Rose

[Missy @missy]

@nearlysane

I don’t know what TGTFTE is? Sorry, never very good at just initials.

Rose is my favourite companion, followed closely by Bill and Donna. I do agree about Mickey though, but he wasn’t that bad. Strangely, he did have a plastic look about him. *grins*

Missy

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Here’s a trailer for tonight’s global watch-along. On Twitter: #TripofaLifetime

[Craig @craig Emperor]

And here is Russell T Davies prequel to “Rose”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/doctorwho/entries/4acfd237-6eee-47b5-93bd-1c16cd065614

Tune in on your favourite streaming service at 7pm for the episode.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

I love that, even though it’s not on TV, the original TV announcer is doing idents – because, why not?

[Craig @craig Emperor]

And, as we were promised. A sequel.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

That sequel was fab, wasn’t it. It can never be stressed too many times that RTD is just an absolutely cracking writer. In fact, all the related content around this one was great. And was it just me but was it also subtly recontextualising The Timeless Children slightly?

I can’t remember commenting on Rose last time around, so apologies for any repetition. Firstly, I’ve been seeing people online talking about how ‘dated’ it is and it is incredible to think that this is 15 years!! ago. But to be honest, I didn’t think it felt all that dated. Even watching it this time around, it had an exuberance and a freshness to it. Almost a sort of 70s ITC Randall and Hopkirk-ey sort of vibe that works now and probably worked just as well back then. Interesting how Murray Gold’s music has changed over the years too. It’s more rambunctious here, maybe less lush than it becomes later but that’s probably as much to do with the show’s narrative evolution as much as anything else.

On which note, aren’t those opening titles glorious? Probably still the best iteration from Nu Who for my money.

It’s really Billie Piper who carries this story though, isn’t it? And it’s easy to forget just how much of a risk her casting was back in the day; just how much sneering there was around it. And she’s great from her first scene. And I’m not sure it’s until 12 and Bill that we see a companion and Doc click quite so immediately as 9 and Rose do here. (Amy and 11 don’t count imo because there is the slight ‘cheat’ of Young Amelia doing some of the bonding in that relationship).

It’s been a while since I’ve watched 9 and I think my estimation has gone up a little. I think Chris Eccleston is a fantastic actor but that he’s not a natural fit for the Doctor. But he does bring gravitas to the part: it’s just in the lighter moments he feels a little forced. Though I think part of my problem with him is that his costume is just not quite Doctorly enough. He obviously wasn’t going to be a McGann-style flamboyant and I like the leather jacket/jeans thing but I just feel there should have been more flourishes of the kind that we saw in The War Doctor’s costume. But looking back now, I do wish that he’d stayed for a second series. I think narratively speaking Doomsday would have worked better with 9 rather than a 10 who had just bedded in.

The sheer whackiness of this story can seem surprising looking back too. It’s easy to forget that the first half of s1 does tend far more towards this whackiness and it’s not until the halfway point of Dalek and The Empty Child that the more serious tone starts to take hold. Part of this will just be everyone finding their feet, still figuring out what sort of show they’re making. And part of it, I guess, is just an initial fanboy squee among the writers that they’re finally actually writing proper telly Doctor Who again.

But the Autons totally fit that tone and they’re actually the perfect BG Who monsters to choose. Not too heavyweight like the Daleks or the Cybermen, but still with a sense of genuine threat, a low-level familiarity for fans but also with that hint of the absurd. And tonally RTD gets them absolutely right too. The burping wheelie bin might have upset some diehards but it has the same absurdity as the killer doll or the suffocating armchair from Terror of the Autons. I have no doubt that both Robert Holmes and Terrance Dicks would have approved.

Pacing wise, it’s a bit halting. The Doctor, Rose and Mickey spend an awful lot of time hanging about at the denouement and that 10 minutes with Rose and Clive does feel a bit draggy now but the sheer amount of pyrotechnics and action it contains is quite startling really. Even the later finales didn’t seem to have quite as many explosions and physical action from the regulars as this has. But I guess this episode very much has to be statement of intent. And boy, did it bloody work.

In short, I really enjoyed that. Russell’s Twitter commentary was quite entertaining and the prequel/sequels were great too. Now, bring on Vincent and the Doctor.

[winston @winston]

Rose was my introduction to a show that is now part of my life in weird and wonderful ways and I still love it. It was 2005 and the CBC in Canada was advertising the return of Doctor Who playing on their network. I saw Christopher Eccleston  and remembered him from Second Coming and so decided to watch it. I was not a fan of the BG  Who because I rarely saw it and never in any kind of order but because Chris was in it I gave it a go and after Rose was over I was hooked.

Within minutes we know so much about Rose, she is an ordinary girl who lives with her Mum and works in a shop. She meets her boyfriend for lunch and can’t wait for her work day to be over just like everyone else. Her ordinary life is changed by the lottery, she doesn’t win it she just has to give Wilson the money.Then the manikins start to move and Rose is in danger. We get to meet The Doctor the same time she does and his first word”Run!” still gives me happy chills. I have been running with the Doctor ever since. Thank you RTD.

Billie Piper is Rose and I can’t imagine anyone else in the role. The rest of the cast is great and I came to really like Jackie and Mickey and I consider them both honorary companions. I watched one episode of a new show and I was an instant fan and I have come to appreciate the brilliance of the idea of the Doctor the more I watch and learn. Rose was an excellent introduction to new Who and I enjoyed watching it again.

[Nightingale @nightingale]

@jimthefish

But he does bring gravitas to the part: it’s just in the lighter moments he feels a little forced. Though I think part of my problem with him is that his costume is just not quite Doctorly enough.

I actually liked the costume more than I did the actor, who remains my least favourite Doctor. I was quite excited by the billboards I saw (first I knew that it was coming back) but I didn’t make it past the second episode of the reboot. I was very glad to hear that Tenant was taking over, who I’d seen in Casanova and thought a much more natural fit for the show.

The burping wheelie bin might have upset some diehards but it has the same absurdity as the killer doll or the suffocating armchair from Terror of the Autons. I have no doubt that both Robert Holmes and Terrance Dicks would have approved.

I’m not so sure. The killer doll provoked a lot of complaints at the time for making children scared of their own toys. The armchair didn’t work, but there was no hint of tongue in cheek about it. It was a noble failure. The wheelie bins were stupid and meant to be, giving the sense of a showrunner who didn’t take his charge sufficiently seriously, a feeling that would persist throughout that first series.

While I felt that the autons (my favourite Who baddies) were rather squandered in Rose, and the intentional silliness difficult to swallow, Davies got companions. He understood their relationship to the audience in a way Moffat never really did, and Rose exudes this. It properly embedded me in the story. And Billie Piper was just incredible.

[nerys @nerys]

My husband, who is nine years younger, is the original Doctor Who fan in our family. He started watching as a young’un during the Tom Baker years. So he was quite excited when he found out about the reboot. I had a sort of “meh” attitude about the whole thing, but agreed to watch “Rose” with him. And I found myself completely drawn in. I loved Chris Eccleston’s Doctor. His wit and whimsy, contrasted with his occasional turning inward to somewhere dark, enthralled me.

I also liked Billie Piper’s Rose and her relationship with Eccleston’s Doctor throughout that first season. “Everybody lives, Rose!” is one of my favourite Doctor Who moments. As time went on, I liked Rose less … but not enough to completely dislike her. (I think it was the relentless emphasis on a romantic undercurrent between Rose and David Tennant’s Doctor that wore me out.)

But certainly, this first episode turned me into a Doctor Who fan.

It was much the same as James Bond … though I’d actually seen a few James Bond films prior to Daniel Craig. The only Bond films I genuinely liked before that were For Your Eyes Only and The Living Daylights. But ever since Craig signed on, I have been a fan.

[winston @winston]

@nerys  I agree with you on Chris Ecclestons Doctor, he was really great in the role.  I also found him funny and heartbreaking at times. He and Billie seemed to fit together by the end of this episode and I wanted to see where or when they were going next. He adds a seriousness to the role that fits a man who just destroyed his planet and is all alone.Billie Piper on the other hand as Rose is young, with all the fun and foibles that come with youth.

The Empty Child is one of my favourites and his “Everybody lives, Rose! “is one of the most feel good moments of Who.When he is angry it is terrible, in the episode with the Dalek chained up he lets us know pretty quickly that the Dalek was a threat even if it looked silly. He was so angry and so tough but he was terrified, if the Doctor is that scared then the Daleks must be pretty scary.

[janetteB @janetteb]

Currently watching and posting as I go, (was making notes on paper thought I might as well just type them in.
Some some notes,
Mannequin is a lovely nod back to the junk yard in An Unearthly Child. RTD obviously thought that a missed opportunity too.
Rose blames what is happening on some random person, “derek is that you”. Donna blames her abduction on Nerris.
Ecclesston is good at doing the “I am the smart one.”
Why does Rose take the arm home? Walking through London carrying a plastic arm is not a normal thing to do.
you lot all you do is eat chips… One of the central motifs of the Rose series.
The Police Box the thrill of seeing that again after years of Who deprivation. Watching this again I remember the thrill that gave me fifteen years ago. The speech that follows, playing to Ecclesstone’s strength as an actor. Fifteen years ago this was the moment that I realised that Dr Who was back, new and better than ever.
Clive, so nice to see a Fan on the show. Photoshop is a bit dodgy however.
The bin, and Rubbish bin Mickey. R.2 comments, “it’s good to see that the effects haven’t changed in fifteen Years.” Rose doesn’t notice that Mickey is plastic and no longer knows how to drive. She clearly never paid much attention to Mickey. Surely she twigs when he calls her “sweetheart”. That is pure plastic
Eating at a restaurant. I remember those days.
The doctor does not even think about Mickey being dead. Very Doctor.
“Lots of planets have a North.” Love that line.
Anti Plastic. I think that has just been invented.
Lots of running. Love the night shots of London. Might be many years, if ever, before I return. When I first watched this London was about a week away. We were just about to head overseas, taking the boys to see the world.
Under the Eye reminds me of the Christmas Invasion. Shopping Centres, I remember them. Well if the Nestene come to life now they will have a lot less victims. They can rampage through the locked up shopping arcades to their hearts content.
I had completely forgotten most of this episode. It musts be years since I last re-watched it.
Poor Mickey. I do wish he had gone with Rose there.

Hope this works as I managed to delete what I was typing but luckily had copied onto a Word document.

All three sons walked through as we were watching and all three remarked, “I need to watch Dr Who again.” I think that really says it all for this episode.

[janetteB @janetteb]

Ok so my paragraph breaks got lost in translation but at least I did not have to start again from scratch.

A few more thoughts on Rose. When it first aired I had read that Dr Who was returning with a sinking feeling. After the Canadian film fiasco I had negative expectations. I was not even intending to watch it until I read the review. (It was days before it aired in Australia.) We would have watched it when it aired on ABC on the television in the living room, over dinner. (We did not have a dining table then or the room for one even.) It was an exciting time for us, we were about to take the boys overseas for a big adventure and the S/O had just been offered a one year attachment to Sweden the following year and then my favourite TV Series was reborn. Watching this again reminds me of that magical time.

I did not grow up watching Dr Who. I was about fifteen or sixteen when I first discovered it and then only watched for a few years until leaving home age 19 but it has a place in my heart no other tv series does. I am deeply grateful to RTD for re inventing Dr Who and to all those who have carried the torch over the past fifteen years.\

cheers

Janette

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@nightingale

The killer doll provoked a lot of complaints at the time for making children scared of their own toys.

Yes, it did, but all that really suggests is that people were just as idiotic in 1973 as they are now. And while Robert Holmes definitely had ‘scaring the little buggers’ in his sights as part of his remit, I don’t think he wasn’t considering doing it in a tongue-in-cheek way.

The armchair didn’t work, but there was no hint of tongue in cheek about it.

I think it’s totally tongue in cheek and the cast and crew know it. It’s in everything from the twinkle in Delgado’s eye to the rather arch death performance of Harry Towb. The entire series is pretty tongue in cheek and I think you really only have to compare it to his sister serial to see that. In the first few episodes, RTD is definitely still calibrating the tone but I don’t think he was wrong to think that absurdity and humour are just as much a part of Who’s DNA as scares are.

Not sure that the Autons were wasted myself. They were in fact perfectly chosen. All you need to know is ‘alien’, ‘malevolent’, ‘plastic’ and so you don’t have to squander loads of time on backstory, exposition and motivation, leaving space for the important character stuff that’s needed in a new era episode, especially this one. It’s the same reason why Prisoner Zero is so sketchy (all you need to know is ‘alien convict’) or that Deep Breath riffed off The Girl in the Fireplace for its antagonist.

He understood their relationship to the audience in a way Moffat never really did, and Rose exudes this

I’m not sure I agree with this, although I do agree that Billie Piper was just terrific as Rose. But I think Moffat’s grasp on the companion dynamic was just as strong as RTD’s, possibly more so. After Rose, RTD pretty much dropped the ball with Martha, remaining too fixated on Rose. He just wasn’t interested enough in her. Donna was in improvement but a big part of that was down to Catherine Tate’s performance. After that, he gave up on companions altogether. Moffat’s companions were all pretty strong, I’d argue, with the only wobble really being the ‘Impossible Girl’ arc of early Clara. But aside from that, Amy, late Clara and Bill (and even a few one-offs like Sally Sparrow and Shona) show that Moff had a definite gift for companions, I reckon.

[Nightingale @nightingale]

@jimthefish

Yes, it did, but all that really suggests is that people were just as idiotic in 1973 as they are now.

Crikey! That’s harsh. I don’t think intelligence has anything to do with it, rather prior experience. The Pertwee era was known for pushing boundaries. A natural consequence is that the boundaries then lie well within those of today. The bar must be set higher to yield a similar effect.

I don’t think he was wrong to think that absurdity and humour are just as much a part of Who’s DNA as scares are.

Nor would I, but that wasn’t my complaint. Absurdity and humour are essential. Treating a beloved vehicle as a joke, less so. S1 veered to much toward the latter for my taste.

Donna was in improvement but a big part of that was down to Catherine Tate’s performance.

I would have preferred a better actor in the role. I agree that Martha was a bit too wet, although she started off well before the misjudged unrequited love arc. Donna was a great companion: a proper audience proxy with zero hint of nausea-inducing will-they-won’t-they.

My problem with Moffat companions is, however great they are on paper, he always made them part of the plot rather than the viewer’s avatar. I could be Rose or Donna, at least early on before they too became walking plot devices, whereas Amy and Clara were mysteries to be solved. Bill was better, and had a similar arc to Rose and Donna: initially just someone ordinary we could all be before becoming too abstract to identify with anymore. Easily my favourite companion since Rose.

[Missy @missy]

I have always preferred Rose to the rest of them and then Bill came along. Now they are equal in my eyes.

Martha gave me the pip, Amy got on my nerves after a while as did Rory, Clara was bit full of herself at times, but I

liked her most of the time and Donna was a treat to behold.

Bill was a breath of fresh air. Some of the lines Moffat gave her were inspired. For instance, when asked in the Pilot why she came to his lectures and heard her explanation:

DOCTOR: And how does that in any way explain why you keep coming to my lectures?
BILL: Yeah, it doesn’t really, does it? I was hoping something would develop. 

and when telling the Doctor about the ‘puddle’

DOCTOR: What’s wrong?
(A little later.)
BILL: She said it was a defect, but what kind of defect puts a star in your eye? But that doesn’t even matter because she was right. There was something wrong when you looked in the puddle. That was definitely my face. I see my face all the time. I’ve never liked it, it’s all over the place. It’s always doing expressions when I’m trying to be enigmatic. I know my face, and there was something wrong with my face in the puddle. What could be wrong with your own face?

That’s only a couple.

Missy

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@nightingale

Crikey! That’s harsh

Yeah, it was a bit. In my defence, it seemed funnier in my head. And I definitely agree with your point that it was perhaps easier to shock in those days. Not sure I’d agree that the Pertwee era deliberately set out to push boundaries. It wasn’t afraid of injecting political ideas into Who, certainly and there were topics that Letts wanted to discuss but I’d also say he had a pretty good barometer of tone and decorum and that he didn’t deliberately set out to shock in the way that Hinchcliffe/Holmes and JNT/Saward did.

Treating a beloved vehicle as a joke, less so. S1 veered to much toward the latter for my taste.

Which is totally fair enough. And I’d agree that the first three or four episodes are tonally inconsistent. But it’s by no means the most egregious example. I find s17 all over the place, for example, and far less to my taste than Series 1 of Nu Who. (If there’s ever been a seriously overrated Who story then it’s City of Death imo.) And I’m inclined to give s1 a bit of a free pass as it probably took the production team a while to figure out where Who was going to fit in the 2005 media landscape.

I would have preferred a better actor in the role

Again, it’s subjective I suppose but I struggle to see how Tate (or anyone) else could have been better in the role. I do sometimes feel that Tate gets looked down a little by fandom because she was so popular as a comedian but she’s a proper actor and an alumni of the Central School and the RSC.

a proper audience proxy with zero hint of nausea-inducing will-they-won’t-they

I think in this day and age we probably have to accept that the Doctor is as much a romantic/sexual being as any other dramatic character (which is why River is such a good and necessary character — having the Doc married off takes a bit of that immediate heat away. Although it seems to have returned with a vengeance with all the Thasmins of the Chibnall era.) With Martha, I’m not sure the unrequited love angle was really the problem — beyond the fact it showed that RTD had become overly infatuated with the character of Rose. The problem was that he didn’t take the time to not make it the only aspect of her character. Agyeman did great work but I’d argue that she wasn’t given half enough to work with as Piper was.

My problem with Moffat companions is, however great they are on paper, he always made them part of the plot rather than the viewer’s avatar

That’s a common criticism but I always feel it needs a bit of qualification. Yes, the companion is the viewer’s avatar but I’m not sure that’s all they have to be (or can be). They can’t be too passive either and they have to have an arc (some of those arcs both in RTD and SM were a little grandiose admittedly). It was a different case when the show was more serialised, when the real narrative was that of whatever serial the main characters had been injected into — that the story arc was that of Marco Polo, or the inhabitants of the Moonbase, or of Jago and Litefoot, to use random examples. Now the focus is far more on the Doctor and the companions and because it’s a cosmic and fantastical show, then their arcs have to be to an extent cosmic and fantastical (which, in the end, even Bill’s was).

Amy and Clara were mysteries to be solved

Again, I’d argue that it’s easy to overstate this. Amy wasn’t really a mystery to be solved. We knew everything we needed to know about her right from the Eleventh Hour. Again, yes, her endpoint is slightly cosmic in that she’s River’s mother and maybe her career as a model is less than relatable (but still not the most outlandish career a companion has ever had) but she’s essentially the same girl from Ledworth with her Raggedy Doctor that she always was.

It’s definitely more of an issue for Clara but I’d say only between The Snowmen and Name of the Doctor, which isn’t that long really. SM had kind of painted himself into a corner character-wise there but I’d argue it was necessary for the very clear endgame that he had in mind there. And I’d also argue that the Clara we get with Capaldi has freed herself from the Impossible Girl schtick and is a pretty strong and memorable companion in her own right. Again, it’s all very subjective, but I think both she and Amy are still highly relatable. Being ‘ordinary’ isn’t necessarily the key, I’d argue. The Fam are all very ordinary and all have very clearly defined backstories but I don’t really consider them terribly relatable, largely because they’re all so terribly boring.

[Nightingale @nightingale]

@jimthefish

Late night greetings!

Not sure I’d agree that the Pertwee era deliberately set out to push boundaries.

Well it certainly pushed the boundaries of acceptability. I cannot now recall whether it was Spearhead From Space or Terror of the Autons that had the blood-splattered windscreen that sent people into a frenzy. All tame now, but started the whole “Think of the children!!!” fiasco that surrounded DW through to the ’80s, Mary Whitehouse et al.

Again, it’s subjective I suppose but I struggle to see how Tate (or anyone) else could have been better in the role.

Yeah, it’s subjective. I never watched her show (I’m not much of a telly addict) and had nothing against her. I think if anyone was likely not to get a fair shout as a companion it was Bradley Walsh, but I liked him in his first season. Tate is like nails on a chalkboard to me though. Too much of a caricature.

Amy wasn’t really a mystery to be solved. We knew everything we needed to know about her right from the Eleventh Hour.

In retrospect there wasn’t much to solve, but Moffat pushed her mythologisation (maybe not a word, but it’s late) extremely far for a long time. That seems to be a thing with him in particular but also the reboot in general (Bad Wolf, Doctor Donna…). The whole “girl who waited” thing, this need to make every principle character uber-special, left me cold for the most part. I also never thought KG very good.

Similar thing with Clara, who seemed a symptom of excessive coffee consumption. I agree Moffat tried to do something better with her later on, but it was somewhat too late to invest in for a lot of people. I feel bad for JC: she got a lot of criticism for stuff that was never her fault. She seemed a capable actor to me.

The Fam are all very ordinary and all have very clearly defined backstories but I don’t really consider them terribly relatable, largely because they’re all so terribly boring.

The fam is sort of the anti-RTD approach. Token investment in establishing rapport. This has been the problem with Mr. Chibnall’s writing for me.

[AmeliaG @ameliag]

Every time i watch Rose, it makes me happy. The return of the show that i grew up on in the 80s that had me hiding behind the sofa! I loved the introduction of Rose and CEs Doctor. Both fantastic! Mickey the wimpy boyfriend and Jackie the chavvy mum were both likeable. And the autons brilliant. Loved Clive too. A great start to the comback 😍

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Rose was the first Doctor Who episode I’d watched for three decades. I seem to recall grumbles at the time, about casting a teen pop singer, but IMO Billie Piper is a good actress and the camera just loves her. I think Eccleston and Piper share the credit for the revived ‘Who’ taking off (along with competent scripts and adequate special effects).

I also remember grumbles about the close personal relationship between the Doc and companion which apparently was a deviation from ‘classic Who’, but having watched the last three stories of Seven and Ace, there’s definitely chemistry between Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred, so even classic Who was heading that way.

IMO, of course.

[winston @winston]

@ameliag  I totally agree with you, Rose always makes me happy and I have watched it a lot. The opening montage that introduces us to Rose, Mickey and Jackie is a great scene that lets us know so much about Roses life. I was hooked when I first watched it in 2005 and I still am.

Welcome to the site and if you love Who then you will enjoy reading through the forums on almost every episode of new Who and a few old Who episodes. Have fun!

@dentarthurdent  I didn’t often  watch  BG Doctor Who growing up because it rarely played here in Canada in any consistent way and usually in the wee hours. When they advertised the new show here I decided to watch because of Chris Eccleston who I had seen in “The Second Coming” and really liked. I wondered how such an intense actor would play the Doctor so I decided to watch Rose and I have never stopped watching. Billie Piper was unknown to me and I thought she was perfect right away. When the Doctor says “Run!” for the first time I was a Whovian on the spot.

Now I am going to watch it again.

Stay Safe.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston   I didn’t watch much BG (Before Gap ?)  Doctor Who either.   I think I caught the first ever ep, became a minor fan of Patrick Troughton, then sort of lost track.   When it revived with ‘Rose’, I started watching again, until the gaps at the end of Tennnant’s era broke the continuity.    Also, we’d lost Billie Piper.  I liked Martha, didn’t like Donna – too strident (nothing against the actress, just the way she was written).   I have to say, every time Billie appears in a cameo (such as The Moment) I get a little happy feeling.

(I’m moving the rest of my comment to On The Sofa because it seems to fit better there)

 

 

 

 

 

[AmeliaG @ameliag]

<p style=”text-align: left;”> @winston Thank you! Its great to be here. I will definitely be reading through all the comments on all episodes, including the classic ones! Ive watched from Hartnell to Pertwee so far in order (and some Tom Baker on dvd and britbox, and remember Colin Baker and McCoy. I have alot to catch up on!</p>

[Rewvian @rewvian]

So I just got HBO Max, and sat down to watch the first episode of the rebooted series for the first time in ages.  First of all it felt great to enjoy some Doctor Who again after all of this time, and there was quite a lot I didn’t remember from “Rose”.

To begin with, I think RTD did a fantastic job of centering this episode around the life of Rose Tyler, and giving us a glimpse into her world.  We’re seeing the Doctor come back after some time, yes, but foremost this episode plunges us into Rose’s world.  It is appropriate that the episode was named for her.

Mickey comes off as mostly likable in the episode, offering to take Rose out for a drink after her work is blown up and being concerned about her.  And then he makes that comment about her doing anything to get into the bedroom and about staying away from his emails, which foreshadows that he might be on a different wavelength from Rose.  Rose’s mom kicks off the tradition of the new series involving family of the companions getting some screen time, and it’s funny and hard to shake the moment when she comes onto the Doctor while she thinks he is at her home to inquire about the explosion with Rose.

The Autons made a nice neutral enemy choice for the premiere episode, and an especially creepy one.  Having Rose work at a clothing store made them weave into the plot nicely as menacing mannequins.  The moment when Rose becomes trapped in the basement room with a gathering of Autons really did elevate the suspense.  The Nestine Consciousness is, of course, the real villain of the episode and the thing controlling the Autons, basically a pile of molten plastic in an underground vat.  Having it use the large ferris wheel to broadcast to the Autons felt like a stand-out British moment of the episode.

I forgot all about Mickey confronting the moving trash can, only to have it stick to his fingers and gobble him up.  And it goes without saying that I’d forgotten all about the rather hilarious “Plastic Mickey”.  Also gone from my memory was Clive, the conspiracy theorist who Rose reaches out to on the computer in an attempt to learn more about the Doctor.  Clive and his research of the Doctor being present at the Kennedy assassination, the Titanic and several other places was a stand-out moment for the episode.  It makes it all the sadder that Clive is a victim of the Doctor’s return later in the episode while shopping at the mall with his family.

While we’re at it I guess I could take a really good guess and say the Doctor regenerated into his Christopher Eccleston form shortly before the episode, or at least recently enough that he hadn’t really seen his face yet, as he comments on his ears while at Rose Tyler’s home.  If I had to guess I’d say that the Doctor regenerated from the War Doctor and went immediately to Kennedy and the Titanic within a few days of that event, before coming to present time where he was dealing with the Autons.  At least that is what would make sense given those plot points.

Rose ultimately makes good on helping the Doctor defeat the two Autons holding him, with a little help from gymnastics experience.  Despite the Doctor’s diplomatic approach to getting the Nestine Consciousness to leave, the end result is still killing it with the anti-plastic, and no tears are really shed nor should they really be since the Autons pretty much went on a killing-spree outside of the mall.

At that fateful moment at the end of the episode Rose is given the option to tag along with the Doctor…and she refuses, noting that she has to help her mom and Mickey.  The Doctor leaves.  I have to say, it irritates me that this was her answer, because it’s not like she couldn’t just say, “Let me clean up from the excitement from tonight and then I’ll go with you!”  You’re talking to someone with all the time in the Universe, it’s not like they can’t just hop in their TARDIS and meet you in a day or two when the timing is better for you.  Fortunately the Doctor comes back and reminds Rose that he can travel not just in space, but also in time, which I guess she must have forgotten about or else needed more pestering about it to push her to say yes.

All in all, it was a pretty great episode.  Not all of the Doctor’s companions get this kind of in-depth treatment like Rose and Amy, so whenever the opportunity comes along for the show to really invite us into the world of one of the companions it is a special treat.

Well, I am not sure how often I will be back to comment on other episodes in my rewatch.  This one definitely deserved the attention.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@rewvian      That was quite a review.    ‘Rose’ was the episode that got me hooked on Who.   I’d seen some of Who when it was new – mostly Doctors 2 and 3, that’s how ancient I am – but then I lost touch.  Easy to do in the days before video recorders and DVD sets, it was catch it when it screened or never.    So I was a non-fan for about 40(?) years until Rose came along.

And it was Billie Piper just as much as Eccleston that deserves the credit for catching my attention, plus of course RTD’s writing.    For me, the companions are always as important as the Doctor in keeping my interest.   Just as well, therefore, that all of them have been strong characters.   (While I have to say, the companion’s boyfriends have tended to be a bit wet – Mickey, Danny, even Rory, though he grew into an adequate character).

cr

[VickyMallard @vickymallard]

And here we go again – as I am finally out of Tens, Fourteens and Fifteens I guess I might as well start at the beginning. Okay, relatively. Maybe because I’ve seen so many episodes with the Tenth Doctor recently, I connected a lot better with this episode than with the Church on Ruby Road. It was of course a lot more familiar – the Tardis, Rose, Mickey, Jackie, and generally the filming style, I guess.

I liked the episode a lot  – especially the mannequins coming to life! I love it when they have this kind of “real life monsters” that you see every day and that keepy you wondering if maybe they did move, just in the corner of your eye?

The Doctor took a bit of getting used to, his charm is a bit different to Ten, but I liked it more than I had expected. I loved seeing Jackie Tyler again, especially her bit with the “there is a strange man in my bedroom” bit. Reminded me of “Love and Monsters” (I think). Mickey surely still has a lot of room for growth left,  which he will fill in future seasons but here I felt I knew where the “Mickey the idiot” nickname came from. Not that he was an idiot in this episode, he was just… not as witty and open-minded as rose was. And I kind of disliked the end, when she kissed him goodbye to run off with this time-travelling alien. I mean, I’m glad Rose travelled with the Doctor and I’m very happy for her, but I felt quite sorry for Mickey there. I don’t think he deserved to be dumped like that.

I admit I didn’t really get who exactly the aliens were in this episode – apparently a conciousness that inhabits plastic? I loved the bubbling mass that the Doctor talked to, and also that Rose had to save him and he was clearly out of his depth at some point. And how he almost panicked when the Tardis suddenly appeared in that scene. At first, I thought the aliens were going to drop into the bubbling mass to destroy it, but then discarded that thought fairly quickly as obviously the Tardis was still around and “unharmed” for another couple of seasons. I also liked the bit with the London Eye, “a large ring of metal in the middle of London – it must be invisible!”

There were two points in the episode where I thought “Seriously?!”. One was Rose getting in the car with PlasticMickey without noticing that he was quite different both visually and in terms of behaviour. If my boyfriend suddenly looks like a lot like a shop mannequin and can no longer drive in a straight line, I think I would make sure to get out of the car as quickly as possible… especially if I were as quick-witted as Rose usually is. The other scene was Jackie in the shopping mall, standing at the foot of the escalator staring at the enfolding chaos in front of her – but without any attempt of getting back up where she came from? Okay, maybe that was just me and she was coming down from a higher floor so made straight for the exit. It just felt a bit weird to me.

So overall a nice start to a new series, I’m curious as to what’s to come!

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@vickymallard Finally 🙂 Yes ‘Rose’ is a good place to start. I would rabbit on about that’s where I started but I just said all that to Rewvian in the comment just above yours.

The mannequins were creepy. So was Plastic Mickey. And I agree it was a bit of a stretch that Rose didn’t recognise the strangeness, but I think that underlines the way Rose took Mickey for granted.
Billie Piper was an excellent casting choice, I knew nothing of her before (except I vaguely knew that she was some sort of teenie pop star, not my thing, Pink Floyd are my thing) but she had just the right personality to engage any viewer’s attention. And Mickey’s dullness and unadventurousness, along with Rose’s dull everyday life, were enough (in fantasy Doctor Who land) to explain her running off with the Doctor. It was a little bit rough on Mickey, but I forgave her instantly 🙂

The Doctor – just alien enough. “Are you from the North?” “Lots of planets have a north.”
Was this the first episode where RTD made a joke about Eccleston’s ears? I can’t remember if RTD used to joke about Ten’s appearance, Moffatt certainly used to joke about his Doctors’ features.

The alien – the Nestene Consciousness. Loved polluted environments, and could control or inhabit plastic. Apparently it sent its control signals from a huge antenna disguised as the London Eye.
[Nerd mode ON:] Strictly, that makes not a lot of sense. It shouldn’t need a transmitter that size. Unless the signals were ultra low frequency, but then how could the mannequins pick them up? I could be quite wrong here though, I stand to be corrected by anyone with radio knowledge.
As an aside, the giant Arecibo radio telescope dish in Goldeneye (James Bond) was even more absurd for controlling a satellite, but I love the movie anyway. [/Nerd mode]

In fact the Nestene Consciousness was – complicated. I never realised how complicated till I read its entry in Tardis.fandom.com – here’s the link: https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Nestene_Consciousness
I won’t even try to summarise it, I never realised how much background there was.

I think the episode succeeded, not so much because of the sci-fi element, but because of the human interplay between Rose and the Doctor (and also Jackie, and Mickey).

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. Jackie and Mickey definitely deserve credit for elevating every episode they were in. (Sadly Noel Clarke has somewhat soured things by his behaviour off screen so I am talking of Mickey the character.) Camille Coduri was excellent bringing warmth and humour to the role of Jackie. RTD did so  well with the family background for both Rose and Donna and I think that contributed to the success of both characters. He did not do so well with Martha, maybe because her family had to serve a narrative function but they always felt quite two dimensional in comparison.

It will soon be twenty years since Rose aired. I recall my joy on watching it. After the movie in the nineties I had very low expectations but after watching Rose I knew that Dr Who had been given a new lease of life. It was different from old Who too but in good ways. IT was clear from the start that RTD understood what Dr Who needed to be.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@vickymallard @dentarthurdent

Plastic Mickey. Man eating bins… ‘leave it to me, I’m  a gymnast!’ (in so many words) and yes lots of planets have a north.

Rose the story was lightweight in a good way. Light touch. We all know Who can do Preposterous and Pompous. But a nod to Spearhead from Space/Terror of the Autons, nothing too alarming, and away we go.

Well done RTD. And well done Chris Ecclestone. Possibly the best actor in the role, as good as Davidson or Troughton (saying nothing about the script)

Not sure what the final analysis of his departure was. The fact that Tennant became the new Tom Baker can’t be a coincidence. Presumably RTD wasn’t bothered about keeping Ecclestone on board.

[VickyMallard @vickymallard]

@dentarthurdent Yes, finally 😉 Thanks for the explanation about the Nestene Consciousness and the link – although I think for now I will be fine without additional background. But I absolutely love that it’s there – and that Doctor Who is a show that appreciates its fanbase’s enthusiastic attention to detail (probably because a lot of the people running it are proper nerds themselves?) In my other fandom the writers even struggled to maintain a logical timeline for the main character over 15 years, and matters there were not complicated by time travel 😉

I basically don’t know anything about Old Who (or whatever you call it) and I don’t think I’ll ever watch it, but I like that – apparently – there are references for those in the audience who grew up with it and can appreciate them, but at the same time you can come in as a new viewer without this background and still enjoy the episode.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@vickymallard Well I was effectively a ‘new viewer’ with Rose, too. That is, I’d seen some episodes of Two and Three when they first aired, but after that I dropped out for many decades. So ‘Rose’ was a fresh start for me. I also had no idea the Nestene Consciousness had a past (until I looked it up a few days ago. I’d highly recommend the wiki at Tardis.fandom.com by the way, for almost any questions regarding episodes or characters).
At the risk of committing sacrilege and being ceremoniously excommunicated from this site, I don’t watch much of Old Who either. By the time ‘Rose’ was made, production values were fully adequate. With Old Who (and this goes for Blakes 7, another favourite of mine), scenes inside the Tardis were okay, scenes outside (usually in a quarry) were okay, but aliens and robots were sometimes painfully obviously just extras in suits.
I’ve watched the last few stories of Seven and while I like Seven (Sylvester McCoy) and Ace, the ‘aliens’ and FX does make it hard for someone used to modern production values to fully engage in the story. There is a certain level (and that includes sets and special effects) below which it’s hard to sustain a convincing belief in the story. At the opposite extreme, spectacular FX can’t save it if the story and characters aren’t interesting, which is a mistake modern scifi/superhero movies often make.

@janetteb I was happy that Who had returned, though (since I’d dropped out decades before) I wasn’t missing it like you were. It was a promising new series to watch.
I couldn’t help noticing that both Martha and Donna’s mothers were the disapproving mother-in-law stereotype. Can’t help wondering if RTD had mother-in-law trouble 🙂
Whereas Jackie, of course, immediately fancied her chances with the Doctor. Camille Coduri was, as you say, excellent in the role. (Though Mickey probably thought she was the mother-in-law from hell).
Martha had a much bigger family, which tends to lessen their involvement. For some reason Yaz’s family, what little we saw of them, reminded me of Martha’s (but with a much less hostile mother).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@dentarthurdent @vickymallard</p>
if you are to venture into Classic Who, Phillip Hinchcliff/Roberts Holmes tenure is by far the best… 1975-1977. From ‘ark in space’ to ‘talons of weng chiang.’ Mostly gold. It fell foul of the ‘is this a kids’ show or what?’ controversy.

There are classics from all eras… ‘terror of the autons’ is terrifying and rightly revered… but, apart from the Tom Baker golden age, you must expect at least one utter clunker per series and several more with pointless crawling in ventilation shafts, or perfectly reasonable characters crucified by the terrible dialogue of moronic hacks.

And there were lots and lots of quarries, laughable monsters, worse effects and teeth grinding male chauvinism.

You tuned in and you didn’t know what you were going to get.

Tell it like it is.

[winston @winston]

@vickymallard One of my favourite things about Rose is the music. It brings me back again and again.  This was my first episode and it started an almost 20 year long addiction to Doctor Who. I wish the Doctor would wipe my memory so I could watch them all over again for the first time. I think the ninth Doctor is mad and bad and a little cheeky. He is my Doctor.

Stay safe

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1iOv3yOu

You sum up old Who well. Yet I at least, loved it for all that.

@vickymallard

Who scrips definitely have to work for the first time viewer as well as the aged fan. (like myself.) A friend is currently introducing the new stories to her daughter, who refers to them as “old Who”. She is loving it. I don’t think she will ever watch the old stories. The ones she has seen have failed to catch her attention.

Cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb I think ‘old Who’ worked perfectly well in its time. Just as, say, Blakes 7 did (even though the cast reputedly were a little bit disconcerted when the sets wobbled if they leaned on them). At the time, that was just the standard of special effects and production values we were used to. We used our imaginations to ‘fill in the gaps’ (and a fair bit of imagination was necessary. B7’s assorted ‘guns’ were singularly unconvincing).
It’s only looking back from the vantage of modern production values, that old Who (and B7) suffer by comparison. And they don’t have the visual appeal to grab the attention of your friend’s daughter.

If Doctor Who hadn’t lasted such an incredibly long time, I don’t think we’d be making these comparisons.

[winston @winston]

I have decided to watch every episode of new Who starting with Rose and ending with 15s regeneration into Rose. Feels like a good circle to follow. I am going to watch them all, even the ones I don’t like so much and the ones that scare me. I will watch the silly ones and the impossible ones and in order. This is my quest for the coming winter.

Canning a whole bunch of tomatoes can be boring what with the peeling ,chopping ,cooking and bottling but not if you watch Doctor Who while you do it. Today I watched Rose and that set me on my journey.It is just so good even after 20 years. I still love it and I remember how I was glued to the TV the first time I watched it. I was hooked on Who from that moment on. I can’t wait to watch the next episode just like the first time around.

stay happy

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston     Rose was an excellent way to (re)start a series.   I think by then, production values (and special FX) had got ‘good enough’ (without the rather charitable allowances we have to make even for the last of OldWho).  Even Mickey’s sticky encounter with the bin was – okay.

I would say the Companion has been as prominent and as important as the Doctor, ever since  (I don’t know if this was the case in OldWho).

I do recall at the time there was some criticism of casting a pop singer as Companion, and with the development of a romantic interest with the Doctor, which I think had never been allowed to happen in oldWho.   But I think it was absolutely successful.   It certainly rekindled my four-decades-dormant interest in Who.

I don’t know if it was established in oldWho, to make gentle fun of the Doctor’s physical characteristics (I’m sure there was a joke about Ecclestone’s ears, and his accent “Lots of planets have a North”), but anyway, that has continued ever since.

Please keep posting as you progress.   I have yet to re-start my (much more limited) watch-through, starting at the end of Chib’s era.

(How can you watch Who and chop tomatoes without cutting your fingers?)

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @winston

Rose is a good shout. Billie’s reappearance still seems to mystify the internet ‘World of Gammon.’ So, what’s it all about, eh?

I think Micky the bin is a good place to start. RTD has a sense of humour, something that continues with Cassandra desiccating, Slitheen flatus issues, and Adam need a hole in the head, like a… hole in head. RTD2 should be seen in the same vein. Better than a hole in the head.

Billie being a ‘singer’? Surely it’s more the case of Billie breaking out of her career straightjacket? Good move! I can’t honestly think anyone was seriously sniffy about that. Still, playing opposite major theatrical, film and tv talent. I thought Ecclestone was great and the welcome contrast to all the sniggers. Wouldn’t it have been great if he lasted longer or appeared in 60th anniversary special? But he didn’t like the set-up, which may have included the humour, and by now most people suspect he disliked some cast behaviour.

The romance? Well, The Doctor Danced before you realised it. Previous romance?

Katatina looked on The Doctor as a God, something that disturbed the writers so much they immediately killed her off.

Jamie was keen on Victoria but no-one was keen on Jamie.

Zoe had fun grabbing hold of the TARDIS console.

Jo liked Mike and Cliff. Sarah Jane threatened to spit in Harry’s eye.

4/Leela was quite heavily teased. And she did indeed shack up with a Gallifreyan… Rodan or Andred or someone like that.

Romana was a time lady… I wondered when they were going to wheel on a Loom… and Romana 2 and 4 became the fourth wall breaking REAL thing. She indulged his schoolgirl fantasies and everything!

Davison was keen on Nyssa the character. Unfortunately that meant Sarah Sutton was deprived of dialogue and action for AGES. In Snakedance, Nyssa DEFINITELY flirts with 5 and then gets very shirty with him. No good Nyssa. You can wander around Terminus in your underwear for three whole eps and then threaten to work with plague victims, there really is nothing there.

Until 6 and Peri. My theory is there’s no way they could survive their mutual antagonism unless something was going on. Let’s face it the rest of creation is NOT saying no. Or did this have something to do with Eric Saward?

Mel was Ace, and Ace and 7 was actually quite creepy. Be honest.

So 9/10 and Rose is really nothing new. And this is RTD, NOT Moff. Apart from The Doctor Dances.

But Moff became a marked man.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

But Moff became a marked man.

 

I’ve seen you allude to this before; any more context / details?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

‘Moff the marked man’… yes I have alluded, heavily. Will try to keep this short.

In respect to romance in Who, Moff couldn’t do anything RTD didn’t really want, so Russ must have been happy with the tone. And he had previously worked with the idea of ‘Rose the perfect companion’ himself. So, forget ‘The Doctor is Gay Man who women like’ schtick. This WAS teased in the past and we knew where it was going to end.

However, Moff gave us MUCH more: potential polyamory in The Doctor Dances, the green eyed god in ‘The Girl in The Fireplace,’  and the Time Traveller’s Wife in ‘Silence in the Library.’ Some people harrumphed but, the ratings were stellar and everyone looked forward eagerly to the next marvelous Moff outing.

The problem with Moff, as a friend said to me, is that he was the best writer under RTD and the best writer under Moff. He’s spread more thinly; the average will come down. And he hadn’t got Tennant. The red tops, who like nothing more than to point out the obvious, point this out. But there are questions raised about romance and kid’s programs, and teasing romance, and how female companions are written. So, Moff does what RTD shied away from and creates the perfect companion, or he gets The Silence to do it… a Psychopath! And Amy becomes his mother in law. She even says that.

This seems to fail the Bechdel test. Epically. There’s not many women on Moff’s rota of writers, and the Corp is peering nervously at storm clouds: Saville, Hall, Harris. They must know the salaries issue is round the corner.

The first real critical moans start in series seven. Was the Paternoster Gang angling at a spin-off? If so, they ain’t buying it. And WHAT is Strax doing there? Really?? ‘Nightmare in Silver’ is slaughtered by the critics, a bit unfairly I thought, but Moff apparently needs to tighten his grip. The Doctor now has a Snogging Booth and seems to be love bombing Clara. But it’s alright really… cos he’s going to turn into an older man!

Please don’t get me wrong, I think this is ALL great. The Trenzalor arc turned out a bit meh, but otherwise, what is wrong with the critics? The thing is, I am but one small unit in a vast society; some people didn’t think ‘great’ at all. There was a particular objection raised to Clara admiring her own rear view in ‘Listen’! Oh. And this is the series with The Soldier narrative. Moff marks the centenary of The Great War with Cybermen resurrected, flying into the sky and blowing up. I expected outrage… I detected some wincey fixed grins. ‘I am not you boyfriend’ says 12, but Clara still goes behind Danny’s back and gets breathless in a pod chair with Rigsy. Before that, Moff and Mathieson deliver the ultimate digitus impudicus to Bechdel with Maisie and Clara on The Orient Express.

I suspect by the time that was broadcast, Moff was told to wind it in. But, for Moff, the writing is the meta is the things you can’t REALLY have seen, can you? The Doctor recognises a Viking girl and Clara offers to fight him for her. Then he starts talking baby again. Oooh. Did we REALLY see that? Moff predicts Who up to 2020. So, there IS something like Cartmel 2.0 out there. Maybe he was told he couldn’t do the very things we saw/didn’t see/weren’t meant to see/were Meta, but they might yet become the plan. The soufflé isn’t the soufflé, it’s the recipe.

There is a mention of new funding, a streaming deal maybe? We get Husbands of River Song and Doctor Mysterio. But Moff doesn’t get the gig. Maybe he was always going to hand over the baton anyway. How long can you do that job? But it’s more Fin de siècle than the 2009 specials. Whithouse and Gatis get to point pistols at each other in Twice Upon a Time. Series ten, after a fantastic start, seemed rather rushed. Bill becomes a Cyberman, which is jaw-dropping. But also, is this Meta for ‘what does the Corp want from a companion?’ Yes Steven, it’s not you, it’s us. We need a deal, and a Lady Doctor, and she must be squeaky clean.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@winston that is a noble goal. All of the episodes, even Love and Monsters and Kill the Moon!!! I always skip a few when we re watch. I do like the plan though, from Rose to Dr Rose?.

I have such happy memories of watching Rose that first time, now over twenty years ago. (making it now into our cuT TV Club criteria but I still have some series of Old Who to cover. We are currently up to McCoy.) After the film in the 90s when I saw that Who was going to be revived I was not optimistic. I did not even plan on watching Rose until I read the review and decided to “brave” it. It did not take long to convince me and by the end, like you, I was excited to watch the next episode.

I did not always like the way the character of Rose was written. WE were told too often how wonderful she was which was irritating. I prefer to form my own judgement of a character. Also at times it felt as though BP was a little too self aware. Seeing BP on stage as herself I realise that she is not like that at all. Again I think that is a fault in scripting and direction rather than of the actor. Still overall I really enjoyed the first season. I liked that the Companion became more of a character than in Old Who with a character arc and background.Eccleston and Piper clearly enjoyed working together and did a fine job of kickstarting New Who.

cheers

Janette

[janetteB @janetteb]

also I am not keeping up with this thread. I have a lot more to read so apologies for my post being a little behind the flow of the discussion which I am enjoying and will comment on if time permits.

cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb   I wouldn’t worry about ‘not keeping up.’    I used to comment on episodes as I got them then and then found that the previous comments I was ‘replying’ to were made two years before…   One of the hazards of ‘catching up’ with DVD’s.

But I don’t recall anyone ever being put out about it.

Having watched the movie recently, I can see why you weren’t optimistic for a revival.   McGann was great, the film was OK but it felt somehow American (Canadian?), it just didn’t really feel like Who (old or new).

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Very interesting, although I must say that the press criticism passed me by at the time. I do remember seeing “Moff can’t write women” and “Mary Sue” in the comment sections of t’other place, and, yes, he could verge on cartoonish characterisations sometimes. I think he did, clearly, pave the way for the first female Doctor as he introduced (IIRC) the notion that TLs can regenerate into other genders / sexes.

Showrunning Who is a tough gig, especially when you are writing so much of the content, and I suspect he was burnt out by the end of Capaldi’s run. He had certainly peaked in terms of content I ‘d say, although Capaldi’s last season was the best of his run imo. He definitely had stories that were more companion- (ie female-) led, so maybe that shows where his preference lay.

If Moff did want to write a female Doc, then, with hindsight, maybe the 11-12 regen should have been Whittaker’s rather than Capaldi (first of a new cycle of regens would have been a nice tie-in here) and Moff could have at it (as it were) with a female lead. Then Capaldi after with a new showrunner. Sounds like the BBC didn’t want to risk him, but we’ve ended up with Chibnall and now RTD2, so what do they really know.

[winston @winston]

@janetteb  Yes, all the episodes. I actually don’t mind Kill the Moon or Love  and Monsters. In fact I like the Who fans who meet to discuss the Doctor but soon become friends and even more. They all had a cruel ending. I don’t enjoy the episodes where the Doctor “dies” and regenerates ,  too sad for me. The cruelty of the cybermen also creeps me out and Oxygen, that one gave me bad dreams. But I will watch them all this time,some for only the 2nd time and some too many times to count.

I only wish I was watching them all for the 1st time.

@dentarthurdent  I have watched Rose so many times that half the time I was only listening. Plus after peeling them I let my food processor chop them up for me. I made 8 pints of salsa while watching it. I have been canning for many years so it just kind of happens.Today I made red current jelly. So good in the middle of a cold winter.

@ps1l0v3y0u I don’t know why the Doctor seemed to regenerate into Billie Piper but you can bet I literally clapped my hands and squeeeed in surprise and delight. Who nose how long we have to wait to find out?

stay cozy

[janetteB @janetteb]

@winston I also like the fan club in Love and Monsters so agreed not all bad.it began well but the ending was questionable. Kill the Moon however I can find nothing positive about at all.

It would be nice to be able to do a Kryten (Red Dwarf) type memory wipe. (He had his memory of all of Agatha christie’s works deleted so he could read them again.)  Although I do enjoy rewatching and often get more out of a second or third watch.)

I actually think Billie Piper might be quite good as the Doctor. I would certainly like to see her in the role, even if it is only as an interim. (even though I didn’t always love her as Rose but I think she has developed a lot as an actor and given good scripts and direction..)

cheers

Janette

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar Well, if the 12th Doctor had been Whittaker, it would have been interesting to see how well she did with, errm, better direction. 🙂 Though by the nature of it, we wouldn’t then have seen her actual Chibz-directed performance so we would never be able to make comparisons. (But that’s a hypothetical, to my mind Capaldi + Moff = the Best Doc Ever, so I would hate to have missed that (though again, we’d never have known).

As for “Moff can’t write women”, I’d like to see which Who writers could claim to write women better. I thought his female characters, most notably Amy, Clara and Bill, were very well-written. (Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be an expert on women 🙂

@winston @janetteb Yes, I’d love to see Billie Piper as the Doctor. And, considering the role she played in re-launching the series, I can’t think of anyone who deserves the chance better. (Also, she’s now 20 years older (doesn’t time fly?!) and more mature, which I think suits the Doctor better. (I took a while to get used to Matt Smith because he looked too young. Similarly I could never quite credit Roger Moore as James Bond until his last couple of films).

Winston, you’re heading into winter (I think), we’re heading out of it. Our seasons run late, normally I don’t swim before Christmas, or the start of December at the earliest ever. And thereby hangs an odd tale – two weeks ago I went down to the beach for a walk. It was half tide and two kids were sitting in the water, so I tried it, and the edge was warm (from the sun). So I went in, by the time I’d gone 100 yards and in two feet of water (very flat beach) it was cool but not freezing, so I sat down and chilled (!) for five minutes. I’ve known it colder in December! (Northern Hemisphereans think: June 🙂 I must try again and see if that was just a freak event.

By the way, I just watched Eve of the Daleks (comments in that forum). I did find the timeline easier to follow on a re-watch, as often happens. That particularly applies to time-travel episodes like Blink. It might even apply to the Flux, but I’m not going to try that this time round.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Yes bring in Billie as the Doctor. If Maxil can become 6, Caecilius becomes 12, & 10 becomes 2 other versions of himself, why not? I can no more understand the voices saying ‘no. Not happened yet. Can’t be real. La la lala la!’

As to… WHY? I assume Rose represents something to the Doctor… and you might as well call it love. And 6 represented a pompous functionary, 12 was the potential to act, & 10 was vanity and arrogance.

Or Rose is just the show eating itself. Bottom of barrel – scraper; scraper… bottom of barrel. Just putting it out there.

I will add a postscript re the Moff debate ‘On the Sofa.’ After all, Moff only ever wrote The Moment for Billie.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

Im a big fan of Capaldi and, yes, we would certainly be poorer for not having him in Who. But Moff + Whittaker would have served up some treats I think.

There are a lot of reactionary folk on The G (more now than ever it seems), and the “Moff can’t write…” comments were rarely backed up by anything logical, so my assumption was that they just didn’t like an episode and were…venting. Keeps.’em off the streets I suppose.

I will go against the trend a bit here and say I hope Billie Piper isn’t the next Doc. Nothing against her at all, but the idea of it is just too gimmicky for my taste. I had similar feelings about Tennant coming back in as 14.

Although, at this point, I’ll take whatever is on offer…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar I doubt Billie Piper would play the Doctor for long. I suspect she is a “filler’ as there is no certainty as to when the next series will be and she stepped in as a favour to RTD and the show, and fans. I do think she could be good and would like to see her run with the role for a couple of episodes then hand on the baton to the next candidate.

@dentarthurdent I don’t agree with the Moff can’t write women but he did try perhaps a little too hard to make the main female characters strong. Bill Pots is I think the most rounded character. I never get the sense that the writer is trying to prove that he isn’t “sexist”. His claims that River Song and the Doctor are both psychopaths was incorrect and irritated me but overall Moff was a great writer. He has  massive task on his hands as show runner and there were some misfires during his tenure but given the scale of responsibility and pressure he was under I think he did a great job overall and the Moff years were my favourite of New Who. I would love for him to pick up the reigns again.

@ps1l0v3y0u Casting Billie Piper at the end was a practical decision I think without being cynical. It makes sense to use her as a stand in. RTD was in an awkward position and he set up the ending so that there was a face to run with when the next series eventually happens. Strategic planning are the words I would use. Not so much scraping the barrel as desperate measures for challenging times. (that reflects the current age really doesn’t it.)

cheers

Janette.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb

Agree that Bille Piper would be good in the role. But the Doc taking one of his companion’s faces just seems a little bit…creepy maybe isn’t the right word here but it’s not far off.

Also, the decision to use a previous companion for the last 30 seconds of the current run, really muddies the waters in terms of what’s happening in the broader Whoniverse (ugh), in that we simply don’t have a current Doctor. We don’t know what BPs appearance means, it’s been (deliberately) left open. If another, previously unknown face, had appeared then we’d all have gone “Ah, so that’s the new Doc” and moved on. Or maybe a fade-to-black as the regen energy consumed 15 would have been a more palatable halfway house option.

I absolutely understand that real-world practicalities are now driving what’s happening on screen. RTD2’s insistence on having Ncuti Gatwa as 15, even knowing he was not available for a chunk of the first season and unlikely to stick around very long, means that RTD2 / Bad Wolf Productions is responsible for a lot of the mess the show is now in. I would be interested to know at what point Gatwa told Davies he was going to leave. Looking at the way the final 20 mins of the finale was (hastily) re-written, I infer that it came a bit out of the blue.

And all that coupled with the Disney tie-in, Tennant’s reappearance as 14, the additional pressure due to the budget increase, plus RTD2 stepping in again (which I imagine was less than ideal for him) and there have been a catalogue of decisions which have resulted in the show seemingly on the brink. And this is without mentioning some of the in-show decisions which were critically not well-received further adding pressure and contributing to the falling ratings.

My hope is that the lack of news re the show’s future is a positive sign, and the BBC are frantically negotiating with someone in the background.

Of course, as it has in the past, a new Doctor and a new writing team can swiftly bring the show back to former glories. Hopefully they get the chance to do it.

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