried?  Never mind then.

    #34801
    Brewski @brewski

    The scene with Clara standing in the middle of the road with traffic (apparently unconcerned with her being there) struck me as odd at the time.  And more so in hindsight.

    Maybe this is a future Clara.  Or a projection of Clara,  but standing at a time BEFORE the accident. Preparing to prevent it,  ala Rose with Nine.

    #34802
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Just wanted to log in and thank @craig for that latest avatar. Epic, my friend. Also to @juniperfish – a true collaborative effort from both cross-dressing genders would be welcome. I’m sure you would make a fine Doctor 4. This is what we want! Many thanks to all those who responded, either yay, or nay. I’m sure a meet-up or two may convince some of the naysayers. We’ll use alcohol – truly nature’s lubricant in these matters. 😀

    #34803
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I think @bluesqueakpip and @janetteb called my interpretations of the Master/Doctor relationship. It’s long standing and goes back to being those children, shortly after the events of Listen. Look at the Pertwee/Delgado relationship and it is children, still fighting the same old arguments perhaps.

    I think it would never be enough for the Master to simply kill the Doctor. What would be the point? He wants to know he’s right – his vision of order for the Universe (and I think the Master is the pinnacle of the Gallifreyan natural tendency to arrogance and contempt for other species) automatically assumes that yes, he should be the Master, of all he surveys. He wants to hear the Doctor say it and, more importantly, mean it. I think RTDs interpretation of it as a dom-sub relationship (in Last of the Timelords) was about right.

    The Master: Doctor.
    The Doctor: Master.
    The Master: I like it when you use my name.

    Because the Master wants to rub the Doctors nose in defeat – to make him feel it. Death wouldn’t allow that, and so the stupid plans, inadvisable alliances with suspect aliens, and inevitable downfall come about. It’s a classic.

    All this gives rise to one thought – Master goes back to Gallifrey just before its end battling Rassilon, survives and sets about trying to escape. A crack in the Universe appears, and while he goes about his natural escapology routine, he hears a voice, asking if “he/she” loves the Doctor.

    While The Master (for ease of gender useage) wants a sickbag delivered immediately, a sudden realisation occurs – with death comes surrender to the old challenge, and that just will not do. So the Master arranges a new set of lives for the Doctor before making an escape to torment the Doctor again. The crushing despair when the Doctor realises he owes his very existence to his worst enemy!

    Now that, my friends, is cruelty. It also fits. The entire additional set of regenerations came from The Five Doctors (an offer to the Master from the Time Lords – to save the Doctor). His response?

    A cosmos without The Doctor scarcely bears thinking about!

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