Rose

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar   @janetteb   I don’t find the doctor’s revival as a Rose lookalike creepy at all.   It might possibly be so if the Doctor had deliberately chosen that appearance.  But do we know how the regeneration process decides on the look of the next iteration?  Does it randomly fish something out of the subject’s subconscious?   The Moment chose a character from the Doctor’s timeline (got it back to front, of course).   Twelve came out looking like a significant figure from his past that he had failed to save.   Fourteen came out looking like Ten.   And of course the Zygons were impersonating other people wholesale.

I’m sure there have been other occasions in sci-fi/fantasy where some entity has chosen to manifest itself in a form that was ‘pleasing’ to the protagonist, though I can’t put my finger on any specific cases off the top of my head.

And I don’t think it muddies the waters in the broader Whoniverse, whatever that means.   I regard the TV series as canon, all the rest is derivative or symbiotic entities.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

Whether deliberate choice or subconscious, the fact remains that the Doc’s new regeneration is (possibly, we don’t know for sure) the face of an old companion. And one to whom he had romantic feelings. And it’s not even the same face. It’s an older version. I find it odd, and I really don’t like it. I understand that there are in-story precedents but, just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should do something.

I don’t think it muddies the waters in the broader Whoniverse, whatever that means.  I regard the TV series as canon, all the rest is derivative or symbiotic entities

I think the BBC / Bad Wolf have made a rod for their own back regarding keeping the show current. Let’s take the spinoff (whenever that airs) as an example. Are the BBC furiously editing (or even reshooting) that show (hence the delay) to remove any mention of 15 as the current Doc? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they don’t need to, I don’t know. The point is that they now have to consider how the wider Who-related stuff is going to be presented in light of the decision to have BP’s face and voice as the last thing transmitted on TV. This covers not only TV but things like merch and other media (e.g. books and audio). These are money spinners for the BBC and help keep the main show on air, so are important financially even if they are not considered crucial to the main narrative. Not having a current Doctor makes that more difficult. I know that much of the non-TV material uses previous incarnations, but this is the first time I can recall that we don’t know who the actor is playing the Doctor. Even during the gap, McCoy was still ostensibly in the role as 7. The whole thing feels like a misstep borne out of desperation.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar  I agree it is a move borne out of desperation hopefully not a misstep but that is perhaps my eternal optimism at play. fingers crossed it will be well handled if and when Who returns.

cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar    I don’t think it matters in the slightest that we don’t know who the ‘current’ Doctor is.   He’s a time traveller, can there even be said to be a ‘current’ Doctor?   As you said, the non-TV material is free to use any incarnation they wish.

Obviously, my viewpoint is totally different to yours.   But then, I was always an asynchronous Who fan, by which I mean I was watching the stories months or even years behind the current latest.   Doesn’t matter.   It might matter if they’re out of sequence, but Who was never a current-events show.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @whohar @janetteb

RTD2: we seem to be mid arc. Lots unresolved. The Disney money flushed away. The Susan tease…

Would Russ rather have Gatwa still in harness? Yes, the adjustment to Reality War seemed rushed. But Russ effectively shrugged his shoulders at Ecclestone’s departure. And even the most generous Gatwa fans must admit his tenure was… uneven. Some sparkly gems, some tumbleweed moments.

I have still no objection to Billie whatsoever. I don’t really understand the furore… beyond understandable questions about direction, The Disney brief, and the quite unsatisfactory season ends (though Reality war was poignant). It’s unfair to say the least to dump all that on Billie Piper. And oh she’s older! Tut, the shelf life of the female tv personality…

So, Billie may or may not be a rushed replacement. Almost certainly not. Ecclestone’s own statement re her appearance may not be a rec so much as a nod. He knew. She was on the way sooner or later, the arc mapped out long since, not least because 14 is still slumming it in Chiswick, the implications of the bigeneration not yet resolved.

And you know my thoughts about all things V including Virtual Reality.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u   Well I’m perfectly happy at the prospect of a Billie Doc.   And, as you say, she’s older – which is a good thing in my estimation.   A bit of maturity helps to enhance the Doctor’s credibility, as far as I’m concerned.  20-something Billie was great as Rose.   I think she would have been much too young to be the Doctor at that age.

But we shall see.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

And oh she’s older! Tut, the shelf life of the female tv personality…

You’ve misunderstood my comment. I wasn’t commenting on BP’s age. As I’ve said elsewhere, she is a fine actor. And yes, she would probably do a great job as the Doc.

But, for the same reason I wasn’t a fan of Tennant coming back (and to a lesser extent RTD), I’m not a fan of this new direction.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

I am teasing.

‘Reusing’ faces, maybe it’s a phase Time Lords go through. 12 postulated there was a reason. Doesn’t really retcon for 6. 14 seems to indicate there is something wrong with that regeneration and 10: the metacrisis ‘human’ doc, a bit feisty, fond of the face in the mirror… though there’s always room for a small girl with a red balloon. The face that Rose loved.

So, assuming the show does come back, does that mean we know where it’s going. If I were Russ I’d be banking some footage of key people.

[nerys @nerys]

@dentarthurdent Twelve came out looking like a significant figure from his past that he had failed to save.

But, didn’t the Doctor save him? For me, that was what was so poignant about Twelve choosing that face. Donna’s tearful pleading with the Doctor got him to save Caecilius and his family. I always thought he chose that face as a reminder of his alien nature, and that he needs a human companion to stop him when he’s about to do the wrong thing.

(Speaking of faces turning up later, I’d forgotten that Karen Gillan played the soothsayer in “Fires of Pompei.”)

[WhoHar @whohar]

@nerys

Speaking of faces turning up later, I’d forgotten that Karen Gillan played the soothsayer in “Fires of Pompei.”

And Freema Agyeman, who was in the Torchwood team in Doomsday. This was later explained as her character being Martha’s cousin.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

So, assuming the show does come back, does that mean we know where it’s going. If I were Russ I’d be banking some footage of key people.

I think the BP reveal is a kind of placeholder while the BBC/BW negotiate with Disney / AN Other partner.

Once that’s sorted then they will decide on the creative side of the show, and what BPs role in it will be. I don’t think they know yet – she could feasibly disappear almost immediately and be replaced by the long-term solution, or she might be the long term solution.

In the meantime…crickets. No date for the spinoff, no date for the next season, no discussions on whether the show is in hiatus, no casting announcements for e.g. companions etc.

And all this stems from Gatwa’s decision to leave the show early, which stems from RTD pushing for Gatwa as the lead, which stems from the BBC asking RTD back to fix the show, which stems from Chibnall’s dire run. Thanks Chris.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

That sequence is good. I would insert…

Gatwa’s decision to leave was because of an unhappy combination of streaming partner demands and show runner hubris. Also lack of time for writing because in-show development had been trashed by the previous showrunner’s wilful vandalism, which was forced the BBC’s need to take control of show content, in turn caused by a combination of criticism of The Corporation AND the prior showrunner’s hubris.

Placeholder or not, Gatwa stays or not, BP was probably inevitable once the bigeneration was introduced.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys   You’re probably right about the Doctor saving Caecilius.   My memory of that episode isn’t precise.   It was not a terribly convincing reason, but I suppose Moff needed something to explain why Capaldi reappeared.

I don’t think Karen Gillan’s reappearance was ever ‘explained’, though.

Freema Agyeman’s cousin was in UNIT (?) in ?Doomsday, if I recall correctly.

Are there any other minor characters who later took prominent roles and had to be ‘explained’ away?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @nerys

An Android Princess became Romana 2.

Lots of reoccurring thesps in less prominent but varied roles…

The War Lord and Solon

Poule and Mawdryn

David Troughton got in a few times.

 

As for 12’s face… it’s specifically to do with Ashildr, who he recognises, and acts so weirdly around that Clara calls him out. And in the middle of a ridiculous  set of coincidences too! Not least being that there’s no way he should know he has to save Ashildr… he certainly didn’t want to be around Vikings.

Perhaps the Time Lords tipped him off when they supposedly gave him a new set of regenerations, which turned out to be a red herring, so what was it came through the crack of doom? Apart from Dalek destroying glowy stuff.

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