Heaven Sent

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  • #50044
    lesames @lesames

    New to this site so be gentle. But I thought Hell bent just a brilliant episode. Best in a long while.

    #50050
    Superfreak @superfreak

    Thanks! glad you like the track. Im so glad there are people who like series 9 cause it really hit a nerve with me (although I have lost someone so it makes it more poignant-but then again, most people have I guess) It kind of frustrates me when people keep saying that the writing in series 9 is weak cause Im like ‘WHAT???!’ Its so deep and moving and beautiful-what exactly do they find weak about it?!

    #50173
    Missy @missy

    Like a fool, I started watching this epiesode after Face the Raven, couldn’t help myself. *grins*

    My jaw began to ache because it was resting on my chest – almost!

    Pressing the stop button on my handset, I sat there for a while, head in a whirl.

    Just twelve minutes in when I stopped it, and I can’t wait until tonight to see the rest.

    What a doosy!

    Watch this space.

    Missy

    #50180
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lesames   Not to worry, we’re not beastie show-offs here.  But you might want to take your comments over the the “Hell Bent” thread instead of here.

    @superfreak  Well, there are people who don’t like all kinds of aspects of S9: the rather murky tease of “Sleep No More”, anything about Clara, the Fisher King, Ashildr, etc.; a concentration on themes rather than action-y plots, and relationships rather than comic-book style confrontations (Wham!  Pow!  Arrrrgghhhhh!  The Rani!) that they hoped/expected to see; elements not explained to their satisfaction; Steven Moffat, etc.  I am, as you can guess, not sympathetic to what I regard as mostly nit-picky complaints, which just means that I found the emotional sweep of the season simply over-rides that stuff.  But for people whose sensibilities catch on these things which then pull  them out of the story, it must be very annoying and frustrating.  Personally, I feel the way I think you do about it: delighted and grateful and still happily thinking it all over and savoring the savory bits, which I find plentiful.  We are the lucky ones, IMO, not letting the ideal of the perfect spoil the accomplishments of the very very good (and sometimes heavenly).

    @missy  Oh, boy; 12 minutes!  All of “Heaven Sent” might just put you into a delirium of astonishment and anguished joy.  It gave me a bellyache from being wound tighter and tighter — some of the most masterfully successful audience manipulation I’ve ever seen and appreciated.  I’d go watch again now, but then I’ll get no sleep tonight.  I want to be fresh for a movie theater broadcast of “The Pearl Fishes” tomorrow, courtesy of the Met Opera in NYC.

    Anyway, enjoy!  You might want some brandy after . . . just to settle your system.

     

    #50191
    Missy @missy

    Hello each, I’m still recovering! tonight I shall watch the final epi and the extras, then get back to you.
    One thing before I go. A second shadow? Isn’t that the Vashta Nerada?
    Must stop thinking about this epi, think I’ll lie down for a bit.

    #50198
    Missy @missy

    It took me a bit, but I got it!

    Brilliant writing.

    One puzzle, what had ‘bird’ got to do with anything?

    Was it the Raven? I know that a bird pecking away could eventually break through anything but………?

    Missy

    #50201
    todeledo @todeledo

    I think it’s a metaphor in an English farytail about a shepherd. Like you wrote, the bird will eventually pick through the mountain. It’s a clue for the Doctor so that he will know what to do when he sees the wall.

    #50206
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy   Not the Raven — it’s a middle-European (?) folk tale, about the hugeness of Eternity and the smallness of men (even great men, like the emperor), one of many in which authorities find wisdom by turning to humble country folk for answers. Anybody remember if the fellow whose challenge was how to render the hard surface of the world softer for royal feet wherever they might tread?  The answer to the question was not to cover the world in leather, as had been suggested by the king’s advisors, but for the king to wear shoes; not sure whether the person providing that answer was shepherd, peasant, sage, or passing knight errant (it’s rarely a woman of any station, as I recall).

    It’s the Doctor’s solution to the problem of the diamond wall that throws a strong emphasis onto the bird (“one hell of a”) rather than on the wisdom of common folk (and corresponding foolishness of official royal counsellors).

    The second shadow in this case is a metaphor for your personal death, brought into existence when  you’re born, following you until it gets you in the end; in this particular case, the Veil, a version of Death that kills its victim many times over — and yet, being the Doctor, he outwits it repeatedly and escapes it in the end — only not really, because *someday* — !  A bit like Clara in her Tardis, I think.  S9 is so much about death.

    #50682
    Missy @missy

    Hello each.

    Yesterday I gave myself a treat and watched Heaven Sent twice- one after the other. (Have already seen it twice before)

    My gawd it’s superb, clever, unrelenting and Peter Capaldi excells himself.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50689
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  TWICE?!  Wow!  That’s a lot of — um; well, a lot of beautiful, perfectly paced, gorgeously lit and framed, terrifying cauldron full of a seething churn of loss, repentance, and the fortitude of stars.  Or something.

    Now I’ll have to go watch again, myself.  Thanks, for the whetting of the appetite for another helping (or two) of that painfully hot and spicy but wonderfully nourishing — soup?

    Well, never mind us;  seriously, does CapDoc ever get to eat anything but soup?  Is soup the food this Time Lord lives on (Oh, and chips, coffee, and other stuff we’ve never seen him actually *eat*, right?  Except . . . soup)?

    #50695
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    Don’t knock the soup. I live on soup and @tardisblue in Oz we call “jello” jelly. So, yes I eat jello/jelly a lot too. I’m kidding ichi, knock the soup all you like! 🙂

    I think @ichabod we saw PC eat Chinese or Indian takeaway last season during the episode where Clara and he were involved in a heist? Time Heist, I think?

    At the end, all the happy ‘thieves’ reunited in the Tardis eating Chinese food and the Doctor said “eat all you like, Clara, you know that calories in the Tardis don’t count” and she said “In that case….Really?”

    And of course he was dead panning it.

    Dear Lawd, I love PC. Please can we keep him? I mean to keep him! (OK, that was Rochester protesting to God beneath the stormy clouds, “I aim to Keep Jane Eyre.” It’s sort of how I feel -without the sexy bits!)

    Puro unleashed.

    #50697
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson  OH yeah . . . let’s keep him, just as long as he wants to be, er, kept?  Um.

    And yes, I remember the take-out dinner now!  Thank goodness.  But — did he *eat* any?  Onscreen?  Well, maybe none of them did, cuz lines, after all.  Talking with your mouth full, not recommended . . . People gotta eat, even TLs, right?  Even thin TLs who are also rebel TLs?  But I think I have been unrealistic in my pursuit of realism.

    And I never knock soup if I can help it; the splatter factor . . . I have recently had the great pleasure of seeing my sometimes quite finicky sister fall hard for Vietnamese pho.  I’m carefully not telling her that there’s usually a cube of sugar dissolved in it, contributing to the wonderful flavor of the broth.

    #50700
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    Yes – TWICE! And I need to see it again. It’s definitely my favourite of the last six episodes, although the other five are marvellous.
    The first words he speaks about the shadow, then when he emerges from the capsule wotumacallit, ending : “And I’ll never ever stop”
    Just something about the way his voice deals with those lines, brings me out in goose pimples. Not to mention the superb plot. Is there no end to SM’s genius?
    Delighted that my post has encouraged you to watch again.
    I seem to have found my purpose in life. *big, big grin*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50703
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    Spotonski, it was Time Heist.

    Unleash all you like m’dear. I love PC to bits too.

    I always said there was more ‘human’ in him than the other three. He seemd so vunerable at itmes.

    The man is pure magic.

    Fingers crossed.

    Missy

    #50704
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    Ta muchly for the explantion.

    Thumbs up

    Missy

    #50753
    Missy @missy

    @lesames

    Sorry I missed you.

    Hello and welcome.

    cheers,

    Missy

    #50754
    Missy @missy

    It’s time, really time – this time – for the men in white coats to take me in charge.

    Why you ask? Or maybe you don’t ask!

    I watched Heaven Sent again last night!!!!!!!

    Help is required I’m becoming obsessive – well – more obsessive.

    Cheers

    Missy

    #51593
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    I just saw “Heaven Sent”

    Gallifrey..Gallifrey! Finally!

    God, It was huge, so much stuff in just one episode.
    Definitely the most hard trial for the Doctor in recent history…the 300 years exile at Trenzalore are nothing compared to this. Two billions years..and at least one billions and half of copy..my god poor Doctor. I wonder now, how the loop has begun with the original Doctor and the first clues on the castle. We’ll never know.
    And..at the end, Gallifrey was behind all that? Why? And most important…i’m confused about the confession dial, what was his role in all that?
    The arc of the season is the hybrid, finally we know. It’s official! What a chliffanger, the Doctor is the hybrid…we sure? Another joke of Moffat? Oh god my head explode.

    Congrats to Moffat and Rachel Talalay, what a great hour of television, i still prefer “Dark Water” from the same duo…but Heaven Sent is almost there at the same level.

    Murray Gold pure Gold. best work of the season and maybe…of the series. Incredible. I want now the deluxe cd edition.

    What a season guys!

    #51597
    ichabod @ichabod

    @kbranach  Yes, great season, in my book.  Loved Heaven Sent.  Hell Bent, though, has caused much more dissention among the fans (at least those who post on discussion boards), so I’ll be curious to hear what you think of it.  There’s a good deal of interesting commentary on Heaven Sent on Rachel Talalay’s blog.  I found it fascinating.

    #51599
    Missy @missy

    @kbranagh

    Heaven Sent is such a favourite of mine, that I’ve watched it more than any other – except Husbands of River Song.
    However, Face the Raven is Superb, we might see more of Sarah Dollard. Bello bent is wondrful, and like the former two, very, very sad.
    It’s more the Doctor’s reaction than Clara’s. For possibly the second time in his life, he is completely helpless.
    The grief on his face followed by the fury, had me reaching for the kleenex, as did Clara’s face when she sees that the Doctor really doesn’t know who she is in Hello Bent, heart breaking.
    Brilliant writing.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51600
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    Guys i rewatch “Heave Sent” again and i have a doubt about one thing in the episode, maybe is a deliberate mistake.

    In the castle there is food, edible food and the flowers are still fresh…so…why the Clara painting is old and eroded by time?

    #51601
    Anonymous @

    @kbranagh

    Every Moffat makes mistakes.

    But seriously, I think in this episode there are some rooms that reset themself as I believe the Doctor put it such as the soup that is always full or the grave he always has to re-dig while other rooms do not which is why the wall continues to break down.

    Hope that makes sense.

    #51603
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  For possibly the second time in his life, he is completely helpless.

    Yes — and instead of frantic, when he realizes that Ashildr can’t help either, he goes still — and turns to look away from Clara, the doomed one who’s doomed because (in his mind, at least) he kept taking her into danger with him, to please her and enjoy her company.  He’s come smack up against one of those Endings that has to happen; and once it’s happened, being the Doctor, he sets about breaking out of prison to reverse that ending.  I think it was just brilliant, to have him succeed in bringing her back to a sort of life, not once but twice (in his mind-Tardis in Heaven Sent, and in a sort of reality in Hell Bent) — but the end of their traveling together is the price.  So he also fails.  It just gives me, as a writer and a fan, these chills of delight at the fine-handed cleverness of it, and deep appreciation for the creative team’s ingenuity in managing to give viewers who disagreed with each other about how to end it a similarly divided reward — it offers everyone *part* of what they wanted, but not all.  Which is, after all, what the Doctor and Clara got, too.

    As my lawyer husband used to say, the best settlement is one where everybody goes away dissatisfied — because no one got *all* of what they wanted, so each can look at an opponent and say, “I didn’t get it all my way — but neither did you, you bastard!”  But then again, I’m a Libra; I see the beauty of compromise and at least an attempt at fairness.

    @theconsultingdoctor  I believe the Doctor put it such as the soup that is always full or the grave he always has to re-dig while other rooms do not which is why the wall continues to break down. 

    I hadn’t thought of a causal relationship between what the Doctor’s clues he leaves for himself and the way the wall has to give way to his long fight against it — I like it!  Have the guts and imagination to upset the status quo set by your enemy, and you have a chance to destroy the closed system he has locked you up in!  The alternatives being, of course, to yield — make up something you can convince him is “the secret” — or shut down and try to wait him out with passive resistance.  The Doctor isn’t a passive kind of person, is he?  That’s why he has adventures.

    Now, a Buddhist Doctor — an enlightened one, mind you — what could happen then?

     

    #51606
    Missy @missy

    @theconsultingdoctor

    Yes, that’s right. Everything resets when he dies and off he goes again.
    A marvellous episode, one of Steven’s best in my opinion.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51607
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    Well said. I’ve watched this more than any other episode in the series – only just beating ‘Husbands’.

    A Buddhist Doctor – now, there’s a thought.

    I still live in hopes that there will be an episode with Missy and River sparring.

    How sensational that would that be and a fitting ‘farewell’ from Steven Moffat. *sigh*

    Cheers

    Missy

    #51608
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    Guys sorry i have another question about Clara.

    Sadly i never watched the original/classic series! How many companion have died in the show history before Clara? She’s the first?

    I’m glad for her cameo in this episode, a final goodbye to the Doctor.
    I’m still crying for “Face The Raven” by the way.

    Thanks.

    Next week “Hell Bent”.

    #51609
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    The Clara cameo reminds me a lot the Amy cameo from “The Time Of The Doctor” with the hand on the cheek. Very similar and both for the last goodbye.

    #51610
    TheDentistOfDavros @thedentistofdavros

    @kbranagh

    Anyone who doesn’t want to know which companions have died I suggest you look away now! Hello the ones I can think off are Katarina and Sara Kingdom (first doctor companions). Adric (fifth doctor) and Kamelion (a robot and companion of fifth) all died on the classic series as far as I know!

    #51611
    Missy @missy

    @kbranagh
    Amy and Rory died, thanks to the Weeping Angels, with Matt Smith as Doctor.
    Every time I watch Face the Raven I cry, mostly because of the Doctor’s reaction. Peter capaldi kissing Clara’s hand is a real killer. Why is it, that such a simple act can break one’s heart?
    In Hell Bent, it’s more Clara’s reaction, when DW says that if he met Clara, he’d know her. that look of desolation on Clara’s face, is another killer. *says Missy, reaching for the tissues again*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51614
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @ichabod    I think it was just brilliant, to have him succeed in bringing her back to a sort of life, not once but twice (in his mind-Tardis in Heaven Sent, and in a sort of reality in Hell Bent) — but the end of their traveling together is the price.  So he also fails.     And not just the end of their travelling, but he loses even his remembrance of her, so tragic when you consider everything he went through with her from the beginning, and all she did for him. An echo of Donna’s fate (I’ve been watching Series 4 recently and revelling in all that was wonderful about that relationship!). But a mercy in some ways, as from what we saw at Christmas, the Doctor will be able to go forward whole and healed (reset, as many people talked about just before and after his last regeneration).

    @missy    I’ve never thought of Amy and Rory as having died, because we knew they had each other and lived a full and happy life. The Doctor lost them, but it would be a very selfish, Doctor-centric point of view to consider them dead as a result!

    I’d like to think that the Doctor’s new regeneration cycle combined with his giving up of Clara means enough of a refresh that he can return to the Doctor of old, who said farewell to his companions with gratitude and affection, wished them well for the future, and then moved on, the carefree wanderer of old.

    #51623
    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus  . . . .return to the Doctor of old, who said farewell to his companions with gratitude and affection, wished them well for the future, and then moved on, the carefree wanderer of old.

    In some ways, I think that would be a great move, though maybe more suited to Chibnall than Moffat . . . ?  They have, after all, pushed the heavy-duty entanglement with the companion as far as I think it can go without becoming too “adult” for “family viewing”.  And Capaldi, who’s been a fan *forever*, might be enthusiastic about returning the character to the earlier style of the Doctor as a sort of magical chum, taking you for a ride on his magic carpet (with darker parts woven into its design, of course, but more upbeat and light-hearted.

    On the other hand . . . I like the darker tones, and once you’ve struck that tragic chord such a strong wallop . . . but in TV, yes, I suppose you *can* un-ring a bell if you’re determined to, and skillful about it.

    #51625
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  Peter capaldi kissing Clara’s hand is a real killer. Why is it, that such a simple act can break one’s heart?

    Yes, that was inspired, wasn’t it?  We needed something more focused and specific than a hug, since hugs had become ore common emotional currency between them.  Apparently — I read in some commentary, maybe Rachel Talalay’s page, that he came up with that — guy’s got a great instinct for body language, doesn’t he?  As in writing fiction, it’s the unique, telling detail more than the grandest gesture that illuminates a story with the illusion of life.  I’m fascinated by the choices that creative people make in their work, and I don’ t have the musical education to reliably spot those choices in music (thinking of chamber music in particular), but with some actors it’s very clear: this, instead of that, and why, and how well?

    Funny word, “acting”.  To act is to *do* a thing or express something.  But “acting” in the theatrical sense is to pretend to do or express a thing.  I read something by a stage director, I think, in a book on stage acting, that struck me because it’s so opposed to the whole “method acting” theory (I think): that the job of the actor is not to feel the emotional weight of her lines herself, but waken those feelings in the audience, who have come to feel those feelings in as real a way as possible *without* actually murdering someone or having a nervous breakdown etc.  I guess that’s what makes acting a craft as well as an art, although each actor has their own personal “box of tricks”.

    #51627
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    interesting discussion about acting

    I like the idea of waking the audience’s feelings -the empathy with that actor/character. 1 of my maj issues was actors having to look like the person/character. Ie: losing a lot of weight in order to be convincing etc…I always thought that the beautiful Jennifer Lawrence in the Hunger Games (I saw it with my son as otherwise, nope!) kept a steady figure -normal in the ‘personal’ sense and not stick figured which you’d expect in a town (District…?) where food is difficult to find.

    I  think the actor should be convincing enough that they don’t have to do unusual things to their body to accommodate the part.

    That’s just my opinion of course.

    Kindest all,

    PuroSolo (drat: sons in school again. Second day in a row after a 2 week Easter break of sleeping in til 10 am and now he’s up at 6.30 trying to locate a sleep routine 🙂

    #51629
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @ichabod      I think it would be possible to do both. The darkness, the gravitas, that we find so moving can be provided in many ways, and it doesn’t have to be in such a way that it holds the Doctor back over multiple episodes. Moffat has set the tone already, in his handling of Clara’s departure and the immediate follow up. I did so enjoy seeing Cap Doc just having fun in the Christmas episode, and yet a couple of those moments with River were deeply moving.

    Re “acting”, I’m reminded of Peter O’Toole’s wonderful line “I’m not an actor, I’m a movie star!”

    @puroandson     The only people in this house with a “sleep routine” are the parents. Dude Arbutus has given up even pretending to go to bed at a reasonable time, and we have given up pretending that we think he does.   🙂  (And speaking of that, it’s past my bedtime!)

    #51630
    ichabod @ichabod

    @puroandson  Like when guys buff up like mad to play boxers or beefy midwestern guys . . . I guess it depends on the reasons for “looking like” that character’s description, and how far you’d have to go for how much of an effect.  Is there a bit of a double standard about this, too?  Lots of “ugly duckling” movies with women dolled down to look homely, and then true love (or a makeover) blossoms them out into roses — as long as they’re thin throughout.  The guys, not so narrowly controlled, maybe?  Trying to think of examples.  Nope.  Brain flub.  It’s late here, too.

    @arbutus  Yes, you’re right — they did a great job with covering lightness and gravity in “Husbands”, though I thought it was interesting that some fans complained that it was just goofy nonsense until that wonderful ending.  Which it was, but why not?  In this case, the shift in tone worked very well — the light ‘n’ silly set off the sweet and melancholy perfectly, I thought, leaving the door open for any tone Moffat chooses for S10.  What a clever bunch they are, at the Doctor Who Factory . . .

    #51637
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    @thedentistofdavros @missy

    Thank you again guys!

    Clara wasn’t the first! Interesting. So the companions can die in Doctor Who.
    Soon or later i have to watch the classic series.

    I can’t wait for Hell Bent! Sound legendary.

    #51640
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    I agree about changing oneself to fit a role – or rather not doing so. However, acting ability alone can’t always cut it.

    A prime example was The Kings Speech. Although it was a good story/script, Colin Firth as George V1 ruined the film for me. Good actor he may be, but he looked nothing like the King.
    This was a shame it could have been an award winner – or was it?

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51641
    Missy @missy

    @arbutus Re “acting”, I’m reminded of Peter O’Toole’s wonderful line “I’m not an actor, I’m a movie star!”

    Now there I disagree. Peter O’Toole, was an exceptional actor – not a film star. Memories of Lawrance of Arabia and The Lion in Winter are prime examples of his talent.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51642
    Missy @missy

    @kbranagh “I can’t wait for Hell Bent! Sound legendary.”

    Make sure you have the tissues handy, Clara’s facial expression in the cafe is another killer. You will know what I mean when you get to it.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51648
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    SPOILERS FOR HELL BENT!

    That scene in the diner is the one that gets to me every time. The way Clara just looks away. She can’t even look him in the eye.

    #51649

    @craig @jimthefish

    If it is a spoiler for Hell Bent it should not be here. Especially when we know somebody is watching through for the first time.

    #51654
    Missy @missy

    @pedant

    Ouch! Sorry. *blushes*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51658
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    So Clara come back again in “Hell Bent”? Another hallucinations?

    #51660

    @kbranagh

    Don’t fish, wait. You really don’t want it ruined.

    #51662
    Missy @missy

    @kbranagh

    Just wait, watch and enjoy.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51929
    ichabod @ichabod

    Hey, guys — check out this link!

    http://www.doctorwhonews.net

    I’m off to buy my membership in this year’s World Con so I can vote in the competition for the Hugos!

     

     

    #51930
    ichabod @ichabod

    Link to the convention and Hugo link,

    http://midamericon2.org

    You don’t have to be an attending member to vote, in case anyone is interested.

     

    #51976
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    I am intrested, very interested.

    Thank you ichabod

    I shall find out how to do this tomorrow.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51999
    ichabod @ichabod

    @missy  You are most welcome!

    #52019
    Missy @missy

    @ichabod

    “Thumbs up!”

    cheers,

    Missy

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