S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver

Home Forums Episodes The Eleventh Doctor S33 (7) 13 – Nightmare in Silver

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  • #9140
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @scaryb @dr-clara It reminded me of Willy Wonka (70s version), fizzy drink scene I think? That and the golden ticket. Watkins was dressed a bit like him.

    #9141
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @wolfweed Great! Have fixed the image formatting issue so it fits in the column properly. Feel free to start more as you find them.

    Everyone, if you want to add your captions to the Tom,Lis,Cyberman pic, here is where you should now go:

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/caption-competitions/crazy-captions-1/

    😀

    #9142
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – but I’m totally rubbish at theories!  And I only saw the pause between 10 & 11 in the mind-scene in this ep, because someone else on this site (oh drat, cannot find who — please raise yourself proud!) previously suggested that when the Tardis was exploding during the 10 –> 11 regeneration scene, we didn’t really know how long it took between that point, and 11 crash-landing in Amelia’s back garden.

    When I read that comment initially, I thought ‘hunh?’ — but then when in NiS there was that suspicious pause – filled with sparklies and timey-wimey graphics – I thought ‘hmmm …’.

    All that having been said, the newly minted M Smith Doctor says ‘I’m crashing!’ (if memory serves correctly), not ‘I’m exploding!’ or ‘She’s exploding!’ or ‘it’s exploding!’.  Important?  Who knows … I’m just waiting ’til Saturday.  When I fully expect to be underwhelmed and frustrated in equal measure, because I’ve always suspected that the last ep of this series will cliff-hang into the 50th.

    And worse, I suspect that any ‘truths’ that TNofD reveals, have every chance of being turned on their heads again in the 50th.  At least, it will always provide fertile ground for bonkers theorising for the next 6 months!

    #9154
    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    Totally agree with your opinion @jimthefish way back that the key to the cybermen is not their militarism but that they are a scientic and medical horror – closer to morbius than the daleks.

    I think thats why this ep didnt satisfy for many – what the cybermen need is Cronenberg in as a guest writer/director with his body horror schtick, rather than Gaiman’s whimsy…

    #9155
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot

    It’s a hive mind in here. Every now and again a theory pops op out of all the little observatons that totally nails the upcoming episode/long arc

    Yeah, right!

    I think we have a track record only slightly better than an infinite no of monkeys…! But there’s time yet 🙂

    I confidently predict the last 5 mins on Sat will be – Clara reveal, leading to gamechanger which results in massive cliffhanger to keep us all talking till the 50th… so you can rule those out for a start!

    #9158
    Anonymous @

    @haveyoufedthefish“the key to the cybermen is not their militarism but that they are a scientic and medical horror – closer to morbius than the daleks …  what the cybermen need is Cronenberg in as a guest writer/director with his body horror schtick”

    ‘A scientific and medical horror’ – oh, yes, more please!  (but then, I’m a bit sick that way)  I think therein lies my basic dissatisfaction with this episode – in previous nu-Who incarnations, although others have been ‘meh’, I thought they were scarier.  That deep-down corridor where Rose et al had to pass, and only after their passing did the carcasses come [slowly] to life, was more scary than the Zulu-ish massive in NiS.  And seeing how people became Cyberised really hit home that there were real human beings inside each one, horrifically deprived [although with faint echoes] of their basic human emotions.

    Although I’m onside with everyone about Closing Time and how annoying it was that ‘lurrve’ saved the day and stopped an upgrade; it made the Cybermen seem a bit wet.  However, perhaps the whole ‘I can upgrade myself in super-quick time” business in NiS was a riposte to Closing Time.

    (P.S. note how I can cheerfully spit out ‘Closing Time’ but cannot remember the names of the Rose-based Cyber episoses; this is because the latter pre-date my assimiliation into the dark side of theorising.  Everything that has aired since y’all snared me into your intricate web is much clearer in my memory pathweb.)

    #9161
    WhoHar @whohar

    @Shazzbot.

    Yes, I agree that sequence with the motionless Cybermen (in Rise of the Cybermen / Age of Steel two-parter) was particularly creepy. I had a (briefly) similar thought in NiS when Clara and the soldiers were walking through the stalled Cyber army but it wasn’t quite as well done.

    Closing Time.

    I received a bit of a tongue lashing from @bluesqueakpip over on the G blog when this episode came out. I used the phrase “Deus Ex Machina”, so you can imagine how the exchange went :-). Fair enough and all that, I was a bit over-zealous (aka wrong) in my criticism. In my defence, my original post was a bit, ahem, alcohol-fuelled, m’lud. There’s a lesson learned right there.

    The “love stops Cyber conversion” ending did bother me though and my fogged mind couldn’t articulate why at the time. Thinking about it since, it always struck me that if “love” (ie strong emotion) could have stopped a conversion, then surely “fear” would do the same and I imagine anyone undergoing said process would be terrified. I’ve still not resolved this satisfactorily, which is a shame as it spoilt an otherwise good episode.

    #9163
    janetteB @janetteb

    That is a good point @Shazzbot re’ the ending of Closing Time. It wasn’t love though so much as basic human instinct, but as you say, the instinct to survive is always present and can lead to some rather powerful emotions, “fear, anger, hate. There is so much I like about Closing Time but the end always diasappoints. I would have accepted it had his instinctive reaction to his son crying, (which as a parent is quite compelling) disrupted the process for long enough for the Doctor to do something to stop it. What makes the Cybermen and the process of cyberisation so frightening is the immunity to human emotions and instincts.

    I assumed that the Golden ticket was a Willy Wonka reference, in keeping with the subject, taking children to a fun park.

    Much though I love the Dark Doctor theories I don’t think that we are going to see that played out. I sometimes suspect that there is more inspiration on this site than in the corridors of the BBC. So many bonkers theories have been developed here which I would love to see in scripts. (Maybe with the exception of @blenkinsopthebrave‘s cricket one though.  🙂 it might make for an amusing prequel or skit)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #9164
    WhoHar @whohar

    @janetteb

    I’ve just conflated the two halves of your post and am now imagining the Cybermen playing cricket!

    Wouldn’t like to be the umpire in that match though.

    #9165
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whohar

    Yes, someone on the G blog once compared me to a koala. Think it might have been @jimthefish.

    For those of you who don’t know the Family Guy scene, there’s a clip:

    #9166
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whohar and @janetteb – The ending of Closing Time makes perfect sense if you go into the meta: in the Whoniverse, love is the most powerful emotion there is. Love trumps fear. Love trumps hate. It can beat Cyber conversion, it can call across the universes, and it can survive death – all canon.

    And that’s how the Whoniverse works; because the Whoniverse runs on love. Love fought for it back in the Classic Series, when the BBC tried to cancel it. Love remembered it when it was cancelled. Love wrote books, and made videos, and produced radio plays. Love brought the audience back in massive numbers when it returned. Love made RTD take the job when he thought it was doomed and made David Tennant accept the role of the Doctor. It made Steven Moffat give up a career as a Hollywood screenwriter; it makes Neil Gaiman take a scriptwriting role for (comparatively) peanuts, and it’s the reason many others:the crew, the actors and the writing team, are in this particular job.

    Love is why the Whoniverse lives. Love, in the Whoniverse, is more powerful than the rational, calculating actions of the Cybermen – the accountants and executives who totted up the budget spent and compared it with audience figures gained and decided that Doctor Who had to be converted into some machine produced soulless monstrosity. And so, in a tiny reflection of that – Craig’s love for his son wins out over Cyber Conversion. He stays human.

    It is love that keeps him from becoming a mass produced machine.

    #9167
    thommck @thommck

    @scaryb & @shazzbot I didn’t notice the pause but have heard about it since. Anyone got the time to do a screenshot? Rather than an exploding TARDIS, which isn’t really to do with regenerations, is it more likely to represent Doctor-Donna or Rose’s 10.2 version? Would love to see Donna back (even though the chances are probably nil 🙁 )

    #9169
    confuseus @confuseus

    The Emperor dun it all wrong then.  Instead of destroying whole galaxies, all he needed to do was tell his people to think about the thing they love the most.

    Job done!

    #9170
    confuseus @confuseus

    Tho to be fair, The Emperor might not have known about that.  But The Doctor did, he was there!  Why couldn’t The Doctor defeat his cyberisation process using love?  Can’t he love enough?    He didn’t even seem to try it out!

    #9171
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Interesting thoughts about this episode; and thanks @htpbdet for the great blog post.

    I actually thought at 1 point that emotions were going to do it again – when the cyberplanner remarks on the amount of emotion the Dr is feeling for 2 earth kids he hardly knows, I thought “aha! he’s going to flood his brain with emotions, think about the Time War, about companions lost etc etc”

    Why not? The cyberplanner is obviously affected by the little rush of emotion for the kids. It occured to me that the Dr knows at that point that he can win. But he chooses not to give too much of himself away/distract the cp with just enough emotions till he can zap it (an excuse for a physical manifestation of the Dr defeating it rather than the invisible “in your head” scenario?)  Or he wants to keep the cp in his mind for a little longer so he can study it.

    The reason for the chess game, and the “sacrifice your queen” scenario is because the Dr knows that the cp will renege on his promises. BUT, if the Dr sets up a bargain part way through – my queen for the kids – he has the best chance of getting the kids uncyberised.  If he just ejects the cp with aforementioned emotional flood, he still has the problem of freeing the kids. His best chance of releasing them is by engaging with the cp in his head.

    The cyberplanner is different from the rest – it seems to have a sense of self, and as people have remarked, it does seem to experience some emotions – which are not communicated to rest of the cybermen – excitement at finding itself in the giant supermall of the Dr’s brain. This is similar to the cybercontrollers of the past – the nerve centre, or hub – and  they’ve always tended towards a bit of megalomania.   I really really liked Matt’s playing of it (and am happy to sacrifice a little bit of unemotion in the cp for that!); I thought he did the creepy, sleazy, dark thing really well, beautifully lit too.  However, I also wondered if the emotion in the cp could be down to the fact that he/it was in the Dr’s brain… the influence can go both ways? Being in the Dr’s brain is what unstabilises the cp. The cp says it is in control of 49.881% of the Dr’s brain – that’s a lot of brain still under Dr’s control, possibly the most specific time-lord bits.

    We are definitely supposed to be confused occasionally as to which is which (Dr/cp) – the cp IMITATES being the Dr to Clara – that doesn’t mean he/it feels these emotions.

    Having said all that, I agree with @jimthefish and others – cybermen’s origins lie in that 60s fear/hope of what science can/should do. Interesting, that while the original cybermen could only convert humans, these have now become scavengers. They may regret that.  While I loved the instant upgrading – the writers will need to watch that in the future, or it will become annoying; maybe some things can’t be adapted to. And yes, genuinely non-emotional is VERY hard for a human being to write. Or maybe cybermen haven’t actually had emotions removed – only very deeply suppressed, which is why they react so badly when they are forced to confront them.  I seem to remember Tennant suggested that if the converted ever realised where and what they were (ie self awareness) they would go mad.

    #9172
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Yikes! Apologies – long post again (I blame @htpbdet and @jimthefish for setting me off!!)

    #9173
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @thommck @Shazzbot

    There is definitely something going on between 10 and 11, which doesn’t happen in the portrayal of the others. There’s no reason why they should run it that way unless there’s something going on there. Which takes me back to that extremely violent regeneration. Or maybe (as Thommck suggested) the gap is to do with 10.2

    My reasoning is slightly influenced by knowing that Tennant is back for the 50th, and is possibly the only previous Dr to be brought back. Also by @jimthefish saying that they only completed filming on the last bit of the finale a few weeks ago. That means that Tennant would have been available for sneaky filming as he was being much touted for 50th at that point, with on-set photos released to prove it.  So his incarnation could be more central to the resolution than we think. <be still my beating fangirl heart!!>

    #9174
    janetteB @janetteb

    @bluesqueakpip I “loved” your post and I humbly take back my criticism of the ending of Closing Time. It is love that has kept the Doctor on our screens and protected the integrity of the show. I also loved your cybermen-accountant/exec analagy. Quite apt. May love save the Doctor from cyberisation for ever.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #9175
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Why couldn’t The Doctor defeat his cyberisation process using love?  Can’t he love enough?  

    @confuseus – because he has a sliver of ice in his heart, remember? 🙂

    And also because he has a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of his universe; the Doctor’s world-view is very much the Twenty-first century world-view; we live in an uncaring, mechanistic universe and it’s not going to save itself. 🙂

    The Doctor can’t defeat the Cyber-controller with love. The Doctor’s reached the point in his arc where he can’t save himself; his love for other people is so carefully walled in that Clara knows he’d rather die than express it – and he hates himself. Like the little boy in the Snow Queen, he’s now reached the point where it’s other people who need to save the Doctor.

    It’s not the Doctor who saves everyone at the end; Porridge brings in the Imperial starship and blows up the planet. Everyone’s noticed that Clara doesn’t save the Doctor – but the Doctor doesn’t save the Doctor, either. He gets saved by his mirror image; the mirror image who reluctantly accepts his responsibilities and then flies off – alone.

     

    #9176
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    It’s not the Doctor who saves everyone at the end; Porridge brings in the Imperial starship and blows up the planet. Everyone’s noticed that Clara doesn’t save the Doctor – but the Doctor doesn’t save the Doctor, either. He gets saved by his mirror image; the mirror image who reluctantly accepts his responsibilities and then flies off – alone.

    Oh, I like that. Nearly as much as I like the image of you as a koala (as per family guy) LMAO 🙂

    *See also my post above re why the Dr zapped the cp rather than flooding it with love (But I also like the ice sliver – forgot about that. So Snow Queen meets Mary Poppins and Pinochio via Frankenstein and Dracula?)

    #9177
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    Perhaps there’s nothing more to the gap between 10 and 11 than the nature of 10’s death? Particularly violent change to 11 due to all the radiation.

    @scaryb However, I also wondered if the emotion in the cp could be down to the fact that he/it was in the Dr’s brain… the influence can go both ways?

    That’s what I thought, being a new/unknown type of brain to convert.

    #9178
    WhoHar @whohar

    @bluesqueakpip

    Well you did go off on one a bit Koala girl :-). But you eeminded me of Chekhov’s Gun which I’d completely forgotten about so all good.

    Like the meta reference – it would be interesting to put that to Gareth Roberts; not sure if he considered this sort of thing or not.

    Given the, ahem, neat ending to NiS, I thought there’d be more discussion about DEM on the G blog.

    #9179
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @thommck – here’s the screen shot:

    #9180
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Re: the gap between 10 & 11, it looks like a pair of hands overlaying a face, and the collar looks different than 10 or 11.

    Here it is in HD:

    #9181
    janetteB @janetteb

    Not especially relevant to NiS but this is really the last thread for bonker theorising before the weekend. Currently re watching Snowmen looking for clues before the weekend. Two rather minor details I’ve noticed. Both of no significance. The Montague family motto is “Let equity be the rule of our actions.” (according to one website anyway.) The other is the name Captain Latimer. Latimer is a Reviers name, another very very obscure Cumbria reference? The Captain is a mirror character for the Doctor, disengaged at first, unable to care for his children, he is made to relate to them by Clara’s death.

    What really strikes me watching this is Clara’s personality. It is the most rounded of the three Clara’s and contrasts strongly with the current incarnation. I think the reason people find it hard to relate to Clara is her blankness. Her character is lacking but not in the other two incarnations. IT seems as though there is a linked consciousness between the three incarnations.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

     

    #9182
    Anonymous @

    @thommck and @ardaraith — that also looks suspiciously like the Grandfather from RoA too if you ask me…

    #9183
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Looks a teeny tiny bit like Omega. Or is that just me?

     

    Omega with helmet

    #9184
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @jimthefish – Oh, indeed it does!  And as @bluesqueakpip points out, they both look strangely like Omega. curiouser and curiouser

    #9185
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Damn! All I can see is 2 exploding Tardises, LOL!

    Rorschach ink blots for Whovians, hehe

    #9186
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @ardaraith @thommck @jimthefish @bluesqueakpip

    I was quite excited about this but, boringly, when you watch it again (it’s at 18:16 on iPlayer) I think it’s just Tennant regenerating, as viewed from above, with the left and right firey glows coming from his hands, and the middle glow his head. In the middle of the two Smiths you can see his leg and foot, and you can kinda make out the line of his jacket above that. 🙁

    #9187
    Anonymous @

    @craig — actually I think you’re probably right … but it’s a good excuse for another rewatch, I think…

    #9190
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @craig        Yes, I think you are right. Its just the Tennant regeneration.

    There are though two clear gaps: what happened between McGann and Eccleston and what happened between Tennant regenerating and Smith crash-landing in Eleventh Hour.

    It would be timey wimey for Moffat to riff on either, but especially so if we come to find why the TARDIS crashed in the first place while or just after his regeneration stabilised.

    #9191
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Here’s a still from Tennant’s regeneration which fits.

    tennant-regeneration

    #9194
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @janetteb       Not being confrontational, but I don’t understand why everyone finds this Clara blank or non-reactive.

    I know it is, as @jimthefish says mostly subjective but…

    If she is, as I suspect she is, a product of some time scatterring which is about to happen to her, it means, in that ghastly paradoxical way, that she will be everywhere but without necessarily all of the memories that she should have. We know this Clara does not remember Daleks or Snowmen but that does not mean that she is not diminished in some way by whatever makes her the Impossible Girl.

    She does not strike me as blank – quite the opposite in fact. She is always on guard, always watchful, always careful – if her purpose is to save the Doctor then that is what you would expect, surely? She puts his needs first because that is her mission, she is always secondary.

    She cares a lot about things that happen – her behaviour constantly is one of worry and concern, for her charges, the Doctor, the girl to be sacrificed, her mother, Skaldak, Emma, the crooked man, the TARDIS, Rachael Stirling, Alice, Porridge, her army charges…but mostly the Doctor. She cries in pain; she feels what others feel and expresses empathy wonderfully – her scenes with David Warner and Jessica Raine in particular spring to mind. She cares what happens to the Doctor and she watches. She steps up to whatever task he requires without question (usually). And, apart from last week, she has saved him everytime. (And, indeed, you could argue that Porridge only activated the teleport function because his encounter with her, Clara, had given him hope)

    Okay – she does not step out of the TARDIS and go all bug-eyed with amazement – but, so what? Not everyone shows their inner feelings – but watch her eyes, they are alive with excitement, grief, joy, energy and empathy.

    I think she is rather incredible actually – if she is what I think she is. (If she turns out to be a trap or a Zygon, I will probably hate her!! 🙁 )

    And after whatever timey wimey paradoxical Moffat trademark thing occurs in the finale, presumably going forward she will be the fusion of all three Claras, plus perhaps thousands more?, and that will be an even harder task for JLC to pull off.

    Personally, I cannot wait – because I think she is more than capable as an actress. I am already slightly excited by the Rose and Clara meeting – the reverse of the School Reunion Sarah/Rose encounter perhaps?

    #9195
    thommck @thommck

    @ardaraith @thommck @jimthefish @bluesqueakpip, I’m in agreement with @craig. Looks like 10 regenerating. Why it was included and not on others is another (probably equally unimportant)
    question!

    #9196
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck – never mind. As @jimthefish says, it’s a good excuse for another rewatch…

    #9197
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @thommck et al. It was included as it’s 11’s creation; all ‘his’ experiences stem from that moment. Probably. Did everyone think it was something more?

    @htpbdet Not being confrontational, but I don’t understand why everyone finds this Clara blank or non-reactive. She does not strike me as blank – quite the opposite in fact.

    Yes. Her scene about viewing the entirety of Earth’s existence was anything but that.

    She’s also Jim the Fish. Last chance theory!

    #9198
    janetteB @janetteb

    @HTBDET I did not mean my comment to be a criticism in any way. I think JLC is doing a fantastic job of portraying the differing aspects of the personality in the different incarnations. Blank was possibly not the best word, Current Clara seems to me to be undeveloped as a personality, much in the same way I was when I first left home having been massively over protected. She appears not to have lived, not to have had an opportunity to develop tastes, preferences, likes, dislikes. IT is as though she is discovering herself, what she is capable of as she travels. Victorian Clara appeared to be very conscious of who she was and what she was capable of. She has the confidence to disobey the Doctor, something that current Clara so obviously lacks. For an actor I would think that current Clara is a very challenging role and is the reason why some viewers have failed to “connect” with her character. She is only learning to connect with herself. This is why I think she is a construct, human yes but not a “natural born” human and I don’t find the mystery of Clara has gone boring at all. Like you I cannot wait to find out just how or what she is. I think she might well end up being one of my favourite companions. (provided she doesn’t get love sick over the Doctor that is.:) )

    Cheers

    Janette

    #9202
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @janetteb        She has the confidence to disobey the Doctor, something that current Clara so obviously lacks

    I guess that is my central issue. Why does she need such confidence?

    And I am not sure she does not disobey him anyway – she certainly does by producing the leaf because that was not how he wanted to solve that crisis, she has to convince him it is she who should confront Skaldak when he does not want her to go, she has to talk over him and communicate telepathically to him to get him to realise that the crooked man is just a lonely frightened lover lost in a strange world, she wanders through the TARDIS when she must know he would prefer her to stay put in the console room, she pushes him away with the sonic screwdriver to use the chair to stop Diana Rigg’s Mrs G and her rocket, she convinces him to take the kids on the trip in the TARDIS and she slaps his face not sure if he is the Doctor when she does it and she tells him to butt out of her discussion with Porridge about marriage.

    What constitutes “disobey”?

    Sure, she might agree to stay put when he suggests it – that just makes her sensible and not an idiot, which many companions are forced to be for plot points. Wandering off when you are told to stay put does not make you interesting or induce empathy. Well, not for me anyway.

    I dont see this Clara as any shrinking violet. Nor do I see her as particularly more or less obediant/defiant/self-willed than Asylum Clara or Snowmen Clara. Neither of them knew who he was to start with – yet Snowmen Clara knew Pond was a word that would get his attention: which suggests that certian things trigger extra memories for the Impossible Girl. This seems to happen to current clara at odd times – like end of Journey and that odd speech about not going looking for his name.

    And on a simple basis, once she, as a human (if she is), sees the birth and death of Earth in one go, really is there anything likely to take your breath away after that? She was full of wonder in Rings and astonished but brave in relation to Skaldak.

    I know there is no companion handbook – but, really, Clara seems to me to be that rare thing: an unique and fascinating one. Just as Rory, Donna and Rose were before her in Nu-Who. (Sorry all Amy lovers but except as a little girl she just never ever worked for me – I never cared what happened to her)

    I totally agree – I don’t know what the Moffat intention is with Clara and the Doctor, but please GOD, let it not be a love affair.

    #9203
    Anonymous @

    @satsumajoe

    She’s also Jim the Fish. Last chance theory!

    eh?

    #9207
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @jimthefish He means Clara as Jim the Fish =D As referenced in the IA and the minisodes “River we have got the wrong fish!” But I’m sure you know that

    #9208
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @jimthefish Oh. Well. Erm, well, timey wimey explanation? She’s future/alternate you? If the ‘eh?’ was also for the last chance bit, before Saturday dashes/confirms theory of… Fishness.

    I just want an episode including him/her/you really.

    #9211
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb“There is definitely something going on between 10 and 11, which doesn’t happen in the portrayal of the others. There’s no reason why they should run it that way unless there’s something going on there.”

    Of course, it could have been done that way just to wind up people on sites like this, who noticed it and wondered why it was portrayed that way.  😉

    If not, though, why show just that one regeneration?  @satsumajoe says “It was included as it’s 11′s creation; all ‘his’ experiences stem from that moment.”  I see that point, but I feel it de-emphasises that the Doctor is essentially the same person, in that he has the same memories, since the beginning.

    That having been said, I wondered why 10 was so reluctant to regenerate.  ‘I don’t want to go!’ he cried.  Because he’s not going anywhere, really.  At the time I thought it was indulgence of David Tennant the actor by the production team, bordering on the criminal.  Now, though, what with theories about ‘Dark Doctor 11’ that people have posited here, I’m wondering if it was something else … this is why I love my assimilation to bonkers theorising!

    #9213
    Anonymous @

    @HTPDBET, @phaseshift, @jimthefish and everyone else who knows pre-2005 Who well:

    Was 10’s reluctance to regenerate something completely new for the Doctor?  Or was there historical precedent for it?  (I understand from your kind teachings that a previous version was forced to regen by the Time Lords, so that might count as ‘unwilling’ but it’s not the same … I don’t think.)

    I’m trying to put that ‘I don’t want to go!’ moment in perspective as if I didn’t know Tennant was coming back (for the TNotD and/or the 50th anniversary show).  Because of course knowing the latter opens up major new theorising avenues.

    #9214
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

     At the time I thought it was indulgence of David Tennant the actor, bordering on the criminal. 

    Definitely not that: on the now sadly departed Confidential, it was clear that that moment was scripted and directed. In fact, the performance shown wasn’t the saddest; they decided his best shot at the line would be too upsetting.

    So it’ll be interesting to find out whether RTD alone scripted that. At that point he was consulting with Steven Moffat over the direction Moffat wanted to go in. Was that final line scripted from a note?

    I’d love to know how far in advance Tennant was booked for the 50th. 🙂

    #9216
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot They’re generally not keen on it; but Ten’s semi-hysterical sheer funk was completely new. At the time I presumed it was because he, unlike the others, had been told long, long in advance. The others generally had regenerations along the lines of ‘crap, just fallen off Jodrell Bank/been fatally poisoned/got shot’. 🙂

    #9217
    Anonymous @

    @Bluesqueakpip – I know, I saw that Confidential (RIP) and I thought those extra takes alone were worth the entire Confidential production outlay.

    Speaking of Confidential … the ‘Cast & Crew’ Proclaimers rendition credited Confidential.  Every time I feel a bit sad I watch this again and I’m instantly uplifted:

    #9218
    Anonymous @

    @htpbdet – arrrgh!  Even with the mnemonic ‘How To Punish Bad Daleks – ExTerminate’ I still mucked up your moniker in my comment 9213  http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-13-nightmare-in-silver/page/8/#post-9213

    Sorry!  ‘How To Punish Dead Badgers Even Temporarily’ doesn’t have quite the same frisson.  🙂

     

    #9219
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @Shazzbot Ah, see that got me thinking! Had wondered about the focus on it and the lack of previous, considering they’re all the same bloke with a facelift, but it could be a hybrid of what Cyberiad took over (bit like that battle with Morbius which @htpbdet mentioned somewhere) and those memories the memory-chowing planet gobbled up. I do think some, maybe a fair chunk, were taken then.

    That could be completely wrong 😀

    Perhaps that regeneration created Jim The Fish? I’ll leave it now.

    #9221
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    Oh, and I struggle with the name as well. He’s that person blogging dem (damn!) excellent TARDIStimes?

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