General Open Thread – TV Shows
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JimTheFish 11 years, 4 months ago.
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6 February 2015 at 21:56 #37851
@discostupac – Thank you so much! Very much appreciated. Those folks created a really very effecting
story and at the same time utterly twisted on so many levels. I found myself empathizing with all those
different characters in spite of the extremely peculiar life choices.:)
I’m so glad you popped in today!6 February 2015 at 23:45 #37853Anonymous @
“Bite me”. When I heard that, I was certain as the day is long that it appeared in Buffy first. But apparently not true.
I know, I know, I am waaay behind on Buffy.
@ichabod T. Stamp -yes, I think so. All lean, courteous and angular. Love it.
7 February 2015 at 00:32 #37854@purofilion
I watched the last 2 eps of S5 last night, just for kicks, and had quite forgotten that the penultimate episode has my all time fave Buffy scene in it.
Not that I’m dropping hints to get on with it or anything.
Oh, no. No siree.
7 February 2015 at 04:19 #37856So, I’m nearly 8 episodes in to S5 and it’s good.
Dawn is The Key -good.
Tara is -not a demon
Glory is…good.
It’s all good. That’s it, really.
I fear that without Spike’s complexity, I’d be a bit tired??
But, I think something bad’s gonna happen to Riley!! And Joyce, I predicted her possible demise….she’s been a bit ‘absent’.
On a grace note, I do now understand “rotate many foodstuffs.”
7 February 2015 at 04:35 #37859Ooh0aah, things are hottin’ up now! Very good. Very, very, good. I’m remarkably prosaic, aren’t I?
7 February 2015 at 09:51 #37861@purofilion — take your time. There’s no rush. Do it at your own pace. It is, after all, meant to be fun.
Family is one of my all-time favourite episodes. It serves the double role of making you love Tara, if you didn’t already, and showing the renewed bond between the Scoobies. The fact that Riley is absent and Spike is not speaks volumes.
7 February 2015 at 10:27 #37865@purofilion
Yeah – Riley is definitely having an “I’m a hunky chap and can’t cope with a badass girlfriend” time, isn’t he? The attentive viewer will recognise the vampire girl as Sandy, who Vamp!Willow ….er … vamped in Doppelgangland.
I think Family is an a rather under-rated episode in fandom at large. As well as what @jimthefish says it lays out something that is important to the season as a whole in rather a clever way. But more on that later.
I’m remarkably prosaic, aren’t I?
I don’t know about that, but some clearer signposting about what you’re responding to would help in terms of spoiler avoidage 😉 If you’re on the ep I think you are you’ve just met Worst Snake Ever (they tried a new FX house and….it didn’t go well).
VERY imp that you avoid spoilers from here out.
7 February 2015 at 11:12 #37866‘Listening to Fear’ -I’m about 20 mins in and then lads wanted fish ‘n chips from ‘Vinegar Jones’. Long walk.
I enjoyed ‘Family’ -actually think Tara is a great actor in that role-she’s perfectly stuttery but very even-handed.
I think Anya’s lines -regarding her new job with “boss man” Giles are hilarious -and there’s some heavily freighted sub text about capitalism and domestic niceties.
All in all, Spike is quite the actor (or I should say James M.) -when he’s determined to kill Buffy and then sees her sorrow, his reaction shot is calibrated beautifully. As wounded poet, opening his heart to ‘effulgence’, he was terrific. I’m so glad that Spike features -but in just the right capacity & with quality lines.
Nope, absolutely not reading a single thing -or listening to a commentary. I still don’t know how the Key (Dawn) will be utilised or diffused but I can only imagine catastrophic consequences. They must protect Dawn and yet she’s dreadfully dangerous -without knowing it. A lovely case of dramatic irony. The shift in Buffy’s position towards her, strengthens Buffy’s own character and I suspect this leads to Riley’s mental flagellation -and his ‘weak point’ in the bar with Sandy -thank you! I didn’t recognise her at all. Neither did The Boy -which is rare.
Takin’ a break to watch a New old Foyle -series 9, I think! Always like a to watch Michael Kitchen looking grim on a Saturday evening.
7 February 2015 at 14:02 #37869@pedant — it never twigged that was who Sandy was till now. Damn.
@purofilion – yes, James Marsters is doing fine work here and I have to say I think his best is yet to come. On the whole Bangel vs Spuffy debate, I come down firmly on the side of the peroxide one. Fool for Love is a great episode too. Some of Dru’s best stuff in there too. And I don’t think it’s spoilery to say that it’s one of those eps that will best be understood when it’s put into the context of its companion episode in Angel.
Haven’t seen the latest Foyle’s War run yet so no spoilers please. But it’s another one of my favourite shows.
7 February 2015 at 15:14 #37879@purofilion @jimthefish
Marsters certainly delivers the goods (he has some very interesting things to say about it that it would be very premature to go into now), but back in “oooh! This is all new Buffy” days there wasa degree of resentment that the writers had developed a bit of a crush on him. Mistaken, IMO, except for a few moments quite a way down the road, but indicative of the care writers need to take. Some saddo on Usenet did an analysis of the shooting scripts to show how he had pushed out other characters. Which is really sad, if you think about it.
As far as spuffy/bangel – I am firmly in the camp of the administrators of smgfans.net (or com or whatever): a blanket ban of all discussion because it crowds all other discussion out, especially sensible discussion of the nature of the two relationships. And storytelling is far too important for that to happen. It also spawned Twilight, and I class that as a crime against humanity.
It is a source of some joy that, by-and-large, Who fandom has been spared such drivel.
What’s interesting in this arc is that Spike knows he is a monster, revels in being a monster – but thanks to the chip is having to grasp the unintended consequences of being that thing. But he doesn’t have what Angel had – a soul – and the clear question at this point is ‘does the chip create a quasi-soul’?
Curious pedantic fact: railway spikes have never been used in Britain, so his nickname never really made sense.
There are a couple of fun interviews with Mercedes McNab, who was 18 when she did her first scenes with Marsters, who was 42. You never really think of that sort of pressure on an actor.
Curious pedantic fact 2: Mercedes is the daughter of John McNab, Arsenal right back of the 1970s.
7 February 2015 at 15:15 #37880Oh, and totally salute the Foyle’s War love. I :heart: Honeysuckle Weeks.
7 February 2015 at 15:31 #37881@pedant —
What’s interesting in this arc is that Spike knows he is a monster, revels in being a monster – but thanks to the chip is having to grasp the unintended consequences of being that thing. But he doesn’t have what Angel had – a soul – and the clear question at this point is ‘does the chip create a quasi-soul’?
Good point but such a Season 7 discussion, I suspect. But I think it’s safe to say that Spike has a much more nuanced redemptive arc than Angel, even despite the depth Angel is given in his own series.
And on Foyle. Michael Kitchen is probably the greatest member of the Watchers’ Council we never had.
7 February 2015 at 17:21 #37883Yep – although there is much of interest that is imminent and it is very much a continuing story. Whedon was carefully non-specific in a couple of his key concepts, which gave him plenty of wriggle room.
But the fundamental S5 theme (or rather one of its strands) is about to become more evident (but @purofilion needs to finish Listening to Fear first).
Michael Kitchen as Quentin. Now there’s an idea (with no disrespect to Harris Yulin).
7 February 2015 at 17:45 #37884@lisa – you are welcome, and if you’ve never seen it I would heartily recommend checking out all 3 series of The League of Gentlemen.
Just wanted to say that the discussions on here have prompted me to start re-watching Buffy, too, though I’m not keeping up the same rapid pace as you all are! (Currently part way into season 2).
I’ve been reading the site for a long time, on and off, and did post a few times back before Day of the Doctor first aired but don’t always find myself with much to say.I’ve noted a few comments regarding Babylon 5 in the past, which has always been one of my favourites, and just wanted to echo the recommendations for that. I’d agree with previous comments that it, alongside Buffy (and perhaps even The X-Files?) really started the movement from episode-of-the-week shows towards the story arc structure we have these days. Plus, B5 has stacks of character development and it’s really interesting to see how things turn out over the long haul. The fact that the underlying plan for the show was always there right from the beginning, even if it did change a little bit along the way, really shines through. Unlike some other shows (like Lost, for example – which I do rather like but really does have more than a whiff of making it up as they went along).
7 February 2015 at 22:07 #37885@discostupac welcome! @pedant @jimthefish
I’m back on “Season 7”. There’s a Season 7?? I thought it ended at 6!
OK.
Now, “Marsters was 42 with Mercedes?” No!! He was 30, wasn’t he? At the most? Coz his face doesn’t move. That’s my evidence.
No railways spikes -well, that’s annoying.
Honeysuckle Weekes/Weeks: hah! yes, but have you seen Perdita Week/es? They have the same face -except with key bits. But I’m sure they’re related.
7 February 2015 at 22:52 #37887@discostupac ‘Lost’ you mentioned? Is it good?
I work with people who think it’s great -but in every area they terrify me. They watch Big Brother and so when they speak I shut down! I imagine I miss the good bits. Also, their idea of real hard hitting journalism is 60 mins -again, I ‘go to sleep’/shut down but mutter sh*t a lot.
Mind, I have a lot of Buffy to watch, and Angel -the latter is surprising me; it’s intoxicating and has a total life of its own which I didn’t expect. Now that Wesley’s back on the scene. Of course this may be a big spoiler to you? Oops!
7 February 2015 at 22:58 #37888@pedant @jimthefish speaking of Angel…Should I have watched all of S1 before starting S5 of Buffy?
I suspect the answer is ‘yes’. Oh dear, I did my best but I have…let’s see, about 5 episodes of S1 Angel left. No doubt, I’ve lost some key parallel episodes. Better get cracking -I tell ya, the theme music in Angel ‘out does’ Buffy by a long shot. I cannot get it out of my head. Boy Ilion is singing it/listening to the theme tune on his ipod whenever he can. Christopher Beck wrote the theme, I think.
7 February 2015 at 23:20 #37889@purofilion
Should I have watched all of S1 before starting S5 of Buffy?
It isn’t essential, but there is a Angel companion piece to Fool For Love that is well worth catching up with. It sort of fleshes out the Buffyverse and gives a nice alternative perspective, but Angel does generally follow its own logic and tone.
There are, indeed, 7 seasons.
Masters was, also indeed, 42 – something he did a very good job of keeping quiet until after Buffy had finished. He’s only 2 years younger than me (although I’m more devilishly handsome, obviously).
(Lost started excellently, but then badly lost direction as it became a bit of a shaggy dog story – and then it was given a firm end date and it rediscovered it purpose and ended, IMO, superbly.)
Perdita is Honeysuckle’s sister.
So have you finished Listening To Fear yet?
7 February 2015 at 23:54 #37890@pedant I’m turning on the DVD player now. I have three glorious hours to myself and Buffy.
42? Seriously? Whoa? But he looks, you know….buff (I believe that is a ‘thing’ now). Yeah, I don’t find him handsome in the …typical way. He’s attractive but it’s the role/the character. I’ve heard, in corners, that he was considered yummy by the gals at the time. Mercedes being 18 and him 42, is quite a stretch (pun) and they carry it off beautifully, but then SMG would have been 25 during S5? Possibly older.
I recall, before I stopped the commentaries, that Dushku was quite a bit younger, and yet, of the two, SMG appears more youthful -the All American Blonde and slim good looks, I spose (that, and genes).
I mentioned Buffy to one of my bosses on Friday and expected a “who?” Turns out he’s a major fan. At one point he started talking about S5 and I had to hold up my hand.
He’s totally on board with non-spoiler etiquette so I like him even more. But then I introduced him to The West Wing -which he enjoyed immensely. He introduced me to Newsroom -but I haven’t even seen S2 of this. And it can wait.
Gleeful. Telly!!
8 February 2015 at 01:21 #37891ooh, things are coming together nicely, now, aren’t they?
Whilst doing the dishes, neatly, in an attempt to restore some order and let’s face it, this is life, Buffy breaks down and sobs -to repetitive dance music on the radio.
Meanwhile, Joyce (in some of the best acting ever) is ranting at a real monster & Dawn is left to pull the queller off her mother as Buffy, washing her face in an effort to calm herself down, doesn’t hear Dawn’s panic -cut to the goo the queller left on Joyce’s face. Nice connection between washing for purity/refreshment/baptism and the queller’s trace goo and ‘face mask’. Images of a dish rack, packets of noodles and then…
Spike appears: “did you hear a noise?” and Buffy with her astounded, “hey, are those pictures of me?” right before Spike’s attacked, frees himself and then in perfect synchronicity, throws Buffy the knife
And then Riley arrives late. Again. The start of Act 1 has him sitting in a vampire crack den yet with his work buddies he’s like A Master -cool, controlled, careful.
And then Ben? “I’ve been cleaning up all of Glory’s messes my entire life”. Hell, if Glory exists ‘before words’ (echoes of The Satan Pit in Who), then who is Ben exactly?
Hottin’ up.
Hot damn. Boy has arrived home early and I was 15 mins into the next episode where, typically, Spike turns up in Buffy’s bedroom to lead her to poor, poor Riley. Where will this end?
Sorry about the narratin’ there -but that last episode was a total triumph. Unlike the fat lizard thing, this creature, all teeth, goo and red eyes, scuttlin’ about, was proper scary …as was Joyce.
8 February 2015 at 02:07 #37892@purofilion
Who is the one person in the world you don’t break a promise to? Even if she hadn’t before, Dawn has a fierce protector now.
(This is from the shooting script, so may not be word for word as broadcast)
JOYCE
No, I guess it isn’t. I do know I was
pretty out of it. And I had – not a
dream exactly. More like, I had this
knowledge. It just came to me – like
truth, you know? Even though it didn’t
seem possible. Even though I shouldn’t
think such things.
BUFFY
What, Mom? It’s okay.Joyce says the next with difficulty.
JOYCE
That Dawn…
(pained)
She’s not mine, is she?Buffy takes this in for a long beat. Finally-
BUFFY
No.Joyce labors to understand.
JOYCE
She’s – she does belong to us though.
BUFFY
Yes. She does.
JOYCE
And she’s important. To the world.
Precious …Buffy nods. Joyce takes her hand.
JOYCE
As precious as you are to me?
Buffy nods again – trying to hold it together.JOYCE
Then we have to take care of her.
Promise me, Buffy – if anything
happens to me, if I don’t come
through this-
BUFFY
(cutting her off)
Mom-JOYCE
No. Let me finish. No matter what
she is, she still feels like my daughter,
and I have to know you’ll keep her safe.
You’ll love her like I love you.
Buffy fights tears.BUFFY
I promise.JOYCE
Good. Good…
Joyce seems to relax a bit. Lays back and pulls her daughter to her. Holds her tenderly.JOYCE
My sweet, brave Buffy.
What would I do without you?8 February 2015 at 04:20 #37893@pedant thank you for that -it is a very good set of dialogue. But of course, it worries me as to what will happen to Joyce and Dawn.
This next episode, where Riley decides to leave and then Zander, saying to Anya, he has “something else on” meets with Buffy and gives her a serve. A very different Zander to one we’ve known before.
I’m very interested in Riley -and his attitude even back in S4 -the government connection; the belief that, on one level, it was Buffy’s fault and his delivering an ultimatum? Come on! That’s high school stuff and so, whilst I understand Riley’s pain and Zander’s insistence, I think back to the times Riley blew up: he was enigmatic one minute and inconsistent cow-boy ‘aw shucks,’ the next.
The fact of the Vamp Den, does count against Riley -and it should have a big impact on Buffy’s decision. He reminds me of the Master of Illusions: like Dionysius who could make his votaries see the world as the world’s not, Riley could simultaneously deliver a box of chocolates whilst taking out all his favourites with sleight of hand.
I think there’s a tendency to sentimentalise Riley -I kept saying “oh look, he’s trying so hard. He just so nice. Look! He’s at the fairground with Dawn” (the absolute wrong place in the end). It’s not about making interesting people seem good, either: he wasn’t ever very interesting and I suspect that’s the joy with Spike: he is interesting and he isn’t good, conventionally, but there’s a need to falsify him -at least that’s what I’m expecting with Spike and Buff’s relationship -complicated and ugly as it must become. Spike is silly, remote, vain and cruel and yet we love him. It’s that flaw running thru my own heart: do you (or I) care for someone because they’re interesting and good; or because they’re not?
“I given you everything that I have; my heart and soul and it’s not enough?”
“I just don’t feel it”
“And whose fault is that?”
8 February 2015 at 04:45 #37894of course, it’s staring at me all the time: Anya and Zander, a relationship which is good -very good. It works perfectly. At least at the moment!
8 February 2015 at 07:25 #37895Hey! The troll created by Anya and Willow is, I’m sure, Jerry from ER! He’s the right height -it’s his teeth and vaguely lispy voice. Gotta be him but I aint checkin’ no websites for fear of stumbling into the Big Bad -The innernet. Now, Dawn seems to know something’s up -honestly, why oh why do these people not keep their voices down.
8 February 2015 at 12:53 #37896@purofilion
Jerry from ER!
Yup.
Now, Dawn seems to know something’s up -honestly, why oh why do these people not keep their voices down.
To be fair she is quite good with the sneaking around (a bit f a Summers Girl trait).
9 February 2015 at 08:43 #37909I hate to state this aloud but I real kinda miserable for Spike -how hard does this guy try? He does everything short of tying her up -actually, he does do that but I feel awful for him and I really want them together -this, I don’t believe I’m saying and I understand it’s very teenage of me (I don’t have some crush on the actor, btw, and I’m not that self involved although it’s sounding pretty much like that). I mean come on, she ‘binds him’ away from her house. What is up with her??
I know, very teenage. Of me.
I do love episode whicheveritis (after Drusilla arrived and left): Dawn asks Joyce if she’s “seeing a gigolo? Does he have a shiny shirt?”
9 February 2015 at 09:42 #37911@purofilion
I mean come on, she ‘binds him’ away from her house. What is up with her??
He’s evil. Evil is not now how he acts, it’s what he is. He can’t help it. He has no soul. He is behaving like and obsessive, like a stalker because the chip gives him enough space to develop twisted crushes.
Buffy knows that.
The only reason he is alive is because he is neutered by the chip and so defenceless, and the only reason he helps is because doing so lets him kill.
Buffy knows that.
It really doesn’t matter how much he thinks he wants to change, the instant the chip is removed he will revert.
Buffy knows that.
That’s what is up with her.
Crush is the episode which caused a measurable chunk of the fanbase to completely forget the premise of the show.
(Crush – a truly marvellous piece of work – is also the episode where my patience with Dick van Landaus’s over-acting crappy-accentedness finally cracked a little. I really wanted a director to say “Juliet, love. Less, less. You lived in England for ages, did you not listen to people?”)
9 February 2015 at 10:20 #37912@purofilion — score another hit for Team Spuffy!!
@pedant — pish, tush, tosh! I’m loving the Drusilla action.
9 February 2015 at 10:23 #37913Yes, but you’re Scottish, so you don’t understand English accents!
9 February 2015 at 11:28 #37914@pedant — to be honest, you all sound like that to me anyway. I’ve always assumed JL was going for uncanny realism. 🙂 But to be fair, Mrs Fish, who is born-and-bred Londoner has similar gripes about Dru and the portrayal of the Watchers’ Council as well.
9 February 2015 at 20:06 #37916@jimthefish I noticed Landau did over-do a few lines with her: “Spoike”. That was a bit…ick…but, typically, I felt sorry f0r her too…
Yeah, but you know Spike is so…. helpful…
I know. “Buffy knows that.”
Still, she’s always yellin’ at him. But I forgot the stalker part. Cripes, why I didn’t I pick up on THAT?
Screaming Teenager
9 February 2015 at 20:17 #37917@purofilion
typically, I felt sorry f0r her too…Spike is so…. helpful…
And I’m sure the couple Dru killed in the Bronze really felt the sorrow.
Just goes to show how dangerous a concept the Red Shirt is in fiction…
9 February 2015 at 21:23 #37918I think one thing’s for sure and that’s that @purofilion will find some of the developments next season very interesting indeed…
9 February 2015 at 22:07 #37919Oh yes!
I confess I’d never really thought of the danger of Red Shirts before, just the lazy and/ or fearful light it shines on producers (can’t really blame the writers here – they have to work within confines).
But it does rather induce the viewer/ reader to minimise the impact of a killing. No-one important is lost so (in this case) we are left looking at the twisted love story rather than its costs.
One of the things that is awesome about Buffy is that things have consequences and Red Shirts are used very sparingly – even when the *mumblemumblemumble* turn up later there are no true Red Shirts. And with Riley, we had seen his vamp victim murdered three years before, when they could have grabbed somebody from Casting Central. Think of the craft that went into that handful of scenes.
And Tasha Yar doesn’t really counter-balance the vast population of Red Shirts that Star Trek, in its various guises, delivered.
Anyway, @purofilion is about to have her heart ripped out and stomped on. And then roasted. And then ripped out again.
9 February 2015 at 22:52 #37921RE. Red Shirts. It’s a good point and Whedon shows do better than most by the expendable cannon fodder. But even they don’t manage it all the time, especially when they continually bang on about the dire consequences of “taking a human life”. I noticed it a lot when rewatching s1 of Angel recently. There was more than one occasion when a human character looked to have been taken out and I was left wondering about it. It’s dire to take a human life — but not those guys.
Mind you, it’s kind of hard for any genre show to get around this completely. And to try is to run the risk of looking slightly ridiculous. (As in bad guys who walked away from helicopter explosions and the like in 80s shows like the A-Team etc.)
And, oh yeah, the Big Pain is imminent.
9 February 2015 at 23:19 #37923Maybe it was an Angel re-watch that triggered my thinking: I suspect that in Angel it was deliberate (or at least not entirely unconscious) to contrast LA with small-town Sunnydale. His very first ‘client’ died (and that set up avenging Angel), but I wonder if part of the point is that in the big city there are always going to be many, many defeats.
10 February 2015 at 04:11 #37926“is about to have her heart ripped out and stomped on. And then roasted. And then ripped out again.”
I am? Oh, Glory be!
There’ll be deaths won’t there – not ‘just’ the red shirts? It’s true that the amount of red shirts are limited -at least I think so. So many others TV shows have a death pecking order.
But back to the people who really matter. Oh dear – I don’t want a scoobie to die!
11 February 2015 at 04:03 #37932I’m pretty smashed. I don’t have any sensible words: just memories and images from The Body.
Mostly, telly gets death episodes wrong. The Death – dirty dark holes in the ground, cawing crows and scudding grey clouds -black clothed mourners -shiny funeral hearse.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
We never got to that -and as painful as it was, I’m glad that there was gravitas and horror blended into this soupcon of emotions. I watched it about 24 hours ago and spent all morning just thinking about it -recovering, really. I don’t think I’ve ever watched anything that comes this close to the real thing for me.
I remember, at seven, my father running to me and catching me in his arms and falling to the floor crying for his wife. That day was filled with images of quiet, small and worried people making me sandwiches and repeatedly explaining where my mother had gone. The funeral, when it happened, seemed like something normal, filled with reliquaries and rituals and thus had something concrete onto which I could hold.
I recall Boy Ilion mentioning the sickly colour palette when Buffy sat next to the Robot, April. Buffy was gentle and kind. But she looked green -that same palette, albeit whiter and brighter – was used when Buffy looked out her window before Giles arrived, breathless, to see the body.
I remember the angle used when Buffy, desperately listening, sees only the paramedic’s lips moving and resolutely tells Giles “not to touch the body.” At one point, I registered that neither Boy Ilion nor I were moving and hardly breathing. We could hear a pin drop. He was staring straight ahead and said, “Pause it.” He gingerly hopped off the bed, went into the ensuite, deliberately closed the door and threw up. After that episode he went to bed.
This was before Buffy did the same thing, covering up her coy, steaming trail with paper towels; every movement, dutiful, a grown up, but still a slip of a girl in blue jeans and unwashed stringy hair. A pretty, mostly positive girl with colourful blouses, who likes chocolate and silk scarves.
It seems to me that Buffy is now very alone. Spike’s pissed off for this episode (and rightly so), and in the previous one we see that Xander ‘shimming’ windows and nailing wood is now a ‘proper’ person, respectable, working for a home with Anya. Tara and Willow are together and yet Riley and Angel have all left, “as in left town, left”. Joyce Gone. Even Giles, restored to watcher, has a shop to manage. Everyone has their place but Buffy must watch over a sister who is a ‘key’ to a lock we know little about.
It’s as if Buffy’s getting smaller and smaller -not just physically, although we could suggest everyone else is disappearing and like bass reliefs on a medieval tower, her size is disproportionate – so she seems bigger now and therefore a considerable target. How can she be contained? Will her grief and subsequent fury boost her particular utility?
And who is Buffy really? How will these circumstances work through her bones like the ideas of “good men?”
Her mother’s words were, “What will I do without you?” What can Buffy do without Joyce? She may want to join her.
I’m frightened of that. I haven’t watched it since because it must percolate. That’s damn hard work.
But I love it.
(7.30??)
11 February 2015 at 13:34 #37939@purofilion
Brief, because on a deadline
And who is Buffy really?
And what? She is the Slayer, but she is a sister bound by a promise she made her now dead mother.
A good friend of mine uses the expression “Written from truth” and argues that all great writing is. I concur. The Body is without a question written from truth.
Buffy: Was it sudden?
Tara: No…yes…It’s always sudden.
I know that am not the only one for whom that simple exchange causes complete unspooling, still after all these years and reaction to it helps distinguish those who have been there from those who will be there. Barely 6 months after spending an eternity of three days in a room waiting for the breathing to stop. It’s always sudden.
Quite simply, one of the finest single episode of TV ever broadcast.
The payback for it is that you are about to see what, IMO, is perhaps the most brilliantly exposited metaphor in TV history.
11 February 2015 at 13:48 #37940@Purofilion @pedant
Completely agree about The Body. In some ways it’s almost unwatchable (I mean that as a compliment). As ever with Buffy the best bits are expressed in almost mundanely simple terms.
No…yes…It’s always sudden
Pedant: spending an eternity of three days in a room waiting for the breathing to stop. It’s always sudden.
That’s beautifully said also. When the breathing stops the world is irrevocably changed. The old world vanishes and you’re left in some strange new place. My condolences Mr P.
11 February 2015 at 15:25 #37945@purofilion, @pedant and @scaryb–
Yes, The Body is a brilliant, brutal, life-changing piece of TV and I wouldn’t be above arguing that it’s the single best piece of TV drama in a continuing series ever. It’s worth nothing that despite itself reaching moments of sublime near-genius, Six Feet Under never once captured the experience of bereavement or grief half as well as this.
And @purofilion, it’s probably the last thing you want to revisit at the moment, but The Body has a really excellent commentary by Joss that is spoiler-free and pretty illuminating about the episode.
Oh, and s5 blog will be up this weekend. Took a week off so you didn’t feel pressured into constant catch-up…..
11 February 2015 at 18:16 #37947@jimthefish, @scaryb @purofilion
A note on Emma Caulfield and Anya.
Every moment of Anya’s character development could have been designed to build up to this:
ANYA
But I don’t understand!Something in her tone stops Will, and as she continues, she breaks down more and more…
ANYA (cont’d)
I don’t understand how this all
happens, how we go through this,
I mean I knew her and then she’s,
there’s just a body, I don’t
understand why she just can’t get
back in it and not be dead, it’s
stupid, it’s mortal and stupid,
Xander’s crying and not talking and
I was having fruit punch and I
thought that Joyce would never have
any more fruit punch and she’d never
have eggs, or yawn, or brush her
hair, not ever and no one will explain…It is the birth of human Anya (rather than post-demon) and Caulfield delivers the in truly breathtaking style.
And the kicker was pushing away Xander’s attempt at comfort. So real.
(Going back to an earlier note about aspect ratios – when the paramedic is talking to her, viewed from behind, in the 4:3 version Buffy is completely squeezed into the top left corner of the screen. In the pan and scan 16:9 that imagine is nowhere near as clear)
@scaryb – thanks for the kind words.
11 February 2015 at 21:19 #37952@jimthefish -thank you for that- I simply couldn’t watch anymore even last night. The percolating took awhile! It is very fortunate that tomorrow I start leave and can do a Buffy watch including Joss’ commentary. What I like about his commentaries is that they’re measured, there’s no hysterical bantering nor does he pat himself on the back. Joss doesn’t seem to do the ‘here we have Anya doing…’ either. I’ve also been keeping up with Angel -which is quite wonderful and has totally found its niche.
It is awful isn’t it? Whether death be a surprise shock or in knowing the end is nigh -it is, as Tara put it -‘always sudden.’ I am also sorry for your loss – -but I understand you’re a private person.
Anya’s lines are definitely the best I’ve heard from her thus far. It’s like a sonnet in expression -she rolls out those feelings with exacting pressure of speech. We’re glued to her.
@scaryb it is in the mundane (as you said) that death becomes itself. And it is difficult to watch and I suppose it should be. I don’t know what I was expecting? But it wasn’t that. Yet, when it finished, I couldn’t see how it could be any other way. That’s the miracle of Whedon.
12 February 2015 at 09:03 #37959Death . . . Maybe it helps to be young, to feel it as such a sensual matter as expressed in this beautiful speech. I feel a death these days as a subtraction, an absence, a door firmly closed in my face. It wouldn’t occur to me that the dead person is now deprived of earthly delights, but more that we (the bereaved) are all deprived of the sharing of those delights and quotidian experiences with that particular person from now on. That person (most recently, my mother-in-law, whose deathbed I attended) has, as I perceive it, stepped into that other room that’s a mystery to us, the living. Her adventures continue — or they don’t. Mine do, but don’t have her in them any more. Sometimes it’s like going down stairs in bad lighting, and there’s a step missing: you lurch, grab the bannister, give the moment of breathless panic its due, and then continue your descent. Heavier, for a while.
TV fiction generally gets nowhere near this experience, partly because that heaviness, the lingering effects, would weigh the story down and drag it too far from successful “entertainment” norms. But I think we’re seeing an opening up of those norms a bit lately, maybe because our population is aging; so we get a spate of series about death (zombies, inexplicable returns, the destroyed lives of the parents of vanished children, struggles for immortality, documentaries about real deaths and illnesses, etc.).
Buffy was way ahead of its time with this; but then, some vampire stories have been ways of thinking out loud about death, loss, and immortality, I guess.
13 February 2015 at 21:51 #37992RL intervened and I got as far as the end of The Intervention: I don’t know what others think, but I thought it was beautiful, metaphorically.
Not knowing whether Buffy was Buffy -or her robot twin, at the end, was perfectly done and puts that question out there:
“who is Buffy and What is she, really?” But without actually stating, up front: “What is the most important question that must never be answered-type thing?” Not that I’m comparing this negatively to Who and that particular series with an arc so wonderfully done (I think Mat’s season beginning with The Eleventh Hour and finishing with The Time of the Doctor is absolutely the most meaningful to me and mine) but with Buffy, the questions are asked by the audience and answered in a variety of ways: metaphor, humour, slap-stick and more imagery: The Intervention struck me first as a filler; but of course, thinking about it later, it’s not that at all.
I haven’t counted the remaining eps but I think I have 3-4 left and I shall enjoy them whilst avoiding the S5 overview Jim’s written. It will be great to finish Buffy and then read your blog straightaway.
Admittedly, I have no real idea how the end will occur and just who will be left! I believe there will be a loss, greater-or equal to – Joyce: the First Slayer explains Buffy’s ‘gift’ is death and says “your question has been answered.” Oh dear!
“Death . . . Maybe it helps to be young, to feel it as such a sensual matter as expressed in this beautiful speech. I feel a death these days as a subtraction, an absence, a door firmly closed in my face. “ Well put, Ichabod: the idea of ‘drawing around the body’ as expressed by the art teacher was a lovely technique and highlights your own comments, that of a subtraction; a ‘missing’.
Regards, puro
PS: loved the camping gear: “a gourd, a book and a couple of twigs.”
13 February 2015 at 22:30 #37993@purofilion
There was an interesting and subtle tweak to the broadcast dialogue, vis a vis the shooting script
“And I’ll never forget it.” was changed to the simpler, and less loaded “I won’t forget”. I only ever noticed that on this rewatch and I think you will see what a subtle bit of craft that tweak was (although not just yet).
Well. Hello kitty.
One of my bucket list items is to hang out under a tree with a Cheetah called Tiddles
(Yes, I know, kitty was a mountain lion – probably not the same one that tried to eat Elisha Cuthbert when 24 was being filmed)
14 February 2015 at 05:42 #38000Thanks for kind words, puro.
14 February 2015 at 06:31 #3800114 February 2015 at 10:20 #38003@purofilion
My favourite scene in the entire series (that doesn’t involve Willow in leather)
14 February 2015 at 12:09 #38004Oh, mine too. I’m ashamed to say I pressed re-wind a lot. It’s the “empharsis” pure and simple.
That and the black pants -that Buffy wears – OK….maybe too much ‘like’ there, but I did notice the ‘serious’ Buffy in leather.
Truly, I didn’t pick Robot Buffy either -till the obvious. I should have: it was expressly placed in the basement for a reason.
Duh.
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