In the Forest of the Night

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  • #34218
    Doctorwholover @doctorwholover

    I didn’t quite get this episode. I prefer the other peter capaldi episodes I found this one odd and weird

    #34220
    Spider @spider

    Hi @commishkc sorry to hear you aren’t enjoying this season.  I do agree a little bit about the social media comments aren’t needed, I also am not a huge fan of having too many kids in episodes (and they haven’t been in ALL the episodes) but personally I think in this latest episode it works well (the kids) as being something quite different.

    I think we have got a grumpy Doctor and I think there have been far more than just ‘flashes’ of this, it’s pretty much there all the time – although having said that, I don’t want him to be grumpy all the time because it pushes the character too far away from the audience – which for me I felt was happening a bit until the Mummy episode (still I think for me my favourite this season).

    As to Clara. If this was last season I would have agreed with you, I was getting very tired of her during that run, but this season for me it has been a completely turn around with the character. I will admit the lying is getting a bit grating but it fits with the ‘being addicted to something and lying in order to get what you want’. As others have said, I have a feeling there is a very big fall waiting for Clara because of this!

    Longest series yet? Um, what? You lost me there.

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #34221
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @brewski

    Yes, he did mention 2016. I wondered about that too.

    I had another thought about it, but I might post it on the Trailers thread, in case it is a bit spoilery.

    #34222
    Brewski @brewski

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Yes, he did mention 2016. I wondered about that too. Might it also mean that there is a possibility that we might re-experience those two years somehow?

    Could be. There have been two mentions of Earth’s future that maybe “won’t be”. And I have had an odd feeling like none of these things have been “really” happening.

    More mentions of the round things, too. Lots of circles here.

    Like we keep getting glimpses of being inside a Tardis in the grip of a Dream Lord….

    #34223
    commishkc @commishkc

    @spider.  Sorry, was getting a bunch of stuff of my chest right away..lol.  True that there have not been kids in every episode this season for the most part, but every time there is one it sends me back to Nightmare in Silver.  To me there was no reason to have those kids involved.  The Doctor just randomly takes them on an adventure?  I just don’t get it.

    The kids from this episode were disrespectful, arrogant and desensitized to everything that was going on.  The main girl (Maebh) was a great character, but I didn’t feel like we needed the rest, the flashbacks of them, Mr. Pink…..  We could have had a great episode without all of that.  I half expected to see them all in the Tardis at the end sipping hot coco and singing songs or something.

    True, he has been grumpy quite a bit, and I love it, but then he tries to appease Clara.  I don’t know.  Maybe I am just not feeling the whole Clara thing this season. We will see what happens.

    My friend told me to watch the finale and then make a final decision.  Which I will do, but I have my doubts.

    I made a mistake about the longest season.  I was so used to only getting 6-8 episodes an then nothing for 2-4 months that it had become habit, so I was excited when I first saw that we were getting 12 straight.  Brain miscue.

    #34224
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @craig, @fatmaninabox, @phaseshift

    The post above needs to be edited to remove the spoilers that mention the trailer.

    #34225
    Whisht @whisht

    I’ll throw my only-seen-it-once opinion on Danny & Clara into the mix just… well just because!

    There’s probably a whole blog in Danny and Clara’s relationship (it’d also be catnip to the haters! 😈 ) but I think of Danny as being an ex-soldier going out with someone who is also doing dangerous and exciting things for the benefit of others.
    He’s like a spouse to someone in the services (who was in the services themselves) – he knows what its like, he’s supportive. I don’t get that he’s trying to get Clara ‘out’. He’s more giving her support should she find that she’s been pushed too far and a heads-up that this could happen.

    To be honest, he’s a bit of “The Impossible Boyfriend” in that he seems to understand her so well, yet be completely forgiving of her lying. He’s handsome, brave, committed to his charges, able to stand up to someone who has stared down monsters…. almost perfect if it wasn’t for a mystery giving him depth [aww…. sigh].

    But does he see that she’s become addicted to the thrills at the expense of her responsibilities and personal values (the lying)? If he does he’ll want to get her out of the thrill-seeking, as otherwise she’ll put herself and others in danger.

    One more hit…. [ahem]

    As for this particular episode’s “he’s responsible/ he’s irresponsible” I think that it may be how the episode came out (I won’t say writing because as a mere watcher, I can’t tease out the writing from the directing from the acting from the…). He was required to save Clara, kids were required to be saved, running around was also required – I think he kinda ‘had’ to leave safety for the sake of the episode (even though it strangely didn’t catch fire in terms of tension).

    Blimey – wrote waaaay more than intended! Its just that I’ve been lurking and really enjoying the ethics conversations as well as the relationship ones (maybe more than watching the show at times!).

    Anyway, I think I’ll stick to Music as I’m probably better at that than writing or reltionshipping!

    🙂

    #34228
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    Hi, I’m new here and this is my first post, so I hope I say something that contributes to the discussion. I have read this thread, but haven’t had a chance to read all of the previous ones, so if I repeat things that have been brought up in those, I apologise. I’m not sure how to use the @thing, but I will try my best to acknowledge people where I can.

    I wasn’t sure about this series, but having been introduced to Doctor Who as a child in the 70’s, I am willing to ‘have faith’, as they say. I think the actors are doing a great job. Interesting season.

    In previous Moffatt seasons there are the episodes and what happens in them and then there is the overall season arc that is something that you occasionally get reminded of just so you don’t forget it’s there,  at least for me that has been the case. But to me, it seems this season seems to be mostly about the arc. I guess it’s why I find it interesting.  I know that Moffatt doesn’t write every episode, and there are some very unhappy fans out there,  but he is the show-runner, and I genuinely like what he has brought to the series. (Just wish to add that Russell T Davies was pretty amazing too)

    I found the Robin Hood episode unsatisfying the first time I saw it. Robin Hood, whether or not he was possibly based on some unreal and/or distorted historical character, is so mythical to us now that it seems the Doctor is right to say that he never existed – at least it is such as if  he never existed. (Robin Hood is largely a romantic character these days, perhaps I’m wrong). But the second time I watched it the thing that struck me was at the end, the Doctor says to Clara that he has left Robin Hood a gift -it is  Marion. This was the girl who at the beginning of the story was the daughter of a peasant farmer, murdered by the Sheriff, and then forced into servitude by him. Until the doctor meets her. She is now, suddenly, Maid Marion, the true love of Robin Hood. (Clara is a fan of the story and Marion in particular – I thought.) I got the sense that the Doctor had had a hand in Maid Marion’s appearance at the end and he knows there is something not right. He was kind of aware of that in Deep Breath, but as he was still regenerating and had only a sense of familiarity to what was happening. It was not just this episode that jarred for me, but also “Kill the Moon” and “The Forest of the Night”. Too fantastical to be quite right – thanks PhileasF, Mudlark and Purofilion  (so now I will try the @-thing)

    @mudlark – I agree, that there have been fairytale references and that fairytales, in their original form, are a lot darker than they are presented to modern audiences. So there some well-lit episodes that you would think should be dark – Robin Hood (at least the Doctor thinks so …) and ‘In the Forest of the Night’ – do break with this very established ( if somewhat forgotten in these times) traditions.

    @phileasf – your suggestion that there is a “land of fiction” happening here makes a lot of sense to me – at least in my trying to make sense of what’s going on. Moon-dragon, classic fantasy – well, dragons are, and it was rather dragon-like. Also, not quit – but close enough – Red Riding Hood (got the idea – wolf … little girl in a red jacket…with a hood.)

    @Purofilion – again, making sense – perhaps Clara is creating her own ‘perfect world’. She does seem to be trying to do something, doesn’t she. You said that Clara knows literature, not science, true. So we have some rather ‘wonky’ science episodes, as people have noticed. Was it ever really possible that that a golden arrow could have been enough to assist what, frankly, was an interstellar space ship? (I know it blew up, but really?) Also, Moon-dragons – beautiful, but not sure they’re real. Now,  Maebh, that even Danny forgot, but whom can make a wish that brings her sister back. (I think I’m not crediting someone with thinking of this first, sorry)

    I want to say more and not finish on what sounds like a negative Danny note, but it’s very late for me and I have to go to bed. I hope to pick this up tomorrow.

    #34229
    Whisht @whisht

    oh – btw,

    In Flatline the Doctor says that he’s a bit embarrassed that this species has powers over dimensions and that’s very much the Time Lords’ ‘thing’.

    In the Forest of the Night, we have a power over Time (fast-growing and ‘decaying’ trees).

    Its almost as if the powers of the Time Lords are being called to attention.
    Now, I don’t think that literally this will be part of the arc, but maybe thematically..?

    (oops I said that I don’t do “Writing” and here I go trying it on!)

    #34231
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @whogirl I agree with you. Something I can’t put my finger on is missing. PC is doing a great job, good acting skills…. JCs acting was also quite subtle (as in natural/good).

    I don’t know why but I don’t have the need to guess along as much. It’s just sitting and waiting what they are going to present us with – no big clues to mole over – no nothing to decipher. The hints they do give are as obvious as “squabbling like an old married couple” (Something that’s not really confirmed but quite obvious.)  or we don’t get all the needed information to guess ahead of the broadcast.

    If we had known for example that the Doctor was the Arcitect or anything pointing in that direction we would have tried to figure out what the Doctor would have wanted from a bank, why he didn’t just use the TARDIS… Just misleading and no real clues somehow.

    And so many episods are focused on Clara and Danny at least in parts. Also- the trailer for this episode has been quite misleading.

    #34234
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave – ‘Tis done 😉

    #34243
    Strax @strax

    This episode just felt ..  Blah…  All of those little boys..   This year has been one of the most fun I’ve watched.  I’ve always enjoyed grumpy old men as the main character.   Things just seem funnier.

    Matt smith grew too washy washy for my old bones.  He’s for the kids and ladies.  Capaldi is for those of us who answer the door to a trick or treat kid with a trick.    *laugh*

    The trailer for this episode was so misleading.  It was sooo slow and boring, I was about to blast my remote through the tv, before kindly handing it to my wife so she could watch her show.   My temper seems to get the best of me, sorry.  I’m a warrior race you know.

    #34244
    Oblique @oblique

     

    Magical?

    Wasn’t it – all those  fake trees, some cheaper effects, ( taxi, bollard, LION…. )

    So: girl vanishes, sister dreams up global forest overnight, London, Bigger on the inside (yeah whatever) Clara – Danny,  walk, walk, walk, the TARDIS, flamethrowers, tree with plot exposition, 2 wolves and a tiger… handy fence with huge gaps between the rails, OP TARDIS world saved by trees, missing sister returns.

    More bad science,

    and a really busy TARDIS.

    I propose a Tesco Express  and a little coffee concession. Nothing is surprising anymore, after all. We love the mundane, especially in our space/soap operas.

    Did somebody say Coronation Street?

    Great to see the  youngsters getting a look in, helps balance the teenager monopoly  of previous weeks that. If only the budget could have stretched to accommodate a full class of children, with more of those amusing one liners… This lack of  put me in mind of a crowd scene from a Peter Davidson story called  Snakedance. Ah, those were the days…

    But isn’t it lovely, if you squint  a bit it really looks like this year’s  Christmas Special  minus Matt in his Dickensian outfit, and the snow -of course.  I’m sure Coal Hill Skool will be back en-masse for the extravaganza in which the team defeat the usual typical seasonal menace using the energy stored in Coal Hill School which isn’t really a school, its a stone space ship and thereby bringing into being the reality of the Doctor Who Experience

    Hurrah!

    Oblique

    #34245
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    maybe because i was tired, hungover, and had just read my little boy “the giving tree” but i thought the episode was wonderful, and strangely emotional. in fact i am loving the series, especially the wheels within wheels-iness of it and the thematic resonances between episodes. particularly interesting this time was:

    (1) danny’s wanting to die comment, echoing the ‘banksy’ character last week’s attempt to kill himself on the train, and the missy / afterlife  theme – maybe wanting to die is how you avoid being swept up into the nether sphere … cf the doctor’s self hatred…

    (2) some good bonkerising here on the fairy tale / myth themes, but again I am picking up some religious vibes – the “we were here before you and will be here long after you” speech from the earth spirit thingies struck me as classic old testament God is eternal, and that was before i thought about the book of jonah, where a gourd springs up overnight to protect jonah from the sun (!!)  and then i got to thinking about how jonah is sent to save the people of nineveh but is troubled about it – its never made clear whether he is worried because they won’t repent and be saved or because they will and they don’t deserve to be, or because if they repent they won’t believe him that they were about to be destroyed – anyway you get the point…

    (3) is it all in clara’s head – well i think this was planted in our minds by moffy because of the is it all in mauve’s head thing and the call back to Fear Her

    (4) the stories we tell ourselves and the way they become real – cf Listen, fairytales, religious stories, the afterlife … is it all about belief – do those who make it to the nether sphere have to believe there is an afterlife

    (5) subversion of the moonraker trope, whereby danny and clara and the kids do not go off to some new colony to repopulate the human race

    (6) what surprised missy? that the doctor didn’t destroy the forest thereby condemning the earth to destruction, or clara’s speech which wittingly or unwittingly forced back into the tardis when he had his moment of revelation

    (7) how come missy bears an uncanny resemblance to my boss? which really is a thing

    (8) no possible justification for this, but i have felt all along that the nether sphere is in a tardis, tho whether it is the doctor’s, the master’s or a n other time lord’s i know not, but if i had to choose i would say a n other ‘s tardis inside the doctor’s tardis and disguised as the bookcase, cos there is something very odd about that bookcase…

    (9) oh and i’m back 🙂

    #34246
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    Hi, I would like to apologise if this has all been said before, I will try to catch up as much as I can.

    I wanted to say that I didn’t want to end on a negative note about Danny in my previous post because I think his character is interesting – if ‘I’m kind of confused about him’ qualifies him as being interesting – apparently it does for me. He seems to have appeared in this season as three different characters – Danny Pink , Orson Pink and Rupert Pink – what’s going on there? Also, it was the Doctor who was the one who showed Orson to Clara and then later said that Orson and Danny didn’t look anything alike (Clara and I confused together).  Just how was it that they ended up at the orphanage where Rupert was? That’s right, the Doctor had a hand in it – or perhaps it was Clara’s hand(s). I wonder if this goes back to the Doctor being aware there’s something funny going on.

    I also thought the way that Danny interacts with the Doctor when he meets him in the TARDIS in ‘The Caretaker’ as rather surprising. He very quickly realizes that the Doctor knows he is there and stops the farce. Then, to me at least, he came off as rather aggressive towards the Doctor, the whole ‘you’re an officer and I’m just the foot soldier who carries out your orders’ speech, came out of nowhere for me.  I can understand (from the perspective of someone who doesn’t know how it really is) that he had been a soldier in the past and so this past life can be a complicated issue for someone who has seen action, but how could he have possibly known the Doctor’s history and felt justified at being angry towards him? To me, it seemed as if he deliberately goaded the Doctor into throwing him off the TARDIS just so he could say to Clara ‘Now you can see him for who he really is’ – or words to that effect.

    @Margaret-Blaine – I agree that there does seem to be contradictions in Danny’s character. Along with what you said I would add – Why start a cadet group at Coal Hill if you want to leave your previous life behind?

    – I also agree with your ‘Doctor-dad’ theory – your point about him parking the TARDIS in Clara’s bedroom on the night of her first date with Danny does really make it clear that he is intervening on some level. But it also made me think about the relationship between the Doctor and Clara. Who’s watching out for who (not a pun – no, really).

    On a completely unrelated note – am I wrong or did one of the kids ask where the round things where when s/he entered the TARDIS in this episode? Maybe wrong, I haven’t done my second watch.

    #34249
    Anonymous @

    @melloyello I’m sorry but it just isn’t cricket writing a ‘personal message’ being incredibly rude and saying ‘I don’t like or read your posts’. It had to be said on the boards. Be nice please -we have. Kindest, purofilion

    #34250
    Anonymous @

    @papermoon you’re right there were the questions about the round things… Welcome. Are you new? Liked your post and understood how you think the Dr goaded Clara. Good point. I wonder about him setting up a cadet ‘play’ at school? Perhaps he values the …well…values that the army teaches? he sees obedience and general fitness being a good thing (obedience in the right places -teachers….well, teachers only maybe?!)

    @bobbyfat welcome back!  Good ideas with Jonah..A theologian…?

    #34251
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    Because she is a junkie and she is afraid Danny will take her junk away.

    I think that’s the biggest red herring we’ve been handed all series. Clara is, and always has been a liar – when she needs to be. But if she’s a TARDIS junkie, then she’s got the two of the best enablers in the galaxy as her Significant Others. Plus, what’s Danny going to do? HOW is he going to stop her? Tie her up? That tends to be frowned upon…

    I think we got handed the ‘addiction’ red herring because it gives us an immediately plausible reason why Clara might be so very, very keen on making sure people who might realistically talk to her Blackpool family, including family-friends-from-London and boyfriends, don’t know that she’s a time traveller. To the extent of taking the Maitland kids along on a trip so they keep their little mouths shut, producing the Doctor as her ‘boyfriend’ (in case Mr Maitland has mentioned said boyfriend?), and telling Danny that she’s no longer travelling with the Doctor and hasn’t seen him for months…

    But when it’s people who’ve never met and are never likely to meet her Dad, she couldn’t care less. In fact, she suddenly reverts to bluntly truthful.

    Well, except when the blunt truth is ‘you’re probably going to die’. 😉

    #34252
    Bobbyfat @bobbyfat

    @purofilion nice to be back, finally got to wrestle the mac away from the mrs… i’m not a theologian, more a picker upper of unconsidered trifles… for some reason the jonah story is one that stuck in my mind from an early age, i think cos my dad used to sing “it aint necessarily so”, years later i became interested in whale and dolphin conservation which led to reading books about dolphin behaviour and real life stories of dolphins rescuing people, which led me back to reading jonah… anyway it all came back to me after watching the episode…

     

    #34253
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @papermoon

    how could he have possibly known the Doctor’s history and felt justified at being angry towards him?

    Exactly. Danny’s behaviour in In The Forest of The Night is perfectly consistent – IF he thinks the Doctor is dangerous. So dangerous that you can’t possibly leave Maebh with him, can’t let Clara collect Maebh (because she doesn’t know how dangerous the Doctor is), can’t keep the kids in the TARDIS a second longer than you have to, and certainly don’t want them to go on a trip with him…

    … and yet, can’t tell Clara why he thinks that. Has to stop Clara making a definite break with the Doctor.

    And the Doctor keeps insisting he’s not really a Maths teacher…

    #34256
    Whisht @whisht

    If Danny IS a PE teacher, and Clara IS really old….

    what else that the Doctor has asserted has seemed incongruous this series (outside of Robin – and I don’t think he’s had any problems with the “stoopid-science”)? [apologies my brain’s a blank]

    and what bonkerising would we make of just these elements?

    #34259
    janetteB @janetteb

    Having just rewatched this episode again with the suggestion in the back of my mind, (sorry I have forgotten who first suggested that) that everything this series is an invention of Clara’s I must say Danny does appear to be her perfect SO So perfect that, as the Doctor points out, he isn’t entirely believable.

    @whisht I like that suggestion. Maybe the Doctor is seeing things we aren’t and when he comments upon Clara’s age perhaps it is Missy’s age he is remarking upon. I dismissed it as a red herring but Clara is continually called Miss Oswald or simply Miss by her students, so Missy does apply. Also I put my money (figuratively speaking) on Missy being a time lord or a new villian and not Clara and I am always wrong. 🙂

    I could probably squeeze the Missy as Clara into my favourite theory, that Clara has a implanted, sleeper personality if I try really, really hard. Or maybe there is a miniaturised Missy hidden in Clara’s brain. Doesn’t quite fit with the ipad though. Need to do a lot more head scratching over that idea.

    Also welcome back @bobbyfat and welcome to @papermoon

    Cheers

    Janette

    #34260
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Out of interest, the Audience Appreciation Index for this episode came in at a healthy 83 (good) and the overnights at 5.03 million.

    Which suggests that while it’s a divisive episode for keen fans, the general audience rather liked it. 😉

    #34261
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @strax    While I didn’t share your boredom with the episode, I really liked your post. I too enjoy grumpy old men!

    @bobbyfat   do those who make it to the nether sphere have to believe there is an afterlife     Interesting idea. Half faced man certainly believed in the promised land.

    how come missy bears an uncanny resemblance to my boss?      Because you are really Seb?   🙂

    no possible justification for this, but i have felt all along that the nether sphere is in a tardis, tho whether it is the doctor’s, the master’s or a n other time lord’s i know not, but if i had to choose i would say a n other ‘s tardis inside the doctor’s tardis and disguised as the bookcase, cos there is something very odd about that bookcase…     I would say it’s entirely possible; at times it looks very much like the inside of a TARDIS. I love the bookcase idea!

    @papermoon   To me, it seemed as if he deliberately goaded the Doctor into throwing him off the TARDIS just so he could say to Clara ‘Now you can see him for who he really is’      Yes, I do see your point about this scene.

    I think that what the child said was “what are the round things?”

    @janetteb   So perfect that, as the Doctor points out, he isn’t entirely believable.     So, is he a fairy tale turned real, like Robin Hood (whom Clara always wanted to meet)?

    #34263
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus  and @bobbyfat yes I thought that too! The idea that someone could be rattling around the TARDIS with the Dr -I didn’t say the crucial “another TARDIS inside a TARDIS’ though! Great idea.

    In re-watching Flatline and the most recent ep I started to wonder about the ‘my Clara my Clara’ comment and also “Annabelle  my Annabelle”. Does this mean  Missy is the Doctor? Then, of course I started recalling the bits I know about the valeyard?? Others have mentioned this theory also. I love how, on this site, it’s great to share ideas.  My favourite reads are often ones which totally veer my thought-direction off course!  Meeting of minds (small is mine but that’s OK) and compounding of thoughts -tis great 🙂

    @strax my husband fell asleep!  I spose this is better than throwing the remote -hardware, you know, it aint cheap 🙂

    @whisht I agree  the “incongruous” comments of the Dr. How old is Clara? 35? ‘Mr PE’. Not being able to tell who is who -not just in Deep Breath but other episodes. The fact that Clara has an unnaturally wide/round face as referenced (again) in Forest.

    @janetteb yes, I recall the perfect boyfriend. I think I said that he was athletic, romantic, loved the kids (kids in general and being a daddy), he was a soldier (as the Doctor was) and is generally good to her. I’m sure I riffed (read: stole) that idea from someone else. Still, others are divided about whether Dan is too controlling. I recall mentioning yesterday that I wasn’t sure: I say ‘yep’ one day and then ‘nope, he’s being caring’ the next day. Personalities . They’re a problem! If Orson is Danny in some other Danny-Dreamland then that would mean he also echoes what Clara likes -the attractive young time-traveller. Maybe one she can help and comfort. Who doesn’t fantasise about helping and showing someone something?

    Kindest, puro

    #34264
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @purofilion @arbutus  and @bobbyfat yes I thought that too! The idea that someone could be rattling around the TARDIS with the Dr -I didn’t say the crucial “another TARDIS inside a TARDIS’ though! Great idea.

    It has been suggested before! In post #33840 on the Flatline thread. (I may not have been the first to suggest it, though!)

    Given that TARDISes materialising inside each other caused recursion problems before (in Logopolis), it is possible that there were clues in Flatline to show that:

    1) TARDISes can be whatever size they want;

    2) TARDISes can be whatever weight they want;

    3) People can carry TARDISes around with them;

    Therefore, by carrying a TARDIS into another TARDIS may prevent that kind of recursion.

    #34265
    janetteB @janetteb

    @Purofilion Sorry I forgot who mentioned the “perfect boyfriend” and who suggested that everything might be in Clara’s mind. Re watching the episode this morning it was Danny as the perfect boyfriend that really struck me with that idea in the back of my mind. She is even playing the audience at times, watching him, remarking on how attractive he is. I also found her instant attraction to him in Into the Dalek rather unaccountable but put it down to it being just a story and necessary given the time limits and that the romance was not the primary subject of the episode.

    I originally dismissed the idea that everything is happening in Clara’s head or generated by her because it does make it rather a “and then I woke up” kind of scenario however Moffat has done that before with the Big Bang and re setting the universe. Moffat does like to play with questions of reality and there has certainly been that theme running through this series.

    The tears when asked had he killed a civilian suggest to me that there is more to Danny that Clara’s wish fulfillment. I certainly hope so anyway. (I like the suggestion that was made, again, I have forgotten whom by, that it might have been Clara that he killed or caused the death of.)

    (I posted most of this on another thread. The Sofa I think.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #34267
    Anonymous @

    @janetteb Oh yes, I’m sure it was mentioned by a lot of people. I do my best to recall who said what but the Forum is getting bigger, the minds are ‘huger’ and the theories more wonderful and intergalatically crazy/bonkers. I see that the wish-fulfilment strategy is a problem in so far as Dan exists -some of the time -but not much of the time -outside of Clara’s existence. Hhm. Point. He seems to be around when Clara is talking to him and thinking about him. Except a) the cadets  b) the discussion with the student about ‘who did you kill, sir?’ @badwulf I only now understand the recursion problem with the TARDIS. So, by reducing it in every way possible, it can be ‘replicated’ multiple times maybe? That would be a blast!

    Kindest, puro.

    #34268
    janetteB @janetteb

    Yes I now take notes when I am first reading through the threads because usually by the time I view an episode there is over a page to get through. Unfortunately now I don’t even know when that idea was first suggested. I still hoping to find that Dan is Orson’s missing twin brother, as in the medieval tale about Orson and Valentine. (The later name kind of suits Danny now.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #34269
    Strax @strax

    @bluesqeekpip even though I found this episode a great way to catch a nap, I am glad for the uptick in overnight ratings.  I believe that this episode needed more explosions and lasers.

    Clara was tolerable and not really anything regarding her character stood out.  Danny is pushing it a bit with the doctor with his PE marching of the kids.

    the little girl who saw things was a bit overplayed, with all of the running around.  This was definately a bit of a filler episode.   One trick for any writer is to calm the masses a bit with a sleeper, it makes the next intense episode seem that much better.

    funny how our culture has changed.  Classic who is very slow compared to the reboot.  We are less patient, want more action, and less willing to let a story play out for any period of time.

    The forest in this episode was beautiful and the cgi this year has been very good.  Last weeks episode was my favorite I still can’t get the small TARDIS and the grandpa dance out of my head, loved it.  Funniest who I’ve seen.

    #34284
    BESD1 @besd1

    @juniperfish “this was a eco-fable about the majesty of forests; one where the Doctor was a wizard who knew to listen to children rather than medicate them.”

    Exactly – this was a children’s fantasy told pretty much entirely from a child’s POV. As such not all of it worked for me (wish fulfilling dodgy science, empty London, reappearing sister, entire world stopped in tracks by unaffected voice of a child to name but four) but I applaud the attempt to tell the story in a different way. Its this commitment to attempting the different in terms of style, tone and delivery that is making the current series such a thrilling ride. Uneven maybe, but ambitious and fresh, for which I forgive almost everything (except maybe the moon egg).

    On a different note – Danny. Personally I’m not a huge fan, but I don’t get the noise about him being controlling/possessive/ a potential abuser. Wasn’t it him who told Clara to think carefully before deciding to stop traveling? Wasn’t it her who lied repeatedly to him, even though he made it clear he didn’t have an issue with her being in the Tardis? Wasn’t it him who, confronted with evidence of her dishonesty, didn’t get angry or exit in high dudgeon, but actually very reasonably explained why he deserved an explanation and then offered her time to think before she gave it? Am I missing something here?

    #34285
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    Thanks for the welcome.

    @purofilion – makes sense, perhaps this is why he started the cadet group, to bring a sense of order and familiarity. But order to what? He seems to have some very strong feelings about having been in the military. I wonder if he represses these feelings until something triggers him and those feelings come out. The scene in the TARDIS where he goads the Doctor seems, to me, to be one of these.

    On a side note- do we know for sure what battles Danny has been in?

    @bluesqueakpip – he does seem to be acting in a way that suggests he thinks the Doctor is dangerous. But it is true that we don’t know for sure if that is the case.

    I also find his and Clara’s relationship strange, but from reading what other people have posted, I’m not alone in this. The most noticeable thing, as many people have pointed out, is that he is very tolerant of her lying. He has repeatedly asked her to tell the truth, but she doesn’t. Until the end of this episode and when she tries to and he cut her off (ok, I know somebody else has said that and I apologise for not remembering who).

    There’s also the three Danny’s, but here, again, is I can’t remember exactly what happened in the series. Clara told Rupert the toy soldier that would protect him, so, was it Danny or Orson that had that same toy later? My brain is saying Orson, but I’m not sure.

    @arbutus – ok thanks, that’s what it was. I vaguely remember some comment from one of the kids about round things, and I guess my brain decided to ad lib on that.

    I want to say more about the other characters, but must do a re-watch of ‘The Forest in the Night’.

    good night, happy posting.

     

     

    #34286
    BESD1 @besd1

    @devilishrobby “For this reason in my personal opinion it can be forgiven for straying from factual science. ”

    I’ll refer you to @badwulf on this – basically saved me a lot of typing, so thanks.

    @phaseshift “And it seems the lost (and perhaps dead), are starting to return”

    Brilliant – it hadn’t occurred to me that Annabel might have returned from Missy’s heaven! That would redeem an otherwise unforgivably saccharine ending for me. Also, am I the only person who found the prodigal’s silent grin slightly unnerving?

    #34290
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @besd1

    I don’t get the noise about him being controlling/possessive/ a potential abuser.

    Judging by the recommends on the ‘for’ and ‘against’ Guardian BTL comments, it runs about 50/50. I’d go with @danmartinuk and say that Danny is very passive-aggressive.

    he made it clear he didn’t have an issue with her being in the Tardis?

    He had a row with her about phoning the Doctor. I’d say this row is very carefully written, because you don’t know whether he’s shouting because she’s lying about phoning the Doctor – or whether she’s lying because she knows there will be a row.

    Now, if he genuinely believes the Doctor is dangerous – and for some reason can’t explain this/get it across to Clara – then the row is understandable. Clara’s lying becomes evidence (to Danny) of the bad influence that the Doctor is having on her. Likewise, if Danny believes the Doctor is dangerous because the Doctor is basically in the position of being Clara’s ‘drug dealer’, then his suspicion, slightly obsessive checking up on her behaviour, and attempts to stop her seeing the Doctor are all signs of a nice guy who’s really worried (and doesn’t quite know what to do).

    If, on the other hand, he dislikes Clara being friends with another guy and travelling to exciting places, then Clara’s lying becomes understandable; but Danny becomes rather controlling and over-possessive.

    Wasn’t it him who told Clara to think carefully before deciding to stop travelling?

    Yeah. Unfortunately, that’s classic ’emotionally abusive’ behaviour. The abusive partner is the only one who’s allowed to make decisions. Clara certainly can’t be allowed to make a decision for herself that would genuinely remove one of her ‘faults’ – until she’s reached the point where she lets Danny decide for her.

    Likewise, his constant niggles about her lying could be classic. Having discovered one of her faults (she tends to lie her way out of difficult situations), he makes it seem the worst crime possible in their relationship. So Clara would be constantly feeling wrong-footed, insecure and as if she’s the one with the problem. After all, she’s the one who’s lying…

    …but Danny’s the one who’s created the difficult situation, by telling her to think carefully before she stops travelling in the TARDIS.

    And the suspicion, obsessive checking up on her behaviour, and attempts to stop her seeing the Doctor – all signs of an emotionally abusive boyfriend. As indeed are not supporting her decisions in front of a class of pupils, and suggesting that he’s the person who really understands ‘what’s important’.

    Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets please!
    😉

    #34293
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Massive apologies – The thing about my work-life balance at the moment is it seems loaded against internet comments. Which is unfortunate. I’ve had another rewatch of the episode tonight, and I came away liking it an awful lot more.

    I think there is an immediacy about certain episodes – they play to your expectations. I think the last two definitely did that, and I can’t fault Mathieson for giving the audience what they wanted, but I do welcome alternative voices with their own vision of the Doctor. I think FCB produced something under direction, which IS more of a character piece. Largely though I think the characters are supposed to be observed as the “People in charge” (I know – it’s hilarious isn’t it?”)

    There is quite a lot I didn’t get to say, so a rewatch has helped to put back those original thoughts. I think Maebh’s sister had come back from the dead, which I obviously expressed. The main reason though is the wolves and Tiger. The Doctor came to the obvious conclusion that they’d escaped from the Zoo. The Doctor, in SMs run, is allowed to make up stuff on the spot. It’s curious that the camera (in the sleepover scene at the start) lingers over the children sleeping under stones with the Wolves above, and then pans to a Tiger (all stuffed). Have they, to the viewer “come back”. The forest is filled with Predators – which track people, from their start.

    I think the abrupt end to the episode, revealing the lost sister, is leading up to something. Like the Wolves, the tiger, the egg-moon, the myths, I think these are random occurrences of Life, breaking through. I shall explain more in another post.

    A couple of references to wars sprang to the forefront. The Voice of the Trees claims “we have grown above the mass graves of your wars”.

    The Doctor (when claiming that forgetting is a power at the end) suggests that “if you remembered, you’d have no wars…..or children”.

    I go back to Remembrance Sunday…remembering the dead, wars and the potential for rebirth.

    #34294
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    I can’t remember if I’ve mentioned this, but I swear the voice-over for the Voice of the Trees is Michael Sheen, the voice of House.

    @phaseshift – ‘We are the Life that Prevails’, fitting in with Dalek Rusty’s Road-to-Damascus moment of ‘Life … prevails.’

    #34295

    @bluesqueakpip

    He had a row with her about phoning the Doctor. I’d say this row is very carefully written, because you don’t know whether he’s shouting because she’s lying about phoning the Doctor – or whether she’s lying because she knows there will be a row.

    This only works if you take it in isolation, and even then not very well – over the entire episode it is perfectly clear that he is mostly unhappy that she is not thinking of the children. His priority at this point was to reassure the parents that their kids were OK.

    Here’s was to brag to the Doctor.

    #34297

    @bluesqueakpip

    Wasn’t it him who told Clara to think carefully before deciding to stop travelling?

    Yeah. Unfortunately, that’s classic ‘emotionally abusive’ behaviour. The abusive partner is the only one who’s allowed to make decisions. Clara certainly can’t be allowed to make a decision for herself that would genuinely remove one of her ‘faults’ – until she’s reached the point where she lets Danny decide for her.

    Sorry, but this is total bilge. He went out of his way to not push her into a decision and somehow that is manipulative? That is insane troll logic.

    He has simply made the error that many inexperienced at dealing with addicts make – of thinking that being an addict is something people do, rather than something people are. Of believing the “I can *sniff* give it up at *sniff* any time,” line that addicts like to spin.

    I doubt this is how they will (or would) handle it this way, but the real-world conclusion of this story (assuming his love in genuine) is the equivalent of what happened to a friend. A note from her partner saying: “I’m staying at the Travelodge. If you aren’t in AA by Friday I’m changing the locks”. She’s been clean for 15 years as a result of that note.

    #34300
    janetteB @janetteb

    @besd1

    Danny. Personally I’m not a huge fan, but I don’t get the noise about him being controlling/possessive/ a potential abuser. Wasn’t it him who told Clara to think carefully before deciding to stop traveling? Wasn’t it her who lied repeatedly to him, even though he made it clear he didn’t have an issue with her being in the Tardis? Wasn’t it him who, confronted with evidence of her dishonesty, didn’t get angry or exit in high dudgeon, but actually very reasonably explained why he deserved an explanation and then offered her time to think before she gave it? Am I missing something here?

    Hear hear. I am with you on this topic. And..

    Also, am I the only person who found the prodigal’s silent grin slightly unnerving?

    I just attributed it to bad acting in keeping with the cheesiness of that entire scene. When I re-watched the second time I was called out of the room just before that and the episode as a whole was better for it.

    Back to Danny. I am with the 50% on his side of the discussion. I think he genuinely loves Clara though I can’t work out why. Thus far he has basically been constantly abused and manipulated by her. The “the next few days are all about you”, line in The Caretaker, was manipulative. Her constant lying to him is manipulative. Like the Doctor we have seen a better Clara but he has only seen a “broken” version. Clara was lying to him before she even knew him so I don’t think it was his fault ever. I am constantly wondering why he loves her so much which gives weight to the suggestion made by @Purofilion and others that he is a construct of her imagination. (Though we have kind of been there with Amy and I doubt that Moffat would repeat that story idea.) I guess we will soon know one way or t’other.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #34303
    Anonymous @

    @janetteb @bluesqueakpip @pedant @besd1  The idea that Danny is emotionally abusive or is an ‘abusive partner emotionally’ is way over the top. I think he controls her occasionally. I think this happens in partnerships at different times.

    But to define Dan AS  totally or wholly controlling all the time; for that is what an emotionally abusive partner is, is not at all true in my opinion. I can understand that he’s frustrated she’s been lying, I can understand that Clara is told by Dan “no, don’t tell me now, tell me later when you’ve done your marking/had a shower/had a sleep” and therefore have time for a sit-down over a cuppa to discuss the situation.

    Dan doesn’t want or need some formal apology, he doesn’t want her to go all Sack Cloth and Ashes but he’d like her to think before she sits down with him to both talk and listen. This isn’t an unjust suggestion nor is it phrased as an order.

    I think, on balance, Dan acted like he should have: in loco parentis, as teacher, guide and excursion co-leader. Clara, on the other hand was pied piper (referenced by another poster above), continually lying -about serious issues – such as whether she’d called the school administration or not, wanting to take the children into space. It was not “inexcusable” that Dan ‘failed’ to support her in that situation, rather it was inexcusable that she insist they travel with the Doctor: what if something went wrong and they were delivered home-ish -like last week or, in Space, they discover a left over fleet of Daleks! No parents have been informed 🙂

    OK. I know I sound like ‘unimaginative teacher’ who thinks Clara should have emailed  permission slips to every parent asking for a virtual signature before “we go into space to see solar flares in a TARDIS, which by the way, is a spaceship but don’t worry it’s only as large as a…..and no-one will get squished. If your child needs space-sickness tablets then normal car-sickness tablets will be acceptable….etc etc” Once again we have cosmetic issues of abuse & power -well, that isn’t well explained by my tired brain, but Dan shouldn’t be despised -he’s trying his damn best and doing a good job in an atypical situation. I will say he’s no Rory!

    Others have pointed out the mythology, ethical dramas and even biblical stories in this series -the prodigal sister returning is one. Yes, I found her grin disconcerting too. Is Missy a prodigal….something? And was she surprised by Annabelle’s return or the whole turn of events? Either way she ‘likes surprises’. Me too! Can’t wait for the finale. I’m assuming it’s a 2 parter? Have we had 11 episodes thus making the fortnight ahead episodes 12 & 13??

    Kindest,

    puro.

    #34304
    stormintheheartofthesun @stormintheheartofthesun

    I may be the only person to have noticed this, but right after the group of wolves that was chasing Maeve jump the fence they run right past a red telephone box in the trees. Looks just like the one in a certain poster for this season behind Missy. The same red telephone box that had everyone speculating that Missy is a Time Lord. Honestly seeing that was the most exciting thing in this episode for me. It was a perfectly nice episode, but nothing that will really be remembered.

    @papermoon Orson had the toy solder. He’s not another Danny but was suggested in that episode to be the grandchild of Clara and Danny. I think that’s why Clara makes such an effort with Danny on their date even though it went so horribly, because she had a sign that they end up together.

    #34305
    BadWulf @badwulf

    What’s to prevent even the toy soldier being a TARDIS, if size and mass considerations can be disregarded?

    #34306
    Rob @rob

    I think that Missy sent Maebh to the Doctor, from inside her head, Maebh is a young Claricle????

    I was wowed by this episode it just came together as a whole

    Other items…….

    Never play cards with @Purofillion she has way too many hands 😉 AND I really appreciate your posts and 99% of of the posts/posters here but….

    I think some comments have seeped through the void from the negasphere, perhaps the Dalek antibodies should be activated????

    #34307
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    ‘We are the Life that Prevails’, fitting in with Dalek Rusty’s Road-to-Damascus moment of ‘Life … prevails.’

    Absolutely – I think Rusty’s revelation may have been SM writing the mission statement for this series. While I’ve dwelled on Missy being Death, most of the stories are about life and the desire for it – in some cases unlikely things striving for life. Life and Death have that joint relationship, and need balance. Maybe that balance has become skewed.

    I had a bit of a flashback with this episode to something I read as a student – Alan Moore’s wonderful run on the Swamp Thing. I have therefore picked my old copies up, and have become entranced, yet again. It really is astonishing work. I may have to put up a blog post.

    I think the wonderful CGI of the city under the green did it, and there is a section of the run in which Swamp Thing lays siege to Gotham (bringing him into conflict with Batman). As a plant elemental, he’s practically a god and the de-facto “Voice of the Trees” for the DC Universe. I half expected him to lumber up.

    I wish someone could tempt Moore to an episode of Who. I have no idea what the result would be, but the man has an outrageous imagination.

    #34309
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant, @purofilion

    His priority at this point was to reassure the parents that their kids were OK.

    This is what I mean about good writing.

    Did Danny ask Clara to phone the school? It didn’t sound like he had – but we don’t know. So if his priority was to reassure the parents etc, why didn’t he phone? Is he the only teacher in the whole of London who goes on a school trip without a mobile phone?

    Who decided to take the kids on a walk back to Spitalfields? We don’t know. (though one of the kids refers to ‘he’, suggesting that they think it was Danny). If the distances are a bit vague, South Ken to Spitalfields would take about two hours and a half. Taking a bunch of urban twelve-year olds on a two and a half hour cross country walk – no wonder the Doctor’s nickname for him is ‘PE’. 😉

    In loco parentis, his job was to keep the kids at the Natural History Museum until their parents could reach them/alternative arrangements could be made. That was his loco parentis job. He has seven kids with him who are safe and in a known location; one lost.

    As I’ve said before – procedure is that one teacher remains with the group, the other will retrieve the lost child. If you all set off in search of little Maebh, there’s a very real possibility one of the others will end up getting lost as well – in this case, lost somewhere in a seven mile path between South Kensington and Spitalfields, in a forest. With wolves. And a tiger.

    But we don’t know whose less-than-bright idea that was. We aren’t told. We aren’t told whether Clara was supposed to phone the school, either, or whether she took a few minutes out to phone the Doctor because the school wouldn’t be open yet – then got sidetracked because the Doctor had retrieved one of her pupils.

    The split’s about 50/50 because it’s written that way. We’re looking in a mirror; what are we seeing? The monster who’s not, who’s really trying to save the world/kids? Or the two dimensional image who’s decided to be a monster?

    [Incidentally, Danny’s reaction to Maebh being with the Doctor does rather strongly suggest that he sees the Doctor as the cannibalistic wizard in the gingerbread cottage.] 🙂

    #34311
    sianewallace @sianewallace

    Haven’t seen anyone comment yet on the Doctor’s final words in the episode: “The human superpower: Forgetting. If you’d remember how things felt, you’d have stopped having wars and stopped having babies.”

    #34314
    beancounter @beancounter

    Hi,

    I’ve been a fan of Doctor Who since the Tom Baker are, and enjoyed all of the modern episodes from 2005 to last season. But this season has just been uninspiring.

    The Clara character just rubs me the wrong way. She seems one dimensional. Too perfect, always right, no apparent meaningful flaws, and she really seems to have no regard for the Doctor beyond getting a free ride through time. Danny is similar. Raised in a orphanage, and spent time in the military…and yet he has no skeletons in his closet. ..not even a small one. He seems perfectly wise and patient. Danny is just a completely unbelievable character.

    The Doctor’s character has been marginalized into a grumpy doofus. There are numerous situation comedies on TV where you have a male and a female lead character. The female is always shown as being smart, compassionate and the moral compass of the family who is always right. The male lead is portrayed as a good natured but directionless idiot who needs the female lead to guide him in the right direction.

    Do we really need that same boring characterization and comedy plot stereotype with Doctor Who?

    And then there is the subtle man-bashing. Remember the first episode of the season? “All men are apes”.

    Another thing that bothers me is the show seems to primarily focus and the relationship of Clara and Danny with the plot and the Doctor taking a back seat. Remember the X-files and Fringe. Both ultimately became “Shipper”shows with the main purpose or plot of the show de-emphasized to the point of no longer being interesting.

    I liked the mummy episode and the inside the Dalek episode. The rest, IMO, were forgettable.

    The eight words that no producer wants to here are: “I don’t care what happens to the characters”.

    I’m rapidly approaching that point.

    #34315

    @beancounuter

    Too perfect, always right, no apparent meaningful flaws

    Apart from the whole lying through her teeth thing (and does anyone else recall here vagueness in Rings of Ahka-wotsit and Cold Blood when asked to talk about herself?

    Raised in a orphanage, and spent time in the military…and yet he has no skeletons in his closet. ..not even a small one

    It has been very strongly hinted that he has a skeleton in his closet.

    And then there is the subtle man-bashing.

    Oh sweet Jesus Horatio Christmas. the bridge is over there >>>>>>

    #34317
    beancounter @beancounter

    Oh sweet Jesus Horatio Christmas. the bridge is over there >>>>>>

    I really don’t think that statement is a valid counterpoint.

    #34320
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @beancounter And then there is the subtle man-bashing. Remember the first episode of the season? “All men are apes”

    How is the statement in quotes incorrect? I see no man-bashing, subtle or otherwise.

    Also, your username is spelt incorrectly and doesn’t match your profile name.

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