Hell Bent
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9 December 2015 at 02:14 #49115
@soundworld: But then we found out in Heaven Sent that one second clock time to the Doctor can be the equivalent of minutes thinking inside his head. 🙂
9 December 2015 at 02:19 #49116@jphamlore Yes, but Clara didn’t have that ability (so far as we know, being a human) when she took on the similar role in Trap Street. They both took on a dangerous ‘countdown to death’. I’m just pointing it out as the Mummy incident was referenced in Hell Bent. (Cue joke: are you my Mummy? – Oh! Perhaps that ties into the bonkers theory about Missy-as-mother… )
9 December 2015 at 02:31 #49117@Morpho
So my take is that Missy was sent to Earth on a mission. She had that big Matrix ball
thing which implies to me she had backing of TL’s with conditions. The confession dial
fell in to her lap so to speak? Then she probably modified it or Rasillon did and set up the
trap street. She is after all unhinged so this makes sense. 🙂
When you said “Clara tracking him down’ there I’m confused about your meaning.
9 December 2015 at 02:38 #49118Anonymous @
Yes, that makes sense. I just rewatched The Magician’s Apprentice, and at the start Clara and Missy track the Doctor back to medieval England using information based on the assumption that the Doctor was planning on using the confession dial in its intended way. But later we learned that the dial was used by Rassilon only as an interrogation chamber. So why did the Doctor have a farewell party in the first place? Or, if it was just for lulz, why were Clara and Missy able to track him down based on him having a confession dial?
9 December 2015 at 02:50 #49119@morpho: In retrospect didn’t the confession dial look a bit hacked open in The Sorceror’s Apprentice when Missy handed it tauntingly to Clara?
9 December 2015 at 02:53 #49120Yes indeed! I wondered about this and whether it had something to do with his escape, or HOME being on the azbantium wall. I wonder what it really means…
9 December 2015 at 03:08 #49121Been reading the recent comments, and I think that people might be overthinking what happened.
I am more than happy to go with just what Moffat presented us.
The Doctor is angry. He blames Rassilon,. He punishes Rassilon. He wants to save Clara. He momentarily abandons being the Doctor to do just that. But he miscalculates, and Clara will always be stuck between the penultimate and the last heartbeat. So they both decide to take a chance on who will forget who and the Doctor forgets Clara.
He finds himself at the diner. He doesn’t recognise her. And he will never again recognise her. She makes the point about memories and a song. He plays a few bars on his guitar. It is so perfect that it brings tears to the eyes of (well, me).
They both end up in their own Tardis.
And it is still so so perfect that it brings tears to the eyes of (well, me).
Not Me, you understand, but me.
9 December 2015 at 04:29 #49122Are there any theories about who drove the Doctor to the diner? Did he simply catch a ride from a friendly stranger or was the driver someone more interesting?
9 December 2015 at 05:08 #49123Goodness, people have been busy around here!
@ichabod This: I wish the Doctor had wiped the Confession Dial and sent that with the old bastard. gave me a good laugh. And then, later on, you wrote: TMA, Doctor: When do I *not* see you? If you guys are right, that question has been answered: ever again. And I wanted to cry, because really, that is so sad.
@puroandson Ah, the sound of a hybrid arguing with itself… or is it the sound of one hand clapping? @Son: Oh well, there’s next year as mum always said whenever I was not happy with my Christmas presents. You do make me laugh. Both of you. Personally, I feel like Christmas came early! And also: a steam of consciousness? Is that like a marijuana sauna? (Sorry, that’s probably the pinot noir talking!) When I was a grad student, one of my jobs was to grade music history term papers for grammar and writing. Some were so bad that there was no way to tell them how wrong they were without just rewriting sentences for them and saying “It should go this way”. Some of the worst writing came from the English-speaking students, while the papers written by the foreign students were usually pretty correct.
@Morpho I’m not convinced that Night of the Doctor legitimized anything except the existence of the Eighth Doctor and his BF companions. His companions from the novels definitely weren’t mentioned. Those of us who don’t like the half-human Doctor idea have generally assumed that he was making it up in the movie (rather like Eleven saying that he can regenerate hundreds of times in the Sarah Jane Adventures). So as far as I can see, it’s not canon until Moffat or some future showrunner decides to specifically make it so. He has definitely done it for transgendered Time Lords, simply by showing it unequivocally in two cases now.
@whisht @puroandson I think the neural “block” rather than “wipe” explains it perfectly.
@bluesqueakpip I agree with your take on Clara as Doctor and Ashildr as companion. Ashildr asked “Where are we going?” and Clara put the TARDIS into gear. 🙂
Also: He’s connecting the ‘something I’m not getting’ feeling he has in the diner with the ‘something is missing in my memory’ feeling he’s been having. So he talks about the memories he can no longer remember and plays the tune he associates with that feeling. But it’s a feeling, not logical recognition. An association with the story, and with the emotional feeling of the music. Something he can’t quite ‘get’. Ever.
This makes sense to me, and beautifully put.
9 December 2015 at 05:20 #49124I too have been thinking about Rassilon. He comes across very differently in Hell Bent than when last we saw him. Like @bluesqueakpip, I have always assumed that both the Master and Rassilon were flung back to Gallifrey, and as we now have a regenerated Missy as well, it’s reasonable to think that it might have happened then. The whole High Council could have regenerated, for all we know; or the Master and Rassilon could have caused each other to regenerate in some sort of battle.
We know that Rassilon led/bullied the High Council into following his plan at that time. The Doctor foiled the plan, sending them hurtling back to a doomed, timelocked planet. We know that the military was no part of this plan, and that it was the General who knew about, and agreed to, the Doctor’s plan to turn Gallifrey into cup-a-soup. I have sometimes wondered what Rassilon’s view of this plan was, after the fact; his own plan involved conquering the universe, while the Doctor and the general agreed that Gallifrey should, basically, hide. This would not be a Rassilon-style plan; however, his own plan had just failed, rather spectacularly, and although he has obviously held on to power until now, it must have been an uneasy situation.
We don’t know exactly when the planet emerged from the pocket universe to go and hide at the end of time (at least, I don’t think we do). But I think it must have been after the events of Time of the Doctor. Perhaps Clara’s argument that the Doctor didn’t need to say his secret name, only that he is the Doctor, was somehow all the help they needed. Perhaps it was his regeneration that somehow helped Gallifrey back into our universe? It’s hard to explain otherwise why Rassilon would have granted the Doctor any extra lives when he clearly hates him (with good reason, from his point of view). Or was that regeneration cycle gifted without Rassilon’s permission? Perhaps it was the General communicating through the crack at Trenzalore?
In any case, regeneration, the humiliating failure of his plans, and a long time spent locked away and then hiding at the end of time, all seem to have brought him down a notch or two. He essentially humbles himself to come to the Doctor, only to have the Doctor tell him to get out of town. The soldiers refuse to shoot the hero of the Time War, and then the Doctor is able to “send for reinforcements”, suggesting that pretty high level people are taking his side. In The Last of the Time Lords, even the rest of the High Council was afraid of him.
I’m rambling, but it’s certainly easy to see why Rassilon might have decided to torture the Doctor for billions of years, given the opportunity. He wanted information and didn’t mind going about getting it in an especially ugly fashion.
9 December 2015 at 05:20 #49125Just wondering if Clara will be as clever as the Doctor and figure her way out of a fixed point death.
I have some thoughts that involve Claricles. With a TARDIS, Clara go looking for Claricles. From what we have seen, Claricles either die or go on with a normal life after helping the Doctor. If the surviving Claricles are anything like Clara Prime, they would jump at the chance to join her on the TARDIS. Just had a funny thought, what if the Claricle that told the first Doctor to take the other TARDIS was Clara. She was there to make sure he did not her TARDIS. OK, back to my theory, Clara could transfer her memories to a Claricle so part of her can live on. Another possibility is a Claricle is mortally wounded and tells Clara to make good use of her death by sending the Claricle to face the raven.
9 December 2015 at 06:25 #49127@tardigrade For me, it’s the emotional connection that was the more important thing that’s been weakened by the wipe, more than the actual memories of what happened, which do seem to be there, even if not in their original form, so even if he does fill in the gaps over time, it seems he’ll be able to live with those memories now.
@mudlark the emotional connection which bound them together so tightly has gone. This, it seemed to me, was what the Doctor is telling Clara in that last conversation in the diner. In its it own way it is as sad a resolution as if he had failed to recognise her completely, except that enough remains for the echoes of what was to be captured in a song or a story.
You’ve convinced me! And it is indeed profoundly sad.
@soundworld The parallel perhaps being that in MOTOE the Doctor took on a similar challenge of certain death within minutes unless the puzzle was solved, as Clara went on to do. Yes! Thanks for the reminder of that.
9 December 2015 at 07:04 #49128dear @morpho
noob? My mum uses that word a lot. Judging by the people she uses it about, you are not a noob at all -no way. Also, you are right, deviousness and cleverness are waay different. You have an intellectual way about you which I am envious of -I just don’t have that level of analysis.
When I watched it (now about 4 times) I was still thinking the basic stuff: how did the Tardis get to Colorado and how did he get a lift out in to the middle of that state? I think it’s pretty big. I also didn’t get just how far the city is from the ordinary gallifeyans who look really poor to me! Or maybe it’s very dry and they just look, well really tired to me. Like they work awfully hard and the high born gallifreyans are making them work very hard for them -like in the Hunger Games or something. No wonder the Dr doesn’t like the Council much!
With your question could it be that he had ‘saved’ or not saved Davros at that stage and knew Davros was coming for him and so had ‘prepared’ the confession dial which was his ritual purification?
The party was his pre-death wake with lots of ‘dudes’ thrown in! and of course the first time we saw the guitar?
Thankyou
Son of Puro
9 December 2015 at 07:36 #49129Yes I tend to think that the General and the Council were reasonably satisfied to grant this War Hero an extra set of regenerations considering their perilous position. But I can imagine Rassilon smugly saying “well if you do that, then just wait, he’ll be a big bore and a thorn in our side forever.” cue: Eurythmics ‘Thorn in My Side”
Perhaps at this point he or the General realises (and yet the General doesn’t strike me as very creative individual) that gifting the Doctor these regenerations will bring on some interstellar movement – right to the end of the universe unless, somehow, they re-positioned themselves at the end of the universe** (“give or take a few star systems”). That’s the question the Doctor doesn’t ask because the Council will seem unbearably “clever” and he can happily live without more testosterone.
** I have NO idea of the machinations behind such time jumping and pocket universe ‘science’ but I’m sure a race which can harness black holes can do anything besides suggest fashion tips. 🙂
Agreed. Your idea of what happened and how it happened, together with conclusions is spot on.
Puro Solo
9 December 2015 at 07:42 #49130your idea of a claricle being located and told to meet the raven instead is a wonderful theory. I suspect the companion will never be seen again but I have no problem thinking this is one way of fooling Trap street -except for the 3-4 zeros on the back of her neck which are not on the claricles. Still, she can go to Gallifrey and ask to be returned to Trap Street. I don’t think they’re going to refuse the raven his begetting.
9 December 2015 at 09:21 #49131@puroandson
eerm excuse me I say: I mentioned the perception filter first didn’t we boy?
😳 grovelling apologies. I must have missed the post in which you did so.
*sigh* So many posts, so little time to read them all – and I’m not a fast reader.
So it’s a case of two minds, and all that. The idea came to me independently of you or @whisht when I was watching the episode for the third time, but credit should be given where it’s due.
9 December 2015 at 09:41 #49132dear @mudlark
Mum’s on drugs -what can I say? 🙂
Want some? 🙂 Sorry, I am grovelling now. I am sure of what that word means actually. I don’t think it is good. I think saying “want some?” is very childish but even mum would giggle about that! She giggles a bit. I think they need to fiddle with the medications -too much or too little at the moment.
I know what you mean, every day there’s another 100 posts! It’s very exciting. I prefer to read this then fiddle with my new phone because its too difficult. I don’t like technology very much -its confusing but I suppose I have to move with some times -the doctor moves “from time to time” -that was a great line wasn’t it? Lots of lines I got about the 4th time! “clara who?” was the best and also sad. When you realise he’s known clara for years -all those hundreds of years of trenzalore she really has been in his life for longer than anyone. I didn’t really know this until just now! I think people want her jjust to be an ordinary companion and now it’s time to go so ‘bye bye really quick”. No! I’m glad this whole series has been about ‘saying goodbye to clara’ right from the Magician’s apprentice. One reason for waiting for so long is OK because the Christmas special is just around the corner now and we get it on the 26th -boxing day . Im no huge fan of River but I think these 2 awesome actors will be terrific working off each other. ?
What do you think Miss?
Thankyou
Son of Puro xo
9 December 2015 at 10:06 #49133I loved the episode.
Capaldi needs awards for this am slightly miffed that Clara’s death wasn’t actually the last of her and I’m a fan of hers
Now to her diner tardis. ..The diner in season 6 is totally her tardis I’m calling it
9 December 2015 at 10:38 #49134@puroandson (Son)
When you realise he’s known clara for years -all those hundreds of years of trenzalore she really has been in his life for longer than anyone
And more important to him and more thoroughly embedded in the Doctor’s mind and hearts than any previous companion. So I agree that the story of their parting needed to be equally extraordinary – and it was certainly that. For Clara herself it was bitter-sweet. From the viewers point of view it was tragic for the Doctor; less so for him since what he is left with at the end is probably little more than the wistful, nagging sense of something missing, something he can’t quite pin down – a bit like like someone waking and knowing that they have been dreaming, but unable to recall the dream itself. Maybe he will continue worrying at the problem for a while, trying to fill that Clara-shaped hole in his memory; or maybe he will give up on it and shut it away in a compartment of his mind where it will no longer bother him.
You are right, too, about the whole of this series building up to Clara’s leaving, and quite a lot of people here noticed that the Doctor seemed to have some kind of premonition of her death, or an ending of some sort, though clearly he didn’t foresee how or when.
Like you, I’m looking forward very much to seeing River and the Doctor together and I hope that the Christmas episode does them justice. I rather like River as a character – well, she’s an archaeologist, so I’m bound to identify with her, right? (I hasten to add that I bear little resemblance to her in any other respect, though).
I wouldn’t mind some of your mother’s drugs – just a very, very small dose. It might reduce my pangs of conscience about the mountain of Christmas correspondence which I have yet to start on 🙂
Oh, and if you haven’t yet looked it up, grovelling means crawling or behaving in an excessively humble way in asking forgiveness or for a favour from someone.
Mudlark
9 December 2015 at 11:01 #491359 December 2015 at 11:14 #49136BF audios, that’s the one! Sorry, it’s not really my area to be honest, I’m a TV- and webisode-only person. I suppose there’s two ways of reading it: either Moffat wanted to bring a broader Dr McGann world into canon Who, or he just wanted to give an appreciative nod to other voice actors involved and their fans. Personally, I’m of the former view, that the point was to make up for the lack of TV Who for fans where McGann is concerned. But then again, when it comes to Torchwood and SJA, my view is much like yours: didn’t happen unless it is explicitly referenced. 🙂 But I do know I’m carving my own, personal intepretation there.
Not that it matters much. I think we’re both agreed the Doctor certainly did say those words. He could, of course, be lying, but that’s not very satisfactory (he had absolutely no reason to lie and McGann is pre-rule 1). And I don’t think it’s subject to the same analysis as Smith’s line in SJA because SJA is SJA, not DW: a different show with its own rules. 🙂
@puroandson (Apprentice)
Good question! They must have left Gallifrey in Clara’s Tardis, and the Doctor was still unconscious when they dropped him off in America, so they must have gotten there fairly sharpish. But, yes, how did two people, only one of whom can fly a Tardis, get two Tardises to the desert? It’s possible that Clara could have programmed the Doctor’s Tardis to return unmanned to a known location, then make her own way in her own Tardis. Otherwise she might have been able to summon the Tardis from London as Smith does in Time of the Doctor.
The Doctor was watched over by a local who gave him a ride somewhere. I’m not sure he went straight to the diner, I think that was a different vehicle, because I got the impression he’d been travelling a while. How Clara got the local man to watch over the Doctor without him knowing about the Tardis, I don’t know.
The Gallifreyans who protected the Doctor appeared to be in the inhabitants of the drylands, since Rassilon said he had no other witnesses and they didn’t matter. I imagine it’s quite far from the city, judging by the scale of the city and the view of it the Doctor had. I think the drylands used to be farmland (hence the barn) but after the start of the time war it became barren and people there don’t have much to eat. Rassilon strikes me as a Robert Mugabe type who keeps the army and the politicians fat and happy and doesn’t care much for ordinary people.
Here’s a question: Where did Clara get the lemonade? Did she make it? What if the Doctor had asked for something else like coffee or a milkshake? What if he ordered food? (A souffle would have been fine, of course.) She got very lucky there…
9 December 2015 at 11:38 #49137dear @morpho
thank you for answering those questions!
Oh yes a soufflé, that would have been perfect but fans may have gone nutso! -how can you have a soufflé in a diner? 🙂 I was thinking of food! A cheese toastie….a bucket of hot chips…. or a root beer float. maybe they have a sonic? Does the new tardis ‘pop’ out new sonics? I know he soniced a turkey once so turning water into lemonade? Or water in to wine….good point I hadn’t thought of that….too many other questions.
Thankyou.
1 last day of school tomorrow….yee-hah
son of puro
9 December 2015 at 11:46 #49138@puroandson
how did the Tardis get to Colorado and how did he get a lift out in to the middle of that state? I
*cough*
9 December 2015 at 11:59 #49139Perhaps it was the General communicating through the crack at
Trenzalore?
It was definitely Ken Bones doing the voice-over. So either ‘keep hiding’ is The General’s plan, or he took the Doctor’s and Clara’s flat refusal to say his name as an instruction from the Doctor to keep hiding.
[later addition]
The idea that Rassillon might see the Doctor as his rival for control of Gallifrey – because The General is following the Doctor’s orders over his – explains why Rassillon chose to torture the Doctor into revealing the nature of the hybrid.
If you ask someone to tell you the answer, they retain power. You don’t know, they do. That, for President Rassillon is dangerous, because the person he’s asking is a war hero former President with his own power base. The army are following the Doctor’s plan, successfully, but Rassilon’s own plan was defeated by the Doctor and the Master.
But if you torture them to get the information, them giving it to you is their defeat. You’ve broken them.
Which would be why the Doctor knew that to give in was to lose.
9 December 2015 at 13:09 #49142We don’t know exactly when the planet emerged from the pocket universe to go and hide at the end of time (at least, I don’t think we do). But I think it must have been after the events of Time of the Doctor.
Indeed, in Time of the Doctor Gallifrey was still in the pocket universe trying to find a way back in via the universe’s weakest point. We have seen another example of a telepathic creature getting from a pocket universe to our universe in Hide. The other thing about this is that, during the time war, Rassilon and the General were not I think in the same city: the General was in Arcadia, Gallifrey’s second city, and, war being war, the General would have had some degree of autonomy (like you say, it’s him that gives the order to cup-a-soupise Gallifrey, without Rassilon’s authority).
Perhaps it was the General communicating through the crack at Trenzalore?
Yes, I think this is right. It sounds like him whispering ‘Doctor who?’ through the crack.
I’m rambling, but it’s certainly easy to see why Rassilon might have decided to torture the Doctor for billions of years, given the opportunity.
This is the only thing I have a different take on. Rassilon didn’t decide iirc to torture the Doctor for billions of years. The plan was for the Doctor to confess and be released in a matter of days. At worst, the Doctor would die in the dial: that was the risk Rassilon was willing to take. I don’t think Rassilon had anticipated that the Doctor would find a way to stay in there that long, choose to do so, or use it as a very slow escape route.
9 December 2015 at 13:44 #49146First of all… brilliant episode and season!
Also the insightful critiques and analysis by all you fans. Despite owning The Scarf (hand-crocheted by a friend’s mom in the early 80s) and a hat that might go with it, and being able, since the 80s, to say “exterminate!” with the proper accent, I’m a bit of a Newvian, as I couldn’t really watch the series regularly until Capaldi.
So I may be missing some of the tangled web and references (in this story) to the Doctor’s entire timeline.
While I absolutely hated “continued next week” at the end of a show back in the 60s (Disney, looking at you), I love the way this series reads like a comic book with each episode continuing into the next in a total story arc.
Actually loved the wrap-up of Clara’s timeline…er…tangled time web. The two Stuck-In-Their-Respective-Weird-Ordinary-Shapes tardises passing each other in space was hilarious, the sort of weird quirky hilarious I’ve come to expect of Moffat. I love the idea that Clara, after travelling with a time lord, has sort of become one… The Doctor’s story has never been linear, he loops and tangles all over time and space, and now Clara is both eternal and caught between one heartbeat and the next.
And he literally went to the ends of the universe for her.
So many films and so much YA literature depends on the Almighty Romance. I am at the point in my own timeline of not giving a (bleep, expletive deleted, conversing like a mariner, using literary license) about romance. I simply LOVE the relationship between the Doctor and the Companion, and that it might cause one to risk one’s life, to risk worlds, to tangle time, to risk the stability of the entire universe itself, to make one go to the ends of the universe to save one person. it is a love deeper and greater than mere romance or the local, temporal hormone drives of humans.
I wonder where they filmed “Nevada”. Maybe a CG wild west was easier than actually going there. Also nobody here drives… whatever that “truck” was. Looks like a mutant Landrover. Trucks are huge, beat up, and can carry an entire cow in the bed. Usually named Chevy or Ford. Sometimes Ram. See also Dodge. (both are a clue as to why you should get out of the way). Also missed the dead deer platform often found on the rear… Definitely needed more dents and rust. And a 150 is small. A 350 is more like it. Come on guys, surely someone in the UK has a real truck.
Love the bits of paint falling off the tardis at the end. That piece of the timeline is done, a New Adventure awaits.
Now dear Whovians…
A. What’s a Claricle?
B. Could Clara’s running around the universe saving the Doctor (eh, what episode was that from, where she’s doing that at the beginning…) be when she’s between one heartbeat and the last?
C. Why does she tell the Gallifreyans “You are hated.” Wha’d I miss? OK, time wars and things and stuffs but…?????
I just love how this whole set of stories plays with time, how everything seems to loop and twist back on itself.
9 December 2015 at 14:04 #49147@puroandson
Diners… 8)
a sampling from a Pennsylvania diner…
pierogi-style omelette with garlic mashed potatoes, onions and American cheese. served with homefries, your choice of bacon, ham, or sausage and your choice of toast… bacon, burgers, fries (the chunky old fashioned kind), hash browns, pancakes (blueberries, chocolate chips, or maple syrup), bacon, eggs and toast, eggs and toast homefries choice of bacon sausage or ham, bacon, french toast, create your own omelettte (yes, actually spelled that way on a menu), salsa and deep fried jalapeño bottle caps, served with homefries…omelette with loads of grilled mushrooms and provolone, served with homefries (with grilled mushrooms upon request), your choice of bacon, ham, or sausage and your choice of toast… steak & eggs, served with homefries and your choice of toast… oatmeal with brown sugar and raisins… 2 slices of bread with one egg nestled in the center of each slice, grilled to perfection. served with choice of bacon, ham, or sausage and homefries…
Chips here are crunchy and prepackaged. You have to go to a seafood restaurant to find fish. 😛
Not a chance of anything healthy…. 😯
You might find something resembling a vegetable for lunch or dinner…
…deep fried pretzels served with choice of Grey Poupon® bistro sauce, nacho cheese sauce, cream cheese & chives, cream cheese frosting or chocolate sauce… turkey or roast beef open-faced sandwich on garlic toast, served with mashed potatoes, gravy and grilled vegetables…
Potatoes count as a vegetable.
http://www.donnas-diner.com/Donnas-Diner-Lunch-Dinner.htm
Now, if I could only figure out how to do emoticons…
oh, wait, there’s a HELP page…
😉
9 December 2015 at 14:11 #49148ack, that went well…
😯
9 December 2015 at 14:12 #49149trying the Sonic Sunglasses again…
😎
9 December 2015 at 14:31 #49150@puroandson
Son of Puro is officially my favorite blogger here… excellent posts and things and stuffs!
(parenting done right!)
9 December 2015 at 15:07 #49151I wonder where they filmed “Nevada”. Maybe a CG wild west was easier than actually going there. Also nobody here drives… whatever that “truck” was. Looks like a mutant Landrover. Trucks are huge, beat up, and can carry an entire cow in the bed. Usually named Chevy or Ford. Sometimes Ram. See also Dodge. (both are a clue as to why you should get out of the way). Also missed the dead deer platform often found on the rear… Definitely needed more dents and rust. And a 150 is small. A 350 is more like it. Come on guys, surely someone in the UK has a real truck.
It looked like a Ford Bronco. Late ’70 – early ’80s vintage I think. They are a full size SUV type vehicle that has a removable rear roof section. Built on the F-150 platform.
The native looking fellow that was with the Doctor when he woke up was driving an old sedan so there might have been a different person who eventually drove the Doctor to the diner. I agree that it appears the Doctor may have been wandering about for some time. Would like to know more about that part of the story….
Did it seem like the two Tardis(s) (plural?) Occupied the same location? The blue tardis wasn’t visible when he drove up to the diner so it probably wasn’t out front. When the diner vanished, did the Doctor turn around to see the blue tardis? If so, then it could have been in the “kitchen” (Control room of Clara’s tardis). Can one tardis be inside another? If so, that would explain how she moved it from England.
9 December 2015 at 16:28 #49154I wonder where they filmed “Nevada”.
Fuertaventura, in the Canary Isles. I’ve been there. It is semi-arid(1) much like Nevada is.
Can one tardis be inside another?
Yep – and since the Clara tribute was still on it, we can deduce that it was carried to Nevada, rather then went under its own steam.
(1) Correct technical term. Trust a geographer.
9 December 2015 at 16:47 #49155This is fun
9 December 2015 at 16:52 #49156we can deduce that it was carried to Nevada
Mind you, a roadside diner might have looked a trifle conspicuous on a London street (it was a very narrow pavement, as I recall) when it arrived to pick it up…
Wait! It was…invisible! Of course.
Hold on! Can you make it invisible if the chameleon circuit is not functioning?
So many difficult questions…obviously time for a cup of tea, a Bex, and a good lie down.
<last line an Australian joke, only meaningful to those over the age of 50. Or 60.>
9 December 2015 at 16:58 #49157To be fair, we don’t know exactly when Ashildr broke the Tardis…. 😀
9 December 2015 at 17:08 #49158@mudlark Many years ago, I knew a man who had an undergraduate degree in archaeology. This man was so excited when Raiders of the Lost Ark came out that we had to line up on opening night to see it (I can remember standing outside for about an hour). His view was along the lines of “Finally, some cred for archaeologists!”
@Morpho Not that it matters much. It will matter if the showrunner decides it does! 🙂 I think the loophole is in the context and manner in which he said it: as I recall, it was said off the cuff to someone he didn’t know, at a time when he was trying to distract someone in some way. So some people allow that it could have been one of the Doctor’s typically quirky distracting remarks. Not necessarily truth.
You’re right of course that Rassilon didn’t know the Doctor would choose the billions of years option. That wasn’t really central to my point, which was more that Rassilon wouldn’t object to seeing the Doctor tortured a bit. He must have guessed at least that the Doctor wouldn’t give up easily!
@bluesqueakpip It was definitely Ken Bones doing the voice-over. Cool, I didn’t know this.
9 December 2015 at 17:10 #49159Yep – and since the Clara tribute was still on it, we can deduce that it was carried to Nevada, rather then went under its own steam.
Ah yes! Well deduced!
9 December 2015 at 17:13 #49160The mystery of how the Tardis got to Nevada…solved!
9 December 2015 at 17:13 #49161Perhaps. Like I said, I hope, if it is going to be addressed (and it looks to be) it’s done so in a more comprehensive manner than “Nah mate, he was talking crap.” 😀
Rassilon wouldn’t object to seeing the Doctor tortured a bit. He must have guessed at least that the Doctor wouldn’t give up easily!
Oh yeah, and, if the Doctor didn’t give up, it could have killed him, and Rassilon was apparently fine with that. What a douche!
Do you think all confession dials have killer elements in them like the Veil? Seems a kind of pointless feature for something used by dying time lords. I suspect some tinkering…
9 December 2015 at 17:13 #49162@swordwhale A 350 is more like it. 🙂 I live in the middle (almost literally) of the city, and some people insist on driving these big Fords around and parking them in parking spaces where they don’t fit, and so on. I can never understand why this is, as the weekend warriors that live around here wouldn’t actually need such a big truck, we’re pretty far from the farm!
I loved the diner menu, an pyrohy-style omelette sounds cool. Is that like egg in a dumpling? Potatoes are definitely a vegetable in our house. Lots of vitamin c and potassium in a potato! In Vancouver, I grew up calling fries “chips”, English style, but that has changed now, except for “fish and chips” which is still not “fish and fries”. 🙂 My husband was in San Antonio recently on business, and he brought back some local cheesy dipping sauce for our son, who loves very spicy foods (we all love good Mexican and its hard to find here). My son said it “tasted like America”. 🙂
Sorry, back on topic. I think the diner-TARDIS must have only just gotten stuck. They would have had no reason to make it look like a diner when picking up the Doctor’s TARDIS in London, so they must have done that when they landed it in Nevada to wait for the Doctor. I’m trying not to wonder about the logic of why they would have chosen to drop him off in Nevada in the first place, rather than just taking him to where the TARDIS already was. Unless they thought it was safer for him that way, I suppose.
9 December 2015 at 17:16 #49163@morpho I’m loving the names we’re calling Rassilon in here. First he was an old bastard, now he’s a douche. Don’t hold back, anyone. 🙂
9 December 2015 at 17:25 #49164And I’m pretty sure he stole his gauntlet off Davros, an old man confined to a wheelchair, the blighter!
9 December 2015 at 17:30 #49165Can’t get that link to go anywhere….
9 December 2015 at 17:31 #49166how cool would it have been if the man who initially ‘looked after’ the doctor in the desert was Canton Delaware 3rd or maybe the 4th….? 😉
it would have been a further, secure tie up with that whole impossible astronaut diner setting. speaking of which, @blenkinsopthebrave – invisibility does indeed work with a broken chameleon circuit as that very thing occurs in the aforementioned episode. in the oval office no less. 🙂@swordwhale – ‘donna’s diner’, i see what you’ve done there. 😉
9 December 2015 at 17:57 #49167Hmm. That’s strange. It worked on my iPad, but not on my laptop. Try this one instead:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03bc5kw
<of course, it sort of undercuts the attempt at humour when forced to reload links. Oh well…>
9 December 2015 at 18:07 #49168So Raiders of the Lost Ark supplies cred for archaeologists 😯
Well, if I had taken Indiana Jones or River for role models*, my career would certainly have taken a very different course 🙂
* I would have needed a Tardis or a vortex manipulator to do so, or else uncanny foresight, but that is a minor detail.
9 December 2015 at 18:13 #49169It’s a conspiracy!
9 December 2015 at 19:11 #49171I just posted this over on Doctor Who TV, and thought I’d bring it here too — if it’s repeating stuff others have already posted here, apologies, since I have no time to catch up on the latest right now —
But really, I am an idiot.
@Rainbow Kidneys loves “Sleep No More” Good grief. You’re right about the basic problem. I just put something together for myself, thanks to some of the comments I’ve read here, so much thanks for the explosion of creative thinking going on here over the ending.
I didn’t retain it that the Doctor shoots the General *because the general said he wouldn’t allow Clara to leave the room*. Rainbow Kidneys, below is quite right: that was a cruel and cowardly act — to shoot the unarmed and repentant ally because he was acting as an obstacle to the rescue of Clara, not “for no reason.” But the Doctor in his right mind would use his real weapons — words. Not execution. Not murder. Meantime he just throws Rassilon, the actual leader of the cabal off “his planet”, tossed away like garbage.
Clara is horrified by what he just did; Ohila tells him he’s betrayed his principles and does so with great conviction and disgust; and he himself admits he’s “gone too far”.
Then the neural blocker works against him instead of Clara as “the luck of the draw”, and as he passes out from it, he says to her (from memory, no time to re-watch), “Never cruel or cowardly; if you are, always make amends.”
He doesn’t need to tell her not to be cruel or cowardly; she’s learned that, and he knows it. The important part is *making amends* — that HE make amends. *That’s* what’s so important to tell her! My rough translation: “Forgive me for this — *I’ve* been cruel and cowardly, and failed you and so many others. This is the way I’ve found to make amends for all of it — giving up every last vestige of you.”
Ohila’s presence is not a casual inclusion just for the hell of it; she’s acting as a true friend, whether he likes it or not. She’s there to point to out to him and condemn his crimes of excess, his Doctor Victorious moments, his War Doctor actions. He needs to hear her, and hear Clara — and figure out what he needs to do to show that he accepts this judgment, and not just by saying sorry.
How much of any of this he actually does remember in the closing diner scene is debatable, of course. But the enormity of the gesture — finally, he put his own principles ahead of his obsession with Clara and instead of running, paid his true penance, which *isn’t* about smashing down a diamond wall with his bare hands after all. That was self-punishment. This is realizing how far he’s let his obsession drive him from his own rules, and doing something — a real something, a big something — about it. And letting Clara know that’s what he’s doing.
Because “people like us — we should *say* things to each other . . . ”
Now I have to go — I have some amends of my own to make this morning.
9 December 2015 at 19:31 #49172@pendant
Yep – and since the Clara tribute was still on it, we can deduce that it was carried to Nevada, rather then went under its own steam.
Agreed. Well deduced.
Taking that thought a bit further….I presume Clara must have been very moved to see the tribute left on the outside of the tardis. She no doubt would have known exactly who did it. I wonder if Ashildr looked on with envy since she would never know what it feels like to be memorialized.
9 December 2015 at 20:08 #49175@puroandson
hello and welcome to you from the friendly hybrid. Glad you loved it too -a lot of people did. We’re one of them.
Thank you for the welcome. I was exposed to Doctor Who via BBC America a few seasons ago right about the time that Clara became a regular on the show. I soon found a way to watch all the episodes beginning with Rose and I’ve been a fan ever since. Sometime around the second half of Smith’s last season….the writing started to become a little bit complicated for the casual enthusiast so I searched for a forum to help explain thing to me. 🙂 Thank goodness I found this forum. You guys are great! If I am not mistaken, this forum may be the first in history that allows a fan of any regular television series to ‘continue the story’ in such a way as only the internet can allow. I think it’s quite revolutionary that the writers are able to craft a story with space between the lines for a fan forum to fill in the blanks. I am sure that current technology (DVR-digital video recorders) at home plays a big part because the fans can now go back an re-watch at will and even freeze frame with HD clarity. Something that fans of the earlier series certainly were not able to do.
Even so, I still prefer to watch each new episode in the classic way…..start to finish, without pausing or re-winding. Then when it’s over I can choose to check this forum in hopes it may answer some questions or expose new avenues that I may have missed. After reading here…I then might re-watch the episode. Because of this group here….the re-watch almost always is an improvement compared to my original viewing.
Thank you all for this community. For me, you guys are part of what makes it so enjoyable to watch Doctor Who.
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