General Open Thread – TV Shows

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

I noticed the DVD revert to misleading layout. This is the correct running order

Bargaining pts 1 & 2
After Life
Flooded
Life Serial
All The Way
Once More, With Feeling (68 min)
Tabula Rasa
Smashed
Wrecked
Gone
Doublemeat Palace
Dead Things
Older and Far Away
As You Were
Hell’s Bells
Normal Again
Entropy
Seeing Red
Villains
Two to Go (1)
Grave (2)

[Anonymous @]

@pedant thank you!  Thank god!  last thing I need is to screw up Menu -it’s upsetting already. I have watched the first ‘3’ -or ‘2’ as Bargaining are one full ep.

Now @cathannabel I might add that here, when Buffy returns, Spike knows immediately she clawed her way out of a coffin. Is he good or just perceptive? He orders Dawn to get first aid, and then quietly tries to deal with Buffy’s wounds. Is that good? When the others arrive barking at Buffy, are they good? Nope. They’re stupidly loud and won’t ‘back off’; they’re pretty stupid for bringing her back (except, well the show and ….Willow gone Voldermort -which is actually very worrying).

Later, Spike listens. He just listens and as you said, his lines are outstanding.

So, what is evidence of a soul? Is it layers of good things? Is it the man/monster who recognises Buffy can’t love him -she’s Buffy!! and then proceeds to do one good deed after another? Is this more man than monster?

Right from S6 we see this. I see it. No, no “I’m not very stoned” Pedant 🙂  I’m merely, thoughtful…Flaubert spoke about goodness as an amalgam of good acts, as did John Donne….”when one man say they are worse than all others, let him do good things. Let those good things build.”

As for Buffy -being in a place she perceived was Heaven and being ‘happy’ and now, torn away by her friends -the way she said it made me question her friends’ needs and motives. Xander, who loved her once (in a high schoolish way and now won’t announce his own engagement…Mmm) and still deeply cares for her, is the most pragmatic: “the snake, Will, what’s with that? Huhn? You didn’t mention that?”

I was wondering when the American Health System would get a bloody good serve! All those hospital bills…. and no equity, at all, on that rather large house which is a helluva lot bigger than mine? But yes, Hellmouth: no loans to be had.

No hope of paying them off I suppose.

Spike’s crypt is the best solution but now we have Buffy just showing up there…I foresee problems…I foresee nutty fanchicks erupting in orgasmic excitement (Flicking rubber band).

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

So, what is evidence of a soul?

It is fairly well established in the show that the soul is something distinct from the vessel that contains it. Spike does not have a soul and we have been given every reason to think that as soon as he is de-chipped he will revert.

(except, well the show and ….Willow gone Voldermort -which is actually very worrying).

Voldemort is a pussy alongide someone who when toe-to-toe with a a god and hurt her.

She has also got a real bad case of confirmation bias – but then Angel is the only example she knows.

Tara was concerned and in her own way so was Anya – but Willow stepped up when Buffy went catatonic so she is the natural authority figure, given that Giles is clearly grieving.

(Incidentally Giles is in the show less this season because Tony Head wanted to, you know, see his kids occasionally. This does set up the single coolest scene in ALL TV HISTORY, however.)

 

A wee bit of spoiler space

 

 

 

IF YOU HAVEN’T READ ‘FLOODED’ WAIT UNTIL YOU HAVE BEFORE READING ON

 

You have been warned.

 

This is, to me, key dialogue and was obviously so on first viewing (possibly because I am very familiar with the pattern). File for future reference

 

BUFFY: Why are you always around when I’m miserable?

SPIKE: ‘Cause that’s when you’re alone, I reckon. I’m not one for crowds myself these days.

BUFFY: Me neither.

SPIKE: (friendly smile) That works out nicely then.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant Darn it: No, I hadn’t watched all of Flooded having been taken with Fortitude (which I taped) and am now watching: it has Eccleston (who is probably not a nice person but a good actor) and Jessica Raine from An Adventure in Space and Time so I only read up to the point when you told me to stop!

I’m doing brilliantly. I really thought that, for a while, that Buffy -on the damn cover of S6  -was possibly just the Buffy sex-bot -I really thought Buffy herself would not appear for quite some time.

I shall watch the last 20 mins of Flooded soon.  I get that Spike has no soul but….he’s slowly gaining momentum as a ‘person’ of action -good action -at least at this point. I have no illusions -he must revert. He is nothing like Angel as Angel has a soul. I noticed that as Spike watched the Demons tearing up houses he smiled and Dawn caught him out….

We’re being reminded that he’s still Spike the Doomed 😉

(snaps rubber band less)

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

Ooh, I hadn’t realised Fortitude has the divine Ms Raine in it too.

Time to hit totallylegitimatedownloads dot com.

BTW by virtue of impending house sale and short-term no-fixed-abode status,I may be off the air for a bit, so it is quite important that you get through the 4 eps after Flooded as soon as – I am anxious to see your reaction to what happens

*twirls moustache*

*doesn’t have moustache*

*oh well*

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@pedant — you don’t think you’re getting a wee bit spoilery? We both had the luxury of letting the show unfold at our own pace. Think it’s only fair to let @purofilion enjoy the same thing as much we possibly can.

@purofilion — yes, I definitely think s6 is very much about friendship and the ways that friends (and lovers) can often act in totally selfish and destructive ways towards each other.

[Anonymous @]

single coolest scene in TV history?

is this the poster moment and the ‘urgh urgh’ rubber finger puppet which is the production company ‘sign’ which crosses the screen at the end of each episode? Not to mention the card and apple pie?

There are very many cool moments 🙂 I guess when people mentioned that S5 is awesome and S6 less so, I assumed it would be ‘ick’ from the opening but so far I am very impressed. Buffy’s misery and dislocation and Giles’ return as well as Willow’s evident wicca impressiveness is quite stunning. I’m also interested in the 147 days that have passed since Buffy’s death and the fact that Zander has asked Anya to keep their engagement quiet….It’s worrying. I like how Will and Tara moved into the Summer’s house to take care of Dawn and how necessary it was to keep Will’s magic (and the ‘return Buffy plan’) secret -the PT night at the school was a great diversion and an interesting aside about parents and school in not only Middle America, but pretty much everywhere else today.

I guess what I enjoy is that we have a sense of the entire Scooby’s ‘group growth’ (Spike is only a small part of all this) and the particular outstanding ‘witchiness’ of Willow; the demon being the Spell’s consequence; Anya’s obsession with the Magic Box and Giles’ reluctance to leave threaded with Tara’s definite and complete inclusion in this group -everything about her is strong and resolute now and I like that.

I believe that Michelle T as Dawn had some incredible scenes in the opening to S6 -perhaps more definite an outline of her character and her personality beyond The Key can be seen: as she’s taking Buffy around the house, washing Buffy’s face and trying to crack a joke about ‘either wash your neck or grow potatoes in it’ ending with “back off and leave Buffy alone” -shows she’s swapped roles and is now, temporarily, a lot stronger, more self-assured; Buffy’s carer in this new world. It’s given her greater depth.

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish -it’s A OK! I haven’t read anything remotely spoilery. I have only seen half of Flooded -and  nothing more that this have I ‘read.’  On the issue of Fortitude @pedant, I must say that it’s all VERY SLOW!  I’m doing other things whilst watching it -never a good sign.

Ah, next week has Stanley Tucci -this IS good. Much better.

[Anonymous @]

onto Flooded….right now (gleeful)

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

The BBC recently re-showed its 1982 adaptation of Smiley’s People. It was glorious and absolutely could never be made like that today. Alec Guinness actually had room to act.

[Anonymous @]

Oh my goodness, what is Jonathan doing in this? Being a ‘leader’ who hires this Demon Dude? After everything Buffy’s done? Not to mention the ‘robot pimp daddy’ and ‘flying monkey maker’ in the school play!!

Poor Giles, he lives on the sofa at Buffy’s …maybe he can pay for everything!! Sell that damn useless sport’s car 🙂 Sell the apartment in Bath!  -I didn’t much like Bath myself. It smells of dirty spa water.

“I don’t want to kill Buffy, she saved my life and plus, she’s hot.”

“but as this is my Mother’s house, I get the final say!”

“Chicks Chicks Chicks: mission statement”. Oh, this is very good.

Willow is getting far too “off on this” spell stuff: “oh, it was so cool that the Blair Witch would have to watch like this.”

Giles: “incredibly stupid girl. I trusted you…you rank, arrogant amateur” Wow. Crushing lines. Ripper is very real now -no stuttering, less glasses wiping.

I wasn’t lucky, I was amazing”. Will has a very large death wish in my opinion.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant I have that DVD -I also gave my brother that copy. It was the first DVD he’d ever owned. We’ve watched it many times.

Oh hang on,  the Demon’s in Dawn’s house and …Buffy’s baaaack.

“That’s a designer lamp, you mook”

Other than drowning Demon why was the Basement such a good idea?

Ah, “full copper re-pipe”. The nerds have a white board. This has gotta be good! Also on a different and earlier note we had “fire pretty.” It was a wonderful reminder.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant OK. I read the dialogue and heard it. “Not one for crowds either”

sooooo, what’s gonna happen? Lots of alone time ….? Will she turn to Spike in times of ‘aloneness’?

Filing…

[Anonymous @]

@pedant “off air?”  Well, that sux, what am I gonna do now?

4 eps, right-oh!  Good luck with the no-fixed abode situation. Like Giles, you might be on someone’s sofa? Hopefully, not with those sheets, though. You’d never live that down.

Those nerds are actually quoting Star Wars and perving on her. Someone’s naughtier than Spike! Well, almost (rubber band flicking).

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @cathannabel @jimthefish

Oh Jeezus. Can I shout?

A MUSICAL? I AM IN LOVE. NO, NOT SPIKE, ANYA: rockin’ about bunnies and twirling in red underwear. Will and Tara, unbelievably good. Do people like this episode? I can imagine fandom hating it. I LOVE IT!

“Why do you run away? Why don’t you come and play? I’m the heart of swing.” A sweeet two-step.

Meanwhile Dawn is still a klepto…

(And I got the parallel/imagery in the previous ep regarding ‘nice’ Vampire which Dawn didn’t recognise: “I like you too”.

Mmm).

“Something’s cookin’ and I’m at the griddle…now we’re partyin’ ” Awesome. Will we get some Footloose or Dirty Dancing? Coz I’m up for that! (ASH’ voice: outstanding. Outstanding)

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @jimthefish

I’ve finished the 4 episodes ending with Tabula Rasa. I had these whole paragraphs and ‘bam,’ I broke the internet.

So, I won’t type this all again -but it focussed on how telly does show us our inner selves.  We end up wanting.

I want Will to stop. I want Tara to forgive her. I need Anya to stop the wedding carry-on and for Giles to stay and I want Spike to be good.

If we don’t know the sea and think it’s just a child’s drawing: “choppy and crayon blue” how do we know it if we see it?

Is a soul joyous, indestructible and changeless? How do we know, if statically, it’s just the absence of malice?

This abusive relationship with Spike -as it has to be -is going to end up with one of them (if not both) glassy-eyed and hostile, tangled in leaves and dirt, spitting wildly.

I loved the Randy/Rupy connection and Spike all pressed up in brown suit: I loved the return of stuttery Giles (one last time) and the rabbits terrifying Anya as she keeps breeding them thru failed magic. Great imagery and terrific metaphor.

I can see what’s all going to go wrong -and yet still, ‘I want’. As I said: an insight into our own minds and inevitable flaws. I particularly liked the colour palette: Willow in black with darker makeup -almost ‘Goth’. Beautiful.

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

@purofilion – Shout all you like, pet, it’s Once More with Feeling and it is AWESOME.  OK, there may be some fans who don’t like it but they are very silly and we shan’t bother about them.  It’s beautiful and funny and dark, and it’s got songs that you actually spend the rest of your life singing at odd moments, and it totally works.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

Not only a musical but a brilliant one. The overwhelming reaction was massively positive. @cathannabel has it right about the haters.

Much truth sung (and nice use of the augmented fourth (or diminished fifth, I can never remember which way round it is) in Spike’s coda to Life (‘s A Show). It’s called the devils interval for a reason!).

“This isn’t real but I just want to feel”.

And “I’m under your spell” turned from a words of love to words of betrayal.

“The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.” Where have we heard that before?

The Mustard man was David Fury and the Parking Ticket Lady was Marti Noxon.

Michelle Branch made a bucketload of cash out of that song (it was used in Charmed at around the same time).

The Nerds are a very …. interesting… villain.

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@purofilion — I’m sure there were haters out there but I think the overall reaction to Once More With Feeling was overwhelmingly positive. It also spawned a host of copycat — and not as good — episodes in a few other shows (Zach Braff, I’m looking at you) but they did kind of miss the point. It’s not a musical episode just because that would be cool, but every song propels the narrative and character arcs.

And its real genius is that Whedon avoids revealing a major plot pivot point in what would otherwise have been an incredibly melodramatic way. By presenting Buffy’s reveal of where she’s been in song, it gets the emotional impact across without miring the arc in too much angst and pain too early on. It means we can progress on to dealing with other aspects of the over-encompassing season arc, like Willow’s addiction and later the Trio.

And Tabula Rasa is a fine episode as well. Too many priceless moments to mention but I love Giles and Anya as a bickering married couple and Spike and Giles’s Oedipal rivalry. Also the digs at Angel are quite fun too. And yet it ends with real sadness again as Tara and Willow’s relationship hits the rocks. But all in all it’s a great end to ASH’s time as an ongoing regular in the show.

[Anonymous @]

@Purofilion @cathannabel

Once More with Feeling tricked me and I skipped it the first time. 😮
Musical, Bleagh!!
I thought they were doing a whole episode Behind Blue Eyes joke. I didn’t understand it at all. But now it just gets better every time. Plus I’m defenseless against Anya’s Bunnies jokes.

@jimthefish

And its real genius is that Whedon avoids revealing a major plot pivot point in what would otherwise have been an incredibly melodramatic way. By presenting Buffy’s reveal of where she’s been in song, it gets the emotional impact across without miring the arc in too much angst and pain too early on.

That’s what I admire most. It’s at least 3x Mistress of Pain episodes into one, but not misery overload.

@pedant

The Nerds are a very …. interesting… villain.

They’re super-villains. 😆

Btw, hoping you’re not abode-free and/or away for long.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@barnable, @purofilion et al-

OMWF is incredibly layered. Look at Giles’s ‘Standing in the Way’ sequence. It’s not just the lyrics telling you the place Giles is in at that moment and foreshadowing his departure in the following episode, but the staging tells us lots about where Buffy is, reinforcing her denial. And on top of that you get ASH brilliantly selling Giles’s pain and reluctance at going. And all the other set-pieces are as similarly layered. It’s brilliant, brilliant story-telling.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Incidentally, BITD, someone did some calculations and concluded that Giles’s trip to England and back gave him about the time it takes to move from arrivals to departures to do all those things he said,  including renting the house in Bath and attending a Watchers’ Council meeting.

More significantly, it is evident that the Council knows nothing of Buffy’s death. No new slayer has been called. Ergo, the line flows through Faith now.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @jimthefish @barnable

The note he sings (coz I was bashing on the piano the second time around with the stereo turned up) is a chromatic 2nd going down. The chords move from B minor to B diminished.

The devil’s interval was traditionally the fourth -picture either C to F sharp or more correctly, in an ‘untempered’ clavier of the early Baroque period, F to B natural. That’s why fifths were used but never the fourth -it being a ‘yuck’ sound. Bach, in his preludes and fugues presented the well tempered new clavier with sounds and pitches more correctly calibrated.

Anyway, yes, Faith. There was a thought -running thru my head as to where the new slayer would be -it didn’t stay long, as I correctly figured it would need to be Faith. Some moron from work sent me a link to Buffy -I didn’t know what it was but when I opened it -it was a Youtube mashup of ‘Spike Hot’ – I watched about 30 seconds figuring (correctly) that this was porn but in the process noticed a comment at the top which said “series 7.” Something I didn’t want to know!

I now conclude Spike is in the rest of the show and no doubt in a highlighted role -when he told Buffy (in song) ‘go away’, I thought his involvement would diminish (I thought the stage ‘kiss’ was part of in-musical lore: end with Chorus or a kiss) and I now suspect that, in the bar scene and the tongue action outside, that Spike and Buffy have some kind of mutually abusive relationship. Ba! How is that going to work? She’s a vampire slayer. Major tenet of show people!

Jim, you’re quite right about the layering of both the dialogue and recitative mixed with the stage directions: every song and arc theme/motif was devoted to selling the plot -it was beautifully narrated and the 40s comic dance routine with Anya had me dancing along. I also loved the punky/rock portion about bunnies -poor Anya and her bunnies (which she wants incidentally in the form of babies -no wonder Xander is worried) and I presume there’ll be a wedding, at some point? Every show has gotta have a wedding. Actually, maybe not! The West Wing never had a wedding but then Twilight did. That was awful. I actually paid to see that movie with Boy Ilion who was ready to walk out. I wished I’d let him.

Every actor truly pulled out some serious stuff -you can see Emma Caulfield has some training? I don’t know about SMG, but she was excellent. As was Spike. Those slow numbers? Very difficult to pull off. Even Amber Benson’s songs were quite easy and predictably in range with a little ‘echo’ added in the sound studio to ‘poof’ out the high (tendency-to-squeak) register. Yes I noticed Marti Noxon. Hers was obviously the best voice of all -at first I thought they’d brought someone in but on closer inspection I realised it was Marti -I see that she’s been dubbed “the mistress of pain.”

I don’t get it.

Pedant: too true: Giles had no time at all to do anything except leave Customs and get in a queue for a train into London and back out again. A brother in law, many years ago, collected us from Heathrow and not knowing the lay of the land and not realising there were major road works, took us the long way round to Brentwood -it took four bloody hours and me holding Boy Ilion who was only two. We’d suffered through something like 32 hours in the air, several hours of tedious ground action, before piling into that car. I wanted to go back home.  I dislike long trips involving tired bratty children.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

Whedon wanted the feel of real people being made to sing, not of professional singers.

Alyson Hannigan was really uncomfortable with the singing (hence the “I think this line’s mostly filler” line and a short line in I’ve Got A Theory)

Michelle Trachtenberg didn’t want to sing but was happy to dance (good choice given her reedy voice).

SMG initially wanted a voice double, but was talked around. I think that worked superbly.

James Marsters had (and I think still has) his own rock band.

Nick Brendon was wary but – as ever – through himself in with abandon.

And Tony Head, of course, is schooled in The Rocky Horror Show

But Emma C was apparently the biggest surprise. (She is very smart – and has often implied that acting is not her long term goal. She has a psychiatry or psychology qualification and did a excellent YouTube ‘Agony Aunt’ thingy called essenemma for a while).

There is an excellent feature on the DVDs about the making of (and also a sing-a-long version) that I don’t think is too spoilerly.

Oh, and the bride on the cover of the wedding magazine right at the start is Clare Kramer.

I don’t think you should worry about the idea of Spike being in S7. There is quite a ride to come.

You’d be amazed how many people hated the loan shark sight gag in Tabula Rasa. Humourless twats.

I am intrigued by your notion of a mutually abusive relationship….

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@purofilion — too bad you got slightly spoiled. I don’t think it’s giving too much away to say that Spike is a fixture until season 7 but it’s the journey of how he gets there that’s the interesting thing. (James Marsters btw was also in a band called Ghost of the Robot and I believe still knocks out occasional solo musical projects.)

The commentary to OMWF is well worth a listen, as always, and isn’t particularly spoilery. Gives a nice insight into the episode’s writing and also the sheer terror that Joss put many of the cast through.

And you’ll so get Noxon’s ‘mistress of pain’ epithet by the end of the season, I guarantee it.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @jimthefish

Yes, I can see that there will be pain to follow…hence the Mistress of Pain. I can see (with the end of Tabula R) that Tara is leaving Willow -this must mean she’s no longer a Scooby -and Giles is also leaving -no doubt necessary with family obligations and long term separations. In the show, though, I can see how Buffy leaves Giles to deal with young teenage ( ‘I want to experiment’) Dawn as well as other problems which routinely crop up. However, she has been dead and really needs a watcher -surely? So, whilst I understand ASH himself needing to return to the UK, I’m concerned it doesn’t fit ‘in show’ all that well. I can also assume (and it’s only that), as a cover, that he’s thoroughly pissed with Willow’s misuse of magic and leaves in a fit of frustration.

Ah, so Marsters is in a rock band. I knew, years ago, of the legendary musical accomplishments of ASH (being a huge fan of Ricky Rocky Horror).

As for this relationship that’s abusive -I can it has to be that way: in what realm would Buffy really fall for Spike? OK, so she’s been with Angel -as normal a relationship with a vampire as you can have. Riley was really re-bound guy and there was no flame on her side.

In any relationship there’s usually ‘one who loves more’. I think Spike is deeply ‘in love’ -or so we think he thinks! He needs her -and is obsessed with her -he would see that as love as would some nutter fans. Is it ‘true’ and ‘healthy’? Probably not and yet, what ‘flamey’ relationship in your early ’20s is healthy and true? Speaking from experience 🙂

So, having crawled her way out of a coffin, having been ‘torn’ from the comfort and ‘warmth’ of heaven by her friends and feeling quite disillusioned (in general) and having lost Giles -her super Dad and her Mum and with Dawn being a little older and consumed with pop music, lollypops, friends and clothes, what is appealing for Buffy right now (also Anya/Zander engaged)?

What’s left that’s ‘far from noise and crowds’?

Spike.

I would predict it’s abusive is so far as she’s doing this to counter her reactions to being earth bound. Spike would understand that. It’s not really for the ‘right reasons’, is it?

Would Spike’s obsession with her be termed ‘love’, or for a 100 year old vampire is it the closest you get to the infatuation vibe seeing Spike fumbling around with Cicely? I can’t imagine their relationship is going to be all tender and ‘what do you want from the grocery store, love?’ love.

Abusive? Maybe the wrong word entirely. God, I hope I didn’t suggest some sort of ‘hanging in chains’ porn? They keep showing, “previously on Buffy,” the ep where she’s literally chained up and saying “the only hope you had with me Spike was when I was unconscious!”

Is her ‘once dead, now alive’ close to Spike’s natural or elemental state? Is she so disillusioned that she’s unconscious at some level? Does she seek Spike’s attentions because it’s easy and she needs to feel some sense of awakening after 147 days dead?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

The ‘abusive’ issue will be a discussion for further down the road. I consider this part of the story to be written from truth, but it was a particular turn of phrase you use that interests me. Hope I’m still ‘on air’ when you get there!

The Giles arc wasn’t as well handled as it could have been – I think they relied very heavily on the viewer assuming a passage of time that didn’t really happen in “real time” and is harder to swallow on back-to-back DVD watching. However, in the character’s defence, I think it is fair to say that Buffy is not the only one with severe PTSD – and he stated as long ago as S2 how distressing he would find losing his Slayer. I think it is in-charatcer, but the writing relied a little too much on viewer recall.

BTW, the next run of episodes (the middle block, so to speak), despite some fab stuff, may seem to lack some of the polish we associate with Buffy – you might want to consider that this block was the block at various stages of production around 9/11. Some viewers refuse to make allowances for such things, but IMO, everybody who has empathy knows the feeling of not quite having your head in the game.  It is, most definitely, worth making those allowance because the end block of episodes is breathtaking and..well, you’ll see.

Although you are heading towards Worst. Episode. Ever. at a rate of knots 😉

[Anonymous @]

@pedant

goodness, made in and around 2001 -seems such a long, long time ago. I keep thinking that ASH went off to make an ep of Doctor Who -but that wasn’t until 2006 -7 by my poor calculations.

Indeed, it may lack polish  -that which is often associated with 40 million dollar blockbusters like ‘Waterworld’?

No, I assume you mean ‘not quite having the perfect blend’ of lines, line delivery and production elements?

And I’m fine with that -some of my fav Who episodes are apparently lacking in polish and yet like Buffy, withstand a test of time and circumstance.

Worst episode ever? Worse than Beer Bad? OK, because, you know, “fire bad tree pretty” wasn’t one I hated at all. It just wasn’t the best in a series of excellent episodes. But then certain ideas -such as Adam -and the nutty Initiative – was far worse for me -because it was the anchor of that series.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Personally I don’t think the Giles arc has been handled badly here at all. His departure has being seeded throughout the show since s4 and s5. His departure is a bit of a wrench but in s4 and s5, both of which times it looked like a possibility, his story didn’t feel done. But now I’d say it felt logical for him to go. And as @pedant says, he’s grieving the loss of his Slayer, then finding she’s alive again. Plus he’s recently just committed murder. I think we’ve got to cut the English guy some slack.

Not sure I’d say that the middle of s6 lacks polish so much as it was undergoing a tonal change. Joss is undoubtedly being distracted by both Angel as well as getting Firefly off the ground at this point so the other execs are getting to make more of a mark on the show. You can see it in everything from the writing to the even the production design, which is much more sombre now.

And worst episode ever? S6 might have a few mis-steps but it’s got nothing of Beer Bad levels of awfulness. I wouldn’t even say that there’s anything of Bad Eggs levels of eeughh either. It’s a quite dark ride, tonally it gets a bit samey and some episodes definitely work better than others but this time around I’ve come away considering s6 to be pretty tight-ish overall.

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish excellent -no duff episodes! I’m happy. And I can see, with some other perspectives, that Giles is ready to go. It must be awful to deal with a slayer’s death and then see this same slayer come back. Also, what life does he really have? It was Boy Ilion, who said the very same to me last night: “when is he going to move on?”

Ah, now Spike: “you’ve got no-one else, pet”. He really is charming with the loving words n’all!

On another matter, this disc, three, is completely stuffed. It keeps defaulting to Special Features. I was nearly throwing the thing out of the newly done bathroom window. By pressing all the remote buttons at once and saying ‘revelo’, I was able to find ‘smashed’.

And… the security guy the Nerd Trio are referring to is called: Rusty.

Rusty The Dalek?

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish I really find there are some complex issues here. And some awfully pedestrian ones in Smashed. Willow is unbelievably in denial about her magical ability and to what extent she can use it. Xander seems to be concerned about her -meanwhile Buffy is trying to explain her conflicted situation to Willow (regarding Spike) and is disturbed by…rat!

How are you?”

“Rat. You?”

“Dead”.

Marvellous.

The issue I will always have with Buffy is her plain nastiness toward Spike: “You’re an evil, disgusting thing!”

Oh, come on already! Is this endless bitchiness necessary? Is it some left-over from the ’90s that she needs to be so stereotypical? I don’t think this is some ‘denial of Spike’ behaviour. It’s not “she protests too much.” It’s just annoying. It lacks nuance.

Of course, as soon as Spike is able to bite someone (and thinks he can) we hark back to that “I’ll find myself someone and have me a real good day”. I hadn’t forgotten that phrase and was waiting for his recidivism. But as the writer himself said,

“Does he want to bite the girl or does he want to want to bite the girl?”

Because I get the impression he doesn’t and would he have stopped? We’ll never know.

Then, I imagine the writer had some flack for what I’d say is teetering on the brink of the use of sex and violence, together. It’s almost funny if I wasn’t so concerned about this abusive relationship -mutually – that Spike and Buffy will have: she’s not quite ‘normal’ and he’s neither human nor vampire.

I’m not sure I like this particular writer: like a few of them he says, “wait for it. Waaaait: Look my name is coming up. In Buffy font!  Look: there IT IS!” Yeah, OK. Good stuff n’ all but is this a uniquely American thing to pat oneself on the back repeatedly as with, “this quote is the best quote in Entertainment Weekly: ‘Give it to me Spock, I don’t speak loser’ ” Terrific  😉

He then says “Joss is a waste being straight”. Oh Jezzus, turn off commentary. I did find this particular episode rather ‘straight’ myself and lacking in the layering I’ve come to expect. The writer is “so excited getting the gig,” he loses focus.

[Anonymous @]

“punching Buffy is not like punching a normal girl” says the writer.

No, I disagree. The girl is still a girl. Who is this twat? What else does he write that I should avoid?

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish @pedant

I don’t know, but I think Cracked isn’t doin’ it for me, either. So Smashed and Cracked or Smashin’ and Crackin’ as I’ll call them (I’m only 20 mins into the latter, but still) will be avoided by the Boy -or maybe we’ll watch the first Act of the former?

I like the Trio and the dialogue with Amy but the rest….meh and ick….It’s the colour palette and the definite moody blues & grey darkness; I don’t think it fits well -there’s no corresponding gesture or ‘waiting on the liminal doorstep’ moment where we see a change of texture.

When the hitchhiker came back with Buffy following the Night of Horror, the Scoobs sat outside the sunshine- lit back porch. I dunno much about writing but I do know that a release of pressure -just in the right place, even in the middle of two episodes, adds measured counterpoint or a chromatic line in the ‘score’ -that much I can sense.

It really is darker in tone and I suppose that’s necessary. A part of their (the scoobs) growing up? Or a lack of a sufficient (or a preferable) helmsman? Mistress of Pain and Blame, indeed.

[Anonymous @]

sorry that’s Wrecked not Cracked.

[Anonymous @]

aaand a The Shining reference (in ‘Gone’)  -not to mention other references. Mrs Kroger is, I think, one of the cast of LA Law from a long time ago?

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @jimthefish @barnable what is HAPPENIN’ in this Double Meat Palace? Is there actually a place like that? At least Maccas serves chicken or beef or fish. Buuuuut, there is beef with bacon so that’s ick (I haven’t had a burger in years: unless it’s my own) though I have fries occasionally. Why am I saying this? Probably because this DMP episode is quite odd. Not sure what to make of it -those few episodes in the middle are slightly’ off’.

Actually, nooo, I don’t think I’m gonna eatin’ many fries no more.

Oh and Spike and Buffy outside..doin’ the ..you.. know. Eeuw.

Painful

[Anonymous @]

Ok so DMP? is it me, but is the snake thing coming of Wig Lady’s head some kind of serious phallic imagery, or what?

Moving on.

I’m pretty sure, the part at the very end -the new manager at The Palace, is Kirsten someone? Sure she’s in The West Wing.

It’s her Okie accent. Whilst I can’t place her in the show -I’m sure as cherry pie, that she’s in it, though.

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@purofilion — is the writer in question Drew Z Greenberg? If so, yeah, he’s quite annoying and Hollywood self-obsessed, although personally it’s Doug Petrie that grinds my gears the most.

Yeah, in terms of design the show has gone really dark. The clear contrast between light and dark, the sunlit world and the demon-filled night seem to have gone now. Again, I suspect the Angel influence. s6 seems to have a very Angel-ey colour scheme.

I suspect Gone or Doublemeat Palace must be @pedant‘s worst episode ever and I must admit I really don’t love them but I was always involved enough in the Spuffy/Trio/Willow arcs to enjoy them well enough. Gone especially does try my patience somewhat though. Invisible Buffy, kind of lame really.

I must admit I had big problems with s6 when I first watched it and didn’t really appreciate it until the second or third rewatch. It is definitely dark and rather one-notey. I think part of the problem is that Joss is distracted elsewhere. S5 went to some very dark places but it had texture and contrast. After the joy of Once More With Feeling and Tabula Rasa, we have to get through a long stretch of darkness. There is still humour in there obviously, but it’s woven so deeply into the tapestry of gloom at the moment that it’s providing less of a contrast.

And yeah a lot of Smashed/Wrecked is not subtle in the slightest and probably could have been done better. I feel the Willow addiction stuff was handled a bit clumsily but is still effective (and affecting) enough. I think Alyson Hannigan really helps to sell it.

I think part of my problem on first watch was firstly I was still missing Giles. It was time for him to go definitely but his absence is definitely felt and I guess that is part of the point of the arc. With Giles and Joyce (and Tara) gone, the Scoobies start to spiral out of control. Also by this time these are people I’ve come to love. It hurts to see them in so much pain, seemingly without respite.

But don’t worry. It’s got a kick-ass resolution.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion @JinTheFish

Gone is a very good example of an ep that is not quite polished. It is not a single thing, but quite a few small things, even the sound mix was a bit off. I rather like Doublemeat Palace, despite its flaws.

I’m OK with Smashed/ Wrecked. It’s imagery of addiction is very true, if a bit high contrast, and rather hammers home that it is not the substance (magic/ Spike) but the escape that is the thing and how easy that is to exploit.

You are about to hit the episode that was most cut by the BBC for its really evening showing. Very, very dark.

W.E.E now accelerating towards you.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@pedant — Dead Things very dark indeed. But utterly vital arc-wise.

Gotta admit I’m totally bemused by your W.E.E.

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish @pedant Yes, Greenberg: I decided to listen to the commentary but every time I heard him hurtling towards comments about S7 I put my fingers in my ear and “la la-ed”. Very mature.

I agree with the Giles absence.

Funnily enough, being on leave, I’ve watched perhaps 6 -7 episodes in one day but then had to rewind and fit in ‘serial’ with Boy Ilion. I immediately saw my problem: I missed Giles. I found myself asking “what would Giles do ?” in nearly every situation. Also, the darkness was acting on my nerves! Without a break from the ‘tension’ and what I perceived as misery around every corner, it was really getting to me! (you can tell, with all the exclamation points that I’m round the bend).

I found Dead Things utterly fascinating -if that was the one cut for ‘darkness’? Though I might have it mixed up. I suspect that this theme of ‘creatures of the night and dark’ established at the end of Flooded is explored thoroughly and yet there are times when it lacks a certain….neatness?

But then these issues of addiction, the absence of feeling, the panic of weddings and the confusion within Dawn are brooding and menacing -they can’t ever be neat and tied up with a bow. Even Gone says a lot about how Dawn is invisible, how Buffy cloaks herself in it and how empty Willow must be. It pushes the envelope. The interaction with Tara is wonderful: when Buffy, sobbing, begs her to re-check the spell to see ‘what’s missing’ and later, Tara’s knowing smile at both Buffy and Spike (trying to have a snog in the corner whilst trapped at number 1630) adds a little relief? As if there’s one person who understands Buffy’s need to ‘locate’ her feelings. Pity, Willow could just do a ‘locater’ spell of a different kind 🙂

In fact, I found that the lighter texture of Older and Far Away (trapped in house episode?), the moments of laughter and ditziness  (of playing monopoly and drinking soda) and creating bizarre canapés stirred some ‘quiet’ into the mix and I needed it. Dawn’s own habit has now been discovered but publicly and I notice that each character has some kind of ‘habit’. Except for Tara: she seems the most balanced and the least strung out.

I like the Trio -a different ‘big bad’ although the real bad is the inner landscape.

Also the new line manager at the Double Meat Palace is the actress who played the young Doris Landingham in Two Cathedrals – I knew she was, in some capacity, telling The President ‘off’. Of course he was a teenager then.

W.E.E. ?? Confused. But happily. So, not Dead Things? Because if we’re progressing to more darker territory, then watch out me!

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@purofilion — Dead things is a fine episode I think and the real darkness is the “shit just getting real” for The Trio. For all their previously geek-shtick, the Bond/Star Wars/Star Trek chatter, the boys just graduated from adolescent comic-book fantasies of power to becoming rapists and then murderers in pretty sharp succession. And this being Buffy, it’s going to have serious repercussions further down the line. As has been pointed out by the showrunners on the extras, in this season Life is the Big Bad.

Good point about all the manifold habits and addictions of the various characters. It means that no one, save Tara, can really speak from a position of authority on the problems of the others. No one has the moral high ground here. And Tara has almost taken the place that Joyce once held. The nurturing centre of reliability for Buffy’s extended family.

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish “the shit getting real.” Well put. I found their shenanigans quite (sadly) cool until they decided to conjure a sex slave -even the ‘failed’ up- the- surge plan of Warren’s wasn’t at all funny (obviously the point: everything has consequences says Spike at the beginning of the season). Then murder and trying to frame Buffy? Good grief. I suspect they’ll undercut each other when the shit really starts to fall and drowns them. Interesting also is Spike who attempts, ‘kindly’, to ‘take care of it’ and then the body washes up straight away. The Evil One indeed! His ‘six feet under’ as bad as Moonraker.

Quite right, Jim, no-one has the moral high ground -the further they climb, the harder they fall. And Tara, yes, she’s most like Joyce now, balancing her life without precarious sliding whilst patiently understanding people’s nuances.

I liked that Spike tried to suggest to Buffy that the job wasn’t ‘her’. But then, what else could she do? Magic Box: “I was bored even before the hour that wouldn’t end.” Construction? Summarily fired  by one of her best friends with ‘his shit together’ ….(I’m just looking at Twin Bridesmaids in the eyesore that is emerald green ‘with arms’….and Uncle Rory with no shirt. This is funny).

The moment at which she realises Riley is very happy and that his wife is a kick-ass, utterly lovely, confident woman is very poignant and also brought Riley and co. back into the show at the right time. I didn’t think I’d miss Riley at all -and yet I missed the black ‘n white attitude he conveyed in the Buffyverse: where monsters are monsters and you take ’em out. Of course I was thoroughly annoyed by that attitude and now I miss it: talk about pain! There’s massive internal haemorrhaging due to confusion.

Also, Buffy explaining calmly to Spike that using him was killing her: “I’m so sorry William.”

What will happen next? How will he take care of his loss? Who will he take it out on – properly put.

Will this marriage bring Anya and Xander closer together? Last I remember they were locked in the bathroom while demonic relatives trashed the apartment! How apt.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant I might add that when I said ‘abusive relationship’ I had no idea there would be actual handcuffs involved 🙂

Spike dangling handcuffs: “Do you trust me?” (pet)

“Oh yessss”

This morning, I took a break and watched the making of Once More with Feeling. A great little piece. Joss seems to be everywhere all of the time. No wonder he looks frazzled.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

RILEY: Suvolte demon. Rare, lethal … nearly extinct, but not nearly enough. It’s close.

(Buffy starts to laugh.)

RILEY: What?

BUFFY: Sorry. It’s just … you still carry around all that James Bond stuff. It’s so cute! I forgot. Sorry. (fake-military) Carry on.

RILEY: We’ve been tear-assing through every jungle from Paraguay up, taking out nests. As soon as we put one Suvolte down, a dozen take its place. They’re breeders, Buffy. One turns into ten, ten becomes a hundred. This gets out of hand and there’s a war with humans? Humans are gonna lose.

BUFFY: So they’re like really mean tribbles.

WHICH IS IT PETRIE?!?!?! He contradicted himself IN THE SAME PIECE OF DIALOGUE. He couldn’t even be bothered to change scene to make a plot hole big enough to hide the QE2.

And from here the episode goes into a decline that not even Mrs Cardboard can save. It is raise above worthless only by the closing scene as Buffy steps into the light.

Compared to this utter fucking drivel (which would have rocked in the hands of Espenson or Fury) As You Were makes Beer Bad look like the love child of Dennis Potter and Tom Stoppard.

The good news is that from here on in the show pretty much rocks. You will be heartbroken and  will be genuinely totally and completely shocked as a key character uses a familiar turn of phrase to horrifying effect.

Other notes

Dead Things had more than 6 mins cut for the BBC early evening transmission (something to do with the brutal beating and blow jobs, I suspect)

And it is now also evident that the trio are no joke. They may be idiots, but they are lethal idiots. Think “All fun and games until someone loses an eye” as imagined by HP Lovecraft.

(It is worth noting that it was around this point that the producers realised that the story logic was pointing in a particular direction and did a little judicious trimming of sails – remind me at the end)

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

Oh and you also have the most amusingly clumsy misdirection ever (but which, apparently, a lot of people fell for).

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@purofilion

BTW, did you recognise Halfrek? None other than Cecily, rejector of William. (I gather that is not officially canon)

OMG I’ve just realised what ep you have after the green dresses. Jealous.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @jimthefish @barnable

Now I know why I never really missed Riley. I have finished S6 in five hard and difficult days (dark days for Buffy). I have only a few things to say at this point as it needs to stew.

‘corruption optimi pessima’

(The corruption of the best is the worst)

Boy was that tough. The phrase you referring to, was, in S3: “I don’t want to hurt you, doesn’t mean I won’t.”

to this season’s: “I don’t want to hurt you, didn’t say I wouldn’t”

On the soul of Spike. I find with Buff (like Who) one thinks: I first assumed he was out to get the ability to kill Buffy which was immediately revised by ‘perhaps he’ll revert to pre-vampire form and be human,’ moving onto ‘the cave demon will decide to do something funky and turn him utterly mad’. So, getting a soul?

Not too bad at all, then.

The episode that- shall -not -be -named I’ve renamed The Doctor Minds his Demon Eggs.

I think it works.

Yes, ‘Normal Again’. Indeed.

Cicely? Really? It must be the hair! And of course, “have we met before?”

“Uhm, maybe?”

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@pedant — yeah, As You Were is bad. But I’d say it’s generic Petrie bad. But all in all, it’s no worse than any other handful of the Initiative episodes, which this is kind of a throwback to. Mrs Riley is kind of cardboard cutout — but is she really any more so than Forrest or replacement commander dude whose name I now can’t even remember?

As to the plot hole above, yeah, it’s bad but not as bad in my book as the Scoobies’ convoluted plans to convince the demon world that Buffy is still alive while at the same time erecting a highly noticeable tombstone to perform dark rites around. If we’re expected to overlook that in a significant arc-defining two-parter, then I think we can overlook a little not-thought-through expobabble.

And for all its faults the episode does have its plus points. As @purofilion says, it’s kind of nice to see Riley again and gives us a bit of closure to see that his life has improved again and he’s moved on from the dark place he was in when left. And this also provides a promise of light at the end of the tunnel for Buffy – ‘wheel keeps turning’. I think she (and the viewer) kind of need it at this point.

The thing that bugged me most about this episode is Spike as custodian of the eggs thing. I have no problem with Spike doing the wrong and evil thing but this just didn’t strike me as the sort of thing he would do. Mind you, he can’t attack people anymore so he’s probably going to have to get money from somewhere. It just struck me as a moment of sacrificing character on the altar of plot convenience to me.

So, no, I’d say Beer Bad still comfortably holds the mantle of Worst Episode Ever. Mind you, I have just been watching the Pylea episodes of Angel s2. Nothing’s going to seem quite so bad after that.

And yeah, after Hells Bells — necessary but bit patchy ep, I think — it’s a rocking run right to the end now. I predict some late-night watchage chez @purofilion.

[Anonymous @]

@jimthefish @pedant

As I said,  I think the episode works -The Doctor and His Demon Eggs. The issue was bringing back a spritely and happy Riley with a wife (I coulda done without the wife but understood she shouldn’t be some Buffy hating bitch). It was needed, I think, as a parallel to the darkness, in my opinion?

Problem was, I didn’t pay attention to the lines. In fact, the quips that always get my undivided attention involve the Scooby Doos. And they were flowing fast and free. I do dislike Petrie in interviews/ commentaries. I’ve only listened to a few and will STAY away from anything remotely about him/the show/the execs.

I felt in the end that Gone wasn’t a fav and neither was Smashed -except for the beginning. I’m not so thrilled about guys dancing in cages as a type of ‘punishment’ -it’s a trifling thing, but it niggled. Girls in cages. Briiing iiit on!

I kid.

Jim, I also think the Eev-il  Minding Egg Plan was devised to gain some dough. Spike is always haggling over something -kittens? So, eggs. A light tone was Clem -wonderful demon. “Hey, lets play parchisi and hire some DVDs. Then, let’s do a taste test on Doritos.”

Bummer, Spell check checked my Latin -devious Microsoft!

So at what point did I think Spike was leaving town to “spite Buffy and why?” I think chucking down the cigarette suggested to me that he wanted to ‘surprise that Bitch Buffy’ with the ability to feel something -hence, a soul. But I arrived there after a few other slip lanes. The bathroom scene/assault and attempted rape was just horrendous. Evil is as Evil does?

I have no S7 as yet -this is appropriate as I need a massive Angel watch- up. Interestingly the theme for Angel is supremely catchy whilst Buffy’s is quite …well….boring (IMO). I like the score in general as the fall into the Death Portal at the end of S5 hits a quite lovely high violin note.

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