On the Sofa 11

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

What were 3-4 issues you had with this iteration or series.

I would say (in no particular order):

1. Too crowded a Tardis. Consequently not enough story for all the leads.

2. The first female Doctor. There was not enough written about the gender change. What a wasted opportunity. Instead, he decided to turn the Doctor – traditionally a maverick but ordinary Time Lord, into a demi-god.

3. Overly preachy writing when making political points.

4. Lack of respect for the show and its former writers, showrunners, actors and prod staff manifesting in wholesale changes to the canon (not a word I really like using but it’s a good fit here) that undermined many years work by many of the above people, many of which were more talented than he was. Ego trip.

It wasn’t all bad. But, as I’ve said before, and to borrow a phrase ‘the good ideas weren’t original, and the original ideas weren’t good’.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar    I’d agree wholeheartedly with all that.

Also, I’d add, the writing lacked a certain polish or sparkle that Moff used to inject into it.   And, I think, a certain sense of humour.   I’m thinking of, say, the interaction between Clara and the Doctor in Flatline, or the Doctors in Day of the Doctor.   Can anyone point to a Chibz episode that managed that light touch?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Again… not really about a specific ep so I moved it here.

Sorry, my mulling over RTD turned out to be a bad post, late night etc. And then I changed it half through. The contraction of titles in two parters was started by Den of Geek, I think.

So, what the hell has just happened?

I’m not sure how RTD got the gig the first time, but he must have stored up some goodwill for round 2. ‘Yeah I can do that guvnor! Gaffer tape, blutack, safety pins, fourbetwobefourbe…’ BUT:

Ratings… the Streamers (in meta speak, The Flux?) have done their damage.

Disney was a BAD fit.

The speculated Cartmel 2.0 Plan (I can explain in detail IF you want) is quite possibly still an issue for some people at The Corp… but, having had a long look their own (and Chib’s) handywork, maybe not all.

A virtual reality framing story based on Classic/Nu looks lazy at best. As it turns out, it was nearly as incomprehensible as The Flux. But remember, VR wasn’t a good look in Deadly Assassin or Ultimate Foe either.

RTD reverted to his trusted method: seed spin-offs. But the key was the new Unit. And erm… it REALLY didn’t work. My language there could be far more colourful.

The Culture Warriors now have RTD in their sights. These guys are everywhere, barking like dogs, but they used WHO in particular to normalise some REALLY nasty politics.

RTD didn’t get much time to plan this time; the 2005 relaunch had a looong 16 year run up.

So, the outcome is no surprise. I still think The BBC have been firstly, clueless, and thereafter, spineless. BUT there may now be NO MORE money. Or not for anything so… risky.

What did I expect from RTD’s ‘monster arc’? Here we go. The deadlidullness of the Chib era would be retconned into part of a slowly developing virtual reality created by The Great Intelligence in the guise of The Valeyard. How the Doctor relates to Susan, Jenny (?) Ashildr (??) or The Master, I don’t know. It’s in The Plan. The Rani may even be a bigenerated River in the guise of Mrs Flood, and manifested in the Virtual Reality as Rogue.

And I’m afraid most fans are uninterested in this level of plotting. They want stinks and bangs.

In any case, it’s almost certainly NOT now going to happen.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u    I agree that Disney, with their tendency to milk old classics for all they’re worth, and cartoonise everything, was not a good fit.   And since their name was on it, I assume they vetoed anything too adult.   Their only plus is, they tend to be woke, and much as I deride that term and tendency, I guess it’s better than being bigoted.    (I would not normally rate ‘woke’ as a plus, but I guess recent real-world events have shown us what the opposite can be).

And I’m no too happy with the modern UNIT.   In old Who, it was basically the United Nations peacekeepers, which a lefty-liberal like me could get behind.   Now, it’s become a military organisation in its own right, and a very well-funded powerful one if that tower is anything to go by.   And a bit too weapon-gadget-techspeak for my liking  (“Clear the neutron blasters for firing.   Calibrate the Infinity Device.   Prime the disruptor cannons.   Engage the Displacement Field”)   (At least some of that I made up.)      And most of those were never explained.    If I can contrast with Moff, when he introduced a weapon or a gadget, even if it was a pun  (hand mines), it actually did something of consequence to the story.   Thinking of Boom  (Smartmines and ambulances).

RTD could certainly think of original concepts that worked  (Dot and Bubble, and the Slugs, and Wild Blue Yonder).   I think maybe he got overworked / out of time, and UNIT was a convenient fall-back – invoke UNIT, write a bit of action (shooting is easy and dramatic), problem solved.

So what you are proposing is a Big Red Reset Button?   (aka, it-was-all-a-dream).   Actually, that’s about the only thing that could logically work.   One of the problems with stories set here and now is, that you’re stuck with the consequences in later episodes (or you have to explain why nobody noticed them).   A great advantage of other planets or the distant future is, you never have that problem, as long as you keep your scope planetary.    I think episodes of limited regional scope work better anyway.   Once you start messing with Universe-threatening events or the Doctor’s past history, you’ve thrown away that advantage.

Moff, with his War Doctor, was careful to make him fit in.   Chibz came along and couldn’t be bothered with rubbish like continuity.   So the only real fix is the nuclear option aka the Big Red Reset Button.   Virtual Reality (or dreams) dissolves the continuity problem, since dreams can do anything (and usually do).

So maybe your expectation would have worked, better than plastering over the cracks in reality that Chib caused, anyway.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@winston halloo!! @ps1l0v3y0u @whohar @dentarthurdent

yes, Moffat loved the humour & it’s what made it entertaining to me- thus rewatchable. I rewatched Listen and the Under the Lake 2-parter with 12’s “cards” that Clara organised.

RTD did humour too. Once. And even though message-heavy Dr Who existed in the 60s it was clever, sardonic, mature, even if somewhat unsubtle. Perhaps it was more sophisticated than Chib’s messaging.  I also found Unit’s U.S. -military junta behaviour tedious.

As for a reset button, everything pointed towards them being in some story-book mavity universe lorded over by unreal gods. Shame there was no development there ?

and yes, preachy writing was an issue. It makes me wonder, based on how RTD could get with live audience questions (incredibly rude) that perhaps he dislikes viewers more than before? It’s a f__ you response from him….

Puro.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

To me woke equals good manners and inclusivity. Thus it’s a good thing…. But it needs to be managed -I recall Pertwee being almost-“woke” sometimes & it worked. His expressions and his silence -the latter careful & convincing.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@syzygy  @thane16   Oh yes those ‘cue cards’.   “Sorry for the loss of your friend/relative/pet.”   How Capaldi delivered those lines without cracking up I don’t know.  (Reminds me of those ‘personalised’ offers we used to get a few decades ago from Readers Digest and the like –  “Dear [Dentarthurdent], we are certain that you and your family at [Post Box 2573] will be the envy of all your neighbors in [West Auckland Mail Centre]…”)

Mavity was a definite clue to an alternate reality.   That device can be extremely effective.   But it’s very tricky to do consistently for very long without getting tedious or too obvious.    The cups falling through the table in the penultimate episode were good, the bone monsters were taking it a step too far I think.   But I guess that was the reveal.

The other thing to beware of, the Reset Button tends to render all previous developments in the arc meaningless.   Runs the risk of frustrating, annoying or even angering the audience, who have invested emotional capital in those episodes.   The longer the arc, the higher the stakes.   And there’s the risk of it being seen, rightly or wrongly, as writer’s laziness.

‘Woke’ annoys me.   I dislike it as a word (does violence to English, like ‘gay’ which used to mean ‘cheerful, colourful and happy’ with no implications for sexual orientation and now I can’t use it without that implication). I also hate that it’s become so convenient to use it   🙂

It is also used as a derogatory term by those of a right-leaning persuasion.   I’m generally left-leaning, so most of my positions could be termed ‘woke’.   But I tend to apply ‘woke’ only to those excesses of behaviour or language carried to extreme.  Replacing ‘chairman’ with ‘chairperson’ is about my limit  (Chair makes no sense, they’re a piece of furniture, what’s wrong with ‘chairwoman’?).    I absolutely favour no gender/colour discrimination in pay, jobs etc where it isn’t a relevant factor (i.e. most of them).   Trying to pretend there is no physical difference between men and women, or claiming ‘his’/’her’ is sexist language, is going way too far for me.

Still, I’d rather be called ‘woke’ than a ‘patriot’   🙂

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @dentarthurdent @janetteb @whohar @winston

Was RTD rubbing the viewers’ nose in it? Being ‘arsy’? Not arf!

I’m not sure ‘woke’ would be anymore than a novel and obscure adjective if not for The Culture Warriors. Why persecute religious or racial targets when you can choose to denounce absolutely anyone who disagrees with you?

Of course RTD would think a meta narrative of the Virtual Nightmare a brilliant idea. And for him it’s as an existential threat as it is for Piers Morgan, fulminating on breakfast tv, just to remind everyone he is still there.

If Chib was indeed performing similar, if rather more prosaic genuflexions to ethical topicality, RTD may have thought he had the Corporation’s encouragement. Doesn’t matter; the BBC is another target. Why pay for a tv licence when you can watch streamers on your mobile? The viewers have nothing to lose but their intellect.

Sci Fi is the realm of ideas. Yet you can’t MAKE the viewer think, even if the success of Severance suggests it is still possible. ‘Oh. You’re talking down to me. Can’t you make it more like a soap?’

Actually ‘The Disney’ series were nearly as confusing as, if mostly superior to, The Flux, but Moffat was also criticised for obscurity. And the Red Reset Button also was principally his (and Paul Cornell’s). Aside from the odd jammy dodger, it was certainly prominent at the end of series 5, possibly also several critical moments of 6; and of course Journey to the Centre of The Tardis.

Thereafter Moff seemed anxious for plot resolutions to come with a cost. Not sure the phrase ‘red button’ was ever a particularly stinging criticism, more a warning against overuse. But what is the phrase ‘madman in a box’ if not a kenning for Dei Ex Machina? There’s Temporal.

Resolution by VR would be more like Bobby Ewing emerging from the shower.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16 @dentarthurdent @janetteb @winston

@ps1l0v3y0u

It’s an interesting discussion.

On the etymology of woke: IIRC it came out of the Civil rights movement in the US (pre-Covid) with the phrase “Stay woke” meaning stay awake i.e. be alert to what’s going on around you. It was taken on by liberals and it started to appear in the left-leaning mainstream press but was then quickly corrupted /co-opted by the right, and became an insult: “Utter woke nonsense”. Partly, it has to be said, due to the tendency of many commentators to view everything through the lens of identity politics, which is itself very reductive and unhelpful in most cases.

And arriving into this climate was the first female Doc and then the first black Doc. With predictable and depressing results.

But back to the show:

I absolutely do not think they should (or will) Bobby Ewing the show. A soft reboot would be my preference. This would allow a new focus on the character and unburden a lot of the baggage the show carries. It definitely needs a completely new team though, no more RTD, Moff, Chibs, or any previous writers on the show. A fresh start.

[syzygy @thane16]

To all….. this is a fascinating discussion. And yes, the nature of ethical topicality was observed & lauded by RTD & Chibbers post-2015 (I love your descriptions @ps1l0v3y0u ) & whilst they tied up my favourite season (s 5) a little too speedily, @PS & @dentarthurdent I didn’t see it as a reset myself? But most definitely is Mavity a clue to another side-by-side universe.

I recall the lecture CapDoc demonstrated in Bill Pott’s first or 2nd episode? Where the former speaks about how the universe creates time from a trillion tiny decisions. My brain has almost lost the memories of that episode & as no streamers in Aus have ‘new’ Dr Who at the moment, I can only rely on memory or pull apart boxes to retrieve all my Who box sets!

@whohar yes, the more we focus on identity politics, the less focus exists on working class & middle class oppression thru an overall mismanagement of economic opportunity & the foundational roots of exploitation & marginalisation.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar yes, the Christian Right who are very often neither 😉

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16

yes, the more we focus on identity politics, the less focus exists on working class & middle class oppression thru an overall mismanagement of economic opportunity & the foundational roots of exploitation & marginalisation

Agreed. Class is the one thing that’s never mentioned, and some studies have shown it is this one single factor that has more bearing on a person’s outcomes that anything else.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar  quite. I was reading, a couple of years back, how the Knowledge illusion convinces us that the collective knowledge of our community exists equally within each of us when this is a furphy.

By using only our individual stories (of class, family,) we put ourselves against others with different perspectives or stories (even those with similar classist backgrounds) making assumptions that rarely lead to active solutions.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar @ps1l0v3y0u @dentarthurdent @janetteb  Another thought that our son had in reference to RTD2 comeback were these specific issues of identity.

As the Doctor was male, he couldn’t let go of the Dr/Donna crisis, but Donna could pass the meta crisis energy to her non-binary daughter so this burden was split & Donna avoided inevitable lethality.

I felt that landed awkwardly & no, I’m not at all against non-binary presentations & I’m opposed to assumptions regarding pronouns & privacy, but I wondered how Donna survived.

Is it that her daughter solved the crisis because of her non-binary presenting identity?  As if her only contribution could be this unusual biological imperative or sexuality.

Further, as Rose then does very little in the next season, her involvement in the meta-crisis drops into obscurity & makes a mockery of her initial contribution (despite it being a true game changer) & if so, why use it at all?

@whohar in your list of issues with chib’s run, Point 3 fits in with this (tho it’s RTDs here)? Also in my post above, the thoughts came from the book The Knowledge Illusion by Sloman & Fernbach who touch on the unity of collective wisdom .

@dentarthurdent the point of the cups falling in RTD2’s Reality ep is a great idea with juicy potential.

Puro

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @dentarthurdent @whohar @janetteb

On the face of it, the ‘let it go’ moment is definitely a bit clumsy. Or you could read it as a generic ‘hey, these are just people’ statement.’ Or it’s RTD getting his revenge in first. I wasn’t studying the forums or meta at that stage, but I imagine Russ knew what was coming.

Otherwise you wonder if RTD had his attention drawn to the Cholmondley Warner ‘Women! Know Your Limits!’ (Do NOT Attempt to Discuss The Gold Standard) sketch. In that respect, it should have been hilarious. He’s just got to rescue Martha from Mickey now.

But also, we must suspect what with Sylvia jumping around screaming ‘none of this is real!’ that we’re already in a VR. The UNIT of ‘War’ is significantly different to the V’linx UNIT; surely it’s supposed to be woozy and nightmarish? Otherwise it may simply be a case of bad art.

Now… Chib also launched many ‘story’ characters and generally failed to back them up. And why ARE most historicals SO disappointing? Is this the Corporation limiting the ‘political damage?’ Did Disney adopt the same stipulation? You can cut the right shapes but keep it woolly.

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u oh boy! I had to Google the C Warrior sketch….. indeed, a woman’s brain….!

And fair enough one could say it’s “people, dude, relax, it’ll work.” And that’s great but if that’s how Rose’s journey progressed following this episode, it’s a problem- a small one perhaps, but the development was thin as a nail.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@thane16 @ps1l0v3y0u

As the Doctor was male, he couldn’t let go of the Dr/Donna crisis

Which is weird if you think about it. Imagine it had been written the other way around.

Also the Doc had just been female and this “ability” to shrug this off had never been explored.

The messaging is fine, but the delivery was woeful. There seemed to be a lot of, maybe not quite aggressive but let’s say forceful, pronouncements from RTD  about the show at that time.  I found it all a bit tedious tbh, my view being “say it on screen”.

If you want to go down that route then fine but don’t expect “The Internet (TM)” to blankly accept it. And be sure the product you are putting out is top notch, otherwise you’ll attract so much additional criticism it will do serious damage to the show.

I think he needed someone in Bad Wolf or the BBC to say “hey Russell, that’s probably not the best idea”.

 

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @whohar @dentarthurdent @janetteb

RTD1: weird narcissistic racism, venal politicians, polyamory, shaggy dog stories about royal malaises, tech monocultures, nerds and their love interests,  racism in the past, environmental collapse, imperial heritage, more venal politicians, assisted weight loss, slavery, xenosexuality, super-wealthy crazed tech ijits… it’s quite a provocative list.

And the  audience lapped it all up… apart from the nerd and love interest.

Moff had far less obvious ‘issue plotting’… what was there? Old people are weird! And that was in a dream. The Doctor is creepy sometimes. What are soldiers FOR? What do you believe happens after death? Would you call the GI machine learning? Are the Zygons foreign? Because they seem to be people.

Moff was more about the companions’ stories, especially Amy. Though I have also described Amy, River and Clara as ‘bloke adjuncts’… as if every ‘bloke’ has a guardian angel…

And Bill was presented as an antidote to that. And Moff was duly criticised and/or admired. But he really did nothing about race in series 10. Georgian bloke is grumpy. And not much really about sexuality either. Clueless lad is disappointed in Knock Knock. Moira is relieved that Penny is NOT a man. And Roman Legionaries turn out be improbably tolerant and restrained. Still, kids’ show. However, try posting this opinion on Meta today.

Do we think Chib virtue-signalled? Yes, I do. Only the writing was so poor it’s quite hard to tell.

RTD2 seems to have been pushed for time, stuck with a novel funding model, but nonetheless up for a fight. Then he introduces Donna’s trans child and immediately abandons the idea. Space Babies and Devils’ Chord were undeveloped, but at least there was some intent. Rogue, yes. Crying, yes. Toxic male internet idiocy, someone’s not going to like that. But the message is in the arc, baffling series ends, woozy unease, ridiculous classic villains, the lot.

So there’s pattern here. Do what you have to showrunner, but DON’T spell it out. RTD1 did that once, but we think he got away with it.

This seems to have been the case since before The End of Time. So was it really Disney, and Disney only, who set the tone?

[syzygy @thane16]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@ps1l0v3y0u. @whohar @dentarthurdent @janetteb @winston @nerys</p>
Yes, @whohar there were aggressive pronouncements by RTD 2- the most concerning was Dacron’ ableist issue; the sonic better as a telly remote than a gun & TenDoc regenerating back into his 2006+ clothing as keeping 13’s outfit would be an insult to drag performers….

This was all very odd to me but as has been said above, a number of his eps were terrific from 73 Yards, Boom to Rogue ….And yes “hey Russell, that’s probably not the best idea” might’ve helped. But apparently Eccleston did this & was.. er…degenerated for his trouble 😉

@ps1l0v3y0u indeed, many of RTD 1 episodes were message-laden which certainly parallels early Who. And “You can cut the right shapes but keep it woolly.” Ooh. I love that!

I never quite got how Martha & Mickey ended up together either? I feel RTD has to pair off people: so even unlikely pairings seem sensible 🤣 Perhaps this was just gimmicky for the Tennant’s Doctor “thank you & goodnight farewell last ride tour.”

Puro.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

Oops -Davros not Dacron!

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Gosh, look away for a couple of days and the comments fill up.
@thane16 Syzygy (I thought I posted this) That lecture was in Bill Potts first episode, The Pilot. Transcript at chakoteya.net.
I thought the idea that Rose(2) could solve the metacrisis by being non-binary – it didn’t really make sense to me, and it felt distinctly forced – RTD pushing an agenda. I share your feelings about it.
I liked Rose(2) and was disappointed that, after (I believe) a certain amount of publicity surrounding her casting, she actually appeared very little.

@ps1l0v3y0u I liked Martha, and I applauded her decision to gracefully dump the Doctor. Best thing she could have done in the circumstances. I thought lumping her with Mickey (Rose’s cast-off) was poor – not well thought-out. It just felt like RTD was trying to tie up a loose end. (As syzygy said).
Nor was I happy with her recruitment as a UNIT operative (but that applies to most ex-Companions who get recruited by UNIT. I think it goes something like this: We’d like to use this ex-companion somehow. But how? – we don’t have time to construct a complete storyline for her. Oh, I’ve got it – we’ll put her in UNIT. Problem solved!

As you pointed out, Moff had far less of a political/social message, or maybe it was just more subtly conveyed, so we didn’t feel like we were being preached to. (I’m generally sympathetic to most ‘woke’ ideas, but any hint of ‘preaching’ turns me off *even if I agree with the message*.)

 

[syzygy @thane16]

Ah yes, thank you -Bill Potts’ first episode. Got it.

I think Moff handles messaging better than most & with his determination to entertain above all else it generally doesn’t clunk along tediously. And one newer episode I liked very much was Wild Blue Yonder.

From pacing, to humour, to chilling terror, it worked very well… though I believed they’d entered the land of Mavity Schmavity in an entirely separate universe which, unless I’m forgetting something, would then establish this bizarre new world for Gatwa. Perhaps that happened -I just never noticed 😉

Yes, placing companions into Unit works if it’s perhaps one companion because upon the Dr’s arrival, it’s all hugs & shaky hands ….& then they blend into the background….

It’s lovely in theory but it didn’t work very well beyond the composite, unless they appeared outside of Unit with a determined aspect such as in School Reunion (a superb episode).

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16    Wild Blue Yonder was great, and a perfect example of how to properly use CGI.   And having just two cast intensifies the drama.   The alien ship looked truly beautiful.   Probably my favourite RTD(2) episode.    And, the reintroduction of Donna was successful.

School Reunion was good because it introduced the Old Companion well, it gave her proper attention and interaction with the current cast.   Always intriguing when a bit of competition is introduced between the current Companion and predecessors.

Another way to do it is to have a new character that just ‘looks like’ an old Companion – like Day of the Doctor, the Interface (Rose) was excellent and with a good rationale – The Moment had picked her out of the Doctor’s future memory (future – past – all the same to The Moment) and made all the more piquant because Rose’s Doctor, Ten, couldn’t see her.   And since it was just her appearance that was used it quite avoids the need for a rationale of how the old Companion get there.

And it always adds an extra level of interest when you have one character observing but invisible to the others, so long as the writer can handle it properly, and Moff was expert at that sort of thing.

[syzygy @thane16]

I LOVED The Moment. Piper’s fabulous strut and her mimicking of Hurt’s words was an “oh she’s going there!” moment. I had second hand embarrassment for the Doctor except the Moment was worldly, kind & understanding. And of course she would be.

I sometimes forget just how brilliant Rose/Piper was. Every bit as good as Eccleston & Tennant. Better perhaps than Donna (I find she rubs me up the wrong way, sometimes -it’s the shouty!)  🙂

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16    The Moment was a weapon so powerful it had achieved intelligence.   And maybe even a conscience.   (Current AI has quite a long way to go).    And Billie Piper was one of those people the camera loves.  Even leaning against the wall of the cell in the Tower of London behind three Doctors, she was stealing the scene without moving a muscle.

Excellent choice for the reboot of the series.   I tend to find the Companion at least as interesting as the Doctor of the day, sometimes more so.   Donna, I agree – too shouty.   Her first appearance when she harangued a grieving Doctor who had just lost Rose, prejudiced me for a long time against her.   First impressions and all that.  It took me several series before I mellowed, by Wild Blue Yonder I was okay with her, which is just as well because it would have spoiled an excellent episode for me otherwise.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent @janetteb @winston @nerys @thane16

the most concerning was Dacron’ ableist issue; the sonic better as a telly remote than a gun & TenDoc regenerating back into his 2006+ clothing as keeping 13’s outfit would be an insult to drag performers

Agreed. Also the hypocrisy. The sonic is too gun-like but then the Doc shoots Omega in the face with a weapon.

a number of his eps were terrific from 73 Yards, Boom to Rogue

Of which, interestingly, only 73 yards was written by RTD2. Probably my favourite after WBY though.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @dentarthurdent @thane16 @janetteb @winston

Davros and ablism. It’s not a simple ‘No! Not on my watch’ surely? Yes, the world has moved on, and we got Shirley and (see below) Jinkx Monsoon on the show, but there are ways of playing it, ain’t there? 12 turfed Davros out of his unit and rode it like a bumper car. I’ve said it before but The Space Babies looked like half-baked machine learned VR daleks to me.

I didn’t like 14’s regen costume change. And not sure I get it. On many levels. 13 wore trousers. The Master got 13’s trousers. Why didn’t 13 stay in The Master’s carefully selected Master Trousers? Then there’s no problem. Surely Chib and RTD had a tiff in the hand-over? 15 bigenerated without trousers.

Hmmm. Am I going gammon?

Omega gets shot? That’s not Omega. It’s not a weapon. Anyway, The Doctor blew up Skaro’s sun. The Doctor is being subverted… see the Song Contest ep.

RTD wrote the excellent Dot and Bubble too. I STILL don’t understand 73 Yards. Looks like a million dollars tho.

Can I repeat my ‘Pantheon is The Fendahleen in a VR’ theory? They came to earth via Mars. There’s 12 of them. The Time Lords destroyed planets 5. So, Sutekh ain’t an Osirian but a VR Fendahleen. No wonder he looked so dopey.

Anyway, all irrelevant now. Maybe.

[syzygy @thane16]

@ps1l0v3y0u

73 Yards is about time and patience. Ruby is ‘sent away’ in time by the magic fairy circle (see Wild B Yonder & the salt line) to ensure Mad Jack doesn’t trigger a nuclear apocalypse. Ultimately, when Ruby’s job is done, the elder Ruby (originally the mysterious woman) tells the now not so young Ruby, to avoid the fairy circle thus changing the timeline.

I agree with everyone about the “trouser” issue, the wheelchair decision (though space babies had….. 🤣) etc.
@whohar yes! The sonic is not a gun but then “the Doc shoots Omega in the face with a weapon” I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I was thinking of earlier Who (Doc 11) with Bill Paterson as Bracewell and then I started a re-watch of Foyle’s War. David Tennant, Christina Cole, Capaldi and Ron Cook. A terrific piece with near perfect messaging.

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar @ps1l0v3y0u @winston @dentarthurdent @nerys and all

I think a comic-con panel had Billie Piper. A fan asked the question …..the only question that can ever be asked! “Are you the doctor?” And Piper said “I’m not the Doctor I’m Rose Tyler on hiatus.”

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16 @dentarthurdent @whohar @winston @nerys

The Doctor Lies

The Soufflé is not the Soufflé, the Soufflé is the Recipe

Planet of Hats here I come

Just Some Bloke??!

Mark Gatiss made a rather downbeat interview recently, rather different to the ‘all is not over shtick’ issuing from the usual armchairs. He points out the BBC’s stance now is straight from Grade fils playbook from 30 odd years ago.

Will try to locate the link.

Would really like to join in on the analysis of the last series but to tell the truth, though the tone was more even, I didn’t appreciate it as much as the central two quarters of the previous series. And Omega was ridiculous and gratuitous.

Then I watched The Pilot again and realised what I was missing.

[nerys @nerys]

How have I missed this thread and its brilliant observations? Bravo to all for an engaging month-long (and hopefully longer) discussion!

The “resolution” for Donna through her daughter was, as others have noted, clunky. Yet I must admit that I was one of those who was furious with RTD for abandoning Donna without any memory of her adventures with the Doctor, and all that she had achieved with him. So I accepted “clunky” in order to rectify that error. But yes, it could have been done better. My little mind is not sure how Donna’s non-binary daughter, Rose, solved the Meta-Crisis problem. But then, my husband is far more sciency than I, and his observation of post-gap Doctor Who is that problems were often solved in a way that belied scientific explanation.

I try to be open-minded, but in some cases “woke” has become its own form of suppression/repression. It’s worth reading Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America by John McWhorter for some insight into why I believe this to be true. Not universally true, but it’s happening nonetheless.

I agree that Chibnall was virtue signalling in an inexplicably awkward way. I have found this with certain authors. The thing is, I may well agree with their editorial commentary. But if I want to be bashed over the head with an opinion, I’ll read an editorial. I don’t need you to be editorializing through fictional characters. Give me a story, told well. That story may have an editorial slant … but if it doesn’t engage me, then all is lost.

@thane16 Yes, Donna could be “shouty” … but the Donna I loved was the one who, in a crisis, dissolved into tears and reminded the Doctor of what he was blind to, and what was right. I always believed Donna’s brash exterior was just a cover for her inner humanitarian.

So many great posts, but this one jumped out at me:

@winston Good night from the smoky hell that is Ontario. I have to go turn on the fans we use to send our smoke to the White House.

Thanks for the giggle. Given recent events, I needed that.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys   As I’ve said, shouty Donna is her least attractive part, and that’s exactly what we got on her first appearance.   First impression and all that, it took me a while (about two seasons) to get over my Donnaphobia.   I thought the metacrisis ‘solution’ was clunky but by then I was sufficiently reconciled to  Donna that I let it go.

I find I’m much more tolerant to minor glitches if I like the character or the episode.   If I’m unhappy with the episode then every little slip gets noticed.   This isn’t entirely logical but I’m human.   Reputedly.

And yes, Chibs did tend to be a bit clumsy and heavy-handed with his messages.  As a young teen I used to thoroughly loathe the Lone Ranger because at the end of each episode he used to point out the moral of the story.   Even then I felt life was more complicated and often good and bad were ambiguous.   I also liked (some) British humour where the main character is a loser, over the American ones where the main character is the smartest one in the room.   (Did like ‘Married with Children’ though, which I suppose is consistent).

I still react badly to people preaching at me, even if I agree with the message.    Probably as a corollary, I used to be crap at explaining things at work (these days we’d say ‘giving presentations’) because whenever I stated a ‘fact’ the back of my mind would ask ‘are you sure?   Why would they believe that?’

Um, authors.   I like those who are reasonably concise and have a way with words.   My ideal paperback is 200-300 pages, these 500-page blockbusters put me off, as do banal stock phrases.

And I think Moff has the best ‘way with words’ of any Who writer.   Also his dictum that you have to give viewers something to keep them watching every five minutes.   Which he certainly did.

Oddly enough then, my favourite western is Sergio Leone’s ‘Once Upon a Time in the West’.   The one where nothing happens for the first ten minutes.   Just Leone setting the scene and evoking the atmosphere.   It rewards a degree of unhurried attention, which movies could command back in the old days.   Wouldn’t work on TV, I think, not even ad-free TV.

That’s enough waffle from me.

[syzygy @thane16]

@dentarthurdent Once upon a Time in the West is a stunning work.

[nerys @nerys]

How have I missed this thread and its brilliant observations?

Actually, now I see exactly how I missed this thread. Weirdly, “On the Sofa 11” is not showing up among the topics in the General forum discussions. The only reason I knew to reply to it is because I received several notifications for posts in which I was tagged. I can access the thread via notifications, but (at least for me) it doesn’t display in the General discussion forum.

Is anyone else noticing this glitch? I’ve messaged Craig about it.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

The beginning of Once Upon a Time in The West is astonishing. I still remember the first time I saw it… WHAT???

But it had been brewing since A Few Dollars More. Love Morricone’s scores.

Touch of Evil has another outrageous opening shot. Also the opening sequence of Goodfellas. What shall I watch tonight? Oh dear ain’t got the last two. Or Once Upon a Time. Why you lookin at me like that Clint?

[winston @winston]

@nerys    I think Donna is feisty , mouthy ,loud and angry and I love her. She reminds me of one of my sisters, my aunt and my mom , slightly scary and liable to run all over me but there is nobody better to have in your corner when the going gets tough. The Doctor Donna will fight for what is right and for the underdog. I think she is a great companion and like you I am happy she got her memories back and her very own backyard Doctor.

@ps1l0v3y0u    @thane16    I admit that I have never cared for  Once Upon a Time in the West or other “spaghetti westerns”, maybe it’s all the squinting?

stay sane

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16 @ps1l0v3y0u That beginning, with no music, just a creaky windpump, is very effective. And Morricone’s score, particularly Jill’s Theme which is a haunting piece of music.
I watched it recently and managed to follow all the plot threads (for the first time). Not that it’s complicated, just that Leone leaves the audience to join up the dots. For example, those guys who are trying to ambush Frank in the main street (and Harmonica saves him) – were did they come from? Well, several scenes before, Frank’s men were guarding Morton in his railroad car when he pulls out a sheaf of banknotes…
If there was a shortcoming, some of the Italian extras were a bit cheesy. But the main cast was excellent, notably Henry Fonda as the ruthless Frank, Jason Robards as the outlaw Cheyenne, and of course Charles Bronson as the taciturn Harmonica. Apparently that was written for Eastwood, and he would have been good, but he turned it down and Bronson absolutely aced it.
I didn’t even feel inclined to nitpick the steam engines, which were a couple of ancient Spanish broad gauge locos slightly dressed up – one of them even had outside Stephenson valve gear which is very rare indeed, but Leone framed all his shots so the difference wasn’t obvious.
Apparently it was trimmed by 20 minutes for the American distribution and was almost a flop, but in Europe it (I suppose you’d call it a ‘director’s cut’) became a cult classic.

@winston I’m not a great fan of westerns, spaghetti or otherwise, as such. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was quite good, most notably for the three-cornered gunfight** in the cemetery where he gave us (and presumably the characters) time to work out the intriguing logic – whoever drew first was, all things being equal, likely to kill one of the others and the third one would then kill him. I believe it’s known as a ‘Mexican standoff’. (**Oops, typo, I originally typed ‘bunfight’. Now that would have been something to see 🙂
I did like Doctor Who’s classic Western (‘A Town Called Mercy’). Written by Toby Whithouse. I did like his work on Being Human.
And (back to Westerns:) I also like The Prisoner’s ‘Living in Harmony’. I think any series that runs long enough ends up doing a Western sooner or later. Farscape did (Home on the Remains, though with rather cringey ‘western’ accents), Firefly did nothing else, Star Wars had strong Western elements (I think), so did Blakes 7.

[syzygy @thane16]

@nerys @winston I can recall Donna’s appeal which hit me more in the episodes with Doctor 14. I saw a Short on YouTube in which she bemoans giving away her money with her husband, Rose & the Doctor highlighting her compassion & empathy.

I also remember how she heard & felt, temporarily, the Ood’s song of captivity which the Doctor heard at all times. Murray Gold is incredible with this. The first time I listened to the Doctor’s theme with rich double basses, woodwinds & the haunting vocalise, I thought it fit 9 & 10s incarnations perfectly in 2005/06.

@dentarthurdent @ps1l0v3y0u Morricone was the first (or perhaps second after Oldfield) film composer that I as a child or teen was drawn to. I thought Leone’s adherence to film as spectacle was realised perfectly. Watching in cinema was quite the memorable experience. I too loved Being Human & rewatched A Town called Mercy this year.

@nerys thank you for the book recommendation! I think your phrase of how “woke” is now a form of oppression is a truism; but has it also become its own linguistic equivalent of negativity, an icon of (seemingly) right wing dogmatism & an easy hit against perceived conformity? I know little about this though & enjoy the discussion

Puro.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16   Morricone’s ‘Jill’s Theme’ is haunting, I have it on my MP3 player (sung by Edda dell’Orso, as in the movie).    I also have a version with a theremin taking the ‘sung’ part, and in the mid-upper ranges it sounds eerily like a human voice.

As musical scores go, I thought Murray Gold’s score called ‘The Shepherd’s Boy’ was one of the best.  (That’s the one that played at the final scene in Day of the Doctor, and when the 12th Doctor was breaking through the diamond wall in Heaven Sent).   I also liked the plaintive Clara’s theme, as played memorably by the Doctor in the diner in Hell Bent.

Of course the original Doctor Who theme tune, all the way from the BBC Radiophonic Workshop days onwards, has been pretty addictive too.   As a totally irrelevant aside, if you listen to Pink Floyd’s ‘Pulse’ album, from their ‘Division Bell’ tour, they dropped that musical phrase into the middle of ‘Another Brick in the Wall.’   Digressing yet further, Dave Gilmour invited Doug Adams to play guitar on a couple of tracks on the penultimate day of that tour.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@dentarthurdent I hadn’t ever known about Gilmore and Adams.

I was 18-19 listening to Dark Side of the Moon & typically did a “I don’t like it.” As a classicist, I was a snob & ignorant of “modern music” for at least another year.

Though I did see a few rock concerts, as young as 11-13 because the babysitter had tickets so threw a dressing gown over my PJs & a blanket over my head. That was a scary rite of passage!

Puro.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Apparently Doug Adams was in that ‘scene’, he threw parties attended by many of the rock artists. And it reflects in his books, remember Disaster Area, the loudest rock band in the universe? And he mentioned Mark Knopfler specifically by name in So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish.

I was a bit of a classical snob when I was a teen. Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Grieg – the ‘pop’ classics. Then I went to engineering school, boarding in a hostel, and the only thing to listen to in the long evenings was one ‘pirate’ channel – Radio Hauraki. First songs I noticed were ‘Different Drum’ (Linda Ronstadt) and ‘The Carnival is Over’ (Seekers – Judith Durham). Quite coincidentally, I still rate Linda Ronstadt’s voice as the best ever, and Judith Durham as #2. But now, Linda Ronstadt has lost her voice, and Judith Durham died a couple of months ago. I’m getting old. And R.I.P. Dolly Parton and Tim Curry (not that I’m suggesting he was much as a singer, but I found his slightly hammy over-the-top delivery as an actor, fascinating).
Pink Floyd passed me by for decades until one night, I was channel-hopping at midnight just about to go to bed and I caught by accident their ‘Pulse’ concert, couldn’t turn it off, the music and the light show blew me away. By next morning I was a Pink Floyd addict.
I think mature Pink Floyd – and much pop music in general – has much more in common with the sound of older European ‘classical’ music than modern ‘serious’ music does. That is, the same conventions of harmony and tempo are being followed. I think, but I’m NOT a musicologist and I’m not putting it very well, and I stand to be corrected.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @thane16

Floyd! It’s difficult to talk about them without sounding like an obsessive. I really know nothing about their later post Walters incarnation. I know Gilmour was a friend of Jackie Leven, who I greatly admire.

I’m bewildered by their struggles after Syd Barrett ‘imploded.’ There was a huge struggle over what they were going to do and do frittered a lot of great music away on soundtracks and bizarre compositional experiments. Much of this seemed to come about in order to avoid a battle between Waters and Wright. But some great music was recorded and in fact the Waters dominated Dark Side to Final Cut era comes across as quite dull in comparison.

In particular, I love Atom Heart Mother (1970). The surviving members of the band have nothing good to say of it. Curiously the main theme of the title track was originally ‘theme to an imaginary western.’ It does have a Morricone thing happening.

I wish the original plan of a shorter version of Wish You Were Here combined with Animals had come to fruition. There are some great words there.

[syzygy @thane16]

@dentarthurdent no, you’re right: Floyd had harmonic, & romantic or enlightenment tonal harmony baked in, though tempo wasn’t part of any classical conventional certainty, at least not after the 14th century & the shift from sacred to secular composition allowing for specific tempo markings not interfering with sacred musical or liturgical practice.

If you also meant rhythm, there was certainly a greater diversity here, post 14th century. Additionally, musical consonances starts to occur more on the strong beats.

One can witness all of that in PF. @ps1l0v3y0u I also have issues with some of PF tracks. That massive change in the 60s with Roger, an intelligent guy, who is determined to express his super personal ideas. Obviously with power moving from producers to consumers, the ‘seeing what’s popular’ & then packaging it meant that the consumer interest was spacey & so spaciness became PF’s ever present ‘thing.’

There was a time when music wasn’t known by any 1 thought or thing. Stravinsky knew expression isn’t just 1 property of music & that there’s not always a correlation between a composer’s feelings & their notation. For him rhythm, tone & construction were constructive.

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