Spoilers (2)

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  • #47941
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod                        @mudlark

    I’ve also been thinking about the confession dial and when it was pointed out the

    similarity between the Silence and Veil ‘hands’  and the point you make about

    the Silence taking confessions I  realized  that Heaven Sent might to some extent be

    to discover the intent of the dial too.  Odd thing is that when he thought he might

    die on Trenzalore he didn’t try to leave anyone a confession dial.  In any case, the fact

    that he gave it to Missy suggests to me that it might be something to control Missy

    if the Doctor were to die and leave her alone by herself to create havoc in the Universe.

    I think Missy might want to know how so she can stop it.

    #47946
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    So this is my real question for all the this is a story or the matrix, it’s in his mind.  How far back in the Doctor’s timeline does this go?  To previous generations even? I mean Tennant uploaded River to the Library, based on Smith’s knowing she would need it. Also who is telling the story? Who controls the matrix? I mean I’m actually with you on this point.  I can’t figure out the why. I think my brain may be overloading, but part of me feels either this is the Doctor leaving himself clues like in Time Heist when they all touch the memory worm thing and he forgot he was the architect.  By the way in the movie Matrix Reloaded there was a character in the matrix named the architect who was the creator of the matrix itself. If the doctor is in a sort of matrix like Missy had, or even the great intelligence, how long has he been there?

    Another thing I wonder about is all the references to memory wipes throughout the last 3 season’s at least.  The latest being in Raven.  Also the themes of death, dreams, ghosts and consciousness. Reality v.s. Dream.  I also keep thinking of the silent passenger from Listen.  The idea that we are never really alone, so we speak aloud.  Maybe it’s the two different sides of ourselves.  What does it mean to be dead, if the soul and consciousness can be sent elsewhere does anyone ever really die or does perspective just change?

    #47948
    ichabod @ichabod

    @carrieanne    references to memory wipes throughout the last 3 season’s at least.

    I’ve been wondering about selective memory wipes, and someone (Ohila maybe) memory wiping the Doctor’s memory of Clara’s death, as a kindness and a relief to him (or for some more dastardly reason).  That would leave him clear for S10.  On the other hand, then S10 would have us all wondering, when will he remember?  Which would be a great disservice to the next companion(s), so forget I said that . . .

    . . . the themes of death, dreams, ghosts and consciousness. Reality v.s. Dream . . . What does it mean to be dead, if the soul and consciousness can be sent elsewhere does anyone ever really die or does perspective just change?

    Hmm.  On the other hand, What does it mean to be alive? . . . does anyone ever really live or does perspective just change?

    Ha, that’s for bringing up The Matrix!

    Also this:

    ¿Qué es la vida? Un frenesí.
    ¿Qué es la vida? Una ilusión,
    una sombra, una ficción,
    y el mayor bien es pequeño;
    que toda la vida es sueño,
    y los sueños, sueños son.

    —–  Pedro Calderon de la Barca

    “What is life? A madness. What is life? An illusion, a shadow, a story. And the greatest good is little enough: for all life is a dream, and dreams themselves are only dreams.”

    If life is a dream, then TV programming is a dream within a dream, and the Doctor is a dream within a dream within a dream . . . (infinite (?) regression trails off into the distance) . . .

    #47951
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @ichabod  Yes you are speaking my language.  Even if Moffat doesn’t directly end up with this as his arc, it’s all really there for us to see.  Contemplation of reality

    .Hmm.  On the other hand, What does it mean to be alive? . . . does anyone ever really live or does perspective just change?  

    Apparently The Matrix has had a strong effect on my mind because honestly I had no idea I was repeating nearly exactly what Morpheus says, hmm Morpheus like in Sleep No More.   Will there be a payoff to this thinking in the show, hell who knows?  There is this frenzy of thoughts where this is all going.  And do I really want to figure it out and ruin the last two episodes.  Honestly no I don’t, but I keep thinking about it anyway.

    #47954
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @frobisher

    Does anyone know what the Doctor and Clara were wearing at the end of The Woman Who Lived, and if that corresponds with their clothing at the start of any other episode (e.g. Sleep No More)? The Doctor’s hair length may also be a clue – it noticeably fluctuates.

    The outfits in the Girl Who Died and TWF and TMA are the same for the Doctor.  I think these 3 should form a group as well.  There are two episodes so far that the Doctor has obviously changed clothes.  TMA and FTR.  In TMA, it seems to point to the fact that the doctor went from young Davros to say UTL, his clothes are the same in that scene and that episode. But that same outfit appears in other episodes as well.  It is in UTL though where Clara says she wants another adventure, some excitement.  If it was in order, they just had plenty in TMA/TWF.

    Then back to the white t-shirt and plaid pants for the remainder of TMA and TWF as well as The girl who died.  One thing I especially remember when the Doctor first sees Clara in TMA it’s like he has seen her die already from his reaction. Clara point blanks asks which one of us is dying.  So many questions in my mind. @puroandson

    Glad to see  you back Puro, and welcome to your son!

    #47955
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa  he gave it to Missy suggests to me that it might be something to control Missy if the Doctor were to die and leave her alone by herself to create havoc in the Universe.  I think Missy might want to know how so she can stop it.

    What an original idea!  That would be neat —

    @carrieanne  “On the other hand, What does it mean to be alive? . . . does anyone ever really live or does perspective just change?”  Apparently The Matrix has had a strong effect on my mind because honestly I had no idea I was repeating nearly exactly what Morpheus says, hmm Morpheus like in Sleep No More. Will there be a payoff to this thinking in the show, hell who knows?

    I’ve always felt that SF and fantasy lives by call and response.  It’s long, rich, highly varied conversation over time, so questions raised in one place are often replied to (rarely *answered*, as at their deepest levels these aren’t questions that have answers except for materialist fundamentalists at one end of the spectrum or fundamentalist religious at the other).  So, pay off?  Maybe — but what could that be?

    TMA it’s like he has seen her die already from his reaction. Clara point blanks asks which one of us is dying. So many questions in my mind.

    It felt more to me that he knew she was going to “die on him” from other things he’d seen on his own travels forward, but if he’d known the details, he surely *never* would have gone anywhere near Trap Street with her, assurances of not from Ashildr.

     

    #47958
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    I guess by pay off I meant that this theme or even the connections between them will be addressed in the show.  Explained for lack of a better word.  Maybe the arc is vastly different from these musings. They are still worthwhile things to think about even if they aren’t addressed/answered in the finale.

    #47965
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @ichabod: I think Moffat has said that it could have been possible that this year’s Christmas special was his last ever Doctor Who episode as showrunner.  Therefore it stands to reason that he would have tried to wrap up many loose threads from his own stories the last few years in Hell Bent.

    So from Asylum of the Daleks we see Moffat introducing the concept of the Pathweb linking all the Daleks that a version of Clara was able to hack into.  That would be a perfect conduit for another version of Clara to hack Time Lord souls into the Daleks.

    I have to wonder if this whole arc has been the culmination of years of patient negotiation that Moffat has been conducting the the estate of Terry Nation to allow some changes to the status of the Daleks.  Moffat is apparently even the son-in-law of the agent who originally negotiated Terry Nation’s acquiring the rights to the Daleks in exchange for allowing Doctor Who to use the concept.

    #47970
    nerys @nerys

    @carrieanne We’ve had discussions about the order of the Doctor’s wardrobe changes (and their possible timey-wimey relevance) over in the “Face the Raven” episode thread, as well, so I’ll repost what I posted there, just to tie in with your comment. Here’s my very simplistic take on the Doctor’s attire this season:

    Dark red coat, white dress shirt – Episode 2, “The Witch’s Familiar” (black-and-white prologue with Missy describing to Clara an event from the Doctor’s past); Episode 10, “Face the Raven”

    Dark jacket with red lining, dark hoodie sweater, dark pointelle/openwork knit sweater, dark pants (solid or pattern?) – Episode 1, “The Magician’s Apprentice” (opening scene with young Davros); Episodes 3-4, “Under the Lake”/”After the Flood”; Episodes 7-8, “The Zygon Invasion”/”The Zygon Inversion”; Episode 9, “Sleep No More”

    Dark jacket with red lining, dark hoodie sweater, dark pointelle/openwork knit sweater, dark pants with plaid pattern – Episode 6, “The Woman Who Lived” (dark plaid pants are definitely in his closing scene with Clara, the only one in which she appears; hard to tell from the rest of the episode if the Doctor’s pants are a solid dark, or have that same plaid pattern)

    Dark jacket with red lining, dark hoodie sweater, white T-shirt, dark pants with plaid pattern – Episode 1, “The Magician’s Apprentice” (after opening scene with young Davros); Episode 2, “The Witch’s Familiar” (including closing scene when the Doctor returns to young Davros); Episode 5, “The Girl Who Died”

    Dark jacket with red lining, dark hoodie sweater, black T-shirt, dark pants – Here’s the one sort of odd anomaly; this T-shirt appears only in the opening scene of “Face the Raven” and looks to have some sort of red and grayish pattern on the front. Is it something that got splashed on him (their clothes are filthy from whatever they just escaped from), or a pattern printed on the T-shirt? Significance?

    One other detail: The Doctor’s hair is noticeably longer in “The Woman Who Lived” and “The Zygon Invasion/Inversion” than in the rest of the episodes. Bad continuity with Capaldi’s hairdresser, or more significant than that? Something to do with “remembering in the wrong direction”?

    Now, you brighter folks who are less trapped by a linear mind than I … make of that what you will.

    #47973
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @nerys  I did see that and apologies for not mentioning you by name.  I tend to read several posts and then let those stew in my brain, and suddenly I have an idea about things.  I did the same thing you did but on paper while watching the episodes over and looking at episode photos.  I agree the pants are difficult to see so it is rather hard to tell which one’s are which.  I’ve enjoyed reading all the theories on the board, including @ichabod, @bendubzz, @frobisher,@puroandson,@bleninsopthebrave, sorry those are the one’s off the top of my head.  I know there are more and apologies for not remembering any more names.  I will try to do a better job of the @fill in name here thing.

     

    #47976
    ichabod @ichabod

    @Carrianne I’m thinking it would take a piano sized brain to keep track of all the theories that we spin here!  I don’t think we’re territorial about which ones were whose, so I wouldn’t worry about it.  It’s kind of a very individualized communal effort, or something . . .

    #47984
    janetteB @janetteb

    @jphamlore I really think Clara’s death was as accidental as it seemed. It wasn’t planned by anyone else because nobody could have predicted that she would do what she did. I also really don’t think the Doctor would destroy Gallifrey now after the entire point of “Day of the Doctor ” was to not be the one to destroy Gallifrey. Likewise I don’t think the Time Lords are evil rather they are very like humans. Time lord society is like any hierarchical society, rotten at the top.

    I have been thinking more about my theory and I really would be surprised if we don’t see some “greying” up of the “baddies” ie the Daleks as a result of the Doctor going back and rescuing Davros from the handminefield.  I think the days of “good humans”, verses “bad aliens” are well and truly past. In recent years we have seen that former enemies such as the Sontarans and Zygons can also be friends. Handles showed a positive side to the Cyberman. I really think that making Daleks as a species capable of good and bad would be far more interesting. They were initially designed to represent a political ideology however from the start that was equated with nationality. I really want to see the series progress beyond that kind of linear thinking. So not predicting this is what will happen but I don’t have the second face required to see into the future, unlike Anna, I am only conjecturing as to what I would like to see happen. And of course I want an explanation for Orson and to see that toy soldier become a bootstrap paradox and if I got even one of those I would think it was Christmas.

    Cheers

    Janette

    ps it seems there have been a lot of posts on this thread since I was last reading so apologies if my comment is a bit behind the times.

    #47986
    ichabod @ichabod

    Just thinking about what’s coming: all of us who’ve said we would gladly tune in to watch Peter Capaldi read the telephone directory will now have a chance to test that for real — except this isn’t going to be the phone book. This looks like the Doctor’s breakdown — the real thing, not a sad-face broody bit with friends around trying to help, and then some healing happiness to round things up with a smile; or for that matter a burst of cathartic revenge or even modest violence (it’s DW, after all).  Much richer than than, I think.

    As the Doctor’s anti-war monologue played off Bonnie and Kate in “The Zygon Invasion”, here in a lonely castle in the ocean the Doctor will play off two silent enemies: whoever made the kidnap bargain with Ashildr (this is when he addresses the screen/audience/tormentor in the short trailer released yesterday), and the shrouded figure pursuing him without speaking — the Veil.  I think we can add a third non-speaking presence — the damaged portrait of Clara over the fireplace.  Alone, but not alone; this is a great set up.  The phones will be turned off in this house.

    Big risk, big payoff — or big fail, crash and burn. I love the risks the creative crew have taken in S8 and S9 (the Doctor as “old” and acerbic after Smith and Tenant, Clara going Real Girl on us including ego and lies, “fabulations” like Kill the Moon and itFotN, the viewpoint-scramble and uncertainty of Sleep no More, Master-to-Missy, etc.).   This is another leap in the dark.

    I’m betting, Big Payoff.

    #47988
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa   I really would be surprised if we don’t see some “greying” up of the “baddies” ie the Daleks as a result of the Doctor going back and rescuing Davros from the handminefield. I think the days of “good humans”, verses “bad aliens” are well and truly past.

    I like the way you’re thinking here; that would certainly be a solid cap to themes in Into the Dalek and the two Zygon stories.  Of course we’ve had good aliens and bad humans aplenty on DW for decades, but to take an arch-enemy like the Daleks and complexify them enough to make a real truce possible — that would be very daring.  Probably upsetting, too, to lots of fans who like their Daleks as a “pure” evil for the Doctor to oppose and outwit.  Now, that’s a risk that Moffat & gang might not be willing to take on . . .

    #47992
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @ichabod: Easy solution to get both kinds of Daleks, grey and irredeemable.  The grey ones are the ones the Doctor gives the Time Lord souls to, the irredeemable ones are those Davros (re)creates.

    There can even be a Ron Moore Battlestar Galactica feel if some of the grey Daleks take on humanoid form and start promoting their religion they feel is superior to that of humans and others …

    #47995
    lisa @lisa

    @jphamlore                                  @ichabod

    I like your thinking too!    Haven’t been taking the Daleks into consideration much recently

    however it seems to me that Tasha Lem turned into a interesting  Human/Dalek hybrid.

    Also we saw that same sort of hybrid in Asylum of the Daleks along with Clara’s pathweb.

    That episode had a lot of pivotal moments IMHO.     So if the “Lem” version indeed is the ‘foretold’  hybrid

    then  at least to my mind  there will be good and bad ones and everything in between.

    Doctor Who is always all about that ying and yang.  That’s where most of the sparkage comes from.

    I wonder if that could be a way that SM messes around with the mythology?  He did say something

    about that. But there are countless ways he could do that of course.

     

    #48002
    Carrieanne @carrieanne

    @jphamlore

     Asylum of the Daleks we see Moffat introducing the concept of the Pathweb linking all the Daleks that a version of Clara was able to hack into.  That would be a perfect conduit for another version of Clara to hack Time Lord souls into the Daleks.h

    When you said this it struck me in the Zygon Inversion said once Clara gets into your head she never leaves. Something like that anyway.  Clara has been in the daleks heads so to speak since Asylum of the Daleks, when she was Oswin.

    #48016
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I don’t know why this didn’t occur to me sooner, but what if the Doctor’s intervention in Clara’s life set off a ripples that turn into waves reaction that led to a death of Danny Pink that should not have happened, thus creating a time paradox with Orson Pink.   Perhaps the Time Lords just needed Orson Pink to travel to the end of time to create the crack in the universe they need to send Gallifrey through.  It is preventing Orson Pink in a time paradox that is the problem for the Time Lords.

    I still do not think the Time Lords tried to assassinate Clara.  But perhaps what they are trying to do is traumatize the Doctor so heavily with thoughts of Clara’s death that he will go back in time and prevent Danny Pink’s death by not meddling in Clara’s life.

    Even darker, maybe the stuff with the toy soldier and the Doctor and Clara rescuing Orson were not supposed to happen either.  What if the Time Lords wanted Orson to do something like blow up his craft in despair.

    #48017
    Mudlark @mudlark

    I’m kicking myself.

    I subscribe to Radio Times (dead tree version), and normally this arrives on a Tuesday with listings and information for the following week.  For some reason the issue for 5-11 December arrived today, and I just had to peek.  Definitely a spoiler too far as regards the outcome of tonight’s episode, but I have only myself to blame 🙁

    #48023
    lisa @lisa

    WARNING !                     big spoiler picture

     

    http://missysdctor.tumblr.com/post/134077284612/pretty-big-spoiler-from-hell-bentmore

     

    looks like this is gonna be all kinds of fun!!!!

    #48223
    lisa @lisa

     

    @janetteb

    This is some back round from Doctor Who novelizations that I’m sure SM has read.

    This Tumbler blogger made  a summation that gives 1 possible history of how the

    Doctor can be the human/time lord hybrid.  He did an outstanding detailed job of it.

    If we are to believe this is so then it can seem plausible.

    http://tempus-aeterna.tumblr.com/post/130199733375/perfect-warrior-the-coming-of-the-hybrid

    (I’m putting it here on spoilers just to be safe    🙂  )

    #48234
    lisa @lisa

     

    Hell Bent Promotional Images

     

     

    didn’t see Ashildr/Me but she is in it and she has the key to the Tardis!

    #48237
    lisa @lisa

    I don’t see any sign of Rassilon  only Lord President so what happened to him between

    ‘End of Time” and the present?    Lots of time lords in  pictures from the above post

    but Rassilon isn’t  going to be seen  standing along with other Time lords is he?  Won’t

    he always be out in front of them.

    #48239
    lewis97 @lewis97

    @lisa The Radio Times have made some interesting observations regarding the possibility of The President being Rassilon – http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-29/do-these-new-doctor-who-finale-pictures-prove-a-classic-villain-is-returning.

    #48255
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Oh this hurts my head. So Me is being used by the Missy to conquer Galifrey? And the end of the teaser we see a regeneration? My theory on Clara stands with her being injected with regen energy when she was in the dalek. Jenna might be leaving but Clara stays. Regenerated Clara.

    Watch and see.

    #48294
    ichabod @ichabod

    Endings for the final episode that I’d like to see:

    A quiet visit to the diner, just a gesture (there’s already been that bit from the trailer where his vision of Clara as his in-head/in-Tardis companion [Hell Bent] takes his hands and then they let go for good at last).  He noodles a song on the guitar, she smiles.  He leaves something on the table with the tip — a symbolic whatnot, though it wouldn’t mean anything to an echo from before Clara ever met the Doctor, would it?  While she clears up, just living her waitress life, from outside we hear the whooshing of the Tardis departing.

    Or: a shot of the Doctor on the shingle from near the end of MotOE, sitting on a timber, or whatever it was the two of them sat on side by side but not touching.  He looks out across the water toward the modernistic structures over there; but he’s sitting alone.  After a bit, he gets up, puts his hands in his pockets, and walks away down the empty beach.

    I’m easily satisfied, really; I like modest hints over hooplah for sad moments.  And I really hate to see this wonderful series of series, traveling with mercurial and strong-minded Clara, come to an end.  Viscerally, I mean: I hate to let it go (speaking of letting things go).  The emotional anchor of their tumultuous and stressful, but strong bond worked wonders, IMO.  I can’t even imagine what can follow next year.

    Maybe a puppy . . .

    #48354
    lisa @lisa

    Quote  “the hybrid will stand in the ruins of Galifrey and destroy a billion hearts to heal  ‘HIS’ own.”

    I think the hybrid is the Doctor.   He’ll find himself on Galifrey around the same time

    that the crack occurred  which  makes 12 on the Galifrey side and 11 on the Trenzalore side.

    The TL possibly getting a new regeneration in the trailer could be the Master into Missy, Maybe?

    Then thru the crack she goes?

    Having said all that  so far my  prediction track record has been very iffy at best and I usually get

    just a few little bits around the edges right.

    #48365

    Passing thought: we are no closer to understanding the WWII set bit being filmed in Kettering a week or two back, as spotted by @sirclockface.

    #48373
    Anonymous @

    @lisa

    Quote  “the hybrid will stand in the ruins of Galifrey and destroy a billion hearts to heal  ‘HIS’ own.”

    I always only found that first portion of the quote -not the “destroy a billion hearts to heal his own”.

    Where did that quote come from? From the Witch’s Familiar? or from the last episode -The Raven? I’m confused I must admit. Must re-watch Heaven Sent me thinks – to the annoyance of Son who thinks three times is surely enough. By the 3rd time he was saying the lines along with Capaldi!  He has quite the memory -I guess most children do. My memory is slowly eroding with age 🙂

    Kindest, Puro

    #48376
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @puroandson He has quite the memory -I guess most children do.

    Oh how I wish that applied to me, I was always forgetting things (though nowadays that has developed into forgetting to sleep, the joys of being a fresher!)

    #48381
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @pedant: There’s still my theory if the hybrid does impose a peace between Time Lords and Daleks that it would go back to a point in time when Daleks were in one location.  Now one possibility might be a little bit after the events of Victory of the Daleks.  If Moffat cared to return to Asylum of the Daleks, have a version of Clara hack the Dalek internet at that point in time.

    #48383
    lisa @lisa

    @puroandson

    The quote comes from this trailer

    I envy those with good memories!  Good memories are definitely  a superpower!   🙂

    @winston

    Your theory gets my endorsement .  I saw that too.

     

    #48393
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    In the classic series Fifth Doctor serial The Arc of Infinity, it is shown that the Gallifreyan Matrix contains a copy of the Doctor’s “biodata extract” of sufficient detail to have enabled Omega to have transferred back to this universe in a body duplicate of the Doctor’s had the process been allowed to properly complete. Wouldn’t the Time Lords or in particular Omega have noticed a half-human half-Time Lord DNA hybrid in this biodata extract?

    #48399
    ichabod @ichabod

    @jphamlore Wouldn’t the Time Lords or in particular Omega have noticed a half-human half-Time Lord DNA hybrid in this biodata extract?

    Well, you’d think so, wouldn’t you?  This is going to be *very* interesting.  It’s also going to be the plot-heavy complement to Heaven Sent, since there are lots of loose ends to be tied up (of course they won’t have tied them *all* up, but certainly some major ones).  We’ve had our emotional devastation and recovery (of a sort).  Now we get some explanations and resolutions.

    Which also means that viewers who love emotional, character-driven work most probably will feel let down by Hell Bent, while those who love plot-intricacies and long-game story-arcs will be — well, let down, probably, since they seem to be get really hung up on inconsistent mechanical and timing details of narrative, so stories are more easily spoiled for them.  The actors are great, so the emotional and psychological lines almost always work, but I don’t think anyone but a TL could catch every hitch in the objective plot line after 52 years of events (and that’s omitting peripheral material like Big Finish, novels, comic books etc.).

    IOW, I am happy with my own status as a sentimentalist . . . but think I’ll pay for it next week.  I don’t mind.  I’ll always have seasons 8 and 9, whatever comes after.  I’m building them into my ramshackle wreck of a memory palace . . .

    #48406
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    I feel like we need to make a list of all the threads that are still open so we can work out what is likely to be tied up in Hell Bent. Might aide bonkerising.

    #48419
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11

    after you sir 😉

    #48420
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @puroandson Well i’m going to have a little nap now (even though it’s only just gone midday, my sleep cycle doesn’t exist anymore) then when I wake up it’ll be what I do first

    #48426
    nerys @nerys

    @lisa @bendubz11 @puroandson @ichabod Re: memory (or lacktherof), I too wish I had a good memory, but I never have … and of course this is not improving with age. Often the memories are there, but it seems to be my retrieval system that’s at fault. I wander around the filing cabinets in my brain, pulling at drawers till I find the right one. School was a chore because even rote learning was difficult for me.

    Names of people and places; I have great difficulty retaining them. Yet here’s something odd: I have superb facial recognition, including age regression/progression. My husband is astonished at my ability to recognize actors in their pre- or post-fame period, either as children or as older adults. Even though they may look and sound quite different, somehow I am still able to recognize them.

    Back to “Heaven Sent”: I watched it a third time last night. I think this episode suffers from commercial interruptions even more than most, mainly because the music is so extraordinary (none of the usual Doctor Who rousing themes, but some truly beautiful and inventive subtext) and segues seamlessly from one scene to the next. Commercial interruptions, ridiculous advertising banners across the bottom of the screen, all jar the viewer out of this marvelous emotional flow. I know channels have bills to pay, but still. I can’t wait till this one comes to Netflix!

    I felt this the first time I watched it, and last night’s viewing confirmed it for me: “Heaven Sent” is, for me, when Capaldi truly became the Doctor. As much as I have enjoyed Capaldi’s performances these past two seasons, I have also felt he (and perhaps Moffat, as well) has been finding his way toward who his Doctor really is. “Heaven Sent” is such a tour de force performance, but the thing is, here I never felt he was performing. Capaldi wasn’t just embracing the Doctor; he was embodying him. Bravo!

    #48427
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @nerys  I sympathise with you over the memory thing.  Like you, I was never much good at rote memorising: facts had to be in a context or I didn’t retain them, and even then I had far from perfect recall.  Nowadays I find that names – of people and things – often slip my mind temporarily (nominal aphasia, I think it’s called), and like you I put it down to glitches in the retrieval system, because the name or word I need always surfaces eventually, especially if I don’t worry at it.  On the other hand, I have vivid memories like little video clips, of my childhood and teenage years, stretching as far back as my second year of life – and can usually place them pretty accurately.

    It is a tremendous pity that the first viewings of these episodes are marred for you and others by the insertion of ad breaks. It is irritating and jarring enough when a show is designed to accommodate these interruptions, but Doctor Who, being a BBC production, is not.

    #48447
    ichabod @ichabod

    @nerys  I watched it a third time last night. I think this episode suffers from commercial interruptions even more than most

    Absolutely.  Most watchers are probably seeing this weirdly mutilated form of the show — no wonder some of them can’t get past “how does the first suit of clothes get there?” etc.!  I shelled out $ this year to get the episodes as they’re shown from iTunes, still can’t keep away from watching the night before with the ads, and it’s always upsetting to see how awful that is.

    #48452
    nerys @nerys

    Oops, I thought I was posting in the episode thread. Silly me! I will repost the non-memory portion of my post there. And yes, @mudlark, the commercials are just sort of shoehorned in there at odd spots. In Canada I watch via the Space channel, and yes, I know they have bills to pay. But it’s so bizarre to watch these spliced and diced versions of Doctor Who!

    #48467
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Yeah that nap kinda turned into a sleep oops, I did tell you my sleep cycle was messed up. Right, to the unresolved threads, let’s do a series re-watch now to find every unresolved reference! It’s a good job I don’t need to do anything tomorrow so I can go all night!

    #48469
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    So anyone see the Peter Jackson video? I stumbled onto at Radio Times. Hilarious!

    #48474
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    (So it isn’t one massive post I’ll split this up into a few posts):
    MAIN SERIES THREADS:
    Hybrids
    Snakes
    Tarot

    APPRENTICE:
    Sonic Glasses not Screwdriver
    “The War” – not specified whether it’s the Time War or the Skaro Civil War
    Travelling to a bookstore – Bookshop or Library? Weeping Angels or River
    Suicide Moons
    Jane Austen = Phenomenal Kisser according to Clara (follow on from The Caretaker in S8, and links to Face The Raven)
    Confession Dial with slice out of it
    Cloister War
    “Which one of us is dying?” – muddled time stream
    Do Not Run

    FAMILIAR:
    Always assume you’ll win
    (Talking about the dark star pendant) “The Doctor gave it to me when my daughter-” What? Died? Regenerated maybe? There’s certainly 2 options for that!
    Stories
    Missy’s clever idea

    #48477
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    NB: APPRENTICE is also both the start of dying but not dying thread and the immortality thread.

    LAKE:
    Moran’s log is on 21st November – date Face The Raven aired, 104 years on
    Symbols = infect in mind, can’t get it out
    Cloister bell

    FLOOD:
    Bootstrap Paradox
    Minister of War
    Cheating death
    Enslaving races

    also a thought, could Lake/Flood be The Lovers tarot card? There’s references to Clara/Danny, there’s Cass/Lunn and O’Donnell/Bennett

    #48478
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    (just to confirm I’m only listing the first time things come up as well, saves time and effort for all of us)

    #48482
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    NB: FAMILIAR also has Playing God thread.

    GIRL:
    Who is Ashildr/Me?
    Ripples and tidal waves

    WOMAN:
    Accessing lost worlds
    Who told Me about The Doctor?

    Something I noticed as well, from The Girl Who Died:
    Turning them into fighters, that’s not like you.
    Yeah,I used to believe that too.
    What happened?
    You.

    #48484
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11

    That is awesome Mr Bendz -love it! I know absolutely nothing about Tarot & only picked it up from yourself, @kharis and Juniperfish (I’m not sure if Juniper is on the spoilers so don’t want to tag them just in case) and Whisht (likewise)

    When you refer to:

    Suicide Moons

    what do you mean (sorry, I’m a bit confused there -memory is off!)

    So is the sonic as sunglasses something used specifically -not because he happens to look call and wants wearable tech? I thought it was initially due to something within Clara he was ‘watching’ as he did scans with Amy.

    I think Austen may just be a passing ‘thing’ like “Grimm Bros on my darts team” and “I married the ‘virgin’ queen” etc?

    On this -absolutely! could Lake/Flood be The Lovers tarot card? There’s references to Clara/Danny, there’s Cass/Lunn and O’Donnell/Bennett

    The cloister bell is very confusing isn’t it?

    Also what do we make of Clara’s statement on Trenzalore that she was born under a clock? There are clocks and moving mechanisms everywhere -even the Veil was a powered mechanism like the castle dial itself. There seem to be dials everywhere this season -in the Lake the time was switched to day/night etc by the ‘ghosts’ and we had stars changing location in the Doctor’s subjective billion year bespoke torture chamber.

    Wonderful stuff!

    Keep powering on -you may need coffee to keep going and @rob, I’m sure ,will be delighted to provide coffee on the Sofa. Of course that will screw up your sleep patterns 😉

    Just Puro

    #48486
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark

    the wonderful information you provided for me and for all of us about how long objects and bodies last, and under what conditions  -peat, salt, water etc was incredibly helpful. I’m sure I speak for all of us when I say ‘thank you’ for going to all that trouble. Son was delighted by the information too. I remember teaching ‘baby archaeology’ (as I called it) many years ago to the 12 year olds at high school. We would bury objects and create hypotheses about them and that was great fun. We’d also make an area for ‘digging’ with tools and create strata for mapping.

    Unfortunately, the speedy curriculum prevents these activities. Many teachers I knew, however, wouldn’t bother going to the trouble as it was hot and they ‘didn’t want to be dirty’. The kids would have loved it, of course.

    Kindest,

    Just Puro

    #48487
    Anonymous @

    @bendubz11 when I said this: “So is the sonic as sunglasses something used specifically -not because he happens to look call and wants wearable tech?”

    I meant: “are the glasses used specifically -not because he happens too look *cool*….”

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