S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor (part 2)

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  • #11324
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Just a continuation of the The Name of the Doctor topic thread, which has now grown to over 1000 posts, which I have discovered causes issues because of limits on database queries.

    You can read part 1 of this thread here:

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-14-the-name-of-the-doctor/

    #11351
    MTGradwell @mtgradwell

    @timeloop, @whohar, @scaryb

    Timeloop: Has anyone here metioned that the Doctor knows all of his future because he went in his Timestream (same as reading it in a book I presume)?  …
     WhoHar: If the Doc has been in his own timestream – it implies both he and Clara now know the Doc’s future. Unless he somehow didn’t look.

    ScaryB: 2. Maybe there is no future – Clara says: “I saw all of you – 11 faces”

    Yes, I agree. There is no future, or only a very limited future, in the timestream that we saw in the last episode. Trenzalore is the site of the fall of the ELEVENTH – not the twelfth or thirteenth. ELEVENTH died, and his Tardis became his tomb. Therefore in that particular timestream there was no twelfth or thirteenth for Clara to see (unless, as I theorize, Hurt is an alternate twelfth who regenerated inside his own timestream and is permanently trapped inside it, and scattered over it in much the same way that Clara and the GI are; in which case Clara failed to spot him because the memory of him is well repressed).
    If the Doctor escapes from this predicament (and I’m guessing he will), it will result in a new timeline, a new future in which he escapes off-planet. In this new future he will have a new tomb, one probably not on Trenzalore, and the tomb which is on Trenzalore will disappear.  Still the Doctor will be careful never to return there, just in case. Best not to tempt fate. And he will hope that the new location for his tomb is a better kept secret than the old one. This new future will only Materialize after the Doctor and Clara have escaped from the timestream, so his timestream will only expand to include future Doctors then.

    #11352
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @mtgradwell I’m still sticking wth my idea that it’s Tennant’s time stream, with Tennant now the Eleventh, now that Hurt has appeared.

    Still, doesn’t explain how Clara could then be in Matt’s epiosdes such as AotD and The Snowmen, but with a bit of Timey Wimey I’m sure they can sort that out. 😀

    But I like your idea of a new timestream. It fits in with Moffat’s comments about not looking back, but looking forward. He better not do too much of a Star Trek on us and have some huge change like Vulcan being destroyed though. I’m still angry about that 👿

    #11353
    Anonymous @

    @mtgradwell , @craig

    Yeah, I think I’m with you guys on a new timestream, and for the same reasons.

    Craig – re:  “some huge change like Vulcan being destroyed though. I’m still angry about that”

    Why, did you not buy cancellation insurance for your holiday?  🙂

    #11354
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    No! I was planning on destroying it myself! Mwahahahaha 😈

    #11355
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Yes, I think there’ll be a new timestream. There are too many clues that in the current timestream, the Doctor’s life ends in the very near future.

    Possibly, in fact, the records state that it ended on Trenzalore – when he went into his own timestream after the defeat of the Great Intelligence, trying to rescue a companion. And then never returned.

    Which is why there wasn’t a body in his tomb. 🙂

    #11356
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @craig – no blowing up the planet!

    😀

    #11357
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @craig

     I’m still sticking wth my idea that it’s Tennant’s time stream, with Tennant now the Eleventh, now that Hurt has appeared.

    Oooh I like that theory, but does that mean he was actually Eleven before jumping into the timestream, but the act changed history so Hurt appeared?

    Alternatively, ‘Clara prime’ who we presume has been knocking about in series 7.2 may be Clara clone, and the person she saw in the History of the Time War was either Hurt Doctor or one of the previous incarnations whom she recognised in some kind of timey wimey way.

    *thinks, when is the Doctor Who piece coming on Newsnight?*

     

    #11358
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Well, I was going to reply and was just adding references to other people when I accidentally clicked on craigs name…………….AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRÄGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH-.-“””””” To annoyed now.

    Basically I don’t agree. There is more future and the Doctor will or will not die again at Trenzalore depending on how Moffat has planned to get them both out of that time-stream. The Doctor will change his future because he has seen it [as seen with Amy]. I will stick with that. Hurt is Nine. Mental block referred to Clara or to Nine & Time War and I’d rather the latter. Latter also  might be blocked with that awful machine that can turn him human.

    If I don’t answer I agree and have nothing to add or do not disagree enough. I will not participate as much without new, substantial information because I feel like everything is already in the open. I don’t want to ruin the fun for everybody who enjoys loose theorising, so I will just peek into this thread now and then.

    Oh, and I agree with @scaryb a like button would be nice  to state an opinion.

    One thing we could come up with is how Moffat plans to get them out. I feel like that is in our reach to crack open. You have seen and analysed his work for so long now. What do you think?

    #11396
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    Hi, y’all. I have a toddler who doesn’t sleep convenient hours, so I am often many episodes behind everyone. I couldn’t participate until I caught up. Now that I’ve finally seen The Name of the Doctor, I have stuff to say! Though you seem to have said most of it — 1000+ replies OMG. Which I did read, actually.

    I’ll start by saying that y’all are brilliant. 🙂 I tend to prefer analysis of past episodes rather than speculation on the future ones, but I am enjoying all the bonkers theories in this thread.

    There was some discussion about how the Doctor could touch supposedly non-corporeal River — well, I’m still deciding what I think about @ardaraith‘s Clara=River theory, but since Clara was effectively inside the Doctor at that point, if River = ClaraEcho then perhaps that’s how. Alternately, the Doctor has shown occasional bits of telepathy (#10 in The Girl in the Fireplace, for example), so perhaps River only intended to telepathically link to Clara but the Doctor picked up on it. (Susan had strong psychic powers, maybe inherited from her grandfather?)  If telepathy/psi powers are part of the Time Lords’ genetic heritage, and River is part Time Lord, i t seems plausible.

    Another theory for how River knows the Doctor’s name: isn’t it written on his cradle? And, of course, every time this question comes up my husband quips, “he told her in bed, of course!” because it seems a likely post-coital revelation . . . 😉 (I saw that @jimthefish has also had this thought.)

    In regards to Moffat rewriting or neutering the canon, have you read this bit from teatimebrutality? Apparently there’s officially no canon to be rewritten. 🙂 Though certainly they’ve mucked about with continuity loads of times.

    @Shazzbot said something about wanting a more ordinary companion, rather than these “impossible girl” “crack in wall girl” types. I agree! I think that focusing on Clara’s impossibleness meant we had fewer opportunities to get to know her as a person rather than a plot point. Instead of focusing on the companion, we focused on the Doctor trying to puzzle out the companion. This makes for a different story, and I personally prefer a little bit more time spent on the interpersonal stuff. I’m not talking about romance, either — I miss the kind of friendships we got to see with the classic series companions. (I still miss Ian and Barbara.)

    @rema and @bluesqueakpip talked a bit about a female Doctor.  Have you seen this alternate history bit?

    @juniperfish nice Isis/Osiris theory. I’m also compelled to point out that a significant part of Osiris’ anatomy goes missing, which Isis has to reconstruct. Could account for some of the “asexual” way the early Doctor is portrayed. 😉

    I’d thought the TARDIS changed on the inside after Angels in Manhattan because the Doctor grieved the loss of his companions and wanted to TARDIS to look different — he didn’t want the reminder. Now you all are making me wonder if it’s a sign of the Clara/GI rewrite.

    @pennyintheair “Blood calls to blood” + all that stuff about the river of time — what if River and Clara are related via participation in the time stream? River’s conception wove in Time Vortex energy and now Clara has entered a time stream; maybe the “blood” is actually “time.”

    #11399
    Anonymous @

    Hello @curvedspace and welcome to our bonkers theorising site!  Remarkable achievement to have read through all the posts to date, and retained your sanity.  😀

    “focusing on Clara’s impossibleness meant we had fewer opportunities to get to know her as a person rather than a plot point.”

    You phrased it so much better than me.  🙂  And I do agree with you.  Hopefully, we have dispensed with the ‘impossibleness’ of Clara and can get on with her being simply a companion.  That might have to wait until after the 50th anniversary show, though …

    Now, off to look at the links you provided … good luck with the toddler …

    #11400
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    @Shazzbot, it did melt my brain a bit. But I can be fiendishly nerdish sometimes. Plus it was so interesting I couldn’t stop!

    #11409
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @curvedspace Welcome, glad you’re enjoying the site. And thanks for that link to the teatimebrutality blog on “canon”. Hadn’t seen that before. Was a great read. Cheers!

    #11410
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    @craig, glad you liked the link. My compliments on your avatar. The 80s Flash Gordon movie was some of my first sci-fi; I can quote the dialogue of certain scenes by heart. Great costumes, great music, terrible movie, but I love it anyway.

    #11411
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @curvedspace Thank you. That is actually me, one of my better fancy dress outfits! I love it too, it is a classic of kitsch.

    #11449
    Peargrins @peargrins

     

    What a great Docotor Who site!  So happy to have found it!

    What a spectacular episode!   One intriguing point among many was River Song’s statement about still being there if Clara was really dead…”spoilers”.  Did anyone else notice that River’s identity was given to us on an embroidered leaf, and Clara’s life seems to be symbolized by a leaf?  Maybe Moffat just likes leaves, but it has me wondering what the connection between these two characters really is…!  Oh, I’m not good at waiting!

    #11453
    Anonymous @

    Hello @peargrins, and welcome to our happy home of bonkers theorising!  Have you had a chance to review the first part of this episode thread  http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-14-the-name-of-the-doctor/ ?

    Please also check out the marvellous writing of our commenters on the blogs (on the right of the main page, below the recent posts), and don’t forget we have Caption Competitions!  http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/category/caption-competitions/

    PS that whole leaf thing can’t be coincidence.  On the other hand, is Steven Moffat slyly introducing memes which don’t have a connected payoff, but which delight us bonkers theorisers no end?!

    #11466
    Peargrins @peargrins

    Hello @Shazzbot. Many thanks for the kind welcome!  looking forward to looking through your links!

    #11467
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    From last thread…

    The ‘Clara Oswald’ anagram by @whisht

    DW now L; CALs OS Aria” (still waiting for mentions of Aria!!)

    The one played by Dalek claricle? Not explicitly mentioned but still 🙂 That reminds me, was there bonkers theorising on the music used and referenced throughout the series? If there was, which is probably a safe bet, I’ve not seen it.

    #11471
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi and welcome @peargrins (nice avatar!)

    ooh theorise away on the ol’ leaf thing… there’s meat on the.. erm… branch..(?) for that…

    [hm, mixed metaphor again, apologies, no good with words]

    ;¬)

    and @satsumajoe – oh I am SO waiting for Aria to be mentioned (and yes “Love is a rebellious bird”).

    But anagrams come first (for the writer to get to the words/name we go backwards from), so it seems a tad unlikely…..

    But if Moffat says

    “ohh yes, I was sitting down and thought what can that chracter be called? Well it was for the 50th so I went all Latin and thought opera would be a good idea, so then wrote a weird awkward phrase”

    then I’ll buy everyone a drink

    ;¬)

    #11475
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    My daughter (almost 3) just woke up from her nap oddly. I guess she was dreaming, but she sat straight up and said, “Mama, I don’t know where I am!” @_@;;

    She doesn’t watch the show.

    #11478
    Whisht @whisht

    blimey @curvedspace – hope she’s fine (and not uploaded anywhere).

    she wasn’t holding a leaf was she…?

    :¬ 0

    #11486
    Brynwe @brynwe

    I have a question, was River mentioned as dead before this episode or was it just revealed in this one?  I was so upset when I found out!

    #11487
    MTGradwell @mtgradwell

    @brynwe – River died in the very first adventure in which she appeared, the two-parter Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. But that was way back in 2008 and with a different Doctor, so it’s understandable that you didn’t know. Also, she’s never let the fact of her death slow her down. Because she and the Doctor keep meeting in the wrong order, she has in fact been very much alive during all their subsequent encounters except this latest one, and there’s no real in-story reason why she shouldn’t turn up alive again in future episodes.

    #11488
    Whisht @whisht

    Brilliant!

    Welcome @brynwe – and thanks @mtgradwell for a completely factual and informed welcome to Brynwe – but only in Dr Who could something that factual could be quite that confusing!

    ;¬)

    Not that I have a better answer (MTGradwell is as ever right).

    Brynwe – I don’t know where to watch it (I mean, i wouldn’t be so gauche as to suggest googling “silence in the library watch online” or anything) but its worth watching.

    oh, and feel free to theorise wildly about what may happen – as you’ll see where you first posted I was completely wrong, but had fun doing it!

    ;¬)

    #11491
    PennyInTheAir @pennyintheair

    Hi @peargrins 🙂

    It does seem Moffat likes leaves lately. If there is a connection between the embroidered leaf, and Clara’s leaf,  maybe it means there is a chance we will see River again someday. (crosses fingers)

    Peargrins: Maybe Moffat just likes leaves

    Who knows? Maybe the leaves are a metaphor for the companions. The Doctor is the tree. When he is leafless (traveling alone), he seems cold, empty, joyless. When he has companions with him, he’s  more boisterous, adventuresome. He’s  just more alive.

    Like the changing of the seasons, the Doctor (tree)  is always there, stalwart and true. Alone in winter (leafless/companionless), he’s barren and cold. In spring (a companion joins him on his adventures), he’s lush and green, youthful again. In summer (the companion grows and matures from traveling with the doctor). In fall (the companion leaves, either of their own volition; Martha. Or a less happy circumstance; Donna.) Then it’s back to winter where we wait for the cycle to begin again.

    Or, sometimes maybe a leaf really is just a leaf. 🙂

    PennyInTheAir

     

    #11492
    Brynwe @brynwe

    @mtgradwell and @whisht  I have Netflix so I am able to watch it.  I just haven’t had the chance to see all of them yet, but now that it is the summer and most of my tv shows are in reruns, I can catch up a bit.  I’ve only seen a few of the Tennant ones, including the one where he dies, but I’ve seen all of the Matt Smith ones.  I’ve seen one of the Eccleston (sp?) ones, too.  I’ve been trying to record all the Christmas episodes off of BBC so I don’t have to buy them off of Itunes.

    Poor, poor River.  Their scene at the end was very touching.  I loved it.

    I know a lot of people don’t like Clara but I like how the Clara plot paid off.

    #11501
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @Peargrins @Brynwe @PennyInTheAir (sorry it is a bit late in your case, right?) Hello and welcome!@Peargrins  Love your picture =) !

    @PennyInTheAir Nice what you did with the leaf there!

    #11521
    Brynwe @brynwe

    I’m so sorry!  I forgot to thank everyone for welcoming me!  Err. I was so tired yesterday.  I’ve been rather sick lately.

    #11568
    Peargrins @peargrins

    @whisht, @pennyintheair ( great name!),  @timeloop,  many thanks for the kind welcomes!   @pennyintheair, loved your poetic leaf metaphor!  We can still hope it has enough significance to bring River back a time or two…Oh, will I miss her!

    #11583
    ColdSnow @coldsnow

    @whisht: Thanks for the clarification (Spoilers vs. speculations). One of the reasons I like the series is, that it gives so many “clues” one can use for wild theories 🙂 Even if at the end the clues may not be important.

    But am I the only one that thinks the “Clara transforming into Rose” moment indicates a strong connection between the two?

     

    #11615
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi @coldsnow – to be honest I haven’t read anyone else mentioning that moment, so maybe everyone’s missed it…?

    looks like everyone’s going to be tied up with speculatorising on the next doctor over on that thread for a bit, until we get back to the 50th.

    Unless…. Bilie Piper for the next Doctor…??!??!

    ;¬)

    #13572
    Anonymous @

    Is it just me, or did the Doctor seem majorly surprised/shocked to see DrHurt in his timestream? It’s at the 0:33 mark in this clip.

    #16911
    donjuan @donjuan

    in this episode river song said she was connected to clara. well i just watched the forest of the dead where we meet river the first time. in the computer simulation in that episode everyone has 2 kids one girl and one boy and they all look the same. well at the end of the episode river is in the computer simulation and she has 3 kids. the 2 that always where in the simulation and one other.  a girl with dark hair. it makes me wonder if that is her real daughter and somehow she i in there with her. you know since she was all split up in the doctors time stream. and if she is rivers daughter the she is the doctors too. let me know what you think.

    #20388
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    Just in time to coincide with release of the trailer, this week we’re discussing this episode again. Previous comments are above, but really start here:

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-14-the-name-of-the-doctor/

    #20400
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    The prequel to the episode

    #20421
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    As we’re all happily discussing the trailer, I’m not sure how much attention this final rewatch is going to get. Truthfully, we’ve already managed over a thousand posts on this episode.

    So, on with the rewatch:
    In common with Steven Moffat’s stories this series, this starts with a cold opening that’s in a different time-zone to the current Doctor. Which makes me wonder if that’s the theme; everything, everywhen is now affecting/being affected by the Doctor. His entire life has been leading up to The Day of The Doctor. And The Day of The Doctor has affected his entire life.

    A reminder that Gallifrey was full of perfectly ordinary people doing ordinary jobs; we start in a TARDIS repair shop. Some nutter is nicking a faulty TARDIS.

    And into Clara’s voice over – the Clara who’s scattered throughout time and space, always trying to save the Doctor. We’ve seen Hartnell, now we have C. Baker, T. Baker, McCoy, Pertwee, McGann, Troughton, Davison, and finally Smith.

    I still think Clara’s mystery isn’t quite over. The prequel has the Doctor describing her as ‘too perfect’, and here she says ‘I was born to save the Doctor’.

    The Doctor has ‘Clara’, the GI has ‘Clarence’. Clarence is a trap, fed with information that will bring the Doctor to Trenzalore. Clara is self-designed to keep the Doctor alive – but for what? And is she self-designed?

    The Doctor has a secret he will take to the grave. And it is discovered. Moffat’s signature trick; a seemingly obvious statement that is in fact a bit of word-play. It’s not the secret, it’s the grave that’s been discovered.

    And a nice bit of comedy with Strax and his weekend off. He spends it fighting in the capital of the pub fight – Glasgow.

    And the Whispermen and their cheery couplets. Followed by some nice lighting and camerawork to imply the dream-like nature of the Conference Call.

    Clara acting as Nanny, making a souffle. Or trying to.

    The souffle is the recipe.

    Which again, hints that Clara is a ‘recipe’. Is Clara-from-Blackpool the original recipe? Or are all the Clara’s made from a ‘recipe’ we haven’t seen yet?

    It also emphases Clara’s Mum’s habit of saying things that will be helpful to the grown-up Clara; the one who has to step into the Doctor’s time-line.

    River and Clara meeting: River greets Madame Vastra by name, but doesn’t say a word about Clara. She doesn’t start off by giving her the Frosty Glare of Death – rather she appears to be waiting for Clara to speak.

    Given River’s time travelling nature, I’d suggest she knows perfectly well who Clara is – but needs to know when Clara is. The surprise comes when Clara is introduced as the Doctor’s current Companion. Her face freezes when Clara says that she didn’t know ‘Professor Song’ was a woman. Oh, and River’s still looking for ‘when’ clues; ‘The Doctor might have mentioned me’ is also encouraging Clara to say ‘we’ve met’. I think an earlier River met a later Clara – the River we’re meeting, after all, is the one to whom all this is history.

    And a Steven Moffat mood whiplash special – after the tense drama of Jenny being murdered, Strax and Vastra captured, and the GI delivering a threat to the Doctor, Clara wakes up to discover the Doctor playing blind man’s bluff. Which is a trick; the kids used it to slip out to the cinema. The subtext is practically waving a little flag. 🙂

    I think the music playing as the Doctor is told he has to go to his grave is a variation on ‘This is Gallifrey’. Lovely addition to the emotion of this scene and lovely acting from Matt Smith, playing a Doctor who is quite desperately trying not to burst into tears.

    The Doctor’s weakness and his strength – his Companions. This is something I really hope they’re going to deal with at the Fiftieth, because it’s becoming clearer and clearer that if you’re friends with the Doctor, you might as well paint a big, fat target on your back. In Series 7 we had Amy and Rory being kidnapped by the Daleks, and now Vastra, Jenny and Strax being kidnapped by the GI. That’s five Companions in one series. I’m not even counting Clara (who can manage two dead Companions all by herself).

    Okay, question. Does the TARDIS fight the destination because the Doctor’s crossing his own time-line? Or does she fight it because she’s not going to willingly take him to his death? That crack in the TARDIS window…

    May I just say that I’ve always wanted to see the TARDIS enter atmosphere with a heat-shield? Nice to see that someone else had the same thing on their wishlist. 😀

    Hmmm… I wonder if Trenzalore is the aftermath of the massive battle we’ve seen clips of in the trailer?

    I do love the Whispermen couplets, so to repeat:

    This man must fall, as all men must/
    The fate of all is always dust.
    The man who lies will lie no more/
    When this man lies at Trenzalore.

    Clearly Matt’s TARDIS – we get a lovely shot of exactly the same crack in the window at 00:20. The frontage (police box) has become separated from the ‘basic TARDIS mode’ that we saw at the beginning of the episode; Strax, Vastra and Jenny are all in a kind of vestibule between the Police Box frontage and the real TARDIS door.

    I see you have repaired your pet.

    Nice way to re-establish the GI’s character in one line.

    Welcome to the resting place of the cruel tyrant, the slaughterer of the ten billion, and the vessel of the final darkness.

    Hmmm… it’s just occurred to me that this is very much the way that the Gallifreyans might see The Doctor. “Fear me. I’ve killed them all.”

    Part Two to follow.

    #20429
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Hiya,

    The thought that the humongous TARDIS is foreshadowing the day of the Doctor big time just crossed my mind.

    Cheers,
    Timeloop

     

    #20438
    Anonymous @

    Best episode of series 7. I like at the end how John Hurt appears.

    #20441
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Part Two

    Doctor Who, tomb raider. Instead of Doctor, Amy, River trying to get into the Pandorica, here we’ve got Doctor, Clara, River trying to get into the TARDIS via some catacombs.

    So, how come I met your dead wife?

    The dialogue is just on fire in this episode. 🙂

    River has been left like ‘a book on a shelf’. Which ties in with the ‘we’re all just stories in the end’ comment she made during Pandorica. The other point that occurs to me is that when an avid reader puts a book back on a shelf, they’re planning to read it again at some point in the future.

    Madame Vastra makes an excellent point: who is feeding all this information to the GI?

    Ah. I said earlier that there are callbacks to Pandorica; for example, the flaming torch that gets dropped on the floor. Now we’ve got another one. In Pandorica, everyone believes that only the Doctor can fly the TARDIS. Now the GI believes that only the Doctor knows his original name.

    But in both cases, there’s River. River can fly the TARDIS, River knows his name. So is The Name of The Doctor the ‘Pandorica Opens’ to The Day of The Doctor’s ‘Big Bang’ style reboot?

    Okay, now I’m wondering: when the Doctor told River his name, did he say it? Or did he show her where it’s written? Because he’s pretty specific on the “I didn’t do it, I didn’t say my name.” And given that his friends are dropping dead around him – and the Tennant Doctor’s ‘there’s only one time I could’ – there still seems a hint that the Doctor saying his own name aloud is pretty high on the ‘serious’ scale.

    The tracks of his tears – bit of a pun on the spelling of tears. The Doctor has torn space and time apart in his travels.

    Or has he repaired the wounds of the universe, like a surgeon who has to cut people open to operate? Whichever it is, the scar tissue needs to be kept safe until it heals.

    Going back to the idea that – somehow – the Gallifreyans might be behind the GI (the Doctor calls him Mr G Intelligence – Mr Gallifreyan Intelligence?), his deep, deep hatred of the Doctor does seem rather a bit over the top. But if he’s somehow representing Gallifrey’s collective intelligence, that hatred makes a lot more sense.

    I can rewrite your every living moment. I can turn every one of your victories into defeats. Poison every friendship. Deliver pain to your every breath.

    Again, if you think of this from the viewpoint of Gallifrey, the desire to take such a huge revenge does make rather more sense. The Doctor committed genocide – and now someone wants to make him suffer.

    And then he goes into the timeline and rewrites it. There is NO canon in Doctor Who 😀

    There is, however, a lot of screaming. And then we see that – whatever the Doctor may have done – he did a lot of good. Without the Doctor, the stars would go out. And a lot of good people would have died – or never even had the chance to become good people.

    And Clara carefully explains an ontological paradox. River, meanwhile, plays devil’s advocate. She carefully explains to Clara what will happen – if Clara’s going to do this, she’s not going to be pushed into it.

    That goes back to the theory that maybe Clara is some creation of River’s; if River made her as a ‘weapon’ to save the Doctor, River is also making sure that – unlike her – the ‘weapon’ has an entirely free choice. No being stuffed into a spacesuit on automatic pilot.

    Mood whiplash again as the Doctor passionately and movingly kisses River: “Since nobody else in this room can see you, God knows how that looked.”

    And we land inside the timestream. No GI; all the Doctors – and Clara somehow surviving it, though she’s struggling to remember, after a thousand lifetimes, who this Clara is. Until she’s sent her leaf, which reconnects her to Clara-from-Blackpool.

    And then, as the Doctor hugs her and calls her ‘My Clara’, we see Mr Hurt. The Doctor spots him first, standing looking out over a graveyard. The other Doctors are running; this man is standing, staring.

    Who is he? Clara saw all eleven faces, all eleven Doctors. This man is ‘me’, but not ‘The Doctor’. Clara saved all the Doctors – but she couldn’t save this one. Couldn’t even know he exists. Couldn’t reach him (which rather strongly implies this not-the-Doctor is locked away behind a time-lock).

    The time stream is collapsing and we’ve seen in the trailer that the Hurt not-Doctor can now get out. Is that because the time-stream is collapsing?

    And yes, the Smith Doctor’s claim that this isn’t ‘The Doctor’ is immediately negated by the production team’s claim that ‘yes, he bloody well is’. 😀

    But is he the Dark Doctor?

    #20491
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I’ve had a lovely rewatch of this. Feels even more “right” at the time of year. I won’t repeat @bluesqueakpip s excellent summation, but just a few thoughts.

    As an episode I love it. You could accuse it of being massive fan-service, but in the 50th year, I think you’d have to be a massive grump to use the accusation against it. Matt Smith really is on top form here. As we’ve just seen the trailer, it’s hard to believe he has 2 episodes left in the role. I’m actually glad it’s so sudden though. That valedictory tour of “specials” for Tennant tried my patience to a certain extent. I think Smith will leave me wanting more, which is preferable.

    We started out in the SM retrospective looking at Moffatisms, and repeating ideas and structures, but as time has gone on, those have really stopped. I actually think, while there are certain themes he repeats with reason, the way he tackles them have been really adaptive and probably work because he rarely repeats a trick or falls into a season structure that repeats. You never really quite know where his mind is going and so it makes the speculation all the more intriguing. In a period that is to a certain extent celebrating the legend of the Doctor over 50 years, I think his fairytale approach since becoming lead writer has paid dividends, with its themes of myths, legends, stories and prophesies really engaging with the notion of time in a way the show has never really ventured into.

    I said on the Faces strand that this period has been my favourite of Who history. As @bluesqueakpip said, Matt Smith is a good strong unpredictable lead, and I think SM has shown himself to be just as unpredictable in storytelling. I think he really has moved the show to the next level after the work done by Russell, opening up the possibilities for the future.

    #20492

    @bluesqueakpip

    PEDANT ALERT!!!!!! (ahem)

    Which ties in with the ‘we’re all just stories in the end’ comment she made during Pandorica.

    That was the Doctor (talking to the sleeping Amelia).

    River was all about the good fairies.

    #20497
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – yes, I confused the Doctor’s line with

    The Doctor: The Pandorica! That’s a fairy tale.

    River: Ah, Doctor. Aren’t we all.

    From Flesh and Stone. Honestly, sometimes those two say such similar things, you’d think they were married. 😀

    #20502
    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    The soufflé isn’t the soufflé. The soufflé is the recipe.

    I’ve always thought the second sentence there is back-to-front. I think most people would say “The recipe is the soufflé”. There might be nothing in that at all, and even if there is, I’ve no good ideas about what it might be. But every time I hear it I just start wondering…

    #20503
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arkleseizure (glad to know you’re going green and furry again after the 23rd)

    I wonder if it means ‘Clara isn’t the Clara. ‘Clara’ is a recipe.’

    That is, Clara-from-Blackpool isn’t the original template. And the original template was created, like a recipe.

    #20515
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @arkleseizure I like your musings on Clara, souffles and recipes

    See my post http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/the-trailer-discuss-it-here/comment-page-4/#comment-1520 (and the following one at 08.44) re why the timestream/scar tissue and the big tombTARDIS no longer exisist by the end of the episode.

    (No doubt there is a massive big hole in my reasoning, ha! But I look forward to seeing how you all deconstruct it 😉 )

    #20516
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @craig, @Shazzbot – am I spamming again? My last post on this thread just disappeared when I clicked submit 🙁 (and thanks to whoever fixed my disappearing first paragraph on the trailer comments thread)

    #20519
    Anonymous @

    Hi @scaryb – yes, but it was real nice to me when I went to visit it in Spam gaol, so I released it on its own recognisance.  🙂

    Gotcher back covered on the other fix, too.

    #20522
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Thanks for breaking me out of jail @Shazzbot 🙂

    The prediction –

    The man who lies will lie no more

    when this man lies at Trenzalore

    The man who lies is the GI

    He will lie no more since he’s now been split along the Doctor’s timeline,  and been swallowed up by the now collapsed timestream. Unlike Clara he didn’t have the Doctor jumping in to rescure him.

    This man could also be the GI – ie the one who tells a lie at Trenzalore, or it could be the Doctor “lying” as in being dead. Or the GI lying as in being dead.

     

    AAAAAAAAAARGH! Splodey head. Tried to tackle too many paradoxes this morning!

    ::goes off to lie down again 😉 ::

     

     

    #20523
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – I remember upon first watching of TNotD, that the whole ‘lie / lying’ conundrum was heavily discussed in every possible permutation of meaning.

    I think it’s one of the most clever things Moffat has done.  Not ‘clever-clever’ as in, too smug for its own good.  But really darned clever because it can mean so many things.

    If I have a prediction for the 50th, it’s that we’re not going to get any definitive answer on the couplet’s meaning.  Because ultimately I think it means every possible meaning.  (hmm, my head might be joining yours in a Splodey dance 😀 ).  In so economical a phrase, he managed to define the episode in every way.

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