The Woman Who Lived

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  • #45645
    lisa @lisa

    I’m assuming that Ashildr has found a way off the slow path.
    The way she looks and dresses and the fact that she stands behind a gate as though it were
    a prison in that photo suggests that she is very devious and probably quite criminal.

    I think the ‘raven’ necklace Clara wore implies she is the raven possibly protecting the
    Doctor and I think Ashildr is causing a serious risk to both Clara and the Doctor.

    Also you cant miss the shocking red gloves Ashildr wore. Or the fancy red dress. Watching it
    this time I noticed tons of red. Red as in blood and war. Last week Clara had a very blue shirt.

    So now I’m thinking Ashildr isn’t Ellie but is teasing that she is possession of knowledge as
    it relates to Clara origin story and has the intention to do something to her.

    #45646
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pufferfish  human beings who live the normal three score-and-ten are said to use only 10 per cent of the brain’s capacity (possibly 20 per cent, can’t remember exactly) but there are LOADS of stories that suggest immortality unlocks the unused portion (eg. Heroes).

    Heroes is fiction, though; and new studies refute the theory of huge unused portions of the human brain, noting that electronic brain mapping indicates that all of the brain is involved in most functions of the brain, so there aren’t any unused rooms where the lights don’t go on.  Nobody knows how to measure the actual holding capacity of the brain, though, to compare with how much of that capacity we use in a lifetime (also not presently measurable), so I don’t think we get an “out” down that road.

    @juniperfish  (tarot)  a judgement, of some sorts, is upcoming, and no doubt “the lovers” will make an appearance. It could also point eventually to the rediscovery of Gallifrey, as at last the Fool reenters the “World” at the end of the journey through the major arcana.

    Neat; I like it!

    @purofilion  Of the guitar: Also, it was a nice, off centre scene, without it being hugely foregrounded. It’s the Doctor’s way of winding down -last year it happened to be blackboards and chalk.

    Oh, you’re right — I didn’t make the connection.  Sure; doing something seemingly inconsequential in down time is as likely to be a form of resting, mind and body, as not.  No need for people to make a fuss about it.

    Quoting a post of mine as unintelligible: Most of GoT just glides along on T&A + lots of blood slick greasing the rails

    Translation: “Most of Game of Thrones just glides along on Tits & Ass and gory scenes of violence pulling viewers along.”  My unflattering opinion of a whopping great TV hit show (I felt very much the same about the later seasons of “True Blood”, by the way; I’m just weird, actually.  I find splatterings of sex and gore in TV drama just — boring.

    @nerys  As you say, it’s a bit of a free-for-all, with that selfie thing.

    #45647
    Starla @starla

    Quick thought… when Me/Ashildr and the Doctor are hiding in the chimney, he mentions Clara. She says (in what I interpreted as a mildly derogatory tone of voice) something along the lines of “oh, she’s still with you is she?”. He queries if she remembers Clara, and then Me/Ashildr says something like “Yes, ine always remembers one’s witnesses”… just checking if I heard that right, and if so, what the hell does that mean???

    #45648
    Starla @starla

    Rewatch – “I take particular note of anyone’s weaknesses”… whoops!!

    Still, the fact that she remembers Clara, and not only that but views her as a possible weakness in the Doctor, makes me think someone  (e.g. Missy) has been in her ear.

    #45649
    Mirime @mirime

    So now I’m thinking Ashildr isn’t Ellie but is teasing that she is possession of knowledge as it relates to Clara origin story and has the intention to do something to her.

    @lisa I like it. I’m sure something about memory or knowledge of something is going on. Me’s journals with pages cut out made me think it even more.

    #45650
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I defiantly get the feel of a recurring character.  And I loved the way they developed her story telling. From the last episode where she told stories to try and affect the outcome, then told herself bad stories and thought she was making them happen. Now she is writing stories about herself, which become just that, stories, because her human brain cannot hold all the memories. In a similar way, I think Auton Rory held it all together, but as a human he lost control/access to them all at all times.

    In some ways Me is like the opposite of a Timelord. She retains her personality (or rather, her personality continues to develop in an uninterrupted line) but loses the memories of her previous self. This also means she can serve as a goodie or a baddie at various points in the future.

    a lot of moaning about cocktails on the Guardian, given that she’s functionally immortal. Maybe she goes on to officially ‘invent’ the cocktail 150 years later? on the other hand, introducing her to cocktails is pretty much the kind of thing Missy or River might do. Missy seems likely because of ‘anachronisms!’ River seems possible because of the diary thing.

    I liked the joke telling on the gallows, the desperation of trying to keep people laughing to put off his death, if only for a few more moments. The lion man looked familiar, I actually thought we’d seen his kind before, but I might be thinking of a Beauty and the Beast costume or something like that. There was an odd balance of light and dark, and I think this is why I liked the gallows humour. We tend to laugh out of a sense of discomfort, which is why black humour works so well. The alien threat was certainly secondary, but I think that was partly because this was one of the episodes that demonstrated that one alien threat earth is constantly after is posed by the Doctor. And that seemed to be what Me was saying- in the nicest possible way.

    #45651
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @ichabod There are different brain-capacity paths in fiction about immortality (eg the Heroes brain or the Ashildr brain), just as there are different approaches to how ageing works (or doesn’t) in same. I thought the forgetting was a more interesting choice, and tied in well with how people whose timelines cross the Doctor’s experience a change in memory, but don’t remember in the present until he actually goes back into the past and tweaks something.

    #45652

    @pufferfish

    Then again, human beings who live the normal three score-and-ten are said to use only 10 per cent of the brain’s capacity (possibly 20 per cent, can’t remember exactly)

    This is complete nonsense. It is one of those myths that has zero basis in truth.

    #45653
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    well, if someone can point out to me how I can actually hayness the power in my brain I’d be devilishly satisfied.

    #45654
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @pufferfish — afraid @pedant is right. Check out Great Myths of the Brain by Christian Jarrett.

    #45655
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Oh dear, I think I’ve confused some of you! I’m not in any way married to the brain-capacity idea as being correct; I only sought to point out that it’s an option in fiction that wasn’t taken here. Fiction. Made-up. And let me reiterate that the full-brain/memory-loss concept is a lot more interesting to me, especially where this story is concerned.

    #45656
    janetteB @janetteb

    I suspect that those who complain about the guitar are simply looking for anything at all to complain about. Sniping for the sake of it. I do understand objections to the glasses but as my S/O was playing about with wearable technology and making his own computery sunglasses about ten years ago, before they were a “thing” I find the concept of sonic sunglasses rather quaint. I did not even really notice them in this episode so they certainly weren’t overtly featured.

    @miapatrick I rather like the suggestion that Missy or even better, River visited Ashildr, discussed the foibles of the Doctor and mixed a few cocktails, and as a result Ashildr then popularised the concept some centuries later meaning that cocktails are yet another bootstrap paradox.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #45657
    spacedmunkee @spacedmunkee

    When Ashildr mentions a death is required to activate the amulet the doctor says something like

    Every death causes a tiny fracture in reality

    a fracture. . .  like a ripple.

    Now how many Claricles have died throughout history saving the doctor?

    Enough to create a tidal wave?

    @starla

    yes I thought it strange that ashildr would be so dismissive of Clara, given she helped her and was so nice to her in previous episode. Possibly she was jealous that the doctor chooses to travel with a “Mayfly” rather than her

     

    #45658
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    On Friday I was oblivious to the fact that Wills & Kate were in Dundee mingling with us mere mortals….!

    I was too busy listening to (current Dr Who magazine comic artist) Mike Collins on his comic work & on his storyboard work, especially on Dr Who.

    On the Wednesday we had already had the honour of hearing from Dave Gibbons (the original Dr Who Mag comic artist) about his work; as part of the Literary Festival.

    Now on the Friday we were treated to a couple of talks from Mike (who I’ve followed since his Slaine [2000AD] days).

    Here are some titbits about the show which he revealed to us…

    Flatline – Mike Suggested the use of the TARDIS (siege mode) as a paper weight to hold the railway poster on the table. This was met with a response along the lines of, ‘How very dare you!’ It did transpire in the televised show though…!

    Death in Heaven- Originally the TARDIS was meant to dramatically fall out of the plane but the aircraft door was too small…

    Magician’s Apprentice – The hand mines were originally to have closed & reopened with teeth…

    Witches Familiar – The roof beam which drops on Dalek was originally deemed too expensive. It was filmed though, but apparently they broke the wrong Dalek (a fully functional one rather than a dummy prop).

    Under the Lake – It was a stunt man who rolled under the door (rule number 1: don’t break Peter)

    Girl Who Died – The upside down eyes at the beginning were devised by Mike…

    The Mire were supposed to walk into Longhouse but (once again!) the location door was too small…

    mike c
    Mike also showed us his original storyboards which were smaller than you might imagine.
    Thanks to Mike and to Dave Gibbons for their time & insightful dialogue.

    Wills & Kate who?

    #45659
    geoffers @geoffers

    upon re-watch, i took extra notice of this line, from me to the doctor, when she’s telling the story of being accused of being a witch: “fortunately, i’m very good at holding my breath.”

    an echo of clara! it almost sounds as if me/ashildr is talking up her abilities, maybe applying for the “job” of next companion?

    also, @kharis , her highwayman character was given the name of “the nightmare.” perhaps a none-too subtle clue that she may, indeed, live long enough to become (to have been? lol) “the nightmare child?” it doesn’t strike me as too fantastical to think that the doctor might have accidentally “created” one of the worst things to happen in the time war. although, i’ve always imagined the nightmare child as much younger than 18-ish (like the boy in “the empty child/the doctor dances”). still, great bonkers-ing…

    #45660
    Cybercat @cybercat

    Firstly hi! Been engrossed in all of your bonker-ising. Thoroughly good fun!

    @geoffers I’m too amazed at the number of lines and similarities referenced to Clara by Ashildr.

    Clara may well be killed off. But who was Clara Oswald? Run little boy run and remember.

    Ashildr?

    “And how many have you lost? How many Claras?

    I can’t remember most of it. That’s the trouble with an infinite life and a normal sized memory.

    Make me feel again, then run away? I don’t need your help, Doctor, you need mine. Just this once, you can’t run off like you usually do.”

    I think Ashildr has been helped by Missy. To time travel and is able to change her face with tech. So wanting to get out of the boredom of immortality she struck a deal with Missy in return for info. The real Clara is present day but her appearance has been hijacked, travelled in time to practice being ‘Clara the companion’.

    The doctor has known for sometime there are inconsistencies with Clara.

    There you go thrown in my odd bonker contribution!

    #45661
    django @django

    @countscarlioni

    Why is calling for a cocktail such a huge crime? It’s not that anachronistic. The first recorded use was in 1798, only 150 years later and it’s perfectly possible that the word was in popular usage before this record was written.

    #45663
    Cybercat @cybercat

    And just to continue with that bonker-ising above. Interestingly the first time we met Clara (Oswin Oswald) in Asylum of The Daleks she has been converted from human into a Dalek and has coped by retreating into a fantasy of her own intact survival. Isn’t that what Ashilda did when we first met her?! Retreated into a fantasy…

    Don’t know how this can all fit in with the supposed ‘impossible girl’ sort of resolution we were given..

    #45665
    django @django

    @cybercat

    Perhaps we’ll find out that everything from 7b onwards has been false and somewhere upon a cloud above Victorian London Matt Smith is about to step out a shower! 😉

    #45666
    Cybercat @cybercat

    @django

    ha yes..

    Ashilda has to be linked to Clara surely. Too many connections cropping up.

    But then I was convinced Danny Pink was something more than he was last series.. Still got the Orson Pink to tidy up though?

    Id love Matt Smith to pop out of a shower though! 🙂

    #45667
    DoctorDoctorWho @doctordoctorwho

    I’ve heard some people say this episode had poor directing, I  didn’t notice it, could anyone point it out to me please? Thanks! 🙂

    #45668
    Mersey @mersey

    @countscarlioni @purofilion

    Doctor already lost Amy and governess-Clara. And he was really devastated by their deaths. I don’t know if Moffat want to stake on the same card. But maybe 12th can cope with her loss much more better than 11th. He is a very ambiguous charater in case of feelings. He couldn’t understand the feelings of the crew who lost their friends (cards in Under the Lake) but he was so moved by the death of a girl that he made her immortal. Is he really devoted to Clara or it’s just a sense of duty? He definitely owes her.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by  Mersey.
    #45670
    Cybercat @cybercat

    @doctordoctorwho

    the only thing I felt (but nothing to do with direction really) was that the doctor didn’t explain why he couldn’t take Ashilda with him other than ripples/waves or something terrible.. ?

    But he has been taking companions for lifetimes..

    Ashilda clearly has something to do with his companions. The doctor owes Ashilda? I think Ashilda is driven now by her desire to get away from Earth. Missy will have manipulated this. What better than to have an allegiance with an immortal over the time trail..

     

    #45671
    lisa @lisa

    Clara was born to save the Doctor from any risk. It seems justified that Ashildr
    is a bit distraught over having lived thru so many difficult events of her slow path.
    I’m thinking she might have morphed into a risk. So I wonder about what she wants to
    accomplish.
    So maybe she saved the world because she didn’t like the alien interference. That impact
    would mean severe interference to her ambitions. Look at the lives she choose to live. She
    is extremely ambitious and tenacious. That photo of her felt like her message was game on
    to the Doctor.
    The enemy inside the friend.

    #45672
    Cybercat @cybercat

    @lisa

    Ashildr does appear menacing. But I suspect that is born out of resentment she hasn’t been supported by the doctor since the fate he beset her. I don’t think she is concerned about aliens. If anything she most probably considers herself one now too and wants to be part of the gang!

    Many many years have passed since she appears at those gates ‘observing’ Clara. Enough time to figure out a plan with maybe a bit of time travel help..

    #45673
    Brewski @brewski

    @all

    Have a lot of catching up to do before I weigh in on this episode,  but wanted to toss out one scary bonkers idea first:

    The amulet opens a bridge to other dimensions, but someone has to die for it to work.

    What if another dimension it opens to is where Galifrey is?

    And what if Clara sacrifices herself to get to it?!

     

    #45674
    SirClockFace @sirclockface

    In my opinion I would rather like the guitar to stay for it gives an extra bit to the 12th like the 11th had his bow tie and the 10th had his 3d glasses. an at some point I would rather like to see him have a guitar duel with a famous guitarist from history.

    Plus are we all agreed that Clara is going? Because a lot of us, me included, are finding ways for her to go now.

    #45676
    Whisht @whisht

    ah @brewski I think the idea that death releases energy (in all episodes so far) and opens up dimensions etc is definitely a way to bring back Gallifrey.

    Its almost not bonkers!

    😉

    But not sure if Clara sacrificing herself for that is where I see it going but what do I know!

    On an aside, in terms of Clara I see her as the “bootstrap girl” – a loop in terms of existing so that she can save Smith by jumping into the Doctor’s timestream so that she could splinter into linear Claricles, one of which is born into 11’s timestream so that she can exist at the point where she jumps into his timestream.

    However she’s pulled out of his timestream, so that she can be both a loop, but her timeline now has a dangly bit, that will have an end.

    Like a … noose.

    8¬o

    #45679
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @whisht

    Great idea about Clara as bootstrap. My latest thought is that the Doctor made Ashildr immortal for the precise purpose of following (guarding?) Clara through the her life/lives, and…to be there at the end. In other words to oversee Clara’s end.

    There is a sci-fi precedent for this–Arthur C. Clarke’s “Childhood’s End”.

    Still thinking this through. Obviously time for a wine to aid the thinking process.

     

    #45680
    lisa @lisa

    It occurs to me that first the Doctor spies on Ashildr at the leper colony and now she
    is spying on him and Clara. Dysfunctional much? She seems to have some clues about
    the Doctor and my bonkers theory is she ran into Rory who was also taking the slow path
    back home guarding Amy 🙂

    @whisht To your point about following Clara – I think she told the Doctor she would
    be following all his companions and Capdoc put on a peculiar expression when she said it.
    Maybe she got this idea from Rory who was Amy’s roman guard. Nah- that’s too weird

    I like this mystery. It has a similar feeling to me as the River Song mystery unwind had.
    River became extremely significant and I have a hunch we are getting a 2.0
    They both keep diaries and have library connections. Me lady vs Melody. Wow, that’s even weirder

    #45687

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    My latest thought is that the Doctor made Ashildr immortal for the precise purpose of following (guarding?) Clara through the her life/lives, and…to be there at the end. In other words to oversee Clara’s end.

    I rather like this, but I think the creation of Me was born a little too much out of passion to support the Doctor as creator-with-a-plan here. It seems to me that Ashildr has appointed herself guardian of the discarded and, once she has done that, could hardly fail to note a series of dead mid-20a girls with a striking resemblance to the one she remembers from way back when. The first one might be “Oh, that’s sad – I used to know her”, but the second and subsequent would be “Hang on a minute, test tube babies haven’t even been invented yet.”

    #45688
    geoffers @geoffers

    @cybercat – i also think missy is involved, somehow. re: this exchange…

    me – “just this once, you can’t run off like you usually do.”

    doctor – “how do you know what i usually do? we’ve met once, in a viking village, i didn’t give you my life story…”

    me – “it’s true, though. isn’t it? you’re the man who runs away.”

    doctor – “ohhh. who told you that?”

    that’s almost a direct quote of missy, from ‘the witch’s familiar,’ when the doctor is removing clara from the dalek. (if that’s what happened, of course. she may still be in there!)

    that’s a very creepy thought, that me might be a clara imposter, at some point. i can’t see how it would work (even with missy’s help), but they do look so very similar. and there is precedence in the who universe, that the doctor can be fooled by mere appearances, if the circumstance allows. the rani did so to mccoy’s doctor, at one point, impersonating mel (if memory serves correctly)…

    but as to why he refuses to take her away? he refused the young woman soldier in ‘into the dalek,’ merely on the basis that she was a soldier. surely he prefers companions who aren’t killers?* (or psychopathic killers, like missy, which is what he’s fearing has happened to ashildr?)

    * at least in AG who. leela was a “savage,” who had surely killed, and four took her on, anyway. maybe the time war has made him wary (and weary) of humans who are too quick to take a life?

    🙂

    #45690
    nerys @nerys

    I have a little trouble with the idea that Me/Ashildr is impersonating Clara, and the Doctor wouldn’t spot it. After all, in the Christmas special he said he always saw Clara as Clara, even when she was an aged Clara. There was a brief moment when we in the audience saw the younger Clara, and then she was the older one again. The Doctor doesn’t see appearances, but rather the essential personality, I think.

    My hugely bonkers theory (except I can’t work out in my mind how this would be pulled off) is that Clara has been trapped inside the Dalek ever since Missy shoved her in there. The Doctor knows this, but is shielding her from the knowledge. Now, how would he make it so that everyone else sees Clara, and not a Dalek? A hologram wouldn’t be convincing enough, and couldn’t interact with others the way Clara has. Obviously I’m not smart enough to figure out my own theory. So much for my plot-writing abilities!

    Having said that (because I just can’t let go): Would that explain why the Cloister Bell keeps going off like mad? If a Dalek is on board the Tardis, isn’t that a dire emergency, one of the most serious threats the Doctor could face? But I don’t recall the Cloister Bell going off at the end of this last episode, when Clara greeted the Doctor. So there goes that idea.

    Would this fulfill Davros’ hybrid prophecy? Probably not, since that’s what Daleks do anyway. Another area where my bonkers theory falls short.

    However … if my bonkers theory turns out to be more or less accurate, then I see Clara coming back full circle to the tragedy that was Oswin. And it will be even more heartbreaking, given what she means to the Doctor.

    #45692
    lisa @lisa

    @nerys That’s a fascinating idea and might account for the sunglasses.
    However Clara’s end shakes out its going to be 1 breathtaking twist!

    I think it will be involving Lady Me and whether we get Daleks or Missy
    well why not?

    #45693
    Missy @missy

    @bluesqueakpip

    Granted that she is very young and perhpas the word ‘woeful’ was a little harsh. But, as to her age, Lucy griffiths was around 18/19 when she played Marion in Robin Hood, and I found her very convincing.

    I feel that this actress is mediocre at best, she lacks that certain spark, which makes you sit up and take notice.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #45696
    Missy @missy

    @arbutus

    As I’ve poste. Lucy griffiths was only 18 too.
    Still, each to their own opinion.

    Cheers

    Missy

    #45697
    nerys @nerys

    Hmmm, @lisa that could indeed be the reason for the sonic sunglasses. The Doctor sees her as Clara, and somehow the sunglasses make it so that everyone else (except the Tardis) sees her that way. And except for Lady Me, who is there to let the Doctor know she knows exactly what’s going on. Maybe thanks to Missy, who unlike River is big on spoilers.

    Returning to @kharis and her remarkable catch on Me/Ashildr’s wardrobe as she photobombed Clara’s selfie with her student, I wonder if she dressed up like Clara’s mother because Clara’s mother, and father, and the leaf, were nothing more than a story that Clara believes is her own? Clara has a journal with the leaf, correct? Maybe the journal included a description of her mother, and Lady Me (who has written so many of her own journals) has read it. Clara believes these stories in much the same way Dalek Oswin believed she was still human. Why would Clara need stories? Same reason Oswin needed to distract herself with Carmen and souffles. I wonder if, after jumping into the Doctor’s time stream, Clara was changed, no longer truly human … but a hybrid? And now, with Missy’s help, she has been transformed even further. Ah, the imagination runs wild!

    Still, didn’t Davros accuse the Doctor of being responsible for creating the hybrid? Hard to see how he could be blamed for this, since it was Clara’s idea (and River tried to stop her) to jump into the Doctor’s time stream. And then it was Missy who shoved her into the Dalek. Hmmm … I like my theory for its dramatic possibilities, but it’s a giant plot sieve.

    #45700
    lisa @lisa

    @nerys So just wondering if there might be some way to connect Clara’s book of impossible places
    with Me who was a journal maker/keeper? Clara doesn’t have a lot of knowledge about her Mom as far
    as I can tell. Clara needs her stories for the same reasons as Me – to build memories.
    To my mind there are several candidates as hybrids. I was thinking though that Clara could have already
    had a hybridish super power to survive the time stream. Maybe if she was born of an immortal mother
    then could she have the ability to resist death going into that time stream?

    #45702
    Anonymous @

    @lisa @nerys

    this is truly wunderbar bonkerising.

    So ultimately, the Doctor wears this ‘sonic’ tech (wearable tech) to ‘see’ Clara the way she ‘really’ is -not a human, but a hybrid. I always wondered why Clara, beyond teaching, had a small unlit flat, no friends, no ‘moving’ forward, as it were: I was always a bit unsure as to her position in life -but then again, knowing what teaching children in those areas is actually like -she’d be unbearably busy, I would think, and that’s an excellent excuse to ensure Miss Oswald has no other life to keep her busy -few relationships and ‘just’ her life flying about the stars with the Doctor.

    But I like @nerys , and lisa, that there’s a reason why the Doctor is wearing those glasses in particular. As for Lady Me’s role in this, I have no real idea.

    On another matter I was watching Voyage of the Damned with the delightful Astrid Peth, and hearing the resident Baddie, Max Capricorn saying ‘we could have worked together, you and I, with your banter, you’re rather good.”

    So, he’s on record as being “against banter” but in his past lives, he’s used it widely.

    Wonderful 🙂

    #45703
    Anonymous @

    Now that I’m watching Episode 1 of the final of Tennant’s series, with Adipose, the Nanny, as it were, has her own ‘glasses’ and of course have people forgotten (not us! Those newbies; angry because of said sunglasses) that Tennant wears ‘reading’ glasses for no real purpose -maybe there was a purpose but I can hardly remember.

    Still: glasses:  whey-hee hay!

    #45704
    nerys @nerys

    @lisa @purofilion I enjoy your splendid expansions on my theory. But now my brain is done trying to tease this out. Can you believe this is keeping me up at nights? It is! (That and too much caffeine yesterday and today.)

    #45705
    ichabod @ichabod

    @spacedmunkee  yes I thought it strange that ashildr would be so dismissive of Clara, given she helped her and was so nice to her in previous episode. Possibly she was jealous that the doctor chooses to travel with a “Mayfly” rather than her

    I think so too — she clearly had expected that Clara was long gone, being just a mayfly, so Clara’s still welcome but Me is not — she’d be ticked off, given how badly she wants to travel with the Doctor herself.

    @wolfweed  Thanks for the tidbits!

    @django  . . . calling for a cocktail . . . It’s not that anachronistic. The first recorded use was in 1798, only 150 years later and it’s perfectly possible that the word was in popular usage before this record was written.

    Good point; the term did stick out though, as if we need to take note and remember it for a later reveal, so . . . ??

    @doctordoctorwho  I’ve heard some people say this episode had poor directing, I didn’t notice it, could anyone point it out to me please? Thanks! 🙂

    The gripers are *always* griping about the directing, when not griping about the writing.  If they just say that, without giving any specific examples, it’s baloney, griping for its own sake.  And if there *are* examples, the gripers are responsible for finding them and pointing them out.  Til then, I say it’s spinach, and I say the hell with it.

    @cybercat   the doctor didn’t explain why he couldn’t take Ashilda with him other than ripples/waves or something terrible.. ?

    I *think* he meant that two immortals, each struggling to hang onto their human-scale feelings in order to deal decently with humans (and other mortal species too) might each reinforce their longer, colder, immortal perspectives instead and become twice as dangerously high handed and distant as each one on their own.

    @lisa   She is extremely ambitious and tenacious. That photo of her felt like her message was game on
    to the Doctor.

    I don’t read Lady Me as ambitious — she’s lived long enough (800 yrs!) to practice, say, forgery to perfection, and could climb the ladder of wealth and influence pretty high if she chose to; instead, she’s taken the “low road” of highway robbery, for thrills and distraction, I should think.  Tenacious, yes — or she wouldn’t still be alive.  I agree about the selfie, though — though whether it means, “I’m coming to getcha” or “See? I said I’d be keeping an eye on you and your doings”, we can’t know yet.

    To my mind there are several candidates as hybrids. I was thinking though that Clara could have already had a hybridish super power to survive the time stream. Maybe if she was born of an immortal mother then could she have the ability to resist death going into that time stream?

    You know, lisa, that whole Time Stream thing, where she was warned that she, the original Clara, would die, has never set right with me.  So why, and how, did she survive after all?  Her survival does seem to indicate some kind of special powers, the powers that make into the Impossible Girl.

    @brewski  The amulet opens a bridge to other dimensions, but someone has to die for it to work.  What if another dimension it opens to is where Galifrey is?  And what if Clara sacrifices herself to get to it?!

    Oh, that’s lovely — not sure I see enough urgency in the Doctor about getting to Gallifrey to power that sacrifice, though — yet, anyhow.  He seems to me to be quite committed to zooming around to adventures (“anywhere you want”), giving Clara a high old time to the best of his ability — because he knows how it ends.  I don’t think there’s time for him to think much about Gallifrey in this series — he’s too preoccupied thinking about *not* thinking about what he knows he’s going to lose.

    @blenkinsopthebrave  Great idea about Clara as bootstrap. My latest thought is that the Doctor made Ashildr immortal for the precise purpose of following (guarding?) Clara through the her life/lives, and…to be there at the end. In other words to oversee Clara’s end.

    I’d really like that, but — it’s kind of — cowardly?  I don’t think he could bring himself to leave that task — seeing Clara to her finale — to anyone else.  The Doctor *needs* to face the pain his actions/inactions have caused; if he stops doing that, if he fobs it off on someone else or ignores or dodges it, he becomes exactly what he was afraid Ashildr had become: a distant, uncaring, god-like monster of casual cruelty.

    #45707
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod I do like your civility -your ability to take others responses and summarise them and then make wonderful connections -it’s terrific. People like seeing their name tagged too -that all of us, in some way, are responsible for making assumptions and predictions -plausible or not, it’s wonderful. Who cares about ‘plausible’ anyway.

    I do think that you’re right about the Doctor needing t0 ‘be there’ for the end of his ‘creations’ or responsibilities: it’s an obligation that he rarely defies -thank goodness, otherwise he’d really be that uncaring and distant god you referred to. Though I can see the merit in @blenkinsopthebrave ‘s observations and ideas about the Doctor meriting an immortal change in Ashildr for a precise reason -he’s been known to plan and pre-plan -with Davros in our first two episodes for example.

    @nerys Oh no, I don’t think I’m expanding on anything -I just observe, really and watch what others are saying: it’s terrific, or as Nine would belt out, “fantastic”

    #45711
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Here’s my bonkers theory about why a death can open a door to another universe:  It’s a computer bug.  The multiverse is a giant computer simulation and a death forces a transfer of control that gives a brief window of opportunity to hack the system.

    This sort of idea should be very familiar to fans of the Fourth Doctor with serials such as Logopolis.

    This also enables Moffat to bring in more ideas from Snow Crash with the multiverse itself serving as the metaverse.   And this explains how dreams enable time and space travel:  dreams also involve a switch of control in the software of the multiverse and thus enables hacking the multiverse.

    So perhaps Missy was lying about how she obtained all of the souls in her Nethersphere.  What she did instead was to hack the universe and download some of its information into a Gallifreyan hard drive.

    This continues the trend this season where ghosts have some sort of physical presence including interactions with electromagnetism.  This enables a fusion of spiritualism with science fiction.  It is very much in the spirit of the Fourth Doctor serials and thus fans who grew up watching them as their introduction to the show.

    #45716
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    a like this idea -spiritualism as a fusion with SF.

    @kharis when we talk of tarot are we referring, in a way, to the historical realities of the 19th century where spiritualism was quite the ‘trend’ – I suppose, way back to 1820, the tarot was used with house guests during the summer season? It was seen as ‘a bit of fun’ much like the Ouija board was?

    #45722
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @everyone- I would say Masie is better in Game of Thrones- but she’s been doing it for so much of her life. Watching her act with Charles Dance was one of the best experiences in my life. She is very good, but creating a new character (or two) for this season is very different from growing up in a role. She will only get better. (As for Game of Thrones, I like it,

    (maybe spoilers but i think this was clear from the start:) all the interesting things happened about a generation before the start, hence quite a lot of hinting and exposition, but really its about silly humans squabbling over a bauble while the real fight is pretty much between nuclear weapons and climate change.

    Back to this- fantastic spot @kharis wasn’t it? I don’t think Me is Clara’s mother either. But this doesn’t mean a lot of Clara might now be understood. She ‘blew into life on a leaf’ which caused her parents, surnamed Ravenwood and Oswald to marry and some how (maybe maybe not biologically) have a child. Giving Me Norse (?) origins is interesting…

    JanetteB and a very nice bootstrap paradox they are too… love a cocktail.

     

    #45728

    @nerys @purofilion @sirclockface (who has also floated the “she’s still a Dalek” theory)

    There are also of course, the “stalky thing sticking out the the forehead” Daleks, who do not know they are Daleks until activated.

    #45733
    nerys @nerys

    @pedant Thanks for the reminder about others who have shared a similar bonkers theory. I didn’t mean to claim it was my idea alone. That’s just my version of the idea. And yes, I forgot about that type of Dalek. Hmmm … maybe not so bonkers after all!

    #45734
    Starla @starla

    <span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>@nerys</span>

    <em style=”line-height: 1.5;”> (Clara is still in the tardis…)<em style=”line-height: 1.5;”> The Doctor knows this, but is shielding her from the knowledge.

    Potentially using a lucid dreaming aide, from Dark Water. You know the one that induced the very real dream state where Clara believed she was destroying TARDIS keys?

    #45737
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @ichabod

    I’d really like that, but — it’s kind of — cowardly?  I don’t think he could bring himself to leave that task — seeing Clara to her finale — to anyone else.

    I can see your point, but I did not mean to imply an either/or scenario. The Doctor could well be there, but perhaps Ashildr might also be there to play a role in Clara’s end/departure that the Doctor cannot play. I haven’t worked this through myself, but while Ashildr and the Doctor might seem similar in that they can both seemingly live forever, they are very different, in that one is is a traveler in space and time, whereas the other is destined (it would seem so far) to live through time in one place only (Earth). I think this had something to do with why the Doctor did not take her onto the TARDIS.

    Still thinking…

     

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