Spoilers (2)

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  • #47760
    lisa @lisa

    http://tempus-aeterna.tumblr.com/

     

    I just had to share this guy’s bonkerizing .  He has some great notions about

    the Doctors first wife and finds ways to connect her to Clara, Susan ,time lords

    etc.       I found it a interesting read.

    #47768
    ichabod @ichabod

    b-the-brave  Great questions!  It’ll be interesting if it turns out that CapDoc need not have gone looking for Gallifrey at all, since the TLs (IMO) were working to get him back there.  They have somehow used Missy to broker a deal with Ashildr to get him delivered to them.  That has a nasty smell of cold, arrogant, TL manipulation, to me, although it could always be danger and desperation driving them to make use of him.  In either case, since they’re generally more like Missy than the Doctor IMO, whatever happened to Clara would be of no interest to them whatever, if they even noticed.  I do not see their initial conversation going very well, regardless.

    I’m thinking that maybe they need him — to go back in time and show up at the saving of Gallifrey, eyebrows first.  I can’t see that going down very well either.

    Maybe the upcoming ordeal in Castle CapDoc is a rough, ready, and brutal form of — debriefing?

    As for the confession dial, I wonder if — I think it was phamlore who raised this (trying not to tag) — it is a disguised object, Tardis style, and perhaps in its undisguised (or appearance when re-cast for the purposes of the Castle) form, it’s that book he’s holding in his hand in one of the latest set of pics for “Heaven Sent”.

    The book looks like a small diary.  Its open pages are blank.

    #47769
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    There is something I can’t even come up with a plausible bonkers theory to explain.  As Davros stated in The Witch’s Familiar:

    DAVROS: There was a prophecy, Doctor, on your own world.
    DOCTOR: Please you must, you must stop this. You must stop this!
    DAVROS: It spoke of a hybrid creature. Two great warrior races forced together to create a warrior greater than either. Is that what you ran from, Doctor? Your part in the coming of the hybrid? Half Dalek, half Time Lord?

    My question is: How did the Doctor know about the hybrid at least back when he was the Hartnell Doctor if not sooner?  Is there going to be some sort of special effects enabled appearance of Hartnell’s image in Hell Bent?  I know the Doctor has been shouting this season that there are no limits to what he can do, and it would appear in Hell Bent the Doctor may have been unanchored from his usual moral compass, but reaching back to his very first incarnation on Gallifrey to transmit information seems going a bit too far.

     

     

     

    #47770
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Unless of course, as I’ve seen people suggest, The Doctor IS the hybrid. or maybe it’s a hybrid race he created.

    #47771
    ichabod @ichabod

    Maybe he’s the hybrid that the TLs created.  And maybe he didn’t turn out as required — not “warrior” enough — so they let him run away with one of their TARDISs — ?  But now, enraged over Clara’s death, he might be just what they ordered in the first place.

    #47772
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Well when he’s angry he does have a habit of giving people exactly what they want to punish them, very feasible

    #47773
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @bendubz11:

    Unless of course, as I’ve seen people suggest, The Doctor IS the hybrid. or maybe it’s a hybrid race he created.

    At this point it certainly is quite the possibility the Doctor is somehow the hybrid:  He’s almost the only candidate left just looking over the names known to be in Hell Bent.

    Just watching some of the big story arc episodes of the David Tennant or Matt Smith eras it is astonishing to me how toned down the show seems to have become, at least relative to the madcap feel of how at any moment anything could happen back then.

    Whereas now I am running out of possibilities we have seen before for how the Doctor can even get to speak to the Time Lords.  They are after all in another dimension so I do not even see how physical objects can realistically reach them.  Virtual reality like the Gallifreyan Matrix?  Something to do with the quantum shade?  The Tardis has even been deliberately disabled as far as taking the key away and left to be painted in Rigsy’s art.

    I would welcome some extreme bonkers at this point.

     

    #47775
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @jphamlore time for me to don my shiny hat. The Veil is played by the same person as plays Colony Sarff, and the outfit is pretty similar. could it be not the time lords but in fact Davros and Missy working together to trap CapDoc?

    #47776
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11 @ichabod @jphamlore

    Unless of course, as I’ve seen people suggest, The Doctor IS the hybrid. or maybe it’s a hybrid race he created.

    If The Doctor is The Hybrid then a rubbish attempt at re-writing The Doctor’s past will finally make sense – ie, the 8th Doctor, in his regeneration fog, claimed to be half human. Its been under our noses all this time! 😉

    I can’t remember if it’s been mentioned on this site but it has been commented on elsewhere. The Veil. Valeyard? Or too obvious?

    Bendubz – tea is fine as long as there’s cake. Or chocolate biccies. Or both 🙂

    #47777
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bendubz11, @jphamlore

    You’re drifting. The question is not about the Doctor, or indeed, Davros, but about the Timelords. They are returning. The question is, what will they be like this time around?

    And why?

     

    #47778
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @bendubz11:

    The Veil is played by the same person as plays Colony Sarff, and the outfit is pretty similar. could it be not the time lords but in fact Davros and Missy working together to trap CapDoc?

    As this season has shown, who wouldn’t welcome seeing more Missy or more Davros?  I suspect starting the season so strong with those two interacting with the Doctor has led to many fans having such high regard for the product.  I have been avoiding some of the more blatant spoiler pages so I may have missed something, but sadly, I see no indication that Michelle Gomez will make any further appearances this season. 🙁

    And Missy did not exactly get off to a great start with her personal relationship with Davros just tweaking his eye in The Witch’s Familiar.

    Curiously though in the IMDb site the names listed have changed to where the character of Rump is no longer listed.  I swear Simon Paisley Day was listed as an additional actor just last night.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4701544/

    #47780
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @jphamlore, you didn’t imagine it, I too remember seeing Rump appear on the imdb page. what do you think it is? A human error, false spoilers, or a very late change to the episode? My bet is on the 2nd tbh.

    #47782
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @bendubz11: I don’t even remember where, but I had read some speculation that the quantum shade would return somehow in Hell Bent that really seemed to make sense.  Thus the use of Simon Paisley Day seemed to make sense.  I had the impression Rump in Face the Raven was a bit more than he appeared.  In any case he would have made a good messenger or delivery person, perhaps even using his true form as the Wolverine. 🙂

    Simon Paisley Day is exactly the type of actor I have been talking about as someone who I think the show needs to find a way to do more of what they can do.  Doctor Who has access to a nearly unlimited pool of Shakespearean actors.  In Face the Raven the show found a way for the aliens to be in human form allowing the actors to do some acting.  Now if only we can have some more continuing characters, then the Shakespearean actors can show all of their skills at speaking and depicting emotion.  That has been the great thing about this season, the tremendous conversations between the Doctor, Clara, and certain returning characters.

    #47783
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @jphamlore agreed, and the choices for casting have been perfect all the way through!

    #47788
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11

    I love the theory you’ve written -about the Doctor’s version of events (folks Boy Ilion is typing this for me -just so you all know and so its out there -I mentioned this in the Pub by the way).

    Could it be that the first episode after Raven/Heaven/Hell would be Apprentice?

    Mainly because Jac features prominently? She then dies in the 2 parter Inversion/Invasion?

    still, in the Familiar the Doctor consistently refers to stories but in the beginning of this series the comment “who is dying” by Clara really does suggest she’s about to die -not the Doctor (well, obviously!).

    in the following set of episodes -which were aired at the time -Clara is all about “things being blown up and adventures’ could this be yet another reference to her recklessness and perhaps suggests this episode -on the side of the Doctor -was experienced by him in a different order.

    I love it.

    but I do wonder if this is bonkerising -and not much more.* Perhaps that’s something we’ll never know or not meant to know?

    * bonkerising is outstanding,BTW -its why were here. Still….

    I wonder personally if the DOctor is basically re-thinking these stories in his own mind. That these stories of his are like short stories written in a book -most of the two parters are together and yet when we pick up a book of adventures we don’t need to read them in the order they were written -particularly if theyre about time after all 🙂

    Is there much the Doctor says that’s not true -except avoiding the Shade in Raven. ?

    he lies to Davros and possibly Missy (which is adviseable)

    The Doctor talks about ghosts-when theyre not.

    he talks about zygons and the Os good boxes knowing theyre redundant

    he lies to Clara.

    yeah, I can remember only two -to  4 points. Not good; must keep watching to add to that ‘theory’  .

    Problem is, he usually lies anyway so nix that

     

    Puro and Son

    #47805
    janetteB @janetteb

    I have been busy for the past day or so, “out of forum” as it were as opposed to “out of town” so have not had time to catch up with posts but really was impatient to share my latest theory. I am writing here because it was a comment of Moffat’s that has been niggling at the back of my mind for days that is behind it. He mentioned changing something and fearing that fans might not like it. Well we all know that if he changes the scratch on the bottom left panel of the Tardis door fans will screech but I have been pondering what that change might be.

    This morning  I was watching “Day of the Doctor” and I spotted a blue print for this series arc. The first two parter introduces the idea that the Daleks are capable of changing, that they may not be all evil. Then the Zygon story shows that peace can be achieved between former “enemies”.

    I think what is going to happen is that Gallifrey will return and there will be a truce between the Time Lords and the Daleks, maybe brought about by the “Hybrid” who might still be Clara though I don’t know how. Even the Star Trek and B.5 references, if indeed that is what they were intended to be, tie into this for in both series war was finally resolved by the two warring parties forming a truce. Reconciliation seems to have been the ongoing theme of this series.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #47809
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @wangkiky, there’s a “floor” in your theory above.

    By the way, recent medical research has led to doctors cautioning against walking barefoot on laminate flooring. Apparently it can lead to veneer-eal disease.

    I’ll get my coat…

    #47811
    Anonymous @

    @frobisher – yes, and walking on laminate flooring is equally dangerous if you’ve dropped spam on it (and even more dangerous for the spammer) 😀

    Such a shame I’ve had to remove @wank-kinky’s post – again – as our posts won’t make sense now 🙁

    #47812
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @fatmaninabox

    Ha! Like mine ever do! 😉

    #47822
    janetteB @janetteb

    @pedant and @frobisher

    .. but we can bonkerise endlessly at to the content of the missing post, that is of course if we ever run out of Dr Who to bonkerise about. 🙂

    Cheers

    Janette

    #47827
    lewis97 @lewis97

    Preview clip from Heaven Sent, with The Doctor clearly very angry. I can only think of Sleep No More’s Sandmen upon seeing the sand, but I’m not really sure how that would be relevant.

    #47831
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Thanks for the preview clip, @lewis97.

    It is still early in the morning here, and I have only had one cup of coffee, so the synapses aren’t all firing yet, but where have we seen that mini Tardis/transporter thingy before? And only recently.

    #47832
    Mirime @mirime

    Clara is all about “things being blown up and adventures’ could this be yet another reference to her recklessness and perhaps suggests this episode

    @puroandson I don’t think we actually see her being reckless that often – most of her reckless behaviour seems to occur in off-screen adventures.

    #47833
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @lewis97 indeed, thank you for the clip. Is it just me or does he seem rather Valeyard like in that clip?

    #47834

    @mirime

    recklessness

    It isn’t about recklessness per se (when it happens that is just a symptom) but about hubris. She badly – and in a somewhat self-aggrandising way – came to believe her own PR.

    That rarely ends well.

    #47835
    Mirime @mirime

    @pedant I get that, but in the stuff that happens off screen that we just see the tail end of in her bubbliness and enthusiasm and ‘isn’t this all such a laugh’, she seems different to how she generally is in the adventures we do see her in.

    #47859
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @janetteb: Yes, there is a possible truce, but this is why according to Davros the prophesy said the two warlike species would have to be “forced” to combine to create the hybrid.

    From Into the Dalek, an episode with a co-writer credit for Moffat:

    DOCTOR: I saved your life, Rusty. Now I’m going to go one better. I’m going to save your soul.
    RUSTY: Daleks do not have souls.
    DOCTOR: Oh, no? Imagine if you did. What then, Rusty? What would happen then?

    Daleks have no souls but have physical existence in this universe.  The Time Lords have souls but have no physical existence in this universe.

    Consistent with the themes of the Zygon episodes and The Day of the Doctor, I actually see two outcomes for Gallifreyan souls.  The young souls of the children can go into some human, perhaps one who has just died prematurely, and live out one ordinary life without regeneration.  Or the Time Lords who want more can have their souls transplanted into a Dalek.  Life’s not fair.

    Thinking things over I now have a way for the Time Lords to have contacted Ashildr and Missy from another dimension.  We just saw it in The Woman Who Lived.  Suppose the Tharils from another dimension could take another form, I don’t know, maybe like Rump’s.  Suppose the Eye of Hades could take another form, I don’t know, maybe the pendant that Ashildr prominently hangs around her neck that one can see after she removes her scarf.

    Then the Time Lords would just need something like a death to charge up their inter-dimensional transfer.

    But the Doctor is not going to let the Time Lords just come back.  What if his solution is even more drastic, since if the Time Lords come back the Time War starts again.  What if the Doctor erases the Time Lords from history so they become only the stuff of myth and legend.

    Let us just think who the Time Lords are relative to these times.  They are a former imperialistic empire that became decadent and the immolated itself in a war that threatened to destroy the universe.  I really doubt they are going to be restored to their former status.

     

    #47878
    Anonymous @

    Dear @mirime

    Hallo it’s Son of Puro here. I am still sick with a cold , at home which is a shame as I miss sport. I think when I said or wrote “recklessness”  I was using the word that Clara said in Face the Raven when she spoke very fast about her life and how it had changed since Danny’s death but I would agree having chatted with mum last night that the word @hubris would be good too -as @pedant said.

    I’m rewatching the Zygon episodes and trying to re-order the episodes according to @bendubz11 and their theories about how the events are known from the Doctor’s side.

    Thankyou

    #47881
    lisa @lisa

    If  ‘Raven” has been Missy’s plan I think it worked.  It seems it was SM’s plan

    to have Clara come to this end all along. In other words to get the Doctor so angry that

    he might be in just the right mood for a manipulation.  I think Heaven  Sent may take

    place in Missy’s Tardis.  The veil will be a creature useful in the way Ashildr  had

    a useful purpose to Missy’s plan as only a functionary for her .   The clue was

    the cuff.   Missy told Clara that cuff story and  then she made certain that it would

    detach  from the Doctor after he teleported in this instance.  So she knew how to work

    out all of this plan to  bring him along into this place now. I also think the hybrid

    thing is sort of beside the point.  I think the point is really to get the Doctor to have

    the right amount of anger so that he will want to have a word with some Time Lords.

    She used whoever she needed to use to achieve that.   The psychic alien said  ‘she is scared’.

    She to my mind is Missy.

     

     

    #47883
    lisa @lisa

    Also, always thought Missy went thru the time crack when the Doctor was given his new

    regenerations.  It all began then.  The confession dial is interesting. I still will  suggest

    it is not that. It is some other device that only looks like a dial. That is why he was asked to

    leave it behind. The scene in the trailer where the Doctor digs the hole is curious. Is it to bury

    someone/thing or to dig something out?

    #47884
    Anonymous @

    @lewis97 thank you for the clip! Mr @blenkinsopthebrave. This is the son speaking.

    Yes, Mr Brave I think the transporter was seen in a few episodes in the last few years. I remember it being on the top of Craig’s building in Season5 and also I think I saw it with Madame kovarian -and more recently than that but I’m not certain.

    The sand Lewis97 (ireally like your avatar, BTW) could be left -0ver people. I remember an episode that really scared me with Tennant for an Easter special where they ended up on a planet in a squashed London bus and the Doctor tasted the sand and concluded it was not sand but people. There was a dark haired lady who was a thief but yes it could be the sandmen but I’m not sure. On the Sleep No More episode I don’t remember lots of sand left over after the people were decomposed or taken by the Sand monster. But it’s definitely likely to be that as it fits with the whole season so its a good idea.

    @bendubz11 I agree with you too. I immediately thought of the valeyard too. I haven’t seen him because I haven’t seen that set of episodes from really early Doctor Who but I have heard a lot about him and I suspect that his turn to appear is likely. The anger of the Doctor in that clip sent shivers up our spines. Also, he has that acidy way of speaking where he is not the laugh all the time ‘happy’ doctor that Doctor Smith was a lot of the time. I hope he isn’t though. Was the valeyard supposed to be the evil doctor? I wouldn’t want him to turn evil. It would break the promise he made to Clara also.

    Thankyou

    #47886
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @lisa: I agree that Missy has her own agenda apart from the Time Lords.  The Master was enraged by the earlier prospect that the Time Lords were all dead, yet the Master was also enraged by his being implanted with the drumming sound by the same Time Lords that drove him crazy most of his life.  I find it consistently terrifying in the portrayals that the Master / Missy has been seeking technology that can control mass numbers of people.  I wonder if Missy wants to bring the Time Lords back but chain their minds somehow, to put them under her thumb.   “Upload the mind, upgrade the body.”  I even wonder if a singular Missy now exists.  What if the Master / Missy has converted to being a virtual mind that downloads itself into a master body at any point of time, but if that body is destroyed, it can instantly create another body to redownload?

    I do not believe the Time Lords set out to murder Clara Oswald.  They just wanted the Doctor.  The murdering was Missy’s idea, to enrage the Doctor, because as Missy put it, she just wants her friend back.  She therefore wants to alienate the Doctor from every other rival for his affections, from companions to fellow Time Lords.  Clara was Missy’s plot to break the Doctor’s desire to have another longterm human companion. Clara was to the Doctor an earworm of a companion, designed to obsess him, and thus to break him when she died.

    #47889
    lisa @lisa

    @jphamlore

    I would never doubt that Missy has her own agenda.    But in order to achieve it she

    has to make her way thru the TL’s agenda as well.  How else does she get access to all that

    TL tech?  The Matrix, the Trap st.  tech, etc.   So it occurs to me that if she  ‘can get her

    friend back’   then maybe together  she thinks ‘they’ can resolve some of these TL issues

    because she cant get there on her own?   I also wondered if Missy was a download because

    she doesn’t seem to have the headaches anymore.   Not sure.   But I do think she wants

    to get the Doctor to help her.

     

    #47896
    lisa @lisa

    https://www.tumblr.com/dashboard

    this pic has been popping up today (hope it pastes ok) interesting!!

     

    @nerys

    they can all be seen on Dailymotion

    #47899
    nerys @nerys

    Thank you, @lisa!

    #47901
    Anonymous @

    Hey @craig just wanted to know if there’s a way to stop receiving spoiler emails. I want the last 2 weeks spoiler free.

    #47910
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I am wondering if with the crack being sealed in The Time of the Doctor, there is no longer a physical way for Gallifrey to return to the normal universe.  The only way Gallifreyans might escape back is if their information, their minds, their souls are transmitted.  That is, the Matrix would be transmitted.

    Perhaps the Doctor has been transmuted into an intermediate Gallifreyan hard drive for testing to make sure he is the Doctor.  We saw the reverse of this process when the boy who Danny Pink killed was miraculously brought back to life in Death in Heaven.

    #47911
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I can’t help thinking there has been a dramatic change in how the Time Lords are being portrayed morally between Davies and Moffat. The Time Lords are basically irredeemable villains in The End of Time. Yet by The Day of the Doctor the show runner Moffat chooses to show the pathos and humanity of Gallifreyans and Time Lords.

    It is very interesting to see if the Time Lords will be reverted back to being irredeemable villains. I am going to guess no, that the Doctor will perceive them to be irredeemable due to Clara’s fate but will stay his hand at the last moment in honor of her memory.

    #47912
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Yes, let’s think about the Time Lords not being evil but the Doctor very angry at them for the accidental fate of Clara.  Now I have been wrong about Gallifrey not being able to come back to this universe because the Time War would start again.  There is one place they can go where there would be no war … the end of the time as shown in the Moffat-written episode Listen.

    Now suppose the event that caused Orson Pink’s time travel experiment to send him to the end of time was no accident.  Suppose that his even existing is some sort of paradox since Danny Pink is dead.  Suppose this was done to create a crack in the universe at the end of time where Gallifrey could re-emerge, a time at which Gallifrey would not be attacked.

    I don’t know what the Time Lord plan is.  They might want to somehow restart the universe from there.  They might be able to set up some sort of fixed point in time and go back in time whenever they want.  The key to me is the Time Lords under Moffat are no longer mustache-twirling villains.

    But the Doctor is still mad at the Time Lords with insane fury, and perhaps rightly he does not want them to rule anything anymore.  My theory is the Doctor forces the adult Time Lords who want to come back to have their souls merge with Daleks, which becomes the hybrid.

    #47914
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I have read recently that Moffat thought the upcoming Christmas show could be his last as Doctor Who showrunner.  It stands to reason Hell Bent may throw in the kitchen sink for what he did.  So here’s my grand unified theory for all the leaks so far for Hell Bent.

    The Doctor and the Time Lords are battling at the end of time because the Time Lords wanted a paradox, a non-existing Orson Pink to have his time travel experiment travel to the end of time causing a crack in the universe.  The Doctor, enraged by the fate of Clara, prevents Gallifrey from physically returning at the end of the universe; instead sentencing the Time Lords to only have the ability to have their souls transplanted into Daleks, the Daleks claimed to be soulless by Rusty in Into the Dalek.

    After the Doctor decides to put the Time Lord souls into the Daleks, he goes to the one fixed point in time and space he knows he can find a new version of Clara, the diner in Utah, a Clara that will be protecting the Doctor from the Great Intelligence.  He needs some version of Clara because he needs to hack into the Daleks to upload the Time Lord souls, and Clara has been shown to have become an incredible hacker.  But where can he find the Daleks to hack into them all at once?

    Remember in the portrayal of Gallifrey’s vanishing and the Daleks destroying themselves in The Day of the Doctor that Moffat was careful to show one damaged ship escaping, I believe the Dalek ship that would later appear in Victory of the Daleks.  That is the ship and that is where the Daleks can be hacked.  That is why there is a leaked scene that appears around the time of Victory of the Daleks.

    #47916
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant   It isn’t about recklessness per se (when it happens that is just a symptom) but about hubris. She badly – and in a somewhat self-aggrandising way – came to believe her own PR.

    I don’t think that’s all of it.  She also came to believe the Doctor’s own boastful PR: “I can do anything, but I’m not *supposed* to”, from “Girl”; and she’s seen him do remarkable things on their many adventures.  So she goes into this sure that she can handle protecting her own “companions” (Flatline) as the Doctor protects her (not so great, as it turns out), but also convinced that the Doctor is her fail-safe, and can undo any error she makes.  If it’s hubris, it’s his as much as hers.

    @jphamlore  What if the Doctor erases the Time Lords from history so they become only the stuff of myth and legend.

    Well, maybe — especially if he *is* the hybrid himself; although erasing one side of a conflict isn’t really a truce; that would be genocide again.  It would also be directly counter to Clara’s last instruction to him; so I’m thinking maye not — more likely a truce, IMO.

    @lisa  The scene in the trailer where the Doctor digs the hole is curious. Is it to bury someone/thing or to dig something out?

    Ah, look at his face, his stance — the urgency!  There’s no rush when you’re burying a dead person.  I have a theory.  It’s not nice, but here it is: he’s outside the castle, sees what looks like a grave, but without a headstone, walks over to look.  Hears a voice, a familiar voice:  “Doctor, help me!  Help me!”  Grabs shove, starts flinging dirt like a bulldozer . . . and finds nothing.  Stumbles away, wrecked.  Hears faint voice, repeating, “Help me . . . help me . . . ”  Runs.

    @jphamlore  Clara was Missy’s plot to break the Doctor’s desire to have another longterm human companion. Clara was to the Doctor an earworm of a companion, designed to obsess him, and thus to break him when she died.

    Thanks for the reminder — I keep losing track of Clara as having been planted, somehow, with the Doctor as part of a nefarious plot.

    #47918
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Now to make the Time Lords a bit more evil, what if they did plot the end of Clara … only to give the Doctor the last temptation.  What if they offer the Doctor the chance to go back in time to save the life of Danny Pink and to create an alternate timeline where Clara eventually left the Doctor to marry Danny and have the kid who eventually would become Orson Pink’s ancestor, thus saving Clara as well.  This Orson Pink then goes to have the time accident that enables the creation of a crack in the universe at the end of time where the Time Lords can escape back into this universe.

    #47923
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jphamlore

    Enjoying your increasingly complicated TL theories!

    Until now, I was willing to accept that Clara really was dead, but after your post above I started to wonder, could they pull a Jon Snow on us? The assumption has been that since Jenna Coleman was off to play Victoria that she would not have the time to come back.

    But they managed to keep her first appearance as the junior entertainments officer on the Alaska successfully under wraps.

    I also find it interesting that there has been zero discussion of a new companion coming from the BBC.

    Hmmm.

    #47928
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @blenkinsopthebrave  @puroandson   Well spotted re the similarity between the structure seen in the trailer and the time machine transporter seen in The Lodger and Day of the Moon; I thought it looked familiar.

    They aren’t identical: the frame of the one in the trailer is a lot chunkier than the one(s) seen in the earlier episodes, and the central cylinder is larger and lacks attached control panels, but the overall resemblance is marked, and very probably significant.

    @puroandson and @lewis97  Both the sand in Planet of Death and the dust in Sleep No More consist of the residue of living things, so I agree that the sand which the Doctor examines in the trailer is intended to recall that.

    I wonder, in fact, whether the whole set-up in Heaven Sent will be designed to torment him with reminders of episodes in his life, successful and unsuccessful, and that in turn it might be linked to what is contained in the confession dial? The Doctor hands the dial to Mayor Me, but was she supposed to keep it, or to hand it over to who or whatever wanted her to deliver the Doctor himself?

    @jphamlore

     Perhaps the Doctor has been transmuted into an intermediate Gallifreyan hard drive

    I have a strong suspicion that the events of Heaven Sent will indeed turn out to be largely illusion, and if the Time Lords are responsible, the Doctor may – knowingly or unknowingly – be experiencing a virtual reality in the Matrix, as in the Deadly Assassin, or in a Galleyfreyan hard drive data slice, as in Dark Water/Death in Heaven.

    It seems to me that the concept of illusion, sleight of hand and disguise in one form or another, has been strongly present throughout this series, woven through the various episodes.  When Missy and Clara where whisked from the Dalek control room by their vortex manipulator bracelets in The Magicians Apprentice we saw a realistic simulation of bodies destroyed by Dalek fire, complete with skeletal outlines; and in The Witches Familiar, Colony Sarff’s snakes hid in plain sight, disguised as cables in Davros’s life support pod.  In Under the Lake/Before the Flood, the ‘ghosts’  which were central to the plot were not what they seemed and holograms were used to deceive.  In The Girl Who Died the figure of Odin projected by the Mire was a hologramic illusion, as was the dragon used to drive them away. Lady Me in the Woman Who Lived was disguised on two levels – as a highwayman and in concealing her identity as a functional immortal human from the mortals among whom she lives. The Zygon episodes involved an alien race whose survival depends on their ability to mimic the form of their host species, and Sleep No More was a labyrinth of illusion in which we, the viewers, could never be certain at any point of the truth of what we were shown. In Face the Raven, we had layers of deception and illusion, from the more or less straightforward deceptions in the trap laid for the Doctor, to the illusion which hid the trap street, and the psychic field within the street which hid the form and reality of its inhabitants from strangers.

     

     

     

    #47929
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @mudlark

    I agree with the theme of “illusion, sleight of hand and disguise” you mention. I would also propose a theme of stories being edited or revised, possibly to change or obscure the truth. Rasmussen obviously edits to his own ends, Me edits her diaries to remove sections she doesn’t like (or perhaps someone has edited them for her, to deceive here?), the Doctor “edits” his own actions re. the boy Davros, and (though this may be more of a stretch) the Zygon story has a real feel of timeframes being messed with, in my opinion. We have a strange mention of the Doctor believing Clara to be dead, and it being the longest month of his life, plus there is a lot of long distance travel being undertaken by the main protagonists in, from our point of view, a very compressed timeframe. It all seems like we are only seeing certain parts of the story, with big gaps being omitted. Could just be a TV thing, of course…

    Are these hints that the story we are being told (the series arc) may have been edited or revised in some way (i.e. the order things are presented to us)?

    #47930
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @frobisher   Yes, editing and revision could be seen as congruent themes, and the Doctor is not always a reliable narrator   Rule 1: the Doctor lies.

    From there we could stray into meta territory and contemplate the fact that, as a television show, Doctor Who in its entirety is illusion, subject to complex editing, cutting and revision 😀

    #47931
    Frobisher @frobisher

    @mudlark

    I think we will soon also need Rule 0: The Moff lies.

    Something very clever is afoot, in my opinion…

    #47932
    Mersey @mersey

    @mudlark  @frobisher

    Rule 0 is Moffat changes every rule if he needs it.

    #47933
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @mudlark: Well spoken, thanks.

    Ripples that turn to tidal waves.  It is so risky to change time knowing its effects down the line.

    Unless one approaches the problem from the other direction of time.  What if the Time Lords plan is to reenter the universe at the very end of time when everything but them are dead and then rewrite time moving forwards?  Then they could avoid paradox easier.

    #47939
    ichabod @ichabod

    @jphamlore   I am going to guess no, that the Doctor will perceive them to be irredeemable due to Clara’s fate but will stay his hand at the last moment in honor of her memory.

    That sounds right to me, and sets up his departure again from Gallifrey; I’m thinking he even grudgingly manages to do them a great favor — broker a peace for the Time War, perhaps — but then says that’s it, that’s all he can take of them (assuming they’re behind Ashildr’s trap), and he takes off again, on his own — toward S10.  I wouldn’t be averse to his last line in Hell Bent being: “Now I’m ready.”  Inevitably, a melancholy undertone, but emotional deck cleared for a new companion next season.

    Love your bonkerizing; you are cooking on all burners at a great rate!  I’m still wondering how the heck the TLs can got back in-universe to stir up the coming fire-storm; but hey, while the Doctor in fact can’t *really* do whatever the Hell he wants to, Moffat sorta can — within limits, of course: no blood and guts.

    @mudlark  I wonder, in fact, whether the whole set-up in Heaven Sent will be designed to torment him with reminders of episodes in his life, successful and unsuccessful, and that in turn it might be linked to what is contained in the confession dial? The Doctor hands the dial to Mayor Me, but was she supposed to keep it, or to hand it over to who or whatever wanted her to deliver the Doctor himself?

    Great minds, and all that; some have theorized that the Veil is a disguised Silent, and their function is — to take your confession, right?  If so, the Doctor may find his way out of the castle of despair by revealing what’s in the confession dial (which Ashildr only took in order to pass it on — she says, “They have other ways of procuring it”  when he balked at handing it over in Raven.  And yes on the “illusion” theme, now that you point it out: quite strong.  Someone will use the memories in his own mind to break him down, and illusion is better than than having him actually travel back in his own timeline; illusion can be manipulated to stress the negative.

    Ripples and tidal waves, illusion and manipulation — and everybody lies, especially TV!  Can’t wait for Saturday night.

     

     

     

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