The Beast Below – S31 (5) 2

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  • #14463
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    The Doctor and Amy discover Britain on a spaceship. Starship UK takes the British people through space as they look for a new home. But something isn’t quite right about the ship and there are secrets that the inhabitants choose to forget.

    After the brilliance of The Eleventh Hour I think this was a bit of a let down. There are some great ideas but it doesn’t quite work for me. After the frenetic introduction last week Moffat seems to want to take a bit of time to lay out his idea of who the Doctor is, who HIS Doctor is, but the analogies are laid on a bit too thick.

    There are some great moments though, and Matt gets to show more range – he gets to be the angry Doctor, the wronged Doctor and the just plain wrong Doctor. It’s also interesting that the first few stories were very British and the colour scheme is still very red, white and blue, considering the more US focus the start of Moffat’s second series had.

    And “I’ll have to choose a new name because I won’t be the Doctor anymore” now has much more resonance.

    #14504
    Anonymous @

    I remember liking this episode for showing Amy in a similar light to how Rose was shown – as someone who could stop the Doctor doing something wrong because of her intuition.  The next episode (not Moffat, so not being screened here) did a similar thing when Amy instinctively knew that love, not anger, was the key to stopping a Dalek bomb.

    A couple of points, though; some are simple observations, and others questions:

    “Twenty-ninth century, and solar flares roast the earth”  (see below)

    “Are you a parent?”  (unanswered, conversation deflected)  When are we going to stop being teased by the Doctor’s progeny?  Was Susan really his granddaughter?  And if so, who were her parents?

    Magpie Electricals – nice nod to The Idiot’s Lantern.

    A ring that shoots tranquiliser spray – where is that from?  Have we seen it before, BG?

    Amy in the ‘voting booth’: “Age – 1306” – I had a silly question about this but I’ve resolved it.  If Amy was born around 1989 (being 21 in 2010 or so), then being 1306 would make this episode happen in 3295 or so  (which fits with Liz 10 being 300 from a 29th century earth departure).  Still, at least it’s a Moffat episode that doesn’t take place in the 51st century.  😉

    ‘And then I find a new name because I won’t be the Doctor any more’ – as @craig pointed out, it’s interesting for any Moffat episodes to be re-watched once the denouement happens (which hasn’t happened yet, of course, but we’re getting there …) because clues are littered throughout all of his reign as showrunner which refer to points later picked up on.

    #14508
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    There’s a little prequel to this episode here:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O3b5yRqZPg

    And I couldn’t find the confidential all in one place, but it’s here in bits:

    Part 1
    Part 2
    Part 3

    #14509
    Anonymous @

    After the near perfection of The Eleventh Hour, this was a bit of a disappointment. I tend to think of it as a bit of a RTD-like episode in that it has masses of plot holes and things that are just Cool Ideas but which don’t make a lot of sense.

    But Matt continues to be great and as @craig says gets to show his Doctor’s range. The moment when he loses his temper did — and still does — send shivers up my spine and was the moment for me when he became his own Doctor. I mean, could you imagine Tennant losing his cool like that? It demonstrated perfectly that where Doc Ten had self-pity bubbling beneath the surface, the Eleventh had rage.

    And the interaction with Amy is great too. They had a great chemistry that, I’m afraid Doc 11 and Clara just don’t seem to have yet. I’m hoping that Clara becomes a companion that comes into her own with her new Doc, much like Sarah Jane did…

    Oh, and @craig, love that prequel clip. Always did. (Sigh. I miss Amy.)

    #14513
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I think I agree with a growing consensus here that it’s not the best episode. I think there was a lot more attention to detail on the other 5 episodes that SM wrote in that fifth series.

    Having said that, there is a lot to enjoy here. Ever since it was revealed that the Royal Family were closet fans of Who there have been cheeky republican digs at the Royal Family, and I can’t help thinking that Sophie Okonedo as Liz 10 may have caused some spluttering over the Port. It’s a great turn though, and she’s obviously having a ball.

    In context, there were a hell of a lot of episodes in that series that seemed to resonate with real world events. Even to the extent that the football scene in The Lodger coincided with the England v USA World Cup match.

    This was broadcast in the runup to our last election, and the satire of a restrictive choice in selection, possibly choosing the least awful option available (“forgetting”) was not lost on me. You could take it further and argue that the Smilers are the Political class – either benignly smiling at your “correct” life choices, or adopting a Daily Mail-esque snarl of distaste as your life choices disappointed them. It’s weirdly reminds me of the broad political satire of stories like The Sun Makers from the 70s – with much better production.

    And it is a good point by @craig. The line about he considers his actions will mean he will need to use a different name is great foreshadowing. I think that needs to be added to the Girl in the Fireplace “The Doctor – it’s more than a name isn’t it”.

    For all its faults – still really fun, and the scene with Amy outside the TARDIS embracing the stars is a beautiful one.

    #14516
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Yeah, this is the episode that I think got rushed because he was working so hard on writing the Eleventh Hour. It just doesn’t quite work.

    In the days when Steven Moffat was on Twitter, he quoted one of his little boy’s comments. “Dad, what happens when you can’t think of an ending? Is that what happened with The Beast Below?”

    So the Moffat household is also clearly of the opinion that this one didn’t quite work. 🙂

    But that said, this is an interesting one from the bonkers theorising point of view, especially now we nearly are at the denouement. Amy directly links ‘the beast below’, the Star Whale, to the Doctor. She’s referring to the Star Whale being very old, the last of its kind, loves children and is naturally kind – even when terrified people torture and enslave it.

    But in the light of the ‘hidden John Hurt Doctor’, you can see that there might be other comparisons with the Star Whale. Firstly, the Star Whale is hidden. When we first see Starship UK, we don’t see that it’s there. Whenever we see all the faces of the Doctor, the John Hurt Doctor is hidden.

    The Starwhale, while hidden, permeates Starship UK. Its tentacles are everywhere. And it is the most terrible secret, kept from all the children until they’re old enough to understand (and forget). Likewise, the John Hurt Doctor is the Smith Doctor’s ‘secret’. The Star Whale is treated as a ‘monster’ and is in constant pain. And the Smith Doctor clearly sees himself as a monster; refuses the title of ‘The Doctor’ to the Hurt incarnation and seems to be in constant pain from all that self-loathing.

    The Starwhale, it’s implied, eats the protesters, the ones who want to change their world. Rather like the way the post Time War Doctor has ‘eaten’ his companions. Name me a post Time War Companion who’s managed to walk away from the Doctor unscathed.

    Finally – like the Doctor, the Star Whale manages to save the whole of the UK. It probably turned up on a Saturday, around tea time. 😀 When it’s free of the burden of all that pain – things are actually a whole lot better. Now it can really concentrate on its self-imposed job, rather on all that artificially imposed agony.

    Anyway, the initial rhyme – also rather interesting if you see the hidden ‘Beast’ as the John Hurt Doctor.

    A horse and a man, above, below,
    One has a plan, but both must go.
    Mile after mile, above Beneath,
    One has a smile, and one has teeth.
    Though the man above might say “hello,”
    Expect no love from the Beast Below!

    And the second one:
    In bed above we’re deep asleep
    While greater love lies further deep
    This dream must end, this world must know
    We all depend on the beast below.

    #14522
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip @phaseshift @jimthefish – you all have expressed disappointment with this episode, especially in contrast to The Eleventh Hour.  I will agree that the latter was explosively and magnificently well-done (for many reasons, not least being another complete re-boot – new Doctor, new companion, new showrunner – but also for introducing Matt Smith as the Doctor with such verve and style [leaving out the Moffat-stylee planted clues for several future series of plot points].)

    But the ‘masses of plot holes’ and ‘no ending’?  I see a huge plot hole myself, in that the uneaten children are left wandering around the floor of the ‘Tower of London’ – and no-one in 300 years has put two and two together with respect to why they remain uneaten.  But I thought the ending was perfect – the Doctor realises that he needs the intuition and instinct of a human companion to keep him far from the worst of his own personal excesses.

    Jim, you’re so right on the chemistry between Matt and Karen.  That came through as well in the Confidential (thanks @craig), although I have to say, I felt my original feelings when re-watching that today – Karen G comes across as far more of an airhead than Amy ever did on-screen.

    Phase, good call on the echoes to real-life events in these episodes.  Not to mention that Scotland apparently has won independence from the UK!  Is this a harbinger for next year’s vote result?

    Blue, you’re so clever to equate the Starwhale (the hidden ‘monster’ with inverted commas) with the Hurt Doctor.

    Name me a post Time War Companion who’s managed to walk away from the Doctor unscathed.

    OK, I’ll take that gauntlet and answer, Martha.  My least favourite AG companion; but she did have a fabulous ‘this is me, walking away’ moment in her good-bye to 10.  No-one can escape a series or two time-travelling with the Doctor totally ‘unscathed’ but she did a darned good job of appearing whole, confident, and hopeful about her own future post-Doctor in that good-bye scene.

    #14523
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    OK, I’ll take that gauntlet and answer, Martha.

    Hmm… well, if your definition of unscathed is ‘not giving a damn about my Mum, Dad and little sister being the slaves of a bonkers psycho for an entire year’, then yes. 😈

    Martha found she was strong enough to look after her family. But I wouldn’t define her as ‘unscathed’; rather, she was someone who was also strong enough to survive the Doctor. And strong enough to walk away.

    #14525
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – here is where we will have to debate semantics.  What did you mean by ‘unscathed’?  I’ll take your point on Rose – swept into an alternate universe; and Donna, left to drool on her mobile inanely with her friends; and Amy, left to die in the past from a Weeping Angel Incident.  But you seem to agree that, relatively, Martha escaped unscathed – “she was someone who was also strong enough to survive the Doctor. And strong enough to walk away.”

    I don’t think that she ‘didn’t give a damn’ about her family being imprisoned / enslaved by the Master for a year – but I’m defining ‘unscathed’ as exactly what you said:  She was strong enough to survive, and walked away of her own accord.  So, in this context, and to refer to your original comment,

    Rather like the way the post Time War Doctor has ‘eaten’ his companions.

    Martha singularly didn’t seem to be ‘eaten’ by the Doctor in comparison with other post Time War companions have been.

    Gauntlet over to you …  😉

    #14526
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Re-reading #14532, I didn’t intend to imply that Martha didn’t give a damn – just that I don’t think ‘having your family kidnapped by a psycho because you’re the Doctor’s current Companion’ counts as ‘unscathed’. 🙂

    Her family was destroyed – or at least severely damaged – because she was Companion to the Doctor.

    #14527
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – you’re a genius in more ways than you can know.  I came into this conversation completely convinced that Martha was a rubbish companion character; her love-sick puppy-eyes at the Doctor were stomach-churning I thought, and her ‘character development’ (nothing ever deserved inverted commas like that phrase) was woeful.

    But you have changed my mind tonight – Martha is indeed the only post Time War companion, to date, who has escaped relatively unscathed from travelling with the Doctor.  (Let’s agree to disagree on the effect on her immediate family – I believe I remember that the awful year of Master slavery actually brought her parents together again, but I could be wrong).  She was far better in her post-Doctor (and post-doctor, he he) life than she was whilst travelling with him.

    #14532
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    It’s an interesting one this one. I’ve read a couple of appraisals denouncing RTD as a “gay man who can’t write women”. The Case largely rests on Rose and Donna, who are listless in life and need a Timelord to fill a hole in their lives. They are aimless and need the Doctor to somehow complete them. Almost make the decision for them and be the misogynistic “
    woman-hater he always was (you can probably see I have a couple of issues regarding this. )

    Martha is atypical in this scenario. But she had more in common with Amy in that she did not appear listless. Like Amy (and as a product of a heterosexual man who can’t write women) she has issues, and wonders whether they are the right choices, but they are still her choices, at the end.

    For all Martha and Amy’s supposed “obsession” with the Doctor, they both reject him in the end. I still find it odd that sometimes, in TV, that really attractive people (like Amy/Mrs Phaseshift) will bond with someone who isn’t actually like them?! (Rory/Phaseshift). If we can’t understand that, then maybe that’s our problem?”

    #14535
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @phaseshift – oh, Rory’s attraction for Amy has always been something completely obvious to me. He’s her anchor; the person whose sheer stability and ordinariness means that she can bound off in her crazy life without it becoming so insane she can never get back.

    And Amy’s attraction to Rory is that she keeps pushing him out of his comfort zone and stops him being exactly like his Dad. 🙂 They may look as though they have nothing in common; in fact, they complement each other.

    #14538
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Another theme that turns up in The Beast Below which keeps turning up in Moffat’s work: the loop. The eternal circle that people can’t get out of. Liz 10, especially, who keeps reliving the same ten years over and over and over.

    Hmm… I think I’ve bonkers-ly theorised before that possibly the reason we only see Eleven Doctors plus Hurt Doctor in the Doctor’s time stream is that he never gets past Eleven; that he’s in a loop.

    #14543
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    It’s been interesting watching BG Who in the old format, and it’s made me think that some stories- like this one- really might have benefited from that. There is a great, sinister set up of the mystery during the first part of the episode, and some really good moments- when Amy has just pressed the forget button, then listens to the message she sent herself before doing so- it might have been nice to stew on that for a week before we discover what it was she chose to forget. And the moment when Liz X discovers that she has, for so very long, constantly been constantly uncovering the mystery then forgetting it again (reminded me a little of Memento) which might have been more effective if we had spent a little longer with her.

    I get the feeling that a lot of rather dark issues got overshadowed with the discovery of the Starwhale, and end up glossed over. Especially the people being fed to the Whale. It’s good, though, as @Shazzbot points out, bit of a clue, that the whale won’t eat the children- but given the crime that the boy was fed to the whale for was, basically, using the lift rather than the stairs despite doing badly in his school work- you have to wonder what kind of crimes adults were, very literally, being sent down for. Were the kinds of people who might vote against continuing being weeded out? Had the Queen, by choosing over and over to forget, unwittingly rubber stamped policies she wouldn’t have approved of?  I can’t help thinking that if Rory had been there, some heads would have been banged together.

    There is one nice, retrospectively Rory bit in it. Amy is attracted by the doctors kindness. Of course, by the second series, Rory is, in a fashion, both very old and very kind. The doctor himself seems to find his penchant for humans almost inexplicable, this episode shows that very nicely, with him moment of disgust for our species. I think this is where Rory was important. The way the Doctor keeps shouting at people that they could be ‘so much better’- Rory is.

    And Amy is very good in this episode, despite making a major mistake. In fact I think having her make a bad decision was a good sign. She isn’t supposed to be perfect.

    #14544
    Nick @nick

    I have to say this was one of my least liked stories in Season 5 mostly because the overall episode didn’t completely jell for me. There were lots of interesting ideas, but they never quite managed to make it all work together in the 45 minutes. I was also disappointed by the star whale design, which was for too whale like to satisfy me.

    Nobody has mentioned the link back to the Torchwood episode “Meat” (had to look up the name) where a similar Beast was euthanised by Captain Jack. In hindsight I wonder if SM is making some comparison between Doctor 11 and Captain Jack at one level with the Doctor being less concerned with the element of the population who have been fed to the Beast as <a href="mailto:a@miapatrick“>@miapatrick points out and the need for Amy to step in and make the right choice for the Doctor, something that Gwen wasn’t able to do.

    With my tongue firmly in my cheek, could we not now say that this was a piece of GI interference with D11 and that (off screen) Clara had had a whisper in Amy’s ear to encourage her to realise the alternative the which hadn’t occurred to the Doctor ?

    @phaseshift political satire rings true for me, but I’d argue it applies more widely than just to the UK so SM could have made it as much as a general zeitgeist point rather than something specific to the election.

    I have been convinced that SM pretty much had the idea for the 50th anniversary show for a while and had been dropping hints into the show for quite a while (I think I read someone here say it had been two years in the planning). @craig quote about the name and @bluesqueakpip analysis of the Beast below concept now suggests that he had the beginnings of the idea from the outset. I don’t find that surprising at all.

    Looking back, I rather think it would have been better for this to be a 2 parter rather than Hungry Earth/Cold Blood or if not to have another 10 minutes added to the show time (aka padding 🙂 @jimthefish). A two parter would have been an intolerable load for Steven Moffat to cope with – a co-writer might have help ? The alternative would have been to edit out some of the ideas and make it fit as a simpler story than we were given.

    Nick

    #73643
    Rewvian @rewvian

    So I liked this a little better one my rewatch than I did back when I originally saw it ages ago.  But I still don’t think it was prime DW.

    The early scene with Amy flying outside of the TARDIS was pretty iconic.  And I liked how it went from Amy talking to the Doctor to suddenly the Doctor being on the screen talking to the little kid.  Amy did this whole episode in a nightgown and pulled it off.

    The “Smilers” made a creepy villain but really didn’t seem that important in the episode.  The real villain was probably the Queen and all of the voters, choosing to forget their knowledge of the happenings on the ship.

    I liked the angry conversation between the Doctor and Amy at the end, and how he was planning on taking her back after resolving the issue with the tortured Star Whale.  Amy came through with her usual brashness and fixed things without making the Star Whale brain dead.  There were other things said between Amy and the Doctor that I would comment on now, but I sort of forget those moments already.

    I guess the whole theme of the Doctor being relatable to this other being that’s the last of its kind, and the idea of voting or choosing to forget were good.  It would have been good to see more of the Star Whale itself.

    #73646
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @rewvian I’m not sure if there was a villain in this one. The source of the moral problem was a tragic misunderstanding that the Star Whale wouldn’t swim unless forced to. So the situation resolved itself to the Trolley Problem (or something equivalent). Liz 10 was put in an impossible position – continue the Star Whale’s captivity or kill most of the population of ‘Britain’. As it happened, Amy’s instinctive reluctance to kill the Whale solved the whole problem – but this was almost by accident.
    Suppose the popular belief had been correct, and ‘Britain’ had genuinely depended for its existence on shocking the Whale – what would then be the ‘right’ thing to do? The Doctor’s solution of turning it into a zombie? Or Amy effectively destroying ‘Britain’ by releasing the Whale? Or Liz 10 continuing the Whale’s captivity (and forgetting because the knowledge was too disturbing to remember)?
    Amy’s fortuitous choice seemed almost like a cop-out. But that’s the thing about real life – there are often difficult choices to make where the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are not clear cut.
    Maybe that moral awkwardness is why my recollection of the episode wasn’t particularly flattering, but I actually found it better on re-watch than I expected (a bit like Rewvian’s experience). Liz 10 effectively investigating herself was a nice touch, as was the fact that there were things her ‘underlings’ were keeping from her – partly for her own protection. I’m sure that really happens today (or at least I hope it does – “Sure Mr President, the nuclear codes are in this laptop”)

    #73647
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone , how are you all 🙂

    I watched this again (maybe seen at least 3 times) on my aim to complete Series 5 and reading the previous comment about the difficult choices and how each was paired with risk of disaster or torture there was not a clear path that didn’t cause damage.

    Yes Amy figured it out and I like the explanation a kind creature looking to help didn’t need to be forced and tortured to guarantee it to keep helping though I thought of something and was it explained in the episode ?

    The Spaceship built around the Star Whale is like a life support for these people of Great Britian, the Sun was dying or exploding they mentioned the sky or people burning, so the Star Whale saved them cause the children were hurting and crying that’s fine but why are these people 250 or 500 years later (not sure which) still on the ship ?

    The escaped Earth and the disaster you would think in 500 years of traveling they would have found a planet to land/settle on (like in New Earth our own World/Earth home from home) or called for help by now from others also just thought ah its Earth spaceship tech its not very fast like our tech now but its powered by a Star Whale who surely as a Species fly through space at great distances, so I wonder why its been 500 years and nobody wants to leave the ship or have a goal to land somewhere they just keep going into space.

    I think its like a hint to our human nature ;

    1 we don’t want to push to find a better solution if the current one isn’t harming us, like climate change we didn’t really want to change anything but now it harms us, our crops, nations ect more notice and are working to fix it cause we are scared of the danger that will come if we keep causing it, by nature if we are  safe, happy to settle and think the next better path is far away or difficult to achieve we just stick where we are we don’t like going into the unknown and leaving safety, these people have lived on the ship for generations they don’t want to give it up for a chance of a better place what if the next planet is damaged again they have flexibility and security on their ship and a community identity.

    2 Maybe they are accustomed to it and the trauma of why they left Earth with the Star Whale they find comfort in the ship and its like a hoarder dont want to give it up cause it reminds you of something you love it has value or importance or from an experience like a family member gave this something to you and gave it meaning,

    These people were facing a dying planet they were saved why give up the thing that saved them and that memory and tale of that day and how they were saved it’s become their history and something they wont give up cause that day and how they made it is important to them and is like they are holding on to it and wont move on, move off the ship or ask for help to a better live from others in the universe they are content with being stuck living on that ship cause they dont want it to lose its meaning its their first way out of a burning earth its their first empire out into space its like the first of anything highly important to people and treated like gold.

    I dont think its ever mentioned we are heading to blah blah this planet, their just roaming randomly through space till what they find a perfect planet ? , I dont think they want to leave give up the tradition and life style lasting hundreds of years on that ship which has become home.

    The Doctor doesn’t ask where you going or its time to go home nothing like that, what happens when the Star Whale dies of old age or is hit by a meteorite these people have no final destination and are gonna be stranded in space with no engine.

    Would any of you be content to live on the same spaceship all your life when right outside our amazing planets ect just imagine if you lived on a train for all your life would you ever think I could step off here and experience outside that I have seen through the windows for decades.

    Interesting for humanity we love our home soo much even on Earth you feel better when your home and vulnerable and lost without it, a lot of people I see on T.V. shows like when they move aboard or go on holiday they say “I love this place (such as a hotel) but I would never life here” you could be in the best hotel you know or a nice camp site but everyone wants to go home eventually you feel sick or trapped if you had to live in a place that doesn’t feel like home even if it would be an amazing holiday/temporary place its our nature but nothing like this desire to go home is ever mentioned in the ep even if its just what people know on that ship surly they would like to visit new places and they say the ship is called the Great British something sorry for not remembering so they keep their home land name why not go back or find a new Earth ironically

    You know I feel like the series (5) is about being with the ones you love or the things you love , from the Doctor loving Churchil and the guy in the ep the half robot who loves that women Dorabella , love in the Pandorcia and the Big Bang make the stories good and family connection whats important, Vampires of Vennice is the Doctor literally setting up a date and Amy’s Choice is about who she wants to be with , I could probs find the meaning of love in all of Series 5 eps so where is the love of home or anything in The Beast below , its not even said the people love the whale as the Doctor says they just use it instead of an engine but the Star Whale loves The Children just be good to hint or say what about your love of home Earth something like that 🙂

    Wow I have missed talking Doctor Who things haha sorry its too much as usual I think this is just comforting to me to keep thinking as I go and really squeeze all the juices out of an idea, observation or review 🙂

    Take care everyone happy Halloween if you celebrate it have a good day 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73648
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

    I forgot to mention the Love the Doctor has for River and vise versa which links the two angle eps with love and also religious faith (from the future church people) which is tied to love and love of others 🙂 , the Siliarn 2  parter has love of Earth where your from. love of family the Women and her kid, the Siliran’s Sister I know series 5 is built as a fairy tale but isn’t most fairy tales like Beauty and the Beast built on love, acceptance of who you and people are, true love no matter what others thing which further supports my each ep has hints or has elements of love idea 🙂

    Love you all share love true love with others take care everyone 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73650
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @dentarthurdent I think you analyzed and summarized that whole aspect of the episode much better than I was able to.  I think the part about choices not being clear-cut was probably right on the money.  Amy could have very well destroyed the humans to save the Star Whale, but fortunately it just so happened that wasn’t what the Abdicate button did.

    @oochillyo It’s good to have a couple of you trying to analyze these episodes alongside me now, since it gives me some added perspective and thoughts I otherwise might have overlooked.  I think you raise good points about the ship on the star whale taking centuries to reach its destination, and perhaps not even having a clear destination at all.

    Perhaps the people aboard the ship had grown comfortable with living that way.  Or it may just be that it simply would take even longer than a couple hundred years for the ship to reach another habitable planet, though in DW that seems kind of farfetched anyway.

    I do wonder what the lifespan of the star whale would be, and whether it could live the entire trip.  It was being tortured for hundreds of years as well, which seems extreme.

    I will have to watch through the season and try to determine if this love theme tracks or not.

    #73655
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey Rewvian 🙂 how are you 🙂

    It feels nice to be back and free 🙂 I know I am probs one of the most annoying here cause I ramble on and on too much just happens when I get thinking as you saw today 🙂

    Thank you for getting back to me and actually valuing my idea especially the love one 🙂

    Look forward to more discussion and being free to strip episodes apart for detail and plots 🙂

    take care everyone 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73656
    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone 🙂 how are you all 🙂

    I sort of wanted to jump speed my theory/idea cause in a better mood after a nice rainy walk with Molly and some good music and thought people will have lots of ideas and variations on love 🙂

    So just now I got Iplayer up and looked at all series 5 eps 🙂 and wow my idea works sound my own trumpet haha but seriously I am just happy to be back and feel useful to you all 🙂

    So as I say its good knowledge Series 5 New Who is the fairly tale Series and I mentioned how that fits with love in my previous messages and I could go in depth with each ep 🙂 but just hopping through for now 🙂

    Eleventh Hour is trying to get us the audience to love the new Doctor show him off whats he like make you feel comfortable with him , soo many people me too loved the Tenth Doctor so its very important after the giant he was for the show to help us move on and love the next 🙂

    In the ep we have ideas of the wedding which runs through the series and we do have our first married couple in this series 🙂 Rory and Amy love each other they are soon to be married that fits 🙂 and I guess the Doctor’s speech about planet Earth and “I’ve put a lot of work into it” shows his care for it and love of Earth and most importantly humanity 🙂

    I explained the Beast Below and Dalek ep so check it out 🙂 love of home , love of friends ect 🙂 and the Angel 2 Parter with faith and love being connected and River and The Doctor love each other even if its not at that point in their time line the Doctor would know her importance and loves a good mystery haha thats another one and they are flirty with each other and there are hints so it works 🙂

    Side note – Amy trys to kiss ect the Doctor which is parts of love too even though its not great for that ep cause she is meant to be preparing for her Wedding ect but she is in shock ect 🙂

    Vampires of Venice the City of Love 🙂 and what I mentioned its literally a date for Amy and Rory ep 🙂

    I did Amy’s Choice and the Silurian 2 parter love of home , family , who Amy will choice who she truly loves 🙂

    Also The Doctor’s Wife was meant to be in this Series and thats a love for us audiences a love of the show its history and the Doctor and The Tardis finally get to talk and bond and its sweet true love their “I will always be here for you ” 🙂

    Vincent and The Doctor 🙂 I love Vincent Van Goth and soo do many of you , the ep highlights who is was his life ups and downs and there is a love of art, beauty in the world like the stary night scene 🙂 love of what you do even if others tear you down , he is one of the most loved artists ever and you can sense the Doctor’s love and admiration for him 🙂 love even in a broken man its beautiful he still sees beauty and love in the world and he tries to get with Amy a few times ha 😉 he is looking for love companionship someone to carry his burden 🙂

    Side note Amy senses a lost love cause what happend to Rory and Vincent picks up on the pain when you really miss someone you love/loved

    The Lodger 🙂 not sure but the ship wants to return home which is why its trying and accidently burning the people maybe you could love it longs to be home not sure if its love , ofcourse more clearly is the love between Craige and his to be partner friends at first but there is a chemistry how all good love starts 🙂 and they get together with The Doctor’s help in a way at the end beat the threat through the power of love like in Criages next ep and have a child later on 🙂 The Doctor sticks with Craige to look after him and encourage those around him 🙂 he looks after Craige his friend thats a kind of love 🙂

    Also all the people who get lured in we are told they are the ones wanting to leave whatever they are all going through they are clearly out of love that women crying especially maybe if they had someone they wouldn’t wanna leave like Craige wants to stay to be with the women and yes the the glasses guy who knows if they are out of love but its lures them love of helping people being kind and have you seen such and such or help me it prays on our nature to look out for people and help 🙂

    The Pandorica the aliens pray on Amy’s memory of Stone Henge the Romans ect love of history and childhood books fairy tales again  🙂 love of River and The Doctor , lots of characters we the audience love such as Vincent and the Liz 10, think of all the planets and people who love the Doctor for helping them these enemies hate him for that and fear he will break the universe they are stopping him out of love of wrecking the world but as in the ep for fear of him destroying the universe and the unite together to stop him Daleks , Cybermen ect all together to protect the universe a team stopping fighting to save their world thats a love a love between a team and a common goal that units them 🙂 Rory breaks his condition of being an Auton out of his love for Amy even if he shoots her it was hard for him to stop that and like a fairly tale your Prince or true love can return out of nowhere like magic when you need them most Rory comes back for Amy like a fairly tale 🙂 ooo bingo I was struggling to find all the love to fit the theme for this ep clearly the love Rory has for 2000 years to protect Amy and guarding here thats mentioned in the ep right he was guarding it he beat that Cyberman and in the next ep he stays 2000 years to do that job but he was already protecting it in The Pandorica and he truly loves her and missed her , love soo strong it reminds her of him and thats half why he is back right and thats like when people struggle to communicate or have dementia for example it can be tough but you know they love you and sometimes the cloud is gone and they are back to who they were and remember you and love you the power of love 🙂

    And we have the wedding 🙂 yay thats been running through the series 🙂 weddings are a place of love and team on the day and as long as the people live or their love lasts a vowel to love and Amy brings back everyone through her love and her mind 🙂 her parents The Doctor ect and the married couple is happy true love 🙂

    A Christmas Carol I love this ep 🙂 its about well love all of it , Sardick thats his name he is a rotten cold hearted man , thats through his experiences of love and I know that sometimes, I sometimes think I am never gonna meet anyone or people trick me and break my heart , going through many dating sites hope I find someone sweet someday 🙂 but poor Sardick lived a love of broken love he lost his love she well kinda died to him and like in a Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens thats what corrupts him and hollows him out , the Doctor steps in going through his time line to show him who he was is and could be like the story and show him love and brings it back into his heart 🙂 , the people on the plane need someone to save them and only Sardick can do it but he doesnt care about them or them dying he doesnt love others only money perhaps and the Doctor breaks down his barriers , Christmas is a time for love and family breaking down fudes ect coming together in the most heart warming of months 🙂  the story is about love the power of love , how it can break you but why you should keep it warm in your heart and help others and find love for being good to people 🙂

    Its also Amy and Rory’s honey moon which is a love period too and many couples love going on the honey moon after the wedding 🙂

    I think Christmas and this ep feels you with warm and love and joy of the world and people 🙂 love that units breaks down trauma and fuedes of even decades sometimes like a Christmas Carol there never was a man soo jolly 🙂

    And Sardick gets a night with his love one last time and merry night 🙂

    Half way out of the dark 🙂

    happy love everyone 🙂 would really like to go into more detail if any of us can pluck it out haha 🙂 or other eps/series that show love like The Doctors Wife 🙂

    Take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Regards – Declan Sargent

    #73659
    Rewvian @rewvian

    @oochillyo I will have to continue my rewatch and see if I pick up on any of those themes strongly.  It might take me a while to get around to watching the next episode, but one of these days I’ll write something about it.

    “The fairy tale series” isn’t a bad way to describe season 5.  I remember one of my personal gripes with it was how the Doctor basically “reset” things and it felt kind of cheap, but from a storytelling standpoint it was everything turning out alright in the end.  Again, I will have to see what I think of the rest of this season as I resume my rewatch.  I think I am already looking at these episodes with different eyes than I once watched them with.

    And I like that you and dentarthurdent are contributing to the rewatch as I’m working my way through the episodes.  It is likely you both will get a bit ahead of me, but I’ll try to keep up with the thoughts both of you post while I add my own.

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