Last Christmas

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  • #36488
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @Barbara Lefty But were the Dream Crabs dreamed too?  The central conceit of the episode is not trusting anything and that stretches into when everyone appears to wake up.  Of course, we’re probably overthinking everything.

    @milliemaerose Moffatt has spoken about Orson Pink and basically said that Danny has other family and Orson likely descends from that stock.  It could just be a misdirect or it could be what Moffatt actually thinks.

    #36489
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    No, it’s definitely not Clara’s flat.

    She could possibly have moved to a big old house with a Victorian street lamp outside – we know perfectly well that the Doctor has a habit of making sure that his After Gap companions have enough money to live on, and tends to miscalculate by a spare million or so. (Probably an after-effect of meeting Sarah Jane years later and realising, from that, that he shouldn’t just dump them and walk off).

    It’s just that, it being Christmas, and having seen her family visit her – I’m guessing that this time, she’s at her Dad’s. The Christmas tree has a family sized group of presents around it and the house is much too big for one person – but about right for Dad, Stepmum, Gran living-in and a guest-room for Clara to visit.

    Something where we’ll have to wait and see in Series 9, I think, unless it gets mentioned in an interview.

    #36490
    nsgirl13 @nsgirl13

    I was watching the first Christmas special (2005) last night, and noticed a strange ‘coincidence’, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed this too: in that episode the newly regenerated Doctor uses a tangerine (he calls it a satsuma), talks about how it sums up Christmas, “You go through all of those presents and right at the end, tucked away at the bottom theres always one stupid satsuma”. He then uses it to kill the lead Sycorax, and says “no second chances, I’m that sort of a man”. *could that be foreshadowing the last christmas? going through all of the dream scenarios that seem like the ‘present’ and at the end there is a tangerine?

    Just thought it was interesting we might have encountered Santa’s calling card (it is explained as being from Jakcie’s man-friend, Howard is from the market and started delivering bags of oranges to her door though) 10 years before, and the talking about second chances in the same scene might be too much of a coincidence? Also, the Sycorax implied the Doctor had magical powers (saying witchcraft while he regenerated his hand) and in “Last Christmas” we also have someone implying he has magical powers (and the next episode is Magicians’s Apprentice). Just thought it was really interesting when I was re-watching old episodes last night 🙂 Any thoughts?

    #36492
    lisa @lisa

    @fatmaninabox Hi — So I’m still thinking about where they all got infected by the dream crabs
    but ???? HUH! – lol? help please!! its still not working for me. I’m still trying to wrap my
    head around your explanation and its still a big puzzle. I guess I am having puzzle-phobic-syndrome
    about this issue but all I can say is it still nags! I’m open to any further scenarios and/or
    theorizing to subdue what will be my insanity for months until we get to the next season
    — maybe/maybe not?

    #36493
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Merry Christmas all, from the Blenkinsop household–which is currently littered with random tangerines (my first tangerine Christmas!) and the council pick-up has just taken away the Blenkinsop empties (it was a big truck).

    First impressions of “Last Christmas” were very positive indeed. Moffatt can pull off, in a one-hour show, a wonderful play on the dream-within-the-dream trope with a lightness of touch that totally escapes the over-blown pretension of Nolan’s “Inception”, which, bizarrely, all the Moffatt naysayers think is just too, too clever. I have long felt that there is a fundamental distinction between ideas and entertainments that are either “clever” or “wise”. Something like “Inception” was “clever” but emotionally barren and, for me, totally forgettable . “Last Christmas” was “wise” in its meditation on love and memory. I know which one I would prefer any day of the week.

    And as @janetteb points out, “Red Dwarf” played on the idea with the use of the despair squid brilliantly (actually my all-time favourite episode of “Red Dwarf”), long before “Inception” (as did “Dead of Night”, and Edgar Allen Poe, and Bunuel’s “Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie”, and lots more, most of which are presumably completely unknown to those who can only assume that SM imitated “Inception”). Give me strength!!

    But back to the show. @kianorion88, @lisa, @milliemaerose, I think the idea that the dream never ended is a really interesting one, although I tend to feel that “Last Christmas” was probably intended as a self-contained entertainment. Everything about it was a dream, right down to the dream house that Clara was inhabiting. Of course, we are all waiting with baited breath to see how series 9 starts, but I would be surprised if there is a call-back to “Last Christmas”. So, alas, I do not think we will see Nick Frost again. Nor do I think that, since the Doctor seems to wake up on the volcano, the last two episodes of series 8 never happened. But hey, since I am almost always wrong in my predictions, who knows!

    But since the line “time travel has always been possible in dreams” was also used by Madame Vastra, when we last saw River Song, I don’t think we have seen the last of Moffatt using dreams. Which is a good thing, because he does it so well!

    #36494
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    You see what happens when you go too far @macphisto96? You end up down a narrative cul de sac from which there is no hope of rescue, only to have Moffat do something so totally different that it breaks your head and before you know it, you’re over at the Graun blog screaming, “Moffat must GO!” But it was just that once, and I’m better now, honest!!!

    But yeah, totally, they are all in Missy’s tardis with dream patches on… 😉

    #36499

    I notice there is significant push-back against the guardian-arse-tas.

    #36500
    lisa @lisa

    @macphisto96 – I had a chance to watch this again without lots of interruptions [finally!] and the thing
    is there is really only 6 items on Shona’s list — I stopped the frame to read her list — 1-dvd alien
    2-dvd thing from another world 3-Dad comes around 4-dvd miracle on 34th St. 5-game of thrones marathon
    and 6-forgive Dave. So the number 6 represents the physical world and also sacrifice and caring etc.
    and so on which is what the meaning of Xmas is !
    I’m still even after this re-watching having no new ideas about how they got snatched by the dream crabs
    and also the part where the Doctor wakes up in the Volcano-like place is still a big “why there?” for me
    but its part of the fun – right?

    #36501
    Anonymous @

    @pedant I noticed this too 🙂  It helps when you read 4-5 newspapers a day.

    Most of them utter crap.

    The dream within a dream within dreams @Blenkinsopthebrave  The ‘Classical’ mind – of the 1700s -wove narratives within its music and prose which, unlike the relentless mind of the period some 2000 years before, was digressive and random. The episode showed this.

    I think, despite my ‘wow, volcano’; ‘ah haa, the chalkboard’, that this was pure Moffat happily leading us down a winding road with a tiny bit of string to help us back home.

    Kindest, firingup

    #36506

    @lisa

    I’m still even after this re-watching having no new ideas about how they got snatched by the dream crabs

    The correct answer in such situations is “They just did.” The technical answer is that a cocktail of of phlebotnum and unobtanium were blended in a McGuffin machine in order to create a device with which to tell a story.

    In all of the very best monster stories the monster is not the story, but a device through which to tell a story.

    #36508
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @lisa, @pedant

    Dream Crabs:

    I don’t think there has to be any real world explanation. I think this was simply a self-contained entertainment. It was a dream. It was all a dream.

    #36509
    lisa @lisa

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan and @blenkinsopthebrave – Thanks ! All very useful info and much appreciated
    but nope! — its just going to be all grief and torment for me 🙁 lol !

    #36511
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa and @pedant

    In all of the very best monster stories the monster is not the story, but a device through which to tell a story.

    Exactly. In the story, I note that:

    • Clara has just lost Danny, and is so grief-stricken that staying in a fantasy world and dying seems a practical option.
    • The Doctor has just been betrayed by Clara AND his former best friend, failed to find Gallifrey and has solved Clara’s inability to choose between him and Danny by leaving her.
    • Shona has clearly had a massive row with someone called Dave, and her flat is such a mess it strongly suggests she might have kicked him out (and feels miserable about it).
    • Fiona Bellows is in a wheelchair.
    • We don’t know about Ashley – except we do know that she feels she might have been a scientist if only her parents had taken that ambition seriously (they gave her a toy microscope, in the dream Santa gave her a real one).

    Why did the dream crabs snatch these people? Because for all of them, there was a real temptation to just give up and drift away into the fantasy world.

    Which is what the story was about: helpful dreams – versus a fantasy world that stops you living in the real one.

    #36512
    Anonymous @

    Everyone’s theories have been fun to read.  @bluesqueakpip noticed the elf named the Wolf that I thought was interesting too.  But I have a feeling it is just Moffat teasing this time.

    What an epically bonkers episode. The bonkers theorizing is limitless and even the Doctor is joining in now!!

    Doctor: “You know the big problem
    in telling fantasy and reality apart?” “They’re both ridiculous. 😆

    @lisa – That’s the trouble with solving the puzzles this time. Every theory seems to lead to another bottomless pit. I wonder if Moffat was trying to remind us to leave a trail of bread crumbs, with The Forest of the Night episode, so we can find our way back out again. XD

    I love the endless possibilities which are fun to think about and very appreciated since we could have another long wait until the Magician’s Apprentice.

    I am mostly leaning toward 2 fave Bonkers Theories for where did the dreams begin?

    1. Beginning of Dark Water because: Sonya calls 12 a “skeleton man”, when she first sees him. The Doctor wakes up at the volcano.
    2. Beginning of Time of the Doctor because: The title Last Christmas could mean exactly that – Last Christmas special (TotD) was when the dreams started. The Dream Crabs might have been behind the crack in the wall and jumped on Clara’s face when she kneeled down in front of the crack. After that Clara might have dreamed the sky opening up and the Doctor getting more regeneration energy. So maybe the Doctor really did die at Trenzalore and went inside Missy’s TL matrix like Danny did? That is why he looks like a skeleton man to Sonya now. But on the other hand maybe the dream crabs jumped through the crack onto the Doctor first, and he dreamed Clara flew on the outside of the Tardis to come and help him? They might both be inside the Clock Tower dreaming still.

     I’m not sure I like either of these theories, but those are the ones I can’t stop thinking about right now.

    #36513
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip -Totally agree with everything you said–I get that they were all targeted because
    they had in common some grief and/or loss. Its not that part of the story that bothers me. It all
    has to do with how the beginning of this story started off- it was a great beginning except for
    the part where the creature invasion scene was cut out. I’m sure there was a good reason for
    doing this but as @barnable said -I guess I just wanted more breadcrumbs 🙂

    @All- thanks for all your kindness in my time of neediness regarding this matter !

    #36515
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    I note this: ‘Even a defeat is better than nothing at all.’

    paganofilion

    #36516
    Anonymous @

    @barnable what I meant above was that I wouldn’t be worried or concerned about the dreams so much. It’s whole hole.

    #36517
    Anonymous @

    @lisa the monsters eat the breadcrumbs anyway (sorry mods, she ducks!)

    #36518
    lisa @lisa

    @purofilion Oh those greedy rascally monsters!

    Its nighty night time — to dream or not to dream

    #36519
    Serahni @serahni

    About to rewatch it again.  All your bonkers theorising is going to make my head explode and now I feel like I need to rewatch the entire series to figure out if they’ve been asleep and dreaming for all of it!  Lol!  Looking forward to being able to watch the scene with ‘old’ Clara again without suffering a mild heart attack that she really was leaving and we weren’t going to get any answers to all these breadcrumbs still be laid about her.  The part where he helps her with the Christmas bonbon is going to get to me again though, perhaps even more now that I know it’s supposedly The Doctor’s dream.  It goes to show how much it meant to him that she was there to do the same for him back on Trenzalore.

    I really am glad she’s staying.  I wasn’t necessarily happily, in the end, with the whole Danny arc but there is something about these two.  A very strong sense of family and I’m enjoying watching The Doctor develop as a result of it.  Oh well, off to watch again!

    #36520
    Serahni @serahni

    Oh, one thing I’m not sure has been mentioned, which means there’s probably an obvious answer I’m missing….

    What was the thing about Clara being awesome at mental arithmetic all about?  Has that come up before and I’ve just forgotten?  Or does she just long to be a super smart mathematician and that was her dreaming of numerical glory?  *lol*  Or has she still retained the uplink from the WiFi?  I really do think I’ve completely missed a previous reference or ten!

    #36521
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    it was a great beginning except for the part where the creature invasion scene was cut out.

    The invasion may have consisted of six creatures. I think at one point, the Doctor theorises that the dream crab got him first, then traced Clara through him. That suggests that – somehow – they don’t just eat people’s brains, they travel along their dreams and memories.

    The others are described by the Doctor as ‘collateral damage’. They may have been vaguely connected with the Doctor somehow, or it could be that – to keep the Doctor trapped in a dream – there would need to be real people to rescue. The danger to Earth was that, if the crabs all succeeded, there were enough now on Earth to start breeding. Yummy!

    I note that the character who most recently referred to ‘collateral damage’ in her ongoing game with the Doctor is Missy. 😉

    #36522
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Serhani

    It was a joke. The maths was dream-maths; most of the answers were wildly wrong. She’s an English teacher; they can’t do maths.*

    She did get some of it right when she was asking herself the questions.

    *Apologies to those English teachers who can do maths, especially since I’m one myself. But – admit it – most English teachers can’t. 😀

    #36524
    Serahni @serahni

    Oh, were they wrong!  I missed that part. *lol*  I was having to stream the episode on ABC iView directly after it aired because my parents were watching something else and thus I was watching on my computer with headphones.  I didn’t understand The Doctor’s line and so maybe that might have shed some light!  Thank you for clearing that up.  (Ironically, primary school teacher here.)

    #36526

    @lisa

    its just going to be all grief and torment for me :( lol !

    Everything has a price. This is the price of bonkers theorising. 😉

    #36527
    Anonymous @

    @all It’s 1am here; whatchu all doin’? I thought the boards would be exploding!  But I guess there’s many a slip between the wrist and that other thing..

    #36528
    Anonymous @

    don’t read that wrong. No entendre at this time please.

    #36530

    @purofilion

    Have just been into town for supplies (well, Marks & Spencer Mint Crumbles) and an icy (well, chilly) blast made me realise that the most unbelievable “yes this is a dream” moment was Clara standing outside at the North Pole.

    In her nightie.

    #36531
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    the most unbelievable “yes this is a dream” moment was Clara standing outside at the North Pole. In her nightie.

    Yes. Though I did notice that in a number of shots she was dressed in a nightie … AND a dressing gown, AND a coat, AND some lovely warm sheepskin boots. 😉

    #36533
    PoshEmoDork @poshemodork

    Here is my video review of Last Christmas on Youtube.

    Please go give it a watch Like and also Comment so we can discuss the episode on my channel enjoy!

     

    #36535
    Nine9 @nine9

    We all cannot ignore the fact that the tangerine at the end signifies that either they’re still trapped in a dream.

    My theory is that Santa Claus is The Celestial Toymaker and that basically all of what happened is one of his mind games and that The Doctor is trapped in his ‘Fun House’. What if Missy’s coordinates led The Doctor directly in the hands of The Toymaker? So from the moment he left nothing was real anymore? I mean The Crystal Guardian likes to play with games and illusions it would make perfect sense and this inceptiony-mind-game could all be one of his tricks. I wouldn’t know for sure why The Master would ally with The Crystal Guardian but as for what we’ve seen it’s the only conclusion that I could come up with. Santa Claus would be a very clever disguise and it would be very clever and interesting to bring back in the series The Celestial Toymaker.

    #36536
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip – Brilliant ! So all really beginning with the Doctor in the volcano place {back to DW}
    and then the rest are picked up thru psychically connected dreaming putting you in a place that feels
    like a reality- [Matrix like again] and yes the extra people are just the collateral damage for sure !
    Now this point about Missy and collateral damage is super intriguing for me – don’t know what type of
    breadcrumb that will turn out to be. @nine9 the notion that the Missy coordinates led the Doctor to the
    dream crabs? I thank you all for these VERY satisfying breadcrumbs !! @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan – I’m
    feeling less torment and grief! 🙂 To be honest- all of you are so brilliant and this has been so much
    better for my mental health than struggling thru all of it on my own ! 🙂

    #36537
    Brightstarclara @brightstarclara

    I loved this episode – it’s possibly my favorite Christmas special to date, even though A Christmas Carol comes pretty close. The overused dream setting was written by Moffat in a way that made it fresh and I enjoyed all the film references. The supporting characters were all fantastic, especially Nick Frost’s Santa Claus, but Shona was pretty amazing too – special notice must go to her dancing skills. I’m really glade Jenna Coleman is staying for another season. Her chemistry with Peter Capaldi’s Doctor is fantastic. The Twelfth Doctor and Clara Oswald are winning team. I hope they don’t mess everything up and they take full advantage of the potentialities that a character like Clara has. I’m also happy she is staying because I couldn’t have beard if she had left by dying of old age. When I saw she was old I thought it was the end of her and I cried real hard. It would have been as heartbreaking as Donna’s memory loss, to say the least. I know many people of DW fandom will be angry because they hate her, but I don’t care.

    #36538
    Nine9 @nine9

    @lisa She didn’t necessarily let him to the dream crabs but to The Celestial Toymaker. At this point the dream crabs could even not be a real thing but all a setup of The Toymaker to mess with The Doctor’s mind.

    #36540
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just re-watched it and liked it even better the second time around. But while I love truly bonkers theories, I don’t think this story needs a bonkers theory. It was all a dream.

    Specifically, it was Clara’s dream. From the moment she “woke” to the sound of Santa’s sleigh crashing on the rooftop of her dream house, to the end where the Doctor’s Tardis materialises in front of her dream house and she realises she wants to remain with the Doctor, and they run away. The whole story was her dream. And it was Moffat’s way of showing why Clara would want to continue to travel with the Doctor. At least for a while.

    But if that is too straight-forward an explanation, then you could also see Clara as the audience. In fact, all the companions, in their own way, are representitive of the audience for the show–they have their Doctor, who they travel with, until they wake up from the dream, and find other interests. Sort of like when we become too sophisticated to believe in Santa. But then we realise (perhaps because we become parents and see the wonder of Santa though the children’s eyes, or perhaps because we re-connect with the small child lurking inside of us all) that Santa (and the Doctor) is something worth believing in again. Even though we know it isn’t “real”.

    I think this may be Moffat’s best Christmas special yet. He really is a brilliant writer.

    #36541
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I like that idea a lot too especially since Clara could have gotten the idea
    of the dream crabs from the dream patches and why her dream starts from the volcano place since
    it is where she had her fall out with the Doctor. ok then- I’m really good now! Interesting list
    she dreamed up for Shona [if it was actually Clara’s list- Dad coming around but who’s Dave?]
    ah-oh! more over thinking over Sunday morning coffee….

    #36542

    @nine9

    I think the odds of it being The Celestial Toymaker, or anything else from significantly before the bulk of the modern audience has been alive are somewhere adjacent to zero.

    #36543
    Nine9 @nine9

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Why? It’s a show that everybody watches (those who grew up with Classic Who and the new generations). Just because a part of the new generations isn’t aware/haven’t watched the earlier episodes, I don’t think that it is to exclude a return of characters of the Classic era.

    #36544
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @nine9

    I tend to agree with you that Moffat could bring back a character from BG Who (after all, he brought back the Great Intelligence, and there would have very few people, aside from old ruins like myself, who would have been aware of the GI).

    But I also agree with @pedant in this case, as Moffat would need an exceptionally good reason to bring back an almost forgotten BG character–a reason that would need real narrative logic. I don’t see it in this case. Having said that, I would love to see the return of an occasional character from the past. Ian Chesterton is probably at the top of my list. Maybe even a Slyther…

    https://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/slyther.jpg

    #36546
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    What is it about the Celestial Toymaker?

    Is it that story that he was due to return in Season 23 of the BG series? Because it’s like some kind of weird meme; every year someone starts saying ‘they should bring the Celestial Toymaker back’. To shouts of ‘who the heck is the Celestial Toymaker??’

    The GI was brought back, I think, partly because the production team were informed fairly early on that the retrieved Web of Fear was almost certainly restorable and partly because it was appropriate, in the 50th Anniversary year, to have the Doctor face off against a BG villain.

    [And also because a disembodied entity is fairly easy to recast. 😉 ]

    If, by any chance, the three missing episodes are retrieved, then we might get the Toymaker back. Otherwise, I’m with @pedant. The chances of bringing back a one-story villain from a story with only one surviving episode, from forty-eight years ago, with the original actor now dead, are – minimal.

    @nine9, you’d better keep your fingers crossed that they find those episodes.

    #36547
    Nine9 @nine9

    @blenkinsopthebrave Well, while New Who gives many nods to the Classic Who by quotations, I really think that it should do much more and bring characters back as well. And while Moffat would need a very good reason to bring a character like that, there could always be that he does? I’m sure he would have a very good reason to do just so (which I wouldn’t know what reason would it be since I am only theorising here) and it is perhaps for us yet to find out? Logically it could be anything really that is going on as long as we’ve given an explaination to it, but… I don’t know. It was just a theory, it is just the impression that the episode gave me.

    #36549
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @bluesqueakpip Good pick up on each of the characters.  We don’t really know much about Michael Troughton’s character, so I even will question whether he was a “real” character.  Maybe he was, but he’s the trouble with the connection.

    Shona is interesting.  I like your idea that she may have kicked Dave out.  Look at that list for Christmas.  Other than her dad stopping by, she’s all alone.  It’s just her watching those movies and even progressing to a Game of Thrones marathon.  An argument could be made that every person affected by the dream crabs feels isolated and lonely for some reason.  The hope is that this experience turns them around.

    And maybe, just maybe, the dream crabs were not truly a threat that ate brains.  Maybe they were nothing more than a species that enabled community dreaming and the perceived threat was created by the dreamers.  Could Santa have initiated the community dream in an attempt to not only heal the Doctor and Clara, but also to help heal the others involved?  Is his appearance at the end of Death in Heaven a dream or reality?  He is able to open the door to the TARDIS there and even a Time Lord can’t do that.

    I guess I’m a believer that Santa is real in the Doctor’s universe.  He’s a powerful alien presence of some kind that likely has some Time Lordyish abilities.  I don’t think that they were still dreaming at the end, but I do think Santa instigated it all in an attempt to heal the participants.  It’s pretty clear from the beginning that Santa is the one who knows precisely what’s going on.  Just watch his reaction when they figure out they are dreaming and still being attacked.  Santa could be a construct, or have the ability to enter dreams himself.

    #36550
    Nine9 @nine9

    @bluesqueakpip Yes, but The Celestial Toymaker was also featured in the novelisations and comics. So technically there is more of him to be considered.

    #36551
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip  firstly you’d need to explain ‘meme’. It is a truism that the concept is poorly understood by some. So, never mind the/A Celestial or Celestail Toymaker.

    Off topic, obviously, but I recall a long forgotten editorial in an Adelaide paper (now defunct) where the writer used ‘celestail’ and the 2 am ‘editors’ -and I use this term loosely – nodded sagely, and left it in. God knows what they’d do to meme.

    #36552
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nine9

    One of life’s little mysteries, the Celestial Toymaker fan club. It’s not even as if it was a much loved story at the time.

    So, what are your other theories or thoughts on this episode? Not involving the Celestial Toymaker?

    #36553
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purofilion

    firstly you’d need to explain ‘meme’. It is a truism that the concept is poorly understood by some.

    Frankly, I think the concept of ‘meme’ is poorly understood by everybody; it’s a pseudo-scientific theory that ideas and concepts can be self-replicating units of transmission.

    But in popular terminology (according to the dictionary), it’s “an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture.”

    So ‘bring back the Celestial Toymaker’ is a meme; it’s an idea that spreads from person to person within Doctor Who fandom. I think I’ve seen it crop up in comments on the Guardian every year since I started reading @danmartinuk‘s blogs, and it is weird. Because, what? Of all the BG villains that could be brought back, they want the one that only people in their mid-fifties and above or a serious fan would even know about? The GI made more sense; it tied in with the rediscovery of a rare Patrick Troughton story.

    A rare Patrick Troughton story that people really did want to see, because as well as a chance to see Patrick Troughton, the Web of Fear introduced the character of Alastair Lethbridge-Stewart (who even the kids knew about).

    The only way the Celestial Toymaker would return would be if a writer gets a stonkingly good stand-alone idea to reintroduce the character. I can’t think of any other reason to bring him back – apart from the three missing episodes being retrieved.

    #36554
    Nine9 @nine9

    @bluesqueakpip It doesn’t have to be widely loved for someone to actually have enjoyed it, does it?

    While I do appreciate the stories, I am not such a big fanboy of the Guardians of Time, it was merely that while watching “Last Christmas”, the first impression that I had was that it was connected to The Crystal Guardian. As simple as that.

    Also, as Santa Claus’ species is listed as ‘Guardian’, one would come to the logical conclusion that he would be The Celestial Toymaker (and not any of the others) since the episode very heavily alluded to dreams and fantastical beings. And the next episode alludes to ‘magic’, which again, logically speaking magic has to do with illusion and not real magic because it doesn’t exist.

    #36555
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nine9

    real magic because it doesn’t exist

    Have you watched Battlefield? Or the Shakespeare Code?

    Any sufficiently advanced form of magic is indistinguishable from technology

    [The Seventh Doctor]

    Also, as Santa Claus’ species is listed as ‘Guardian’, one would come to the logical conclusion that he would be The Celestial Toymaker

    Where is his species listed as Guardian?

    #36558
    Nine9 @nine9

    @bluesqueakpip

    The only way the Celestial Toymaker would return would be if a writer gets a stonkingly good stand-alone idea to reintroduce the character. I can’t think of any other reason to bring him back

    Are you aware that the story is yet to be filmed and you are judging/dismissing something that hasn’t been made yet? Literally bringing anything back and/or introducing new characters has to have a good motive. Obviously. Maybe Moffat has thought of something brilliant to do just so, so really.

    #36559
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nine9

    Are you aware that the story is yet to be filmed and you are judging/dismissing something that hasn’t been made yet?

    Are you aware that you signed up six hours ago, and you haven’t posted on anything apart from the possible return of the Celestial Toymaker?

    What are your other theories or observations on Last Christmas? While people do often have favourite theories, it is usual on this site for people to make observations on more than one topic.

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