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  • #33688
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    flatline

    Supposedly Jamie Mathieson pitched this to Moffat with a drawing, which he’s promised to share on Twitter shortly after broadcast (@Jamti). It was his first script for Who, before he was commissioned to write Mummy on the Orient Express.

    Once again it’s directed by Douglas Mackinnon who is well suited to realising yet another creepy entry in this year’s run.

    And now we know what Jenna was really doing while she was supposedly locked up last week.

    Separated from the Doctor whilst seemingly wearing one of Amy’s shirts, Clara discovers a new menace from another dimension.

    How do you hide when even the walls are no protection? With people to save and the Doctor trapped, Clara goes against an enemy that exists beyond human perception.

    #33726

    Well, I think that kills the Missy might be good theory…

    #33727
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    “Congratulations lying is a vital survival skill… and a terrible habit”. The Doctor sounds very grand-fatherly, don’t you think?

    Clara as a “leader” in training, who calls herself “Doctor” and wields the sonic – rather grand-daughterly, no?

    This wasn’t one of my favourite episodes of the season, although the concept of two dimensional beings invading as three dimensional zombies was fun.  But more than worth it for the rather chilling exchange between the Doctor and Clara at the end. Of course he’s not pleased she did well as the Doctor – he doesn’t like himself:

    “You were an exceptional Doctor Clara, goodness had nothing to do with it”,

    As for Missy’s, “My Clara”, what do we make of that? Missy definitely seems rogue Time-Lordish. I do like the prior theory that she is the Master in a female incarnation.

     

    #33728
    Anonymous @

    What did Missy say exactly? I heard “my Clara, I choose, something, something….” Sorry, I’m not a native speaker 😀

    #33729
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    “I chose you well.” But what for?

    #33730
    ReboStar @rebostar

    Did anyone else catch the UFO behind the Doctor just after the guy was doing up his lace outside the Tardis?.

    Look in the sky behind and to the right of the Doctor and you will see a high speed orb come in from the right.

    #33731
    lisa @lisa

    haven’t seen the episode yet but wondering if Missy said she chose Clara does that then mean she might be the lady in the shop ??

    #33732
    Mudlark @mudlark

    Well, I loved that: seriously sinister and creepy monsters, sense of threat, pace, energy, and some rather dark implications for Clara and her future well being.  And the sceptical and obstructive jobsworth was a nice touch.

    The Doctor channelling Mae West  – ‘Goodness had nothing to do with it’, but clearly he didn’t mean what she meant.

    No doubt, though, there will be many complaining that there was too much Clara and not enough Doctor, and completely missing the point.  I hardly dare visit The Guardian and Dan Martin’s blog.

    #33733
    Strax @strax

    This episode was written well, but god almighty.  I want more Doctor and less Clara.  I’ve had it with that little boy.

    #33734
    Strax @strax

    @mudlark She is really grinding on me.  Can someone blow her into the next universe and bury her with the Daleks.  Or, maybe kindly hand her a jacket and escort her to her next engagement.   (don’t get out of whack, a little Strax talk there.)

    #33735
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    I loved Clara in this one. Specially at the moment she stopped asking herself what the Doctor would do and instead asked what she would do.

     

    Missy is really just there to tease us. I’m guessing we’ll have to wait for the big revelation in the last one.

     

    The tini tiny TARDIS was pure awesome, even if the physics (as on the turning the whole thing with the hand from the inside) didn’t quite go by the rules.

     

    More thoughts after some tea and maybe round two?!

    #33736
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    You know – since Steve Moffat took over Doctor Who this is only the second officially Doctor lite episode they’ve done?

    I think that this facr could be lost is down to both the script and the performances by Jenna and Peter. A confection that knocked thoughts of what was arbitrarily a similar story to the horrid Fear Her into a cocked hat. The aim of the lost – their intentions and aim were avoided. We may pick them up later – but they remain the lost.

    So many interactions worthy of mention – Lovely to see Chris Fairbank as the officer class of his “troops” – “they we’re human scum, etc”. A lesson that we (and the Doctor) cannot select who lives and dies.

    I agree with @juniperfish though. Those lines :

    “..thank goodness – wasn’t I a great Doctor though?”
    “You were an exceptional Doctor Clara. Goodness had nothing to do with it”

    Was THE killer line, and something to savour with Capaldi’s delivery.

    Well done Jamie Mathieson – a cheap one and an expensive one. Can we have him back?

    Again –lots to savour on the rewatch. 😉 I’d agree that for the more serious watcher, this may have become mandatory. For the BBCs digital strategy, that’s probably good news.

    #33737
    ReboStar @rebostar

    This season as a whole has put some distance between the viewers and the Doctor.

    First he hasn’t found his personality or at least I haven’t seen it yet?. Maybe this is due to the other characters stories hogging the lime light?.

    #33738
    Strax @strax

    @rebostar  Bingo!  Capaldi can hold the show, let him.  Even the camera angles put him off to the side much more often than in the past.

    #33739
    Oblique @oblique

    It’s wonderful now that we live in the age computer generated graphics because so much more is possible and effects make easy television.

    This story walked through on stilts when it could have been so much more. It feels like a tick-box episode… a finger buffet.

    Finally, due to popular demand a female Doctor! Hopefully the closest we’ll ever get to on.

    The sonic screwdriver saves the day…. just for old time’s sake. (Easy) And they used to complain about K9!

    Also…humour, humour works better when used moderately. With Who, there’s often a failing to misjudge when light relief is needed. Less would be more because the tension the writers think they are building in their scripts doesn’t always pay off. 47minutes is to short a time for this kind of roller-coasting.

    This could have been dark and edgy and claustrophobic, but it wasn’t.

    Lastly: too much acting going on.

     

    Oblique x

     

    #33740
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Lots to process, not least that so much of our recent discussions in here have bubbled up to the surface.

    Clara’s lying is definitely a “thing”. And not a good thing. And it’s different from the Doctor’s thing when he lies!

    You were an exceptional Doctor Clara, goodness had nothing to do with it

    That line gave me chills! Anyone else think of Rusty’s comment to the Doctor in Into the Dalek – “You would make a very good dalek”? The compliment with a very sharp double edge. (as well as channeling Mae west as @mudlark pointed out)

    The Doctor’s role as “hero” (@jimboMcMaster, @bluesqueakpip ) and whether it’s enough to make a choice for the good of the many at the expense of the few – he is the one who repeatedly points out to Clara that a lot of people have died, with the implication that that result is just not good enough.

    Were the Boneless(?) draining power from the TARDIS? Were they accessing it through the Clara/Doctor “phone” link? The first victim we saw, and the policewoman were both on the phone when the attacks started.

    (Oh, and yes I liked it a lot! Listen and Mummy are still my faves from this series tho)

    #33741
    ScaryB @scaryb

    And very interesting speech from the Doctor to the “monsters” at the end. Clearly parallels Smithy’s to the Atraxi in Eleventh Hour, and in the Pandorica.

    #33742
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    There’s a load of stuff in this episode that we’ve been discussing. The ethics of ‘no good choices’ and ‘yeah, but we saved the world’.

    Clara’s lies do indeed make Danny sound like a controlling and potentially abusive boyfriend. Is that an accident? She’s lying, after all. Or are her lies coming up with something that she’s noticed?

    Welcome back to my bonkers theory that Clara is the Doctor! How I’ve missed you! 😉 Okay, it turns out that ‘Clara is the Doctor’ in a somewhat more metaphorical sort of way, but still…

    I agree that there seems to be a common link of ‘on the phone’.

    A lot of people do seem to be missing the significance of the ‘Sonic Screwdriver Moment’, which is pretty clearly the ‘becoming the Doctor’ moment. After nine episodes, this incarnation of the Doctor has finally grown back into his role of ‘The Doctor’. It IS a role, but one that he’s recognising he has to play.

    It. Is. Defended! (Tennant Doctor)
    Hello, I’m the Doctor. Basically, run. (Smith Doctor)
    This plane is protected. I. Am. The Doctor! (Capaldi Doctor)

    So Clara passes the baton; from Smith to Capaldi. He takes the Sonic, and he defeats the monsters.

    #33743
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @scaryb   Oddly enough, that speech to the monsters at the end –  the equivalent of the  ‘I’m the Doctor.  Basically, run’ line of his preceding  incarnations – was one the bit that jarred for me. It seems to me that, although this Doctor is every bit as, if not more arrogant than Tennant or Smith’s Doctors, his arrogance is much more contained – and in consequence more forbidding, and this was a bit out of (his new) character.  But his final exchange with Clara spoke volumes about the way he regards himself, and it bodes nothing good for Clara.  Chilling, indeed!

    #33745
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @scaryb Yes he did call them “the boneless” – I think that was another sonic/ little Doctor joke given that he was pointing it at them at the time.

    Graffiti saved the day. And didn’t the shut-down version of the TARDIS look like a miniature Pandorica? 🙂

    I liked the shot of the Doctor’s hand scuttling the TARDIS across the railway tracks like a hermit crab.

    So has Missy planted Clara on the TARDIS to (unwittingly) nudge the Doctor further into a blue funk of self-hatred with her wide-eyed emulation? Missy really is rather reminiscent of Madame Kovarian.

    I think it’s time for another Jenny and Vastra episode.

    #33748
    Anonymous @

    @strax @rebostar  boy I don’t like it when people come to vent -and perhaps not only joining at the same moment but being the same person: “bingo”: I should let it pass but I find it difficult. I think that Capaldi in this series has occasionally been ‘off to the side’ and there’s nothing wrong with that. The actor and this incarnation could sit on top of the Tardis so we hear only his tone of voice and it would still be the ‘Capaldi Hour’. He’s so jolly good. As for Clara, we’ve had these discussions before. I think reactions are mixed but chucking out to the other side of wherever…come on!

    Regrettably, last year she wasn’t fleshed out as a character in my opinion. This year, her acting is superlative.  Formidable in fact and I was pleasantly surprised. Also it’s one up for women that a companion can ‘do’ on her own

    Phew, hospital for a week or more aint good for either digestion or commentary. Up half the night so watched the ABC’s viewing strategy of showing it when it’s Broadcast in the UK! Yay!

    I will need a second watch, although I loved the previous episode & a re-watch for the sake of ‘understanding’ certain sections wasn’t absolutely necessary. This episode with its ‘chilling’ moments-as others have mentioned above-  will indeed need another run thru -for the sheer scary fun of it!

    Kindest, puro

    #33749
    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster

    This one was good fun. A fair few original ideas. I like it when the show can use the sci-fi/fantasy ideas that are available to it to make really bonkers things happen, in this case the tiny Tardis in particular, the fun-ness of which was multiplied by Clara carrying it around and the Doctor’s hand popping out of it now and then (the best bit being when he crawled off the train tracks – it’s a kind of humour Doctor Who doesn’t do often (what does?), but it feels just right).

    @flirtingdinosaur – I’m not sure the physics is wrong with ‘the turning the whole thing with the hand from the inside’. Because technically his hand was on the outside, it was sticking out of the Tardis, so he was manipulating the un-heavy blue box, as opposed to the massive time machine inside it. Although, I’m no physicist, so I could be wrong.

    Clara being ‘the Doctor’ was fun, mainly cos we got to have the Doctor talking about what normally goes through his head when he’s adventuring, eg ‘soon a leader will emerge, make sure you are that leader’. A few (and it is only a few) have complained about not liking Clara/there being too much Clara, but I think someone should stand up for her after this episode. I think she’s great, probably my favourite companion (although for some reason it bothers me that she’s lying to Danny – maybe cos I got it wrong last week when I said I didn’t actually think she was lying – oops).  I suppose if you don’t like her you can’t help it, but I don’t feel the Doctor is generally being edged aside because of her – there’s plenty of both characters.

    Anyway, this was a cool episode, probably one of the better this series.

    PS What did the Doctor say at the end, to the monsters? He said ‘I name you [something]!’

    #33750
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Great episode and, yes, @everyone, that was the killer line. The ending kind of throws my Missy is a future-Clara idea out the window. Must cogitate further on that.

    And, yes, @bluesqueakpip, I think this is the episode where the 12th incarnation decides to take on the mantle of The Doctor. Loved that whole scene.

    And agree with @phaseshift, we definitely need JM back next year.

    #33751
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish

    So has Missy planted Clara on the TARDIS

    Somebody has certainly planted Clara on the TARDIS. She was too bloody perfect in Series 7; always exactly what the Doctor needed.

    Incidentally, did you notice that the ‘Clara. My Clara’ is an echo of the Smith Doctor in his own time-stream? So – Valeyard?

    I still quite like the ‘female Master = Mistress’ bonkers theory, though. In support, I’d point out that one of the very last things we saw the Master doing was saving the Doctor’s life. So s/he could well have planted Clara in a horribly complex and more than slightly insane plan to save the Doctor and get him a new set of regenerations. After all, he knows the idiot is never going to ask for them himself.

    #33752
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @purofilion So sorry you’ve been in hospital x Sending solidarity from one sickly Who-fan to another!

    I enjoyed the Doctor/ Clara dynamic in this episode, as I’ve enjoyed it throughout Twelve’s run thus far. He is proud of her and hard on her and snippy with her and fond of her all at once. As I’ve said before (once or twice) – very grandfatherly.

    I hope Missy IS the Master in female form – what fun!

    #33753
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip LOL I love the idea of the Master trying to save the Doctor in a twisted sort of condemn-you-to-twelve-more-regenerations way.

    Given how heavily the Master-Doctor dynamic was influenced by all the slash fiction out there when Tennant and Simm faced off, that “boyfriend” comment of Missy’s does make me incline to the theory.

    Clara as the Valeyard? Mmmmn – I don’t think she’s actually future-Doctor. She blew in on a leaf. Does the Doctor blow in on a leaf? Surely he (or she) skateboards in on a cosmic headwind?

    I DO very much hope the Valeyard puts in an appearance however. I’d be pretty cross with Moff if he makes the first female incarnation of the Doctor, the Valeyard. But, as he is a massive tease and likes to poke the hornet’s nest, and given how (ridiculously) controversial a female Doctor still is in some parts of the fandom – it IS the sort of thing he’d do – just to annoy lots of different folks at once!

    #33755
    ReboStar @rebostar

    @purofilion Sadly me and Straxs are not one in the same, just a simple correlation of time lines that’s all.

    I also didn’t come here to just vent.

    I posted about a ufo in a scene and thought I might as well air a frustration while I am here.

    #33756
    Strax @strax

    @purofilion maybe I wasn’t clear.  I loved the episode, probably rates as one of the best of the season.  This is the first one that had me laughing out loud a lot, yet thinking, how cool is that.  Capaldi is brilliant.  Maybe so much that I want to see and hear more of him.   Just maybe the dislike of Clara brings out the best of capaldi.

    The he ending was so very interesting, and throws so many theries of missy out the door.   Cracking good.

    #33757
    ReboStar @rebostar

    How weird!

    #33758
    Strax @strax

    @rebostar some people get funny about vents.  It’s funny that we thought the same thing.  My eleven year old daughter loves Capaldi, thinks he is much like Baker.

    Clara is better this year than in the past.  So much so that I wonder why I don’t like her.  Maybe it’s the whole Danny thing.

    #33760
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Oh wow what an episode 2-d creature very reminicient of SCfi films of the 50s/60s lol. And Clara being a “substitute” doctor. And Missy going all possessive over Clara, does this really mean she planted her with the doctor or is it just that Missy has chosen Clara to play some future role in what she is planning for the Doctor. Perhaps through manipulations by Danny (just playing devils advocate here)

    #33761
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish I must quickly say this before I’m ‘modded’ away but I was reading all the posts for the last episode and riffing thru my (poor) memory regarding the Greek and Roman allusions through out the last episode: “all choices where death is at stake must burn with the sting of that enormity”. I believe that was you! And how beautifully put and so relevant as ‘side-note’ for this whole series I think.

    ‘Who will pay the journeyman?’ was a thought eddying thru my morphine riddled brain! There is a Greek epigram, which you might know in its exact form, but which roughly states that once you pay to pass over the River Styx things are so much cheaper in ‘hell’.

    This plays into thoughts of worthy actions and worthy people: to what extent is Danny a real companion of Clara’s? Is he cyberised as @chickenelly stated last week? Is he controlling and commanding as @bluesqueakpip has commented? Or is the commanding nature something so part of him (as ex-army) that he can’t avoid it when faced with a loved one’s potential ‘crash’. And we think Clara is heading for a crash & neither seat belt nor ‘buffers’ will save her…

    Thank you for you kind wishes and also back to you…you are a little sickly fish…some nice fish food? Perhaps fresh water? I know! A new house with colourful shells (I picked up some scuba diving where I saw many of your cousins; we were able to take them home -the shells not the fish!).

    Kindest, puro

     

    #33762
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    And can I just add – the Doctor was hard on Clara – she saved Rigsy from committing suicide with her hairband and the first thing he did was call his Mum – bless!

    #33763
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @Purofilion Thanks for the fish food and shiny new house 🙂 Some morphine wouldn’t go amiss either! Hope you’re on the mend.

    “If you want the good news, the rent here’s cheap as Hell” Callimachus

    I think it’s a feint and bluff – we’re supposed to wonder if Danny is a wrong ‘un but I reckon he’ll come good at the twelfth hour.

    #33764
    Anonymous @

    oops @rebostar and @strax. Right first apology and I’ve only been back for 10 mins after a long hospital visit. I guess it seemed like only the negative stuff was mentioned and that sometimes annoys me -it’s a pet issue of mine so I must apologise.  Truly.  I’m glad you both liked the episode and I can understand people have dislikes about things within an episode. Heck, if we all liked everything where would the debates with rich texture occur?  I think that the Dr is definitely expecting Clara to be more than just a companion,  as if, from being TIGirl, she’s expected to reach higher and do better: “A Man’s reach should exceed his grasp else what’s a heaven for?” (Browning). Oh, I hope I have the words in the right order rather than tangled and that the attribution’s correct! -at this early hour for me!

    Of course this leads to Heaven and Missy’s domain which I agree, suggests she’s not nice. Not one iota nice. I believe she’s the Master.  We haven’t had him surface since Tennant and so I believe it’s time for a…. da da da duuum… return!! From a Who sense, it makes sense.

    Kindest, purofilion

    #33765
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Purofilion and @juniperfish – I’ve just been nominated as nerd of the week on the Graun (in the nicest possible way) for spotting that 2M65 (on the train) might be a reference to the second episode of Story M in BG Who.

    Story: The Romans. Episode title: All Roads Lead To Rome. 😉

    #33766
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish  interesting. Grr Callimachus…yes!! I studied Ancient Greek for three years and never, not ever, could speak a word of it properly. I used to do terrible things (according to the teacher- a dainty, mischievous man who lived in his own netherworld and was sorely interrupted by the bustle of the modern era when he looked up from his books. As if he was a part-timer in this land. His real place was in the Ancient, dusty but eminently colourful world of debate and elocution) such as translate word by word. According to Dr___ it was never in my ‘mind and heart’. Sniff.

    We thought Missy might be good and Danny possibly bad but now Missy is the wrong ‘un and Danny ‘Right’. I do wonder who he killed; should it have been a woman; was he somehow teleported into the future and been memory wormed?

    …and this theme of “I had a really bad day” is still undiscovered. Whoo-ee, lots to keep us guessing. I’m enjoying the arc that is both scientific/phantasm as well as emotional and personal. Moffat has it on the money this time -it’s complicated in every way and yet there’s comedy in the blackness or blackness in the comedy…A true ‘darama’ with comic (buffa) touches.

    #33767
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip Well done you – and Rome I’ll wager is Gallifrey

    @Purofilion Your Ancient Greek teacher sounds quite charming 🙂 Yes, I’m enjoying this season – it feels as if it is swooping down on us in a velvet lined cape.

    #33768
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Been having some thoughts about Missy , not those kind you smutty lot though I could see how her stern demeanour could lead some of you astray. It Was more of a bonkers thought what if our little miss Missy is a totally new character but is still a time lady/Lord but of the ancient variety ie from the Rassilon era (they were porputedly truly immortal in those days) perhaps banished to the nethersphere for some transgression against the rest of the timelord society. Now when has something like that happened before oh yes a certain trouble maker who liked to interfere and wasn’t he banished to an insignificant planet called dirt or earth or some such.
    Maybe those similarities are why she refers to him as her boyfriend….

    #33769
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip  3 Cheers for our Blue! Congratulations and over at the Crown a champagne cocktail? Oh, probably a beer. I made a funny mistake at a pub in Manchester once: I walked in, with boyIlion in pram and asked for a gin and tonic with added lime or something. They swore at me!  Apparently, it’s whatever’s up, “nuttin’ d’fancy here, laddy”

    I was reading your posts too -whilst in the ‘hopsital’ – “an eternal war…wandering the universe, unable to stop fighting the enemy, he cannot even die. He will never stop being the soldier”. Beaut and the spot of the 2M65…I didn’t even see it! You mentioned that he doesn’t like to be touched -this episode may have left that alone but I recall in Robots of S that when Marion kissed his cheek, the Doctor placed his hand on the spot, stricken or pleasantly surprised? Of course this led to the arrival of the Sherriff…but I do wonder why he’s lost that need to be touched? Is it just the alien in him? Or does he feel unworthy?

    Again with the worthiness, the weighing of the hearts that @juniperfish and @phaseshift discussed and the Egyptian and other Ancient societies which have been drawn upon in spades -quite literally as @mudlark pointed out with the facsimiles of cuneiform in The Orient Express…more & more of these tiny tit-bits were suggested in this episode…

    I also noted those who didn’t enjoy the last episode referred to DEM when that wasn’t the case! Was there one in Flatline? I didn’t spot one -by that I mean even a fake DEM!

    #33770
    Anonymous @

    Ahh @phaseshift made some remarks about the Horseman of the Apocalypse…back to the other previous episode

    #33772

    @bluesqueakpip

    I still quite like the ‘female Master = Mistress’ bonkers theory, though.

    I don’t think this really counts an bonkers – and I’ve staked marmite on it.

    Oh, and @whingers, single hero stories went out of the window the moment Buffy said: “Uh, Hi! Willow, right?” You really ought to be used to it by now.

    #33773
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    I loved this episode. Lots of really good dialogue. The tiny Tardis was fab, and Clara as the Doctor’s representative on earth was brilliant. A really good way to explore the Doctor’s perspective. His manipulation of people, his lies, and his (recently rather jarring) lack of sentimentality about the recently dead: All exhibited by Clara this episode, and all for a good (well I say “good”???) reason.

    I think kudos has to go to @janetteb for pointing out the miniaturisation theme over several episodes. You can’t really miss it tonight! 🙂

    What’s with the multiples of 11 recently, by the way? (The 2D aliens communicate with multiples of 11, and in last week’s episode the Mummy kills after 66 seconds, which is “the number of Evil twice over” – i.e. 33.) Were there any multiples of eleven referenced prior to last week?

    @TimeCahoot: Missy says “Clara. My Clara. I have chosen well.” And having mentioned Missy, I have to say I love Michelle Gomez, and I can’t wait to see ore of her (hope it will be this series! 🙂

    Congratulations @bluesqueakpip! 🙂

    x

    #33774

    @bluesqueakpip

    Danny sound like a controlling and potentially abusive boyfriend

    He is coming across as alarmed and trying not to show it.

    He is alarmed ‘cos he thinks someone he loves is an addict;

    He is trying not to show it because he knows that being direct will drive her away and further into danger;

    So like all such people Danny is about find out that he has been systematically and cunningly lied to.

    It was *Clara* who asserted that Danny has territorial issues. That was a lie, one of many.

    As stories go it is as old as Zammo flushing his stash down the sink (because he knows he has a reserve).

    #33776
    Strax @strax

    Re watched the episode.  At the start, the guy on the phone distinctly said “I figured out who HE is”.  I’m leaning more towards the he is the master and the master is the she. 😉

    #33779
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – I agree it could go either way. Danny could be the caring boyfriend who’s acting all suspicious because his girlfriend is addicted to something dangerous.

    Or he could be the controlling boyfriend who’s making Clara feel like her mentor and friend is … err, a mad alien in a magic box who keeps dragging her into appalling danger? Okay, that sentence didn’t go so well. 😉

    But the way it looks right now is: Danny meets girlfriend. Danny discovers girlfriend has a secret love for free solo climbing. Danny reacts badly to this. Girlfriend then continues lying about going climbing because she knows boyfriend will react badly…

    The question is whether the admittedly dangerous activity is something that’s very bad for Clara, or something that’s just part of the way she is. Is Clara lying because he’s trying to stop an activity she’s addicted to – or is she lying because she instinctively knows he shouldn’t be trying to stop her doing something she loves?

    Or, going into bonkers theory-dom, is she lying because she can’t stop travelling with the Doctor? Because Missy programmed her/picked her too carefully…

    The Doctor’s comment on lying, incidentally, was ‘a great survival skill – and a bad habit’. He appears un-bothered about Clara lying to Danny, much more concerned that she’s started lying to him (when she had no need to and even when it’s obvious he knows who’s calling). Interesting.

    #33780
    Anonymous @

    This season as a whole has put some distance between the viewers and the Doctor.

    First he hasn’t found his personality or at least I haven’t seen it yet?. Maybe this is due to the other characters stories hogging the lime light?.

    @rebostar has it?

    I think that this series has made the Dr clearer than ever: He isn’t touchy feely, he tells it as it is and informs those of earth it’s not his decision to make (re blowing it up). The fact is when introduced to the prof or the mechanic last week, he said “I’m nosey parker” [big grin]. We know more than ever who this dr is. His clarity shines on the screen. As it’s drama and fantasy then it must be character driven and other characters make the drama so complex. Other wise, we’d have a one shot dr with no fleshing out of the other people on board -mechanic, Danny, Clara, Missy (there in name for the moment!). This season has given us emotion mixed with intellect -the best a drama has to offer. More than just “Hi I’m the Doctor and…run” with then, lots of running as it was with Tennant.

    I recall RTD stating on the commentary that he needed more “running”. God, why? This Doctor gets puffed out -then he speaks. The talking is the character development which leads to viewers knowing and seeing him better for who he is. For my $ it’s the best tradition realised.

    @oblique I think we had dark last week? This is a family show. Edgy and claustro? Great, but I think those words are bandied around an awful lot with the tele. Do we need edgy? I’m gettin’ old and those words tend to grate. As if edgy  is superior art when it requires only spontaneity (Plato and Socrates via Tartt).

    Kindest, puro

     

    #33781
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @bluesqueakpip I thought the most interesting comment about the lying was when Clara asked (and she was sonicking the earpiece at the time, so was perhaps just speaking to herself) “Does it even still count as lying if you’re doing it for someone’s own good?” I got the impression from this that she is not trying to hide her “addiction”, but genuinely feels like she is protecting Danny by lying to him. Of course she could be lying to herself when she says this?

    She then adds “well – technically for their own good”. I’m not sure what she means by this.

    I liked the Doctor’s view of lying as a great survival skill. Although even that is only a half-truth, because lying is often the way he saves people’s lives. And of course earlier in the episode we saw this in action: “Act normal, but get everyone out” for example. And most obviously Clara’s action plan: “Lie to them. Give them hope. Tell them they’re all going to be fine”.

    #33783
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @pedant @bluesqueakpip

    I agree that it could go either way with Danny, but for now I think he’s a good guy.

    He hasn’t been at all controlling with Clara, even passively, in any of the scenes we’ve actually seen him in. He’s been very patient (maybe too patient (suspiciously patient??)) with her, even when it’s obvious he’s being lied to. She’s been “mysterious” throughout their relationship, keeping her other life as hidden as possible. He’s been stood up at short notice many times for spurious excuses. Was it just me who laughed out loud when he said it “sounds physical”/cut to grunts from Clara and Rigsy as they try to manipulate the (Prisoner style 🙂 ) chair out the window? 😳

    Been thinking again about Orson… why does he have a TARDIS spacesuit on?  They obv have others in the wardrobe dept, as shown in Kill the Moon. Therefore it’s a deliberate production choice.  Going back dig out the Danny is Orson theory again… Hmm. I’ll be very surprised (well not really, cos I’m usually wrong 🙂 ) if we don’t revisit that… and the gunless soldier before the end of the series.

    Lies – Clara discovers that the Doctor lies to give people hope, which will motivate them to try to help themselves. She has an awkward moment as she tries to say her lying is the same thing when she clearly knows it’s not.  So, has Missy chosen her because of her lying/her addiction to timetravel/danger, or is she lying because she’s working for Missy? When did Missy choose her? How far back in Clara’s story does Missy go?

    #33784
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @purofilion

    Agreed. I hadn’t thought of it, but now you mention it it rings very true: We really know this Doctor.

    If there is, perhaps, more distance than there was with Matt Smith or David Tennant, it’s because there’s a lot more thinking and a lot less running 🙂

    It’s also perhaps partly because this Capaldi incarnation is pretty unsentimental – and so we don’t automatically want to give him a cuddle…

    …Which is a good thing, because he wouldn’t thank us if we did 🙂

    x

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