The Time of the Doctor – the 2013 Christmas Special

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  • #21954
    WhoHar @whohar

    @scaryb

    Thanks, but don’t mind me, just messin’.

    I just hope that a multiple enemies story is up to it. 45 mins is just not long enough in my view, especially for a regen ep. To be fair though, that would have meant Moffat writing two movie length scripts back to back, which is a lot of work. I would have helped him out – if he’d asked. IF HE’D ASKED!(Oh Steven, oh Steeeven, are you there…..)

    Oh and @scaryb – btw – the bath was full for the 50th and not just water. Half way through, the Dowager decided to climb in. She’s a lovely lady but it was a bit of a shock when she asked me to scrub her back. She’s got that many creases though, I should have ironed her instead.

    #21956
    OCalTh3Irish @ocalth3irish

    My theory is that at Trenzalore the Doctor will try to bring Gallifrey back but the Silence will try to stop him.  at some point he can get an army of Timelords out to help fight off the Silence and ends up sacrificing himself in the process.  however, as he is dying he realizes that he won’t be able to bring back Gallifrey on Trenzalore so he picks out one of them (Peter Capaldi) who has shown promise throughout the episode and answers the question “Doctor who?” to close them off in the painting “Gallifrey Falls No More” and sets an interactive interface of himself (the Tom Baker cameo in DOTD) and appoints Capaldi as the new doctor and is buried at Trenzalore leaving Capaldi with a different Tardis.  It has been implied before that a timelord only has 12 versions and with the Warrior doctor smith is the 12th, hence he has no more re generations.  and Capaldi is a different timelord adopting the name of The Doctor and rebooting the story line that way.  Probably full of plot holes i know but this is what I’ve thought through so far.

    #21962
    geoffers @geoffers

    “Per my (completely ignored, sniff) post on the DotD thread, I wonder if the Doc’s memory loss will be linked in some way to the Silence and their memory wiping abilities? Or possibly the mind worm from Snowmen.”

    @whohar – sorry, i forgot to post a reply when you postulated this on the other thread. not because i’m the doctor… just because i’m old! 🙂

    i was of the impression that the memory loss is due to the great intelligence’s shenanigans, whilst inside his timestream, in ‘the name of the doctor.’ wasn’t there a scene to that effect, after he steps into the timestream, showing the confrontation in ‘the snowmen’ in a slightly different light?

    and, yes, i am a suitably dirty old man, and i “went there” when i first saw the promo pic. i just had no idea what the object she’s holding is! knowing now that it’s a “cracker,” only makes me laugh more evilly, as it looks more like clara is intending to use it on the doctor!!

    but, she doesn’t look nearly as frightened or as serious as she should, does she? what’s up with that, i wonder? matt looks like a zombie…

    🙂

    #21965
    WhoHar @whohar

    @geoffers

    GI shenanigans you say? That would explain it. I seem to remember memory loss from another ep though. Could be Moffat playing a long game.

    The question should then be: will the ongoing memory loss have any impact on the regen ep?

    I guess Clara’s seen it all so won’t be as frightened as – ooh I dunno – a dirty old man 🙂 Matt looks really really pissed off.

    #21968
    geoffers @geoffers

    @whohar – i’m guessing the memory loss will be wiped away by the regeneration, to let capaldi have his own problems to deal with. however, it may play a part in whatever mistake matt makes that gets him killed, maybe?

    yes, there were a few other memory loss “clues,” most notably in ‘hide,’ i think? or ‘the crimson horror.’ (or both!) but there was also the fact that he was forgetting the war doctor, on purpose, and that might have had unintended memory consequences. i’m not sure that he precisely remembered the war doctor, at all, until he showed up in his timestream. but, i think he knew the cyber planner nearly gained access to “a deeply buried secret” in ‘nightmare in silver.’ that blockage was there to protect himself from himself, as much as it was to keep the cyber planner out…

    #21976
    thommck @thommck

    Scared to here about Spoilers on the loose, I think I’ll be sweeping my spoiler-cave out at the weekend to go and hide in :/

    Now I’m even worried to theorise, in case someone says, “hey don’t talk about the spoilers!”, confirming that I guessed correctly :'( Who am I kidding, I’m never going to guess it correctly 😛

    RE: Clara’s Cracker. It’s obviously the new use-once Sonic Cracker, snap to activate.

    I do have a little theory brewing about Capaldi.

    Moffatt has kindly given us a full set of regenerations now and wrapped up the Time War plot in a nice little bow (or maybe loop). It would be just typical of him not to show us the regeneration! We see Smith die and then, Capaldi pops up from around the corner and says to Clara “Trust me, I’m the Doctor”.

    That would then give us a whole new mystery! We always get more new questions than answers after all. It also means that they don’t need to explain the whole regeneration limit in one episode, they can let the back story develop over time

    #21978
    Scatamonky @scatamonky

    I hadn’t thought of that Thommck – but you’re right! It is  Moffet’s style to raise as many questions as he answers.

    That would be a great way to kick off Capaldi’s reign and ensure the message boards keep buzzing throughout his tenure!

    #21989
    Rob @rob

    @bluesqueakpip like all moments of genius your idea needed to be copied to bring it to a wider audience 😛

    When TheMoff realises out true bonkersgenius (henceforth BGI Bonkers Genius Index, a rating that goes from 1 to 12 then up to 1  again) will be offered parts to write and star in the series after the next series after the coming series or something anyway

    Maybe just a jammy dodger each 😀

    #22002
    Rob @rob

    Ohh and ps

    Gave you arecommend on the Guardian too 🙂

     

    #22030
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #22031
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @rob – thanks. 🙂

    #22032
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @rob (AAAgh! that new avatar is just SCARY! *hides behind the sofa*)

    When TheMoff realises out true bonkersgenius (henceforth BGI Bonkers Genius Index, a rating that goes from 1 to 12 then up to 1  again) will be offered parts to write and star in the series after the next series after the coming series or something anyway

    BGI  – brilliant (nearly as brilliant as the theory itself)

     

    @tardisblue

    Absinthe makes 2 hearts grow fonder

    Yes indeedy 🙂 (laughed at your spoof plot too – probably makes more sense than TotD will!)

     

    #22034
    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    Am I the only one hoping that Frazier Hines comes back so that we can get the obligatory The Thick of It references (there’s a character in that called Jamie for those who don’t know).

    #22043
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    This is a barely coalesced theory but. “Silence must fall when the question is asked; Doctor Who?” The War Doctor has been redeemed and now counts as one of the Doctors. Time streams have moved. Has the question been answered? Darn my toddler anyway; she’s singing the ABC song on constant repeat this morning and I can’t quite think it through.

    @bluesqueakpip Clara as The Ideal Companion. Hrm. If that’s the case, I wish that she had a little more depth and development. I like her; her dialogue is snappy and her energy with Matt was excellent, but — well, I’ve liked other companions better. Though I agree that his Ideal is probably not in any way romantic, hence Donna being the (previous?) Best Friend.

    #22131
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    So who wants to lay a Who bet (with a fond toast to @htpbdet who enjoyed betting on the upcoming plots of Who!) that there will be a baby in a crib (the Doctor’s old Time Lord crib to be precise) for Christmas?

    This also fits in with the Osiris myth going on under the surface, as Horus was conceived by Isis after she put Osiris’ scattered body back together again (just as the Doctor was fractured in his own time-line by the Great Intelligence and “put back together” by Clara).  

    I’m really certain there will be a baby in a crib for Christmas (the Osiris mythos is a precursor for the Christian mythos) and in fact I hereby declare that I will eat a bow tie if there isn’t.

    River left us with a mystery in “The Name of the Doctor” – her psychic link to Clara. We already know that blood can psychically connect people from a bubble universe to this one, thanks to the plot of “Hide”.  And now we know that Gallifrey is in a bubble universe. So is Clara a descendant of River (connected by blood)?

    The theory that Clara is the Doctor’s grand-daughter has been mooted before by several (perhaps @bluesqueakpip originally here?).

    It’s just too neat for Moffat to resist – Smith regenerates into Capaldi and Clara gasps “grand-father”? 

    A return to the Doctor’s family and that crib or not? Roll up ladies, gents, clone-batches, multi-forms and place your bets!

    #22132
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Oh and @wolfweed LOL at the image of Murdoch as Davros in charge of the spoiler machine!

    Also @whohar sorry your post about the Silence being behind the Doctor’s memory loss got ignored.

    We’ve had the explanation that Eleven’s memory loss is due to PTSD as a result of trying to live with his war crimes in “The Day of the Doctor” but I am very happy to hear The Silence are back because that massive loose end needs some (bow) tying. 

    I can’t help but recall Kovarian and her alliance with the Silence and wonder again if her reference to a “bitter endless war” was to the Time War.

    #22133
    DickieGarvey @dickiegarvey

    I think that the crib will have some significance in the xmas special, and i belive that there will be another river plot opened up too, there is so much more that we can see as nothing is in sequence.

    Claras’ vortex manipulator is Captian Jacks correct will she still have it in the time of the doctor or did she give it Back ????????

     

    #22152
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Wild Christmas speculation (with a promise I have not seen any of the spoilers that are, perhaps, out there – this is genuine speculation!)

    Doubling – are we done with it?

    We’ve had many a story involving two time streams and those proved to be narrative foreshadowing (yay bow-tie obsession)  culminating in the “Day of the Doctor” and the two time streams of Gallifrey – one in which it falls and one in which it falls no more.

    We’ve also had many a story involving Doctor dopplegangers, from “The Almost People” and Eleven/ Ganger Eleven to “Nightmare in Silver” and Eleven/ Cyber-Eleven.

    What if we are still in the Doctor’s time-stream and there are two versions of Eleven in there; the Eleven who emerges from the time-line where the Hurt Doctor did commit genocide and the Eleven from the time-stream where he did not?

    I can imagine that the Alliance built the Pandorica for Genocidal Eleven and the summary of the Christmas special rather hearkens back to the Alliance.

    So, what if the Doctor meets and has to defeat his “dark” self in order to stabilise the time-line change and it is the battle with himself which causes his regeneration?

    This would be really neat as it would mean “dark Eleven” could be the Valeyard.

    I do hope so, that would be such a nice “bring all the themes on home” narrative bow-tie for Christmas! 

    Plus, @ardaraith , where are you? You usually want to discuss the Doctor’s crib and babies!

    See my posts above 🙂

    #22157
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @juniperfish – death and rebirth. Will the rebirth be simply the regeneration, or will there be a ‘rebirth’?

    Yeah, I’d go for a baby. We’ve just got the major problem cleared up; any baby isn’t going to be stuck with ‘last of their kind’. Gallifrey’s now out there; like Susan in the original episode, they’d be exiled but able to look forward to a return.

    I’ve had several theories about Clara – but they all revolve around her being incredibly like the Doctor. Right down to her also being able to control the TARDIS doors with a click of her fingers. And talk TARDIS. According to the minisode, she can have an entire conversation with the TARDIS.

    ‘Descendent’ would fit with all that – whether the Doctor is Father or Grandfather, she takes after him. Timey-wimey; in Journey, was Clara unwittingly seeing her own cot?

    #22158
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    Oh, hey!  The cot is in play!  @Juniperfish, I may need to live dangerously and join the wager!

    Smith regenerates into Capaldi and Clara gasps “grand-father”?

    Talk about catching my breath!  What a perfect little bow (tie).  But Who is in the cot??

    I don’t think we are done with River’s story.  She may not be present anymore, but Moffat loved her character too much.  He wove her into so much of his storytelling, that I would be flabbergasted if her influence has well and truly played out.  It makes me wonder…. has our current Doctor, under Moffat’s hand, mentioned his family (child(ren)/granddaughter) more than other regenerations?

    As we have discussed before, River’s line about the psychic link with Clara, followed by ‘spoilers’, is too blatant to simply be cheeky commentary as she finally ‘dies’.  She is hinting, letting the Doctor know, maybe for the last time, that there is more to this story.

    Who was it that questioned whether this Clara is actually the original, or whether she is also a Claricle? If we have not met the real ‘child’ yet, that would explain why the TARDIS is iffy about her: she isn’t natural (beg pardon, that is someone else’s well thought theory, but I don’t recall who).  What IF……WHAT if…..the Claricle we see now is about to be the perfect Nanny for Clara, River’s daughter??

     

    #22160
    DrTennant @drtennant

    Well, Capaldi IS Old enough (no offense) to be Clara’s grandpa

    #22164
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip and @ardaraith the votes for a Who nativity scene of sorts are piling up… excellent!

    I’d love to see River on-screen one more time before Smith goes, maybe Amy and Rory too. 

    It would be time-travel-tastic (that sounds like an Eleven-ism) if River and the Doctor’s daughter had been adopted by Amy and Rory (her grandparents) dropped off by River and her vortex manipulator of course, then her daughter, Clara, was adopted having “blown in on a leaf”. Presumably River was hiding the Doctor’s offspring from nefarious influences…

    The leaf connects Clara to River and Amy, as I’m sure we’ve speculated before.

    Clara is also hinted to be a Pond when she knows the right word, “pond”, to say to bring the Doctor out of his blue funk at the top of the spiral staircase.

    #22165
    Anonymous @

    indeed @juniperfish and @bluesqueakpip and @ardaraith I think the doubling issue (mentioned by Juniperfish) is to be re-explored. It’s been done so as you said so many times  but also through Rory’s mini-deaths & then his ultimate reappearance. It would also make sense as 11 is really 12, for the Valeyard to show up as we know from DrCBaker’s years that the Valeyard appears sometime between the 12th and 13th regens? It’s as if this ‘being’ carries all the nasty doings of any time lords (in this case, the time war) which they must face before a final, balanced regeneration. The Doctor has now recognised that he wasn’t behaving like a doctor during this period and so that acknowledgement brings on something new…a nativity, as it were

    So, if they’re in the time stream, then maybe the only way to get out is to remove one 11 and restore the other? The angst of that connection brings on Dr Capaldi who, whilst older (in looks) has the ‘younger’ eyes also attributed to the Hurt Doctor by Clara. I’m still interested in the timestream lock/block as the Doctor is reading about quantum mechanics very slowly. Is he really the Doctor?

    Also, as mentioned by other writers above, Clara’s distinction (in the DotD) is a different one from her previous ones. I originally thought Clara in tBofSJ was ClaraPrime who was essentially the same in DotD but I now think, too, that this Clara is far too knowledgeable/connected to the TARDIS to be the same one in tBofSJ. At what point did the ‘doctor’ talk to Clara about the time war “so much” etc?

    This might be happening in the timestream block. I can imagine, when Clara fainted, that the Doctor gently laid her down, patted her cheek and explained to her exactly what he did in the time war and this somehow entered her subconscious? He assumed she was deeply ‘out of it’? Being the impossible girl, can she attach herself to these memories of his whilst asleep/unconscious?

    I like how in the still shot of the Christmas Special, the clock is striking 12. So we had the ’11th Hour’ with Mat’s first appearance and this nicely brackets his final ‘bow’/time (connects with the other type of bow.. -tie. Timey whimey). That he’s also the 12th doctor is alluded to by the clock face, as others have said.

    Yes, I think Smith’s mention to the TennDr about his grave and there’s “nothing to be done about it it’s where we’re going” must have a link at some point -or be the actual solution/finale.

    I think that River won’t reappear but there’ll be a flash back of sorts, by Clara, who, might herself be the child inside the cracker..oops crib. Just like River was the one in the cot and couldn’t appear until the end of AGMGTW. And it’s THAT Clara (the one in tDofD) who is in the crib. After all, they could be mixed up in the timestreams so one (Clara) doesn’t mean the other can’t exist. They can all exist in one place at several points.

    The title ‘Time of the Doctor’  signals the beginning of the new, redeemed doctor with a whole new life (lease on life) and a significant set of travels before him in which to locate his grandchildren. That’s my bet but nothing new -all said (and better) by those wiser people, above!

    Kindest,

    purofilion

    #22173
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    speaking of bonkers theories!!  @PennyInTheAir proposed *this* nugget months ago:

    But ‘my’ version of bonkers theorizing did segue to River (because of her psychic link with Clara in TNoTD, and she did follow her all the way to Trenzalore) that maybe I could be wrong. And maybe blood is calling to blood. When Clara jumped into the doctor’s timestream, maybe River (still psychically linked, followed right along with her. Keeping her company (or should I say, the claracles), as her/their Mom. (haven’t quite figured out how to make her corporeal) But I do think it’s very feasible for her to still be connected to Clara within the time stream.

    #22174
    Anonymous @

    @ardaraith -that would be brilliant and makes perfect sense. It explains the fact that River is still chugging about (although uploaded in Library) & would explain the clear reference to the psychic link in tNotD.

    I would like to know who gave Clara the phone number -off topic here- but in the end, knowing ‘it all’ isn’t necessary, just fun.

     

    Kindest,

    purofilion

    #22178
    Anonymous @

    also to all good people above, I might begin to think that River has some huge connection to Clara via soufflé recollection.

    If the soufflé is not the soufflé but the soufflé is the recipe (blimey) then that suggests it’s in the campaign (oops, that The West Wing) or the experience that the thing itself is considered significant. Not just the end, the person or the final result. This being so, River’s death or ‘end’ is not the point: her existence culminates in the experience (and the life she lead). It’s timey whimey…or better left entirely unsaid 🙂

    #22211
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Slap that backside!

    #22214
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @wolfweed I watched that like 12 times because I couldn’t believe my eyes. What is Moffat doing? Very unexpected. Must be a red hering.

    #22216
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @wolfweed Thanks for the clip. Does it count as a spoiler?

    I ask before I rant discuss 🙂

    I love Matt’s Doctor in so many ways; the darkness in him, the Chaplinesque physical comedy, the dress sense, the old, old eyes in a young body… 

    But this clip showcases an aspect of the way Moff  and team sometimes (not always) writes for him which I really don’t like and I hope it won’t carry over into the Capaldi incarnation.

    It’s there when Eleven refers to River as “Hell in high heels” in “The Wedding of River Song”. It’s there when Eleven checks out Jenny in “The Crimson Horror” and we get the sonic erection gag, then he sweeps her off her feet and snogs her without her say so. It’s there when a monk in “The Bells of St. John” asks of the painting of Clara “Is it an evil spirit?” and the Doctor replies, “A woman”.

    The fact that I understand Moffat is trolling his critics in these moments, specifically the critics who accuse him of sexism, doesn’t ease the “ick” factor for me.

     If Tom Baker (my childhood Doctor) had uttered these lines or behaved in these ways when I was watching him as a young thing I would have been so, so disappointed in the Doctor. 

    The Doctor may have called his female companions “My dear” quite a lot in days gone by, but he never made gendered jokes like the above – at least to my recollection (someone can correct me if I’m wrong!).

    I just see/ hear the writers’ voices and not the Eleventh Doctor’s in moments like these and it rings “wrong”.

    I have no problem at all with a sexual Doctor. The way Eleven kissed River goodbye in “The Name of the Doctor” was touching, heartbreaking, quite lovely. But, I don’t, as I’ve said before on The Grauniad, want Doctor Who to be Woody Allen in Space!

    #22217
    toinfinityandbepond @toinfinityandbepond

    Imagine the reaction when she turns up at New Year with Peter Capaldi

    #22220
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @juniperfish – The clips are from a BBC1 trailer, so I would class them as a teaser.

    z

    I presume that they’re pretending to be boyfriend & girlfriend and that the Dr is a bit rubbish at it & therein lies the comedy.

    z   ”Exterminate all Hanky-Panky!”

     

    Nobody complained when Liz 1 (& Zygon Commander) kept pawing David Tennant’s Dr that she was (they were) molesting him…

    (Also – Remember June Whitfield’s wandering hand in TEOT?)

    I expect there are plenty of ‘men are rubbish’ & ‘husbands are rubbish’ jokes throughout Moffat’s tenure too.

    I can see how some of Moffat’s lines might irk, though.

    Notice how there was never a big deal made about River being ‘an older woman’ (of sorts – Mrs Robinson pun aside).

    I do wonder how the hanky-panky situation will be handled when Capaldi & Coleman are the crew, though…

     

    #22222
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    @wolfweed said

    Nobody complained when Liz 1 (& Zygon Commander) kept pawing David Tennant’s Dr that she was (they were) molesting him…

    That’s because no-one at the BBC asked me! I felt bad for Tennant’s Doctor, getting grabbed and snogged all the time. Madame Pompadour seemed like the only woman he didn’t much mind being kissed by. I thought that the rough-handing he received from Elizabeth I went a bit over the top. Seemed a hallmark of his tenure, though. It’s just not pleasant when someone gets kissed when they don’t want to be, be it the Doctor (Tennant and Smith) or Jenny, or Rory. I don’t mind if the Doctor kisses (someone mentioned the nice one with River, and I think Eccleston’s Doctor enjoyed the one with Bad Wold), but I dislike the dubious-consent/assault bit played for laughs. Bit of a sticky wicket, that.

    #22224
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish, totally agree with you.

    When I watched tDofD my son was making the usual “eerk” noises when Liz 1 was snogging the TennDr. I did think it was a great laugh and also (because I was quite touchy), I didn’t want anyone to dislike anything about this anniversary special I had so wanted to be perfect (I did think it was fab).

    Later, upon a further re-watch, I also started to wonder about the sexualising of the Doctor with Moff. I recall an interview where Moff says “has no-one noticed he’s this gorgeous man?”. This is why Amy wanted a snog (and more) with the “Ah you’re so sweet Doctor, I wasn’t thinking of anything quite so permanent” line.

    I remember the nine year old going all “ooh yuck, stop it, you’re the doctor. You’re an alien. You’re our protector. You cannot waste time kissing Amy.”

    Not bad for nine!

    One of the things I loved about Pertwee’s era and Baker’s too, was that the women (as I mentioned in my memories post) were important people in themselves. Now I know that Amy and River all did wonderful ‘sciency’ and compassionate things (Amy authored the solution in the Beast Below) but the snogging just gets to me. It did with RTD as others mentioned above. How many times during his era, did characters in episodic moments suggest that Martha or Donna were ‘with’ the doctor? I know it was a running gag (with Donna) but it peeved me off!

    If there is such a thing as a “fatal flaw”  (as was the belief in Ancient times) or a showy dark crack running down the middle of a life then it is, in Moffat’s case, a longing for all the circles to be joined up. For the alien to be man, with masculine needs and for the women in his life to love him in more than a platonic fashion. Yet, the Greeks, the Romans, had so many versions of love (no doubt there are universes filled with unusual beings who lack a sexuality as we would describe it 🙂 ). Is it that us, as earth bound, 21st century people, have a distinct longing for that one thing: and that’s for the picturesque to be seen and absorbed at all costs?

    Even if it means the same tropes being re-visited until eventually we see a flashback of River taking Eleven’s hand and wandering with a lazy, sexy glance to a bedroom in the TARDIS (no, no…)?

    I remember it was OTHER people around Jo and the Doctor who treated her like an accessory and would ask for “tea please, an extra sugar, I think I need it”. They’d also watch her perfectly formed bottom and, behind their hands, would exchange a quick smirk (very quick and hardly noticeable -but it was there). I remember it being so completely out of place as the doctor (and his companion) simply never thought that way -thank God.

    I’m interested to see how the Doctor, in this Christmas special, relates to young Clara. They do have similar responses to each other. Each knows what the other seems to think and there’s a matching correspondence of gesture echoed back and forth. She, I think, is quite pretty, with her large brown eyes but it’s unsettling at times.

    Perhaps I miss the Donna figures- larger than life, casual; without the sweet smiles and gentle voices. I miss, too, the aging or ageless doctor, still and sly as a child, watchful: a gatekeeper to another realm.

    Maybe it’s just that Moffat (and RTD) have a romantic temperament (the longing for that one thing) and that, before Mat’s Doctor bows out, we’ll have as many boyfriend jokes and short skirts as possible? After that, with Capaldi, we may have something new. Something older and blue?

    I think I’ll defer to the 11 year old (just now, turned 12) because his perspective is the one I’m interested in -it’s a kid’s show too.

    kindest,

    purofilion

     

    #22225
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purofilion and @juniperfish – the Doctor’s going in a cycle. Nine’s not got a clue (can’t ‘dance’). Ten’s like an adolescent who’s just discovered relationships – and while he’s got an idea that he’s good looking and the girls fancy him, they’re the ones who tend to dive on him. He’s also terrified of commitment – could never tell Rose he loved her, and runs out on Elizabeth I.

    Eleven, though apparently more gawky and embarrassed by this whole sex thing, is also more mature. He gets married, doesn’t run out on River, and is later a widower. This is partly why it wouldn’t surprise me if we discover a child in this Christmas Special – it’s the next stage.

    “Maybe it’s time I grew up,” says the War Doctor. Maybe that’s what Moffat wants – a more mature Doctor. An adult, a parent. Given the complexities of filming, any child would need to reappear (has already appeared?) as an adult. Capaldi, in his fifties, is old enough to play ‘parent’ to a young-adult Companion. It might well be the intention that his Doctor will quite literally be the parent or grandparent. Again.

    #22227
    WhoHar @whohar

    @juniperfish

    It seems odd to me that Smith is the only one to suffer memory loss. Then again, different regens deal with the war differently?

    The memory loss was foreshadowed in previous eps (as @geoffers pointed out). I’m reading something into that – it’s what we do right? – for the Christmas ep.

    Agree re Silence and loose ends btw.

    #22231
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip yep, quite right. I see that the snogging bonanza with TennDr was what Moff was drawing us to -that arena with RTD and now, he’s (TennDr) grown up -I thought it funny how Smith’s Dr was standing on the side lines with the Hurt Dr watching and saying: “it does tend to start happening, yes”. Mm. All planned. Thank you. I’m not able to see these things in that clear way you do: 9 is_; 10 is _; whilst 11 is____. You have a terrific mind and I’m glad for that. And to the others above. Also, you’re succinct in the way I definitely am not!

    Cheers,

    purofilion

    #22237
    CraigNixon @craignixon

    Personally, the thing I want to see (and I appreciate it has nothing to do with anything else) is the Doctors significant other.

    Not River (unless it is River), the Grandmother of Susan. Thats been bugging me for years!

    #22238
    Anonymous @

    @craignixon – I’m wondering how much of Peter Capaldi’s Doctor will be in the Christmas Special? Regeneration episodes tend to have the regen at the very end, so it’s quite likely we won’t get much more than ‘The Eyes’ that we saw in the 50th special.

    We still have the topic The Next Doctor open – which might ramp up quite a bit in activity once the Christmas Special has aired – and I’m sure I’ll be speculating madly over there about whether the search for Gallifrey will lead us to finally (finally!) get a look at Susan’s antecedents.

    #22239
    Anonymous @

    @purofilion – “the soufflé is not the soufflé but the soufflé is the recipe”

    That phrase has been theorised over a lot.  What does it mean?  It seems to be slightly like a Rorschach Test.  But reading your comment 22178 above, I suddenly had a thought.

    that suggests it’s in the campaign (oops, that The West Wing) or the experience that the thing itself is considered significant. Not just the end, the person or the final result.

    I like your direction of thought there, regarding the process / experience determining the end.  What crossed my own mind re ‘the souffle is the recipe’ is that it means that the idea, the genesis, the plan is what the end result is all about.

    I know that’s not true, though – every good plan must have good execution (as you pointed out) to have a good result.  Which means the phrase really should be:

    The souffle is not the souffle, the souffle is the recipe plus the chef.

    Will the Christmas Special put us out of our misery over this one?!

    #22240
    Rob @rob

    Ok I’ve had two BGI’s today

    1/. Reading Quantum Mechanics book, is not the theory that you can be simultaneously in two or more places at the same moment?

    2/. The Valeyard is a creation of the Great Intelligence after entering the Doctor’s timestream and/or/neither the trickster doctor

    Off to get coffee maybe there already, hmm 2 sugars please 😉

    #22248
    Anonymous @

    @rob – can’t say I’m much au fait with quantum mechanics meself, but I think in addition to what you have said (‘you can be simultaneously in two more more places at the same moment‘), one of the other principles is that the mere act of observation changes the behaviour of what is being observed.

    Is that a quantum meta reference to Clara observing the 3 Doctors in Day of the Doctor about to push The Moment’s Big Red Button?

    #22251
    Rob @rob

    @Shazzbot me niether, but I have watched a programme by Prof Brian Cox

    on Quantum Mechanics sooooooo (pause to laugh as I mangle theory into Who)

    Space is mostly nothing so one part of the theory is that all electrons are linked together throughout the Universe,  thus everything is sort of everywhere all the time, here’s my mangle, all matter was created during the Big Bang, the outermost edges of the universe are therefore the same electrons as existed then.

    Thus if an electron can be in two or more places at once it must also be probable that the same electron can be in two different times at once

    Maybe one more coffee then 😉

    #22265
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Just had a wee thought on the memory thing, as we know the smithdoc has entered his own time stream in NoTD and appears to have memory gaps in the DotD. What if these are as a result of having entered his own time stream and it’s a psychological block on memories in order to protect himself from knowledge he shouldn’t have yet much the same as his earlier selves being unable to retain memories of events of DotD. Also Clara’s sudden increased maturity/knowledge where the doctor is concerned may also be down to side effects of having been in the time stream she has effectively lived multiple lives (a bit like a timelord). As TDotD is post what I am currently going to call Trenzalore event 1 for the present untill events in TotD prove or disprove the Doctor’s and Clara’s presence in or escape from the time stream. The events in TotD appear to mark a return to Trenzalore so this would be Trenzalore event 2 which may or may not occur in an earlier time on Trenzalore thus with the demise of the smithdoc creates the time stream rupture on Trenzalore for event 1 and lays the way for Capaldidoc to appear. Oh my head hurts now i am sure someone will be able to refine this supposition/theory.

    #22276
    CraigNixon @craignixon

    @Shazzbot

    I dunno, I think he’ll only appear last 5 minutes tops. This is Smiths swansong remember, so unless they do a Two Doctor story (oooooh, wouldn’t THAT be good!) they won’t overshadow him by booting him off halfway

     

    @rob – By combining the Quantum Entanglement theory of that all space is linked and that Space can be ‘folded’ – this could explain how the TARDIS flies. It ‘folds’ space to make Point A and Point B (wherever and whenever) the same and travels down the tunnel it makes. But a lot cleverer than I just said,

    Also, @rob, @Shazzbot – Clara in TDoTD is more a link to Observer Principle IMO – you cannot view the actions and measure them without changing them (i.e – measuring something with a Voltmeter, because it is wired in will change that circut)

    #22279
    Anonymous @

    Some observations on the ToTD poster…

    The Cyberman behind The Doctor appears to be made of wood.

    Sontaran spaceships.

    A couple of soldiers behind The Silent. Are they goodies (like Father Octavian’s troops) or are they Colonel Runaway’s men?

    The structure in front of the clock tower looks like a pyramid.

    There’s a booted foot sticking out from under the rubble just behind the wooden Cyberman.

    There’s a buried Angel making a grab at Clara’s legs.

    #22282
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    From BBC Media Centre Clips…

    BBC Showreel for Christmas 2013 – Warning – Contains more clips from TTOTD…

    #22285
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @wolfweed The Doctor leeds the Silence somewhere at(2:04)? Clara faces the Silence alone(2:19)?

    Thanks for that, enjoyed it as always. Quite a few bits and pieces from DW and SH.

    Matt: “Hello everyone, I’m the Docotor” Me: “Yes, you are.” I will miss this Doctor for sure.

     

    #22290
    Anonymous @

    @ Timeloop-totally with you. I’m already tearing up. Will need tissues; sitting with my family who will be staring and wondering why I’m miserable. Still, on with the show, lives goes on. 🙁

    #22293
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @juniperfish @purofilion @wolfweed @bluesqueakpip (and anyone else on Slapgate)

    I think to a certain extent each personality is a rejection of parts of the one before, so with 10 he often appears completely at home in any situation. Very smooth, charming and socially aware. With 11 (I’m sticking with trad numbering here folks) he likes to think he’s those things but he’s really quite inept saying and doing some deeply inapropriate things for any situation he’s in. Personally I love it.

    I mean – as a bloke you know you’re going to be on your best behaviour if you’re meeting a man who may suspect you have sexual designs on his daughter. So he does the most deeply innapropriate thing you can imagine. To me, that is pretty funny. Who else would go to someones stag do and gatecrash it like he did in Vampires in Venice?

    I really think the dynamic will change again with Capaldi and a rejection of certain parts of 11 will occur. Unfortunately, that will probably mean that bow-ties will no longer be cool. 🙂

    #22294
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @timeloop @purofilion

    Yep – as much as I’m looking forward to Capaldi I’ll miss Smith as well. If you want to write a bit of a eulogy to him after the episode (or even before), we have the Faces strand for thoughts on the Doctors. I’ll link to my recent post on him below. I’m positive that in my long history of viewing the show, this has been my favourite continuous period, and Matt Smith has been a large factor in that:


    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/the-faces-of-the-doctor/page/9/#post-19780

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