[Mersey @replies]

@countscarlioni

This is a beautiful idea. For me the problem with Doctor-Clara relationship is that that we have so many layers of it that we could not distinguish which is which. It all changed so much that it’s hard to tell what kind of people they are now.

I don’t know if someone have mentioned that already but the Beethoven’s 5th symphony is known as Fate symphony or Victory symphony from roman number V(ictory). In one if his letters Beethoven wrote about his illness that he would “seize Fate by the throat. It shall not bend or crush me completely”. There is also a story of him telling his assistant Anton Schindler, that the 5th opening theme is “how the fate is knocking at the gates of life”. The truth of this story is undermined, but still it’s present in our culture.

[Mersey @replies]

@countscarlioni @purofilion

Doctor already lost Amy and governess-Clara. And he was really devastated by their deaths. I don’t know if Moffat want to stake on the same card. But maybe 12th can cope with her loss much more better than 11th. He is a very ambiguous charater in case of feelings. He couldn’t understand the feelings of the crew who lost their friends (cards in Under the Lake) but he was so moved by the death of a girl that he made her immortal. Is he really devoted to Clara or it’s just a sense of duty? He definitely owes her.

• This reply was modified 10 years, 10 months ago by  Mersey.

[Mersey @replies]

@purofilion

I received all your replies in the middle of the night, I read them and started to think about Doctor Who so madly that I couldn’t fall asleep again. I wanted to finish this conversation about Clara because I felt it got out of control (literally!:-) but I just can’t ignore 5 replies!

My opinion about Clara in season 7 and partly in season 8 was something I covered up for two seasons. I spend hours and days watching and rewatching the best show in the world and there was Clara who I couldn’t accept and even considered abandoning the show! But I joined this forum and finally got an opportunity to tell people what I was thinking about her. I don’t have a time vortex manipulator so I can’t go back in time and change my feelings towards Clara and I don’t want to do that. But after I had expressed my feeling I felt better and I think I’m starting to like Clara!

As for this tragic endings, Rose eventually got her Doctor but the first ending was really sad. One can argue that Martha was happy, but she supposed to be a doctor, a person who saves people’s’lives and she ended up as some kind of assassin. Donna ended up married and she got a lotery coupon from her father but still all her memories were wiped out with the possibility that her mind will be blown up. And she returned to the place where she had started. And that was so unfair. She was a fine woman and she achieved so much! And even now she has an influence on Doctor. Amy lived and died happily with Rory but she was deprived of being pregnant (and being concious about it) and having her own baby. And there was the WWII before them and of course they were separated from their families. And these events were really traumatic for Doctor. Do you remember the scene from Let’s kill Hitler in which he asks Tardis to show him someone about who he doesn’t feel guilty?

Thanks for your attention. You don’t give up!

 

[Mersey @replies]

@pufferfish it’s not a case of how many per cents of your brain do you use. Your brain is like a storehouse. You collect your memories and once you’ve stored them, they remain there forever. You can forget them but you can’t delete them. The space is taken. And your storehouse has limited surface. Ashildr’s library was an image of her overfilled brain/mind. Doctor also has one. But I’m neither a neurobiologist nor futurologist. And this is Whoniverse!

[Mersey @replies]

I forgot to mention one thing. Human brain is limited and it can remember only definite number of memories. It’s not a problem if you live 100 years but when you’re immortal your brain is so full that you don’t have space for new memories! You just can’t remember anything. The author didn’t stick to the science but this problem of having too many memories (especially those tragic) was really intetesting.

[Mersey @replies]

I had read your comments about the episode before I watched it and I regret it now. The episode is full of clues so I regret that I coudn’t discover  them on my own. The episode was really moving.

12th have made more mistakes so far than 9,10,11 made together. Ok, it’s a joke but I feel he’s less fortunate then his predecessors or he takes his failures more personally.

[Mersey @replies]

@ichabod

I interpret this leaf as something like a weeping angels effect. Her mother’s death ripped from the present and the future not only her life but also all stories and all possibilities of her life. Her every possible choice and things like that. And this leaf is a record of those things.

I think it’s time to leave Clara alone and move on. I fully accept Clara in this season. That’s the end of this conversation for me.

[Mersey @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

My mother died when I was 5. Mother’s death is a wound that never heals. You’re left in a constant fear that something will happen with you second parent and you’ll be left alone. It’s much more harder to leave your parent and live your own life. For me Clara doesn’t look like a person much affected by her mother’s death.

But I must admit, her Christmas looked very convincing. Same for me but instead of Grandmother Grandfather and no dad’s girlfriend. Except for that I don’t buy this story.

[Mersey @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

“Clara certainly wasn’t perfect as a human in her first series”.

Compare her life to the other companions. Look at her perfect parents. Her handsome father (remember Rose’s father?), and good-looking mother so sweet and nice. We can see at the beginning of The Rings of Akhaten her childhood and it looks perfect. Her family is completely happy (remember Martha’s family?). Yes, her mother dies but that is a plot point. Clara needs her magical leaf to save the day. And again, Clara who is working as a nanny is completely happy. And she’s so helpful. Her life is not miserable but it looks really good. She doesn’t look like a person who desperately wants to change something in it. But maybe the word “perfect” is not so suitable here. Maybe “idyllic” is better. Maybe there’s something in Clara that can explain that but we didn’t get any clue about it in her first season.

@ichabod

“I liked her as soon as she showed some spunk on her own behalf, which was S8.”

For me she was still too perfect companion. She was capable of landing on Gallifrey (?)!

We know that Clara is leaving the Tardis. I hope it’s not another tragic story. I want a happy ending for a change without Doctor feeling guilty again. I’m naive, aren’t I?

[Mersey @replies]

They had a daughter named Clara and packed her timeladiesness into the watch. And the Doctor left her with adoptive parents and that’s way the 11th watched her growing. Why not? 🙂

[Mersey @replies]

@bluesqueakpip

“That’s a plot point to which we haven’t yet had the answer.”

My point earlier in this conversation was that Clara was so perfect because she was an undeveloped character. She was perfect as a human (a perfect barmaid, a perfect souffle girl, a perfect nanny) and a companion. But why she’s not perfect any more? Because the writers changed their minds about her. We didn’t get any clues in her first season that she’s something more than a regular human. She was impossible, but now we know why.  Not because she was special but because she entered Doctor’s timeline (another woman destined to save the Doctor). I’m not sure whether we’ll get every answer. We have questions about Rupert/Danny and of course Orson Pink who has Danny’s face and time travelling is his family tradition. But Danny didn’t travel in time and Clara was not pregnant with him. Remember that Coleman wanted to leave the show after the Christmas special. And writers didn’t plan to give as any answers then. Now they have more time and they’ll cook something up. (They’ve already done it). So I stick to my point that Clara at the beginning was really undeveloped and that’s why I didn’t like her.

I feel I’m a rather down-to-earth user of this forum but it’s good. It only stimulates our conversations.

 

[Mersey @replies]

@purofilion

“Why couldn’t you ‘stand her’?”

I couldn’t stand Clara because she was too perfect. It’s really hard to identify with someone so impossible:-). I think this opinion crops up in people’s comments. Rose was a young, uneducated woman who sought her place in the world, Martha had her crazy family and she suffered from Doctor’s complex, Donna had no pernament job and she lived with her mom in her thirties, Amy was an orphan working as a kissogram. Clara lost her mum, but she was still too happy for my. She didn’t act as a regular companion as well. She was capable of flying the Tardis and she even landed on Gallifrey!

“On the contrary, I think it was clever: from Deep Breath onwards we knew where the face had come from, but in the way of dramatic irony, we’re waiting for the big reveal for the Doctor and I thought it was nicely done.”

As for Doctor’s face I don’t think it’s a stupid idea. Everyone heard about Moffat- Davis conversation. I was really curious what they had cooked. But I forgot about it. And now Capaldi is really established as the Doctor and it doesn’t matter for me that he has the face of some ancient sculptor. They waited too long with the news. And as far as I know Time Lord can’t choose his appearence. So who gave him this face, who decided about it? If he had the piece of Caecilius…. Funny how they’re changing rules with every series.

“I must be one person who, in watching the series, didn’t particularly enjoy it. Actaully, when is it all going to be over! ;)”

You are not the only one who doesn’t apreciate Game of Thrones. I watched the first episode and decided it’s too violent for me.

@ichabod

” I’m not at all sure she wants to travel with the Doctor forever, or be immortal.  She’s suffering too much.”

It was partly a joke, but I did see something in her eyes. Sometimes I think Clara risks her life because she subsconciously wants to die and the Doctor is her only reason to live. Sometimes I think the opposite. But when she said that the Doctor did the right thing for Ashildr there was definitely something on her mind. Maybe as @janetteb has said, Clara thought about Dany. That was my second thought.

Thank you for your replies!

[Mersey @replies]

1. What an inconsistent episode! A combination of silliness, drama, Maisie Williams and really serious stuff with Donna Noble and the Doctor’s face. Donna, you were an amazing companion. So now I have a few words about Clara. When she stepped in in the second part of the 7th series she was a very, very undeveloped character. She had no real background, no family (yes, her father was mentioned but he didn’t play any part), no friends, no real job. Was she rich, poor or middle class, educated or uneducated? We didn’t know that. She was pretty, smart and clever, almost without any flaws. Nothing interesting really. I couldn’t stand her. But she was strong and yes, at that time she was mature and responsible. When Doctor said ‘Stay!’ she stayed. Why? Because she wasn’t Amy. And as the Doctor was getting weaker and weaker she had to be the strong one. But perfection is really boring and writers had planned something nasty for her. But the next series showed us how much undeveloped she was. Doctor companions usually start their journey with him as young, a bit immature people. But they grow up, become adults and leave the Tardis. It’s natural. But with Clara is exactly the opossite. She was strong when she started and now she’s cracked. Did you see in her eyes? ‘Why didn’t you give it to me’ look. She wants to be immortal! She wants to accompany the Doctor forever! You can say that’s her development (reverse I think). Yes, it is, but I had these two seasons I wanted her to go so much. Now she’s fine for me. But it’s too late to like her.

To sum up, it wasn’t my favourite episode. I don’t know why they care so much about Capaldi’s face. It’s not as clever as they think.

Oh, and I have this little conversation:

Clara: Doctor?

Doctor: Yes, Clara?

Clara: I have this funny feeling that I’ve seen this girl before.

Doctor: Clara, my Clara! Haven’t you watched Game of thrones? Haven’t you waisted your time before this flat, electric box? I thought every human child watches Game of thrones!

[Mersey @replies]

I don’t like plastic creatures, but except that, that was bloody brilliant. The last season was a big disappointment for me, but this one is great so far. I had a problem with Clara. I couldn’t like her but now I know the real problem was the Doctor. He was hesitant, moody and full of doubts but now he is just what the true Doctor should be (for me of course). I usually listen to the new episode without watching it for the second time so kudos for great dialogs and music.

[Mersey @replies]

@ichabod Yes, but people (or crews) who need help don’t expect him. (In my home language we use or used to use this Deus ex machina saying I don’t know if anyone bothers with latin sayings anymore, when we get really unexpected help in the last moment). They usually ask him ‘Who the hell are you?’ As an audience we know he will arrive, but crews who needs help don’t. We know that Doctor can’t be dead but Clara doesn’t know that yet. This is my point of view and I don’t think it is so important to discuss it.

[Mersey @replies]

@purofilion Yes, this is what I meant but not exactly in terms of ancient drama. It is rather a positive coincidence, unexpected help in the last moment, when you think you’re a goner. I think Doctor is the true embodiment of this concept, the ancient god in his machine. And I think it’s really nice wordplay.

These ‘lost station’ episodes are usually really creepy and depressing. In Satan’s Pit, 42, Waters of Mars people get killed and it is really sad. I just prefer more cheering episodes with more cosy spaces, like The God Complex or Hide. But I grew fond of the crew from Under the Lake so I hope they will stay alive.

[Mersey @replies]

@mudlark good point. The whole station looked like Enterprise from a bird’s-eye view. Star Wars in the first episode, Star Trek in this one, what next? A Space Odyssey, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5? I have no objection.

I had read some of your comments before I wached the episode and I was a little bit prejudiced. Another lost station, a crew in need, and Doctor ex machina of course. But the writer did a marvelous job. I have no complaints and really enjoyed it though I miss the scredriver. The theory about Doctor-Merlin is just beautiful. I can’t wait for the second part.

[Mersey @replies]

That was massive! This is exactly what I expect from the series and yes, from Doctor. Finally he is the Doctor without this odd question ‘Am I a good man?’ (I thought you figured it out all through 900 years). And Clara who was always for me rather undeveloped and unconvincing character finally started to act as Doctor’s puppy human companion who doesn’t know everything. Good job

[Mersey @replies]

As an afterfought I must say I’m not sure about this turnaround with Davros. I know that time is a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff but I don’t like when they mess with the past so crudely (?).

I’ve never been much of a Master fan, but I must say, Michelle Gomez as Missy has my full support. Can she become even more exciting chracter than the Doctor is?

@purofilion Thank you for your kind words. I’m not exactly new here. The whole last season I had read your comments before I wached the episode, but as the headline states your theories are really more insane and sometimes even more interesting than what’s actually happening, so after all I felt a litte bit disappointed with what’s actually happening. And I have watched Doctor Who for years.

[Mersey @replies]

I really enjoyed the episode. It lacks a little bit of an action but still it was very entertaining. I wonder what did the Doctor do in the young Davros planet (It was Skaro, isn’t it?) before the Daleks had been created and before the Time war begun. It must be really, really long ago. As we could see, Doctor just left young Davros knowing that he ultimately will survive. He did probably because of the Doctor’s screwdriver. But it was a big interference. If it really was the Doctor who saved Davros (with his screwdriver), he could do much more. And he don’t have to kill him to save Clara. He can do such thing like he did in “A Christmas Carol”. But I don’t believe he can do such paradox. No Davros, no Daleks, no Time War, etc. Was it his rage that influence so much Davros? I miss a little bit those episodes which had their internal, independent stories. And why it has to be always the Doctor’s fault?!

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