Blink – S29 (3) 10

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@rewvian   I think the Angels were (and are) the best Who monster ever.   And the Village of Angels episode was the best episode of Chibnall’s tenure.    As I said somewhere, I was quite apprehensive what he might do to Moff’s creation, but I think he treated them well, at least up to the end of that episode.   (I lied in my comment on ‘Utopia’, I’m not about to watch the final ep (6) of S13, but the penultimate one (5).   I started watching 5 very late and dozy last night and decided to postpone watching it till tonight, to do it justice.)

You have quite a way to go to reach the Chibnall years, but at the rate you’re romping through episodes it may not take you so long, at that.   I don’t know if you mentioned it, but how are you viewing them – online, or DVD sets?    I use DVD sets myself, they often have interesting extras on them, specially in the Moffat era.   Such as prequels and webisodes and the like.   I even made myself a spreadsheet of what was on each DVD, just so I could watch them in the correct sequence with the episodes.   (I found the list of episodes on Tardis.fandom.com, which gives the date of first screening, very useful in compiling my spreadsheet).

[Rewvian @rewvian]

@dentarthurdent Excellent question!  So back in 2010 I started getting the DVD sets for series 1-4 and the specials set.  I never got around to buying any of the Eleventh Doctor series, just because it was already quite expensive to buy British shows on DVD here in the US, and it took a little while for Matt Smith to grow on me.

I no longer own those DVDs, but I remember how cool the main TARDIS menus were, and how in season 4 or something the TARDIS was on fire.

(I actually watched Time Crash on Youtube recently, but I forget which special had the Doctor making music in the air or something.  I never saw the cartoons with the 10th Doctor.)

But now I’m watching the episodes through streaming.  Here in the US that means HBO Max.  I like it, and I hope HBO is smart enough to hold onto DW rather than let it go over to Disney +.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@rewvian    OK, I’ve never been a customer of a streaming service.   Partly because I’m always several years behind the current technology.   For example all my laptops have been second-hand IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads, at least three years old, at maybe a fifth the price of a brand new one (Thinkpads are almost indestructible.    They are eminently repairable and by the time they seriously break down they’re so old and obsolete as to be worth almost nothing and I’ve usually got two newer models anyway.   But I digress).   The other reason is, I think streaming is mostly via cable?   We only got fibre broadband a couple of years ago, so I’m not sure if streaming was ever an option before that.

Back to DVD’s – yes I agree DVD sets are often horribly expensive.   So again, I’m a cheapskate, I rarely buy the latest DVD’s, I either rent them (back in the day when video stores were a thing) or I wait a few months (or years) until they’re all over the second-hand market, or remaindered.   If I really want a newish one I check Trademe (in New Zealand) or Ebay.com.au or even Ebay.co.uk for the best prices.   That helps to keep my DVD habit reasonably affordable.

Matt Smith – yes, it took a while for him to grow on me, too.   At first sight he seemed awfully weak and undecided, and also too young, for half an episode anyway.    I liked Eleventh Hour much better on re-watching, knowing that his new-Doctor helplessness was going to wear off quite quickly.

 

[Rewvian @rewvian]

@dentarthurdent Streaming works much better in modern times.   Broadband, it should work just fine.  I use a wireless wi-fi connection for all of my Internet-connected devices.  Sometimes I watch the occasional episode on my phone.

From what I can tell the DVDs are much more reasonable in price nowadays than they were back when I bought them, at least the ones I owned before.  I saw people on Poshmark selling seasons 1-13 for under $70, but I did notice that doesn’t include Tennant’s specials from 2009 and 2010.  There may very well be other specials or Christmas episodes missing as well.

You know Smith did a pretty bang-up job when he stepped into the role.  I think he did a great job playing an old and brilliant mind in a youthful body.  I think it was hard to adjust coming off of Eccleston and Tennant, and the writing for the show certainly changed a lot with series 5.  I think Karen Gillan got me first as this fiery young woman who knew the Doctor all through her life, and somewhere along the way Smith really nailed it and knew the character of the Doctor inside and out.  I will miss the RTD years when I complete my rewatch of them, but I am looking forward to seeing how I feel about the Moffat years when I get to watch them again.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@rewvian   Smith was good.   I didn’t like him at first (too young) but within a couple of episodes I’d accepted him.   The flavour of the show did change with S5, of course the Moff took over as showrunner.    Karen Gillan was excellent as Amy.   In fact all the companions in the RTD and Moffat years were good; assertive young women who rarely took any nonsense from the Doctor.   I’ve always considered the Companion as important as the Doctor.   I liked them all  (except Donna.   Too shrill.   First impressions can count for a lot and unfortunately the first impression we got of Donna was when the Doctor was grieving the shocking loss of Rose, and Donna burst in haranguing him for causing something he was completely innocent of.   Donna wasn’t written as sympathetically as the other Companions).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Blink, The Doctor’s timeline.

Sally Sparrow gives The Doctor the Wester Drumlin file.

He either doesn’t read the file,

Or he does read it but goes to Wester Drumlins anyway to avoid a time paradox,

Or does, but goes there because the sun might (probably) get shut off,

Or does or doesn’t but The Tardis takes him and Martha there anyway, though he’s unaware, to avoid a time paradox, a sun shut off and maybe kick-start the digital media industry.

But, in any case, he doesn’t leave the file behind in the Tardis either, otherwise the sun (probably) gets shut off.

He gets scragged by an angel at Wester Drumlins and ends up in 69. Fortunately so does Martha, and by the same Angel, not the one who later got Kathy, who goes to 1920.

Then Billy Shipman also gets scragged by the 69 angel. He meets The Doctor and they develop digital recording media which will be compatible with Tardis console, and use Sally’s notes to film their ‘interview’ with Sally.

They don’t travel to find one of the other iterations of The Doctor in 1969, so that they avoid a time paradox, help Sally, and keep the sun going etc.

The Doctor tells Billy he has to stay behind in 69 to avoid a time paradox, but we suspect The Doctor also gave him digital media patents to make him rather richer than a policeman but, more importantly, so he’ll put Easter eggs on the dvds from Larry’s list of Sally’s films, probably in around 2000.

So, The Doctor and Martha retrieve The Tardis and carefully investigate disappearances at Wester Drumlins. Using what they learn, they go to some time in the past which seems to be pre angel, and become painters and decorators, leaving the message which prevents the angels from braining Sally, so the sun (probably) doesn’t get turned off and we used dvds for a while, after VHS but before streaming came along.

Simple (?)

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

second thoughts…

The sun shut off can only happen BECAUSE The Doctor is separated from The Tardis.

So. Either The Doctor didn’t read the file. Maybe it happened straight after the Lizard and long bow thing. Or… The Doctor had to risk the shut off to prevent the paradox. Or… the Tardis stitched him up for the same reason. That’s got to be worth a tinkle of The Cloister Bell.

On the other hand ‘Duck! Sally Sparrow’ is just boring old painting and decorating.

 

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u      I thought I had the timeline of Blink! straight in my mind, but now I’m not so sure.   I’m pretty sure the Doctor went to Wester Drumlins because it was dangerous and because he’s the Doctor.    Where he and Martha got zapped by an Angel, and the cops discovered the Tardis and towed it away.   (Maybe they thought it was one of theirs that had been stolen).

How did Sally know to go and see old Billy in hospital?   I’m sure it was covered but I can’t remember how.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Flustered hormonal Sally got a telephone call from older Billy, right after she left younger Billy safely next to the Tardis in the police pound, and some angels. I think.

Not sure how the angels then, and only then, moved the Tardis back to Wester Drumlins. Or why. I think Sally had the key. As we now know (but didn’t then) angels are multi skilled.

As I say, painting and decorating: easy.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u    Of course!   Billy got her phone number when he was young and cheeky.   Calling her ‘Gorgeous girl’ evidently worked.    As he said, “It was raining when I met you” and she said “It’s the same rain.”  (And she was quite literally correct).

For some reason I always choke up when I hear that line.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u      Just noticed your comment in the  ‘Sea Devils’ thread, re Larry and Sally.   I think their relationship was handled very well and subtly.   It was obvious they got on well together, there was a good chance they were a couple, but that’s all it needed.   I can quite happily imagine a romantic attraction there without needing it to be spelled out in words of one syllable.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent Agree the relationship is subtle. Much is left to the reader to construe which is pitch perfect.

@ps1l0v3y0u Maybe the Doctor and Martha followed the spawning critters to Western Drumlins and got zapped. He was still holding the file which he had not had time to read. Or he put the file in his bigger on the inside pockets and forgot about it until he was zapped into the past.

Moff’s time travel logic is just not that, logical but time paradoxes rarely are. The angel episodes remind me of Curse of Fatal Death where he first played with time paradoxes. I think Moffat just can not resist a time paradox, his favourite narrative toy.

cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb @dentarthurdent @ps1l0v3y0u

 I think Moffat just can not resist a time paradox, his favourite narrative toy.

I think what’s interesting about Moffat-era Who in this regard was the way he used time to drive the plot. Time became almost like another character in the story. Whereas in most Who stories, time was a narrative device to get the Doc and Companions to where they needed to be, so the story proper could then commence. There were exceptions to this of course, and I recall The Day of the Daleks (Doc 3) that had time paradoxes and many time-related shenanigans (good word shenanigans), as well of course the (in)famous Blinovitch Limitation Effect.

Chibnall in Once, Upon Time was a bit more literal, deciding to name a planet (character?) “Time”.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar   @janetteb    Acutely observed, Whohar.   Usually the Tardis has just been transport to where (or when!)  the story is going to happen.   It’s a lot simpler to write that way.   (More conventional stories occasionally have ‘flashbacks’ to show us what happened previously, but of course the characters in ‘then’ have no foreknowledge of what is going to happen ‘now’).

There is a fundamental incompatibility between possessing a time machine and linear storytelling.   Which is, if the hero walks into an ambush ‘now’, WHY doesn’t he just hop into his time machine and go back to yesterday and warn himself.   Of course this introduces a massive problem to do with causation and the nature of reality, which is why most writers tend to rule it out with ‘not crossing the timelines’ or such.   Only Moff has cared to tackle that head-on, sometimes by sweeping the paradox under the carpet.   I think he managed to adroitly avoid the paradox in Blink.

And he addressed the phenomenon of time dilation in a strong gravitational field head-on, in World Enough and Time.   I was baffled by the timeline at first, only on subsequent viewings did I realise it was accurate.   For that, I can almost forgive him the sight of Cybermen crashing through steel floors.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

if the hero walks into an ambush ‘now’, WHY doesn’t he just hop into his time machine and go back to yesterday and warn himself.

Classic Who had two main ways of dealing with this – the aforementioned Blinovich and also the fact that the Doc was not able to control the Tardis well enough to allow him to just go back a few hours and either warn himself or otherwise change his own history. In the modern era we now have the concept of fixed points in time. There are likely other “rules” like this that Who has devised, only to break when convenient. Or forget about.

There was a BBC television show first broadcast in the 1970s or 80s I believe, which dealt with the grandfather paradox, but I don’t believe this kind of thing happened in Classic Who all that much. There are more knowledgeable people on here who can perhaps fill in my knowledge gaps.

If you can find a copy of Day of the Daleks, Special Edition, I think it’s definitely worth a watch. As an aside it also had Ogrons in it, which I am surprised haven’t made a reappearance since the reboot.

time dilation in a strong gravitational field head-on, in World Enough and Time

Yes, that was excellent. IIRC it was Moffat’s son who informed him of the phenomenon, which allowed Moffat’s fiendish brain to include the Mondasian Cybermen in a 12th Doc story. Apparently, Moffat had asked Capaldi which Classic-era monster he’d like to see during his run. Capaldi said Mondasian Cybermen or Axons. Moffat (rightly) baulked at Axons, and WE&T was born.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @dentarthurdent @janetteb

Time paradoxes and how to avoid them.

Timelords are time sensitive… Girl who Died… ‘ripples not tidal waves.’ Obviously no one is going for the abandoned arc/plot seeding theory… but the implication is, this IS a tidal wave and The Doctor knows it. Therefor he’s there because the Tardis done it. Malfunctioning man in malfunctioning blue box. Talk to Jamie.

Also The Doctor CAN observe history and then change it… see Pyramids of Mars. Also, ‘we change history all the time.’ Not all history changes generate  paradox. Timo wimo.

But what about Let’s Kill Hitler? The Tesselector is essentially Bad Testimony. Are you going to extract my memories? No just torture you; you were going to die anyway. That’s not an evil plan at all. Or maybe a bit. But, does that mean River (and Rory) actually SAVED Hitler in ‘38? Maybe someone else was due to assassinate him on the same day. In other words, between them and Hitler’s cupboard, they caused at least THAT version of WWII. Not saying it wasn’t too late for some kind of mechanised bust up.

Blinovitch… used once only (?) in a story written in a hurry by Grimwade I think, and prior to Cartmel, so he maybe had more scope for invention. Bit duff.

The Trial of a Timlord is rife with paradox: in Vervoids, The Doctor is charged with a genocide he hasn’t yet committed.

Father’s Day: not my favourite ep, but Russ must have been happy. The Doctor tests crossing timelines essentially. Also Big Bang: I’m sure The Doctor in the Fez got very paradoxy (don’t ask me what exactly) but then it was a collapsing Universe. Well, it’s all going to have to come down anyway.

Sound of Drums: the Tardis BECOMES a paradox machine. Also why exactly was Yana doing what he did at the end of all things (again)? Russ JUST about got away with that.

The Tardis Done it… ‘I took you where you needed to be’ or the timelines are out of sync or something like that.

So either Sally only caught up with The Doctor in time for him to go to Wester Drumlins without having read the file. After that he CAN’T interfere because he hasn’t got a Tardis.

Or The Doctor realises he HAS to do it… to avoid a paradox? Or so that we have dvds??? Perhaps he reads the file, smacks his head, and says ‘that’s why the Tardis plays dvds rather than firesticks a streaming service!’ The dodgy implication being is he’s happy to risk Martha; he can’t be sure they’ll both end up 69. Maybe he could rescue her once he gets the Tardis back. Knowing what I know about his relationship with Martha, I’m not sure.

Or The Tardis done it? Presumably so we have dvds. The cloister bell doesn’t sound for someone like Martha.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar   World Enough and Time was a genius move from Moff as far as Cybermen went.  As far as I was concerned , the earliest Cybermen (way back in old Who) were the lamest most unconvincing monsters ever – all too painfully obviously just extras in suits.   It took Moff’s genius to turn that liability into a horrific ‘reality’ – that the earliest Cybermen *were* in fact just slightly modified people in suits.   Like, I guess that was implicit all along, but whether it was the build-up that Moff gave us, or whether the costumes in World Enough were subtly but significantly better, or a bit of both, I’m not sure.

There was a BBC comedy special which included Jonathan Pryce (as the Master) and Rowan Atkinson and Joanna Lumley (the first female Doctor?) that riffed on that going-back-and-change-things, as each one went back further than the other to ‘fix’ things.   Except that something went wrong for the Master each time and he had to come back the ‘long way round’.  Or something like that, I’m a bit hazy on the details.

I am absolutely sure, in NewWho, there was one occasion when the Doctor timed his arrival to within minutes if not seconds.   Presumably on that occasion the Tardis concurred.   But I can’t bring it to mind, not even which Doctor it was.

 

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