19 comments

1. It is the season that got a bit lucky – Trick was intended to be the big bad, but they realised he was not working but that Groener was knocking it out of the park. And they must have known they were rolling the dice a bit in casting then 16yo Eliza Dushku.

   It has Willow in Leather. It has the opening Call of The Wild narration in Beauty and the Beast (and the coolest “Oh. Right. I’m a werewolf” scene imaginable) It has Slayerfest, it has “With my mother!” and it has the whole glorious Faith arc. And The Sundays rather sweet version of Wild Horses in The Prom. It has “Me? I like the quiet,” (even if The Zeppo did require a transient retcon of Xander’s character), it has “Do you want ot hug now?” and it has “Is Buffy Summers here?” It has SMG’s reaction when she realises Giles has basically betrayed her in Helpless.

   But the running sore in the season – the thing that always taints it for me, even though he was only in 9 episode – is Wesley (and not just because Denisof gets to shag Hannigan).  Whedon’s conception of the Watchers Council was a bit problematic and it is just as well that on the whole they were kept off to the side.  But Wesley was the Giles they might have got in a less skilled hand than ASH’s, and a testament to how misconceived the character was ***meta-spoiler warning*** is the lengths they went to in Angel to reset it (that sequence alone earned S1 of Angel an 18 cert in the UK).***end meta-spoiler warning*** Gwendolyne Post had the same issue on a smaller scale and rather shows the kind of people Joss hung out with when he was at school over here (that’s why I would be wary of Whedon doing a Who episode. Espenson, on the other hand….).

   It was magnificent, but it really was time to shake off the schools years and start to grow the hell up. In the Usenet days there were people seriously arguing that Whedon should have just had Giles take over as librarian of UC Sunnydale. Sheesh.

   Now we just have to prod @purofilion to get her antipodean rear in gear with season 4/ Angel S1.

2. @pedant — I wasn’t aware Mr Trick was meant to be the Big Bad. Not sure there’s any real indication of that in any episode really either. He comes across very much a second-tier henchman to me. I was aware that K Todd Freeman had originally auditioned for Spike though. I’m not sure the planning that goes into a 22-ep run would allow for such a dramatic volte-face and still remain such a strong run too. Though I could of course be wrong. But we’ve seen what a season that requires last-minute rewriting of Big Bad looks like in Angel S4 and it’s not exactly seamless.

   I also think you’re letting your crazed jealousy of Denisoff cloud your judgement RE. Wesley. Yes, he’s annoying but I think he does a great job as the more pompous, loser-ish version of Wesley. His primary purpose here is to be a key element in the coolification of Giles. And he has brilliant comic timing. (Which is why I found his performance as Benedick in Joss’s version of Much Ado About Nothing so disappointing.) But I’m not sure the performance was ever considered a misconception. It was just recognised that there really was very not much else you could do with such a characterisation and that Wesley had to grow in other directions if he was going to be a major show regular. Certainly in some of the commentaries, both Joss and Denisof speak fondly and regretfully of not being able to go back to the more comedic Wesley on more occasions. Which, I think, is why a certain episode of Angel s4 is such fun.

   Good point about who Buffy Wesley does point to how Giles might have ended up in less subtle hands though. And I do take your point about the general portrayal of the Watchers’ Council. But personally I kind of like it. I like the old Etonian/Oxbridge Don but steeped in the Occult angle and think it really works. It’s part Dennis Wheatley but Travers especially seems to be channelling Cyril Cusack in The Spy Who Came In From The Cold, which is a performance I’ve always loved. In fact, it’s when they deviate too much from that, that the Watchers start to seem rather lame. The Watcher Black Ops team of Buffy S4/Angel s1 just make me cringe. It would have been far cooler if they’d also been all tweedy and cut-glass but bad ass with it, rather than the dodgy geezer-ish turn we got.

   And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that the show should have stayed any longer at Sunnydale High. It was a necessary evolution (the average pupil of SHS was already looking to be well into their 20s as it was) and it was absolutely the right decision. But that doesn’t mean the show didn’t lose something when it did. Same as we all do when we leave school. It lost something of its lightness and charm but there was no way that it couldn’t have.

   And, no, Giles should definitely not have been made the librarian of the uni and it was a wise move that they resisted the temptation but that doesn’t mean they didn’t almost totally screw up his character beyond repair in S4. But more of that later.

   And The Prom is a fantastic episode. One of my all time favourites. That last dance over White Horses never fails to get me.

   (I’m sure @purofilion will join in when she can. Don’t want to overload the poor girl. Pesky RL always tends to get in the way.)

3. Ahhh times gone by

   @JimtheFish @pedant @purofilion

   I enjoyed Xander and Willow’s guilty attraction as an element of this season, after Willow’s crush on Xander since forever. There was something very real and flawed and absolutely about growing up involved in that story – missed opportunities, mixed messages, wrong times and places, a mess and no happy ending.

   Marti Noxon’s The Wish is hands down my fave episode of the season. Alternate realities rock anyway, but this one is so painfully twisted, with its slo-mo endings for a doomed scarred Buffy and a furious vamp Willow. Plus the script messes with the censors by sneaking some “puppy play” into the mix. Ah the skewed moral world of the US TV screen where sexualised torture is permitted where frank sexuality would not be.

4. @Pedant

   Trick was intended to be the big bad

   Huh?
   Apart from Season 1, Buffy Seasons followed a very similar pattern for their big bads. They’d introduce someone who was apparently going to be the season villain – and then you’d find out who the real villain was near the finale.

   So I’d agree with @JimTheFish – I don’t think Trick was ever intended to be anything other than the second level villain. The one major change I have heard about was Spike – they originally intended him to be dusted mid Season 2, but liked James Marsters’ performance too much to do it.

   Wesley wasn’t misconceived; he’s a perfect fit for a totally unsuitable Watcher. Which is what he’s supposed to be – Giles’ replacement can’t actually be competent, or Buffy would be happy to stay with the Watchers view of things. His function in Angel was utterly different, which is why he evolved away from ‘twit’ to ‘he grew up’.

5. The Trick stuff is pretty well sourced (from a Joss interview at a con iirc). At any one time there are 4 episode in production in these 22-26 ep seasons: 1 being ‘broken’ (ie the story worked out), 1 being written, 1 in principal photography (7 days for Buffy – most shows had 5) and 1 on post-production (three weeks). So an entire arc can be changed in 6 weeks or so if the producers (or network) decide something isn’t working out – plus the occasional Glen Quinn type situation. It isn’t unusually for arcs to vanish with no or minimal explanation (what was the deputy mayor about to say before Faith staked him?)

   And thanks to a (officially) misunderstanding or (unofficially) big time barney with Lindsey Crause that is what happened in a more controversial season.

   Re The Watchers – Harris Yulin was fine, but The Council had power and influence in direct proportion to plot demands. As I say, it reflects more on Joss’s time on Blighty that story sense.

   And there is nothing crazed about my jealousy of Denisof. It is entirely rational.

6. @pedant

   The Trick stuff is pretty well sourced (from a Joss interview at a con iirc).

   Oh, yeah, the fact that the character wasn’t working is well sourced. But his replacement was Faith-as-definitely-evil, not the Mayor. I didn’t think he was ever intended to be the Big Bad – just a Little Bad.

7. well, well, well, I’ve never read anything with so many connections to other films, portrayals in films, concepts of who the ‘big bad’ could or should have originally been. I’m still watching the thing!

   @pedant antipodean rear my ass. I’ve been swimming to reduce the rear, buddy! Which is why, annoyingly I’m onto Episode 5 of Angel and Episode 4 of Buffy S4. Mmm. So far, so good…. 🙂

   Yep. I’m no expert, but S3 was the best. Graduation Day Part 1 was terrific (you gotta admire my analysis). Part 2 seemed rushed -to be expected I suppose?

   I loved and despised Faith -the Boy had a serious crush: wild eyes; staring fitfully around the room was a good indication.

   Crazy Lollies as I call it was brilliant: “copper’s got a gun” was one of my favourite lines in ‘East London accent’ followed by Giles’ kick to the head. I’m fond of violence, clearly.  And there’s plenty of it in Buffy.  Hannigan shines as both the love of Oz (and Zander) and, as Bad Willow in Leather, she’s astounding. And Spike, those lines, “I may be love’s bitch, but I’m man enough to admit it….You can never be friends.”

   @JimTheFish “It lost some of its charm when it left school” (a paraphrase)

   I recall The West Wing when it became clear Josh needed to start work as the Campaigner for Jimmy Smits. It became leaner, tougher and less wistful. Well, no wist as all, really. Time for it to move on and yet it stayed connected to its core. I don’t know about s4 Buffy but I expect the same?

   Cripes, turn it on already (rubs hands gleefully). Wonderful to wake up and read such informed opinion.  You should see the local paper. These people get paid!

   Regards, puro

8. who is trick?

9. @purofilion — Mr Trick is the sharply dressed dude who helps Kokistos, the cloven-handed vampire who was gunning for Faith and later the Mayor.

   @bluesqueakpip and @pedant — I was aware that there was always some wiggle room in production blocks for a major arc volte-face but I don’t think you can ever do it seamlessly, even if you are Joss Whedon. And if anything, I’d say that s3 impresses as having the most swagger of any of the seasons of the show. It’s a very tight arc, that’s woven into far more stories than even s2’s was. If there were serious cracks in it, I’d think they’d show more.

   I can totally believe that they ‘promoted’ Faith when Trick didn’t take but I just don’t see Trick as ever being anything other than a glorified henchman. He’s just not written as anything else. He’s not foregrounded enough and he’s not given enough memorable lines.

   In many ways, S3 does mimic the same structure as S2. There we had Spike and Drusilla as the ostensible Big Bads until we’re thrown the Angelus curve-ball. In S3 we have Trick up to his various antics until the Mayor and Faith come to the fore and notch up that plot a bit more.

   Of course, it could be that they just got incredibly lucky.

   @juniperfish — The Wish is a great episode too. I love seeing the Master again and Mark Metcalfe is on as fine a form as ever. I love his ‘well I don’t say anything to them because I kill them’ line. And the slow-mo massacre at the end is just brilliant. But what interests me is the more subtle differences. Like the fact that Larry could have just as easily ended up being one of the Scoobies.

10. @pedant @Jimthefish

    I read that as “the sharply depressed dude” 🙂

    “trees pretty, fire bad”  Ah Hah! Found it. Unfortunately for that particular episode, Mr Ilion joined us. His take: “this? This is what you’re both goin’ on about??”

    Okay, different tastes n’ all, but was it that bad? I thought it was worth it to see Parker in Buffy’s various dreamscapes, Willow’s wonderful unpredictability in ‘listenin’ to Parker and the Buffster clockin’ Parker on the head.  I don’t think I’ve given too much away. However, the next episode, now that’s a story:

    “Since I’m neither a freshman nor a narcissist, I don’t care”

    But what happened to Oz (yep he’s been in LA but I thought it was temporary!).  Geez, I’m confused, in S3 one goes across the disc menu, in S4 one goes down. Confused and utterly, utterly irrelevant. Still, I’m peeved. And confused.

    Regards, puro

11. @JimTheFish

    my comments above should have been put in the other thread: I realise I’ve written about another season. Apologies. Willing to buy a round n’ all in the Cloven Hoof. Ah, Cloven Hoof -how Buffy. Of course, I’m very slow gettin’ there.

12. @purofilion

    Region 4 DVDs are usually the same as Region 2s, so welcome to the world of inconsistent and overblown menus! It doesn’t really get any better.

    I’m very confident in my info re Trick/Mayor/Faith, (it is not just conjecture) but there is a storyline further down the road where it is worth revisiting. Joss never throws anything away,

    The real achievement of this season, aside from the arc, is the introduction of episodes that played with and subverted the form. The confidence that gave going forward is very important.

13. @JimTheFish @pedant

    I was watching the less-spoilery contents of commentaries and the first one, predictably, was Joss. No, “Saint Joss” arguments here, please, but I will say I thought his commentary mimicked his faith and attitudes about writing -what this series meant to him. In fact, I listened to commentaries on S2-4. I shouldn’t make direct references to anything in S4 but I do like Joss’ initial statements about High School and Life: “the reality of High School is that nobody is what they are forever, they change, their alliances change and sometimes dissolve”. Now I know he may have planned to state that quite specifically, but if he didn’t, whilst it’s not prescient – it’s not some ‘wow’ deduction – it IS beautifully phrased. And it means something.

    In that commentary I learnt a lot about scenes and production: the ‘one-er’, the concept of framing a particular character at the back ( a grisly and annoyed Giles) whilst you’ve positioned a pensive Buffy up front.

    In watching more modern series -even Sherlock -I find some of these ‘simple’ tricks are missing. We have enormous production values and yet the meaning of a particular take is somehow reduced. How that happens, is beyond me but I suspect it has to do with what I can only call continuous layering: of ideas, content, frames, and dialogue which phrase may extend beyond the episode and even beyond a season, various cryptic clues placed accordingly with “nothing ever forgotten”.

    I think Joss says it himself: “Buffy drinks beer, it will go bad for her, Buffy has sex, it’ll go bad for her. The emotional resonance and the after effects matter. Always.” He, like David Fury, spoke heartily about the need for tension thru an entire season: a through-line, which “pays-off” and is later exhibited in an entirely different episode and season.

    Actually, David Fury’s comments were very interesting -and I’m about 95% sure it was Fury who spoke cleanly about the stand-a-alone lark and the sock ’em and rock ’em aspects of keeping things interesting. There was a discussion about the Western trope and the way this is filmed: the epic, the people far-apart, the show- down and shoot out, the hero and anti-hero. Some of this came from a S2 commentary: When Angel Goes Bad, I think. He described the sub-text, and interestingly to me, the nature of the turn-around -usually 14 days which became 10 or even 7 and now, is about 5 days, apparently!

    Most interesting was the way different people commented. Petrie was the most ‘confident’ and I think, self serving. His push for people to “love” the absolute thrill of “our Jimmy Stewart” in ***spoiler alert***Riley’s character and the Star Trek set, all: “white and sterile” didn’t really go deeper into a discussion *** end spoiler***as to why such a change or introduction was necessary. He was all “I love this. This is great.” But, if you’re not sure and you don’t really like it then someone needs to justify this plot turn. I didn’t feel Petrie did that. From what I’ve heard and read about thus far, there are arrogance issues a-plenty with Doug. But that’s my (simple) take and I need to finish S4 before making a decision. As usual, there are fantastic stand-a-lone eps….And the arc? Fabulous.

    Regards, puro.

14. @purofilion

    There’s scene in an episode of S5 that I’ll come back to when we get there which brings a lot of this into focus. ‘Cos your comments about layers and stuff go directly to the question of aspect ratios – and I’ll bet you thought that was a throwaway bit of geekery, didn’t you?

15. @purofilion — yes, I think of all the regular commentators, Petrie is the least interesting and I’m afraid to say that kinda goes for his stories too a lot of the time. RE. layers, I think in Buffy we see something that we just don’t see in modern Who — that the showrunner takes an interest and is often responsible for the direction and mise en scene of the episodes too. Who gets some fantastic directors but they’re still interpreting someone else’s script. There seems to be a demarcation of responsibility and I’ve never seen much indication on just how much input the showrunners put in actually on set, and to what degree directors are given autonomy over filming. What would, I wonder, a Moffatt-directed episode of Who look like?

    I can honestly say I don’t think you’ll find commentaries as informative and educational anywhere as the ones on Whedon shows.

16. @JimTheFish @pedant

    In less words than I,  you made the points I was attempting to.

    Yes, I am trying hard to be a geek 🙂 I read a great book detailing aspect ratios and set direction many years ago but it’s fairly dated.

    The commentaries are fantastic eyes into the way the writer wishes a scene should be. He or she seems (in Buffy) to be creatively involved in the filming -at least those particular writers claimed to be on set at least 75% of the time -usually a set but not always a location ‘shoot’ (all the things I’m learnin’!). They were humble and honest (except for ol’ Doug)  about how Joss re-wrote what became “some of the best lines.” I liked that. I also enjoyed the explanation that lines could be tweaked on set. Also that some actors (SMG especially) knew instinctively when to ‘move into their light’/position which ‘saved time’ for the main Director or Director of Photography.

    I understand that when commentaries exist for a Who DVD episode it was usually David Tennant and RTD faffing on about all sorts of ‘hilarious events’ -all of which were funny but not particularly ‘theoretical’? It didn’t bother me as I didn’t know any better (and hardly do still) but I certainly appreciate the insight into the analysis of production in the Buffy commentaries.

    A Moffat directed episode. Wow or chaos? Or wow and chaos?

     

17. @purofilion @JimTheFish

    Bear in mind that a series of Who is written, shot and edited as one block and broadcast later. For these 22-26 episode US series they are written and shot “4 in hand”, which is why so many shows get cancelled after 4 episodes. The writer’s room is active almost through the broadcast period. But, yes – Whedon was very hands on. Also, there is quite a cadre of American TV directors who are very good at getting complex ideas on screen within budget (David Solomon and David A Contner were JW’s ‘Go To’ men – 40 eps between them)

    Having said that, it was very noticeable that a few season 8 eps has By writerX and Steven Moffat. I wonder of Moff is trying to nudge it towards an American model. I think deep down, Moff is every bit the auteur that Whedon is, but does not have the creative freedom.

    (There is one commentary further down the road worse that Petrie’s – and on quite a key episode, too).

18. @purofilion and @ pedant — let’s not forget that we’re not just talking about a Whedon-centric phenomena here but one you’ll see in a lot of US shows, with the likes of Alan Ball, Aaron Sorkin, Josh Friedmann, JJ Abrams etc. all having quite hands-on and direct creative roles in most aspects of the production process.

    as @pedant says, it’ll be interesting if SM is trying to push for a more US-style because it does appear to be much more strongly demarcated at the moment. Of course, there’s not actually such a thing as a Who writers’ room as you’d see it on US shows. There’s the production office with presumably SM commissioning the stories he wants, with said writers being left to deliver presumably lots of notes, probably done by email, rather than everyone being in a physical office. And that presumably means that they’re not on-set that much, aside from on special occasions. I believe it’s unusual these days for writers to even be invited to readthroughs these days.  The co-writing of s8 is interesting and I’d definitely like to see some insight into how it all works at some point.  Again presumably lots of notes, phone calls and emails. Hopefully we’ll see SM’s equivalent of The Writer’s Tale when he hands over the reins.

19. @pedant you may not read this but in my re-reading of this whole blog and comment section I now u’stand your phrase:

    “Cos your comments about layers and stuff go directly to the question of aspect ratios – and I’ll bet you thought that was a throwaway bit of geekery, didn’t you?”

    face palm