[kingofthemountain @replies]

@arbutus

of course you are right. After all the confusion regarding how to name each doctor now you would have thought I’d given it some thought before asking that. Seems such a silly question now.

@brewski

Thank you 🙂 did you pose something similar earlier?

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@purofilion

Also having him not die on Trenzalore but his tomb is moved there means he doesn’t have to worry about going to Trenzalore because he risks dying and also means we can’t know for sure that he will always survive dangerous situations provided he is not on Trenzalore AND NotD still happened this way

[kingofthemountain @replies]

@arbutus

Thanks for reading 🙂

@purofilion

So my idea wasn’t that tM would have created Clara, but that it would have used her to help the doctor by giving her the doctors phone numbe (BoSJ). of course that alone didn’t work because she had to become the Claricles for her phone call to grab the Doctor’s attention at all, which she did long after she called him, but that’s the order it happened in the show.
I also prefer the idea that the Doctor’s tomb is still on Trenzalore, he just didn’t die as Eleven and also he didn’t die there but rather his tomb was placed there (you wouldn’t expect people to be buried in the floors under their hospital beds) when he eventually did die (hopefully after a lot more regenerations). Then you don’t have to worry about NotD and Clara in the time stream never having had happened because that would had to have had some
Greater implications (and not seeing Capaldi doctor’s face (“I saw all your faces”) could be explained that the 2.1-2.13 doctors have a separate time stream that can be jumped into)

Regarding BW statement, I think that definitely could just be something the writer’s used to introduce us to the power of tM (it knows his future having just met him) to make us a little bit more comfortable with it bringing 3 Doctors together through a magical portal and also later bringing 13 doctors into a time locked time war (also given there were “all 13 of him” there does that mean tennant’s double somehow showed up as well?)

[kingofthemountain @replies]

@purofilion

“we have the situation of The Dr reading about physics which I’m sure we sorted out but I can’t remember…”

I was about to address this just then but i forgot. If i recall correctly The Doctor was reading a book with a title to do quantum physics that ties to something about ‘braids’ and hinted at possibilities of superposition related to trenzalore (‘trenza’ means something in spanish i think is what someone said). Other than it’s hinting i don’t think it did much plot-wise (yet?) but it definitely helps anyone theorising about dual timelines. For me i thought it helped me justify the idea of tM being in one of universes in the crack, all by itself in the spot where Gallifrey was, and Gallifrey with TLs and tM in the other universe.

thanks

[kingofthemountain @replies]

@purfilion

Thanks for reading 🙂 granted this definitely made more sense in my head than i am able to express in words

“so basically, Capaldi doc is slightly confused (at first) as he’s on Gallifrey too?”

I should have explained here, this is an idea I came up with that would fit in with the ideas about him having lost his memory and regains throughout series 8, and also because a few people said it would be really cool if he was behind the crack. So at some point in the middle of series 8 maybe he remembers himself calling his other selves to Gallifrey, so he thinks he must go back to that time and help at once, only to remember too late that his former self didn’t factor him into his calculations (Eleven probably didn’t even know 2.1 was there and had no issue with his plan having worked), thus he wasn’t exempt from being moved into the pocket universe.

“Also, TM as BW -which I think we did discuss many many moons ago!”

Do you mean there was a general consensus on this being viable or not? sorry I probably missed it or haven’t read it yet if there was, I just remember reading in this forum there was a bit of discussion about it. Also many moons ago for you was just the other day for me.

“I think the Dr did die on Trenza but Clara hopped in his stream and stopped it -however, we have the situation of The Dr reading about physics which I’m sure we sorted out but I can’t remember”

I think it will turn out like that as well, and it is certainly one of the viable explanations 😛 I just thought I had a neat little way to tie everything together but any aspect that doesn’t fit in i think is dispensable enough.

“As for the tM giving him regens-would she give him enough that he would use it as a weapon against the Daleks? I’m not sure on the morality of that one?”

I was thinking of tM as being BW for this part, which would fit in with what she did in tPotW, but if not then we know that tM didn’t have any problems with The Doctor effectively destroying all the Daleks when he shifted Gallifrey and made them shoot each other, however that was more a case of turning their own aggression on themselves.

“Also Tennant couldn’t see BW”

Yeh for this part i just meant that when War Doctor mentioned “Bad Wolf” we saw Tennant look at him suddenly with a look of surprise, “How in the world do you know of Bad Wolf?” he thinks to himself. But this was never followed up in the episode, which was weird to me.

“it was designed as a weapon for the TL who wanted to use it -a subconscious weapon which showed itself in the kindest and also the most memorable way -in other words. scoring your heart, as it were.

Rose, I think, was BW first, then the Moment took on that ‘look’ shall we say. Indeed the Moment states that ‘I am taking on a form of something/someone from your past’ -enter Rose as first NuWho companion -which in anniversary land is all very heart melting!”

At the time i had just passed this off as it was explained, tM was making itself look like someone the Doctor knows to make it easy to talk to him, and that makes perfect sense as well. But the fact that it said “you know me as Bad Wolf” (or something similar) and that it said “I’m from your past, or was it your future? I always get those mixed up” were either clever filler conversations that were interesting or put there to let us bonker about it until/if it is cleared up. We know from there that tM has the thing like the TARDIS where it exists in all moments of time, or at least is aware of the future, so it just opens the door for it to possibly interfere with the Doctors past (ie tPotW) and create those sort of time loops which someone mentioned  (ie creating Clara and making the things which happened happen)

At this point I can’t even remember which parts of what i’ve said are original, but I definitely borrowed from as many as I could of the theories i read in this forum to see if i might make more of them possible 😛

Thanks again for reading. Where should I look to see where all the main action is happening on this website? I will probably find that much of what i’ve said has been disproven/resolved/agreed otherwise 😛

[kingofthemountain @replies]

WARNING this post is SERIOUSLY long

Hi everyone. I only began watching Doctor Who a couple of months ago, and got hooked pretty quickly, watching all of AG Who in a few weeks. Needless to say, it is one of the greatest things I have done, and I couldn’t get enough. Unfortunately I haven’t means or the free time anymore to re-watch it all (although I intend to at some point) and so I have taken to this newly found website and have thoroughly enjoyed it all. I haven’t looked at all of the threads because that would require me to be more than an average-slow pace reader with a lot of time on my hands, but I have finally trudged through most of what I thought most intriguing/important, including a few days of getting through this forum bit by bit.

I am loving all of the bonkers (I’ve picked up this word without having used it once before, thank you all) theories regarding The Moment/Bad Wolf, is The Moment behind the crack, is The Doctor behind the crack, split time lines and the like and thought I would chime in with something that has slowly festered in my subconscious while I’ve slowly read through this forum. Being my first post there is a lot flying around in my head so forgive the length of it.

Now I have only seen each episode in the show once so I can expect quite a few problems with this, but I have something that I feel might sort of be interesting to you all (I will try to minimize use of brackets to keep it a bit clearer… *ironically presses closing bracket key*). I also apologise if I am only repeating something which has been cleared up in a different forum/blog.

First thing I want to say is that I think a split time line following tDoTD makes a lot of sense to me because (in addition to what has already postulated by bluesqueakpip and someone else who I apologise I have forgotten the identity of) in tNoTD when Clara enters his time stream she says she saw all of his faces and most likely did not see CapDoc’s face because she would either be confused upon seeing him in the TARDIS 2 episodes later, or there would be a big problem with her knowing who the last doctor was/will be. This implies to me that in that timeline, Eleven actually did die on Trenzalore, and so the entering of the time stream must be one of the few things that would be different to the alternate timeline created in tDotD. If there is only one timeline following tDotD, there surely must be 2 timelines following tTotD, because Capaldi simply didn’t show up in the time stream, but he is indeed a Doctor. Of course it could very well be that time was re-written in tTotD, or perhaps that Capaldi is, while still The Doctor, not technically (ie by definition) the same time lord, and so there were 2/3/4 time streams in his grave-TARDIS (which was put their following his inevitable death as the 407^th Doctor incarnation in 300 years) and Eleven couldn’t possibly have thought that he need look elsewhere in the grave-TARDIS once he saw his timestream in the first room. ( I just kind of like the 2 time lines idea :))

Moving on, first something to set up my post: When RTD rebooted DW I think he definitely had something planned regarding the Time War, even before introducing season 1, but thought that it was probably not best to introduce what would be a new show to a lot of viewers with a scenario that both had a lot of set up and was a critically defining point for the main character. In season 1 we know that The Doctor has just been through the Time War, that he is the last Time Lord, believes there are no Daleks left and he has done something (I can’t remember if he ever said it was during the Time War or not) that he really seriously feels guilty for. Maybe it was just me, but I had suspicion during the whole season that he had killed all of the Time Lords and Daleks as a way to end the Time War based on these things, and during tPotW when said something like “now you see the decision I have to make” to captain Jack I thought surely that is what happened in the Time War. Now if I am correct that RTD had his idea about what would happen in the Time War when he finally put it in an episode and decided to show this much later in the series to allow The Doctor to have this ongoing and defining guilt for many seasons, and made tPotW a very similar scenario to what The Doctor did in the Time War (I know Moffat wrote tDotD but I think the idea that he killed everyone was pretty hard to avoid), I would not be surprised if The Moment and Bad Wolf are indeed linked (purely from a “could the writer’s have thought this far ahead” viewpoint).

Now my serious bonkers theory regarding 1) The Moment being behind the crack 2) The Doctor being behind the crack 3) are The Moment, Bad Wolf and perhaps the time vortex all one (or linked) and do they continue to do things following tDotD 4) Clara 5) dual timelines

So in tDotD we find out that there are now 2 time lines and in one of them he didn’t destroy Gallifrey. I think it is reasonable that The Moment is still active in both time lines (ie it didn’t destroy itself when The War Doctor pressed the BRB). Now we fast forward 400 or so years in the Doctor’s timeline and he is on Trenzalore listening to someone ask him “Doctor Who?!” and they’ve accidentally hit the repeat button on their speakers. Now I do like someone’s ideas of ‘trenza’ having something to do with superposition in quantum-ness-stuff, implying that on trenzalore, in the crack there are simultaneously 2 things existing, one of them is The Moment, having just destroyed Gallifrey, waiting to pass judgment on The Doctor (again I’ve used someone elses idea but I can’t remember whose, so I am sorry) and the other one is Gallifrey, with all the TLs AND The Moment, who has decided it doesn’t mind talking to people and thinks it might be a good idea to see if it can get these TLs back into the regular universe to be normal and do stuff again (I get the feeling that not having seen any Classic Who I am wrong in thinking this is altogether a good idea, but hey there are endless possibilities if they come back). The Moment recognises that it is currently in superposition, being at the crack twice at the same time, and the one on Gallifrey sort of asks the one on destroyed Gallifrey “what are you doing here?” “I want to pass judgment on The Doctor” “Ah but there are 2 of us, so you might be thinking about the wrong Doctor” “Good point, let’s ask him which Doctor he is shall we” “Agreed. DOCTOR WHO?!”

Now  The Doctor either believes or knows (undecided on which one just yet) that if he answers that question (and he thinks the question is asking for his real name, which it might not be) the TLs on Gallifrey will come back through the crack, and although they don’t know it, they will start the Time War again, so he refrains from asking, all the while The Moment and Gallifrey are stuck in their time loop just waiting (which is why they didn’t just say stuff it after 400 years and come back anyway)

Now let’s get to this same point in time but from Gallifrey’s perspective: They are in the Time War, the Daleks have gotten through their sky fortresses (or some name like that) and are wreaking havoc on Gallifrey (in one of the mini episodes before tDotD someone said if 1 Dalek gets through, it will end us, then we see a whole fleet). They realise they need a SERIOUSLY powerful weapon if they are to  survive, so they make a thing and they put some vortex-y stuff in it because, well , the time vortex is pretty crazy. Then the thing they seems to develop a conscience so they don’t use it. The War Doctor then shows up and steals The Moment, and all the TLs think “great, we are 100% doomed, he is going to kill us with the Daleks”, however instead of pressing the BRB The Moment talks to him by taking the shape of how he has once seen it before (or was it after, I always get those mixed up :P), tDotD happens, he comes back with all of his other selves, ready to move the whole planet out of the Dalek’s way. *lots of shaky noises and a massive tremor* Gallifrey is now in a pocket universe. But hold on there is still one Doctor here with us. Capaldi Doctor walks on Gallifrey for the first time in hundreds of years, somewhat happy for this, but somewhat confused and annoyed about being stuck in the pocket universe as well. Then he says “ah this part of my memory is just now coming back to me. I remembered that I called all of my other selves to help me shift Gallifrey, so I went to help shift Gallifrey, but I hadn’t remembered that when I did that I typed in some computer programming saying that only myself and previous selves should not be shifted, I suppose I am not a previous self of my previous self, thus I got shifted :P.” They accept his answer and he goes to help The Moment.

Now back to trenzalore and The Doctor is biding as much time as he can when Clara finds her way back and they have their lovely chats and then she says to the crack that they should help him. Now The Moment says “that’s lovely but I can’t see what he needs help with through this darned crack, I can just hear stuff”. So Capaldi Doctor (I am going to refer to him as Doctor 2.1, or just 2.1) says “good heavens I think I’ve finally remembered everything, I only survived that because you gave me a new regeneration” “seems fair enough, you’ve just saved us all from being destroyed by Daleks and you also destroyed all the Daleks and also if you don’t survive we are basically doomed to remain here forever or go back out and fight the Daleks again” “Jolly good, well we can’t see through the crack, because obviously we would have helped me earlier if we could have, so this is a map of trenzalore and I am standing on the clock tower” so they give him the regens. Now The Moment sees more into it than The Doctor because it is, you know, super powerful. So it does everything it has to do in order make The Doctor have done everything we know he has done because it all leads up to him not destroying Gallifrey after all and also being on trenzalore for what is currently happening to happen. It turns into Bad Wolf to save him in tPotW (of course a few hours ago [from it’s perspective] it already knew it had been Bad Wolf, but, you know, timey-wimey and uber powerful), it shows itself as the mysterious TL lady in tEoT, and as the last piece of the puzzle it gives Clara The Doctor’s phone number so she can grab his attention, leading him to making her the new companion, leading her to enter the time stream, creating the reason that her phone call grabbed his attention (the last time-wimey magic of The Moment), leading her to trenzalore.

Basically that was a way I saw of tying a lot of your different theories into one ultimate bonkers theory. Let me know what you think, if indeed you have read any or all of it.

A couple of side notes:
I think Bad Wolf/The Moment is able to influence people’s minds without them knowing it, because a couple of the ways it tries to lead Rose to absorbing the vortex energy and becoming Bad Wolf is it has a child spray paint ‘Bad Wolf’ on the TARDIS, and in that episode where he re-visits the farting alien who became mayor, we see she had ‘randomly’ chosen a name is actually ‘Bad Wolf’ in another language. So either they are genuinely coincidences or BW has actually made these people do these things (maybe she made Clara want to go into the time stream, and maybe she did that before she gave Clara the phone number because timey-wimey).

If indeed The Moment is BW, we know from tPotW that she is able to destroy the Daleks completely without actually harming any of the ‘good guys’, which could mean either that 1)The Doctor wouldn’t have actually destroyed Gallifrey had he pressed the BRB but BW wanted him to not press it for his own conscience’s sake, however I don’t see dual timelines working in that case 🙁 or 2) if it was being used as The Moment it was created and intended to cause destruction and so couldn’t have not destroyed Gallifrey if it was put into action by the BRB.

The way that The Moment was mentioned in passing in tEoT and also how when War Doctor mentioned BW we saw Tennant looked surprised but there was absolutely no follow up  even though we know that was a pretty big deal to him (and there was another thing but I can’t for the life of me remember what it was) make me think that The Moment/BW will be showing up again at some point.

Being Australian I at times had trouble understanding what was said. Rarely by The Doctor, just at times when he was a bit rushed or was yelling, but a few times with Amy, and most of Capaldi’s dialogue at the end of tTotD so I really hope this Scottish accent won’t give me troubles in the next couple of seasons 🙁

“because timey-wimey” is now one of my favourite things to say

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