Under The Lake

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  • #44030
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I love the two parters, a slower build up. I spent about the first half of this episode smiling, Capaldi was fantastic. The second half I actually felts half panicked, which doesn’t usually happen.

    One question- if the ghosts ‘don’t come out during day’, how are they messing with the computers to bring day? I love the literalism of it, and I get that there is probably something in day mode that interferes with them- but then, how are they overriding the computer?

    #44031
    Anonymous @

    The Doctor says “wait a minuet” (it’s hard to hear but it’s after he says “wait a minute”)

    Why? I know a minuet is a dance in 3/4 but…

    3 ghosts and also 3 people in the dragon…..

    I know silly stuff but it’s clever and I should go to BED!

    #44032
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @hudsey- brilliant- yes, I think that would work. (Doctor in the life support, that is.)

    #44033
    janetteB @janetteb

    Just an amusing aside, this series is copying our D&D sessions. Last week with the snake man and this week with ghosts. (Last night the party were fighting ghosts after opening a sarcophagus which contained a snake entity skeleton that controlled the ghosts.)

    Back to the story I am guessing that the oil found is in some way linked to the space ship also wondered why the first ghost appears to be wearing Victorian garb, especially if he is alien.

    Just read some of the comments BTL. It seems that apart from the obvious dial in troll, they are mostly positive.

    Cheers

    Janette.

     

    #44034
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip apologies I didn’t recognise that you’d seen the Narnia painting. Yes, erm, obviously you’d pick up on that -here I am complaining about others only scanning and now I’m doin’ the same!

    Still, the people in the painting remind me of officers in Star Trek uniforms!

    Mad, I am!

    Still the Doctor said “Bonkers” Squee

    #44035
    janetteB @janetteb

    @Purofilion. I thought there were Star Trek officers in the painting too. In fact that was all I saw of it. Must look at it again. That however will have to wait till tomorrow.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #44036
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @purofilion   Yes, as @bluesqueakpip observed, the mural on the wall of the Base canteen appears to be an illustration of the scene in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader where a sea serpent coils round the ship and attempts to crush it, though I don’t recall it as one of the originals by Pauline Baynes (I no longer possess a copy, so can’t check).  The three figures in the ship would therefore be the three children, Lucy, Edmund and their obnoxious cousin Eustace.  I don’t think you are necessarily bonkers, though, in suggesting that the subject of the mural could be more than an incidental feature of the décor in the crew’s living area, and may have significance in relation to the plot.  Perhaps not a Star Trek reference though, despite the opening voice-over  🙂

    #44037
    shellthelordoftime @shellthelordoftime

    Not happy that the screwdriver is no longer, maybe glasses and screwdriver?

    Enjoyed the humour  and the story line, cant wait to see next week.

    just read in the paper that due to the falling in ratings, that the 10th season may be done into 3 last specials.

    Moffet going to concentrate on Sherlock might have something to do with that, also the time that they have been showing it later than a few years ago (Tennant + Smith) when younger kids would get into it.

    #44038
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @miapatrick

    One question- if the ghosts ‘don’t come out during day’, how are they messing with the computers to bring day?

    At a guess, it is only the ability to project as ghosts and the associated telekinetic ability to manipulate material objects that is inhibited when the Base is in day mode, and that whatever is behind the projections retains the means to interfere with the electronics.

    #44039
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @mudlark

    It’s certainly not in my edition – but if it’s not a direct copy, then it’s definitely in the Pauline Baynes style.

    Could be copyright issues or it could be that they wanted that particular scene and then found she hadn’t illustrated it.

    #44040
    Anonymous @

    Ah, watched an episode of Supernatural (the musical @barnable) but I must say @shellthelordoftime

    that I wouldn’t believe the papers. I doubt that there are failing ratings/viewings. The overnights + 7 as well as the downloads and other forms of upload have suggested the exact opposite.

    This endless belief that a showrunner dealing with several episodes (like Sherlock ) cannot cope with 12 episodes of  another equally popular show is getting a bit old.

    I would perhaps stay away from those papers.

    Also, there could be spoilers in these suggestions which might belong in another thread entirely. 🙂

    I could, however, be wrong, sir!

    Anyhoo, welcome to the site and hope you enjoy it here.

    I too loved this episode: there’s so much to see and I’ve only watched it once. At least 3 more viewings are required but I really felt that Clara was all “doctery” and that the Dr is himself investigating the nature of death -the Tardis, ‘naturally’ doesn’t particularly like it, however.

    @mudlark I understand your point (I think) : that these ‘beings’ behind the Ghosts are able to muckabout in day light thus interfering with the actual technology but the Ghosts lose their ‘energy’ as it were? and therefore disappear.

    So the 3 individuals -Lucy, Edmund and Eustace form the dance, the minuet?

    #44041
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark @bluesqueakpip

    OK, so we have had a discussion of Gotterdammerung and Ragnarok in recent times.

    Interesting that in the funeral march (and Old Ghost is dressed in funeral garb; though certainly not Norse — still perhaps he is also the coffin bearer or the precursor?) we have the time signature of 6/4 -very unusual as it relates to the rhythm of three. Although most funeral marches are sombre, in 4/4,  as the 19 century progressed, things changed somewhat.

    What’s really interesting is that in the story of Gotterdammerung we have death by fire and immersion.

    Interesting deaths considering Part 1?

    #44042
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @shellthelordoftime

    just read in the paper that due to the falling in ratings, that the 10th season may be done into 3 last specials.

    Yes, I’m positive that the BBC is going to cancel their fourth most popular programme. 🙄 It makes so much sense to lose all those International sales, especially after they’ve lost Top Gear as well.

    If we are getting a year of specials next year (and it’s still very much in the realm of ‘bonkers theory’ rather than ‘definite information’), the likelier explanation is a change of producer or a change of leading actor. The +7 viewing figures for Peter Capaldi are actually better than for many episodes in Tennant’s first series and the rumours are that the iPlayer downloads are nearing or have exceeded the 2 million mark.

    #44043
    shellthelordoftime @shellthelordoftime

    @bluesqueakpip i didnt think it would be the case, as i wouldn’t believe the date in some newspapers wanted peoples insight to what i have read.

    thank you for getting back to me

    i am new to this and i thank @purofilion for my welcome to the site also

    #44044
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @bluesqueakpip Thank you for the compliment. I have to say, however, that I have no idea how the Merlin reference in Battlefield fit into the Cartmel Masterplan. It seems clear that ‘Merlin’ was the Sylvester McCoy Doctor, I mean, that’s the only inference that I can make based on the fact that they physically recognize him and his voice print matches. The story suggests either an alternate universe version or a future adventure. I’m inclined to the future adventure. But really, it only ties to the Cartmel Masterplan in that the Doctor is, once again, more than he appears.

    #44045
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    I haven’t watched the episode by the way. I am currently tied up with family matters and travelling. I think I’ll wait until just before the second part. In the meantime…

    The little I’ve seen of the Ghost reminds me of the Whispermen from the ‘….of he Doctor’

    #44046
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @denvaldron

    Like you, I think the Doctor as ‘Merlin’ ties into the Cartmel Masterplan insofar as it represented the Doctor as somehow more than he seemed.

    If I’m remembering the story of Battlefield correctly (@Phaseshift??), while everyone recognised that the Doctor was the Merlin they knew, people kept saying that his face had changed. So, not the McCoy Doctor.

    If there’s a Moffat Masterplan, it’s subject to change without notice as actors move on/aren’t available/refuse to appear. But what it seems to be is a development of the Cartmel Masterplan along the lines of ‘This is a story about time travel, dammit!’ 🙂 That is, the Doctor may well be far more than he appears to be. But that’s not his past. It’s his future.

    But in a universe that contains Time Lords and time travel, one heck of a lot of people know his future.

    Our Doctor, the Doctor we see now, is just John Smith from Gallifrey. He’s a stage magician, a trickster, not some kind of universe-saving demigod. But as he said last week, on a good day, when things go right, he can be ‘The Doctor’.

    The Capaldi incarnation is very aware that ‘The Doctor’ is a role he plays. More so than many of his previous incarnations; this is the man who remembers when he wasn’t ‘The Doctor’. He is John Smith. Hence the t-shirts, the pullovers, the basically ordinary clothes instead of a costume worthy of ‘The Doctor’.

    He’s not a rock star. Until he puts on his sonic sunglasses. Indoors. 😉

    #44047
    Ludwig @ludwig

    @bluesqueakpip

    If there’s a change in schedule it would be to give Capaldi (who looks a little frail to me) a rest, I think. It’s a shame in a way that he didn’t get the job in 2005, and I say that as an admirer of the Eccles Doctor.

    #44048
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @bluesqueakpip That’s quite an interesting notion. That the Doctor is still growing into his form.

    I’ll double check on the Battlefield reference.

    #44049
    DenValdron @denvaldron

    @bluesqueakpip My memory played me false, you are entirely correct:

    ANCELYN: Merlin. Against all hope.
    (Doris sighs as the Brigadier takes off in the helicopter.)
    SHOU: Merlin?
    ACE: You’ve got it wrong, mate. This is the Doctor.
    (Ancelyn removes his plate armour to reveal chain mail.)
    ANCELYN: Oh, he has many faces, but in my reckoning, he is Merlin.
    DOCTOR: You recognise my face, then?
    ANCELYN: No, not your aspect, but your manner that betrays you. Do you not ride the ship of time? Does it not deceive the senses being larger within than out? Merlin, cease these games and tell me truly, is this the time?

    MORDRED: Mother, Merlin is here.
    MORGAINE: Yes, I can feel his presence.
    MORDRED: He has a new countenance.
    MORGAINE: He has worn many faces. Merlin, hear me.

    #44050
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip @juniperfish

    Sorry, my schedule is hell at the moment and I completely glossed over your fascinating discussion on the Arthurian references.

    Yes, completely bang on with the Battlefield reference @bluesqueakpip, and I always got the impression he’d both been and would be Merlin again. The once and future Wizard.

    If this plays out, then surely we have to award Toby the ‘McCoy Fanboy Legacy’ Award, as God Complex revisited themes from Curse of Fenric.

    @juniperfish , regarding placement of characters I go back to my idle question about Clara’s fashion choice and I can’t help but think her arm may be wielding a sword next week in a cheeky nod to The Holy Grail:

    The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king

    I think this fabric might look a bit shimmering gold (samite being goldy silk) when wet.
    still of clara
    Clara, her arms clad in shimmering samite. Possibly. 😀

    #44051
    Mudlark @mudlark

    I have just been reading through all the comments again and see that the majority opinion is that that the ‘sword’ coordinate is a sword-in-the-lake reference and, by extension points to an Arthurian theme.  I confess that I have had difficulty seeing it that way and am in favour of taking the Doctor’s interpretation at face value. But of course the Doctor could be wrong, and so could I, so I will go away and muse upon Arthurian themes.

    In the meantime, pondering things that could be found lurking in lakes, I came up with Grendel and his gruesome Ma, but maybe there isn’t space for them in this episode  😈

    #44052
    lisa @lisa

    It was interesting about how the Doctor had to put on the Tardis hand break
    because she wanted to leave but Clara was ripping to go. He had his girls pulling
    him in both directions. The Doctor had to give Clara a ‘hold on’ with all this
    overconfidence. Something doesn’t add up about that. I wonder if the Tardis is sensing
    something about the other space ship which is causing this unease?
    Blocking out the eyes to indicate re-wiring of the brains is the spookiest bit for me.
    Thinking this would have been a good Halloween episode.

    #44053
    Kharis @kharis

    Okay, any of you who have read my private message about my theories may have guessed I’m sort of freaking out right now, because people on this forum who asked to hear them in PM know I completely called this before I saw it, and also I may have been the first to see the tarot theme in this season and post on it on any Who site. A nod to my brilliant mum on this, she would have been thrilled.  This is not me being clever, this goes back to my mother, which I explained in previous posts, researched Arthurian legend, was part if a society of authors on the subject, and this is why as I child I was taught the story and symbolism of the tarot.  Like I had said, tarot not as divination, but as a story.  I can see the pattern because I was raised on it. I can explain the symbolism if anyone has questions, but my whole theory is turning out to be spot on, so therefore a huge and massive spoiler.  I can clarify symbolism on current and past episodes, but ask me for future details at your own risk of possibly spoiling the season fun for yourself.

    @juniperfish I really like your Merlin and Nimueh theory.  Very intense if the reference is to Clara.

    @bluesqueakpip If there is a Narnia reference to Dawn Treader, it would certainly have to do with the theme of journey to the edge of death, and beyond.  Clara would be Lucy, their names mean the same thing: light.  When I saw the painting I thought of the Loch Ness monster guarding the aisle of Avalon.  I like your theory about Narnia though!  Has me thinking.

    @purofilion I am loving your time signature theory!  I also completely enjoyed the music in this episode.

    This enemy inside the friend thing has my mind making some turns in my overarching theory.

     

    #44054
    Kharis @kharis

    The sonic screwdriver will be back, it has to be, we’ve seen a future version in past episodes.  The glasses are purposefully used because he needs to keep an eye on something, or see it in a certain way, like in Army of Ghosts.

    #44055
    Kharis @kharis

    Possibly traces of Void stuff?  Like before?  Possibly because the damage done between the voids opened up something that let Omega reach into this reality? Maybe Gallifrey is in the Void?

    #44056
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    My new bonkers theory is Moffat is using some themes from Neil Stephenson’s Snow Crash. The alien(s) are using some sort of neurolinguistic lower level assembly code that apparently works to hack humans, Time Lords, maybe many more species.

    This leads me to wonder if Missy will eventually try and set up another version of her Netherverse as an equivalent to the metaverse.

    #44057
    Kharis @kharis

    Didn’t the Master/Missy wear similar glasses in Devil’s End?  Not saying it’s Azal in there, just came to my head that maybe the Master/Missy both needed the glasses to see something more clearly.

     

    #44059
    lisa @lisa

    @kharis The Doctor wore the glasses on Skaro. He was looking for traces of what?
    Traces of Dalek or traces of Dalek nano genes in Clara? Or perhaps traces of other
    stuff in Clara as well. All these new traces in her may be indicating that there is
    about to be a metamorphosis of Clara. Those sunglasses maybe keeping track of her,
    When he put them on and looked at the wall in the Drum was there a reflection of Clara
    there?
    I have to find that part again.

    #44060
    Mersey @mersey

    @mudlark good point. The whole station looked like Enterprise from a bird’s-eye view. Star Wars in the first episode, Star Trek in this one, what next? A Space Odyssey, Battlestar Galactica, Babylon 5? I have no objection.

    I had read some of your comments before I wached the episode and I was a little bit prejudiced. Another lost station, a crew in need, and Doctor ex machina of course. But the writer did a marvelous job. I have no complaints and really enjoyed it though I miss the scredriver. The theory about Doctor-Merlin is just beautiful. I can’t wait for the second part.

    #44061
    Kharis @kharis

    @lisa  GOOD POINT!  I’m also going to go back and look.

    The Doctor is clearly the Merlin/Magician/Fool in this. River said wizards in stories always turned out to be him.  (:

    Possibly the big white box is the resting place of Merlin said to be in the waters of Avalon.

    #44062
    Spider @spider

    Just watched this for the second time. On first watch I wasn’t sure at all, thought it was a bit slow and clunky. However, I had absolutely NO idea it was going to be a 2 parter! That was a lovely surprise! Plus, episode set in Scotland! Yay!

    On second watch it all fell together a lot better. Like the way it builds the tension and then we get the final shocking image, I love how I already knew from Clara’s reaction what we were about to see. And oh MY doesn’t Capaldi look very, VERY spooky as a ‘ghost’. I’ve got chills just thinking about that look.

    The line that didn’t fit at all for me (and didn’t in the trailer either) was ‘I want to kiss it to death’.  That completely jarred for me and didn’t feel right at all. Just … what!?

    Hadn’t twigged at all about any links to the Battlefield episode until read other comments here, but I hope there is more – that was one of my favourite McCoy episodes.

    Clara certainly has snapped right back into overconfident/cocky companion mode (got a feeling some time must have passed for them since the previous episode). So much so that the Doctor is worried. I do like how the nice little moment between them in the Tardis is played. That little scene would never have been in there if this had been a one parter episode.

    Still not a huge fan of the sonic sunglasses, but they work out ok here – although it does make the Doctor look very much as he appears as the ghost with no/black eyes. Wonder if Clara is going to put her foot down after this and demand the sonic comes back!

    Looking forward to what the hell happens next episode!

    (\(\;;/)/)

    #44063
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    JUST dropping back in to say that if the Doc is Merlin then of course Gallifrey is the Isle of Avalon and it’s his job to bring it back – one day…

    @kharis yes your tarot references theme definitely has legs – I don’t want the full spoilery grand theory tho! But will be looking out for major and minor arcana…

    It will be very Moffat, grande troll that he is, to suggest further that Missy and the Doc were once “the lovers” 🙂

    #44064
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    OK, just dropping with first responses. Have not read any other posts as yet.

    Well…a bit of “Prometheus” (god spare us) a bit of “Alien”, a bit of…well lots of things, and a LOT of a computer game. Actually, one of the things that came to mind as I was watching was the brilliant BBC drama from…oh way back when…1981, perhaps, called “The Nightmare Man” directed by Doctor Who alumnus Douglas Camfield. Sorry, but on first screening this episode did not compare well to that.

    Yes, it’s true, I spent 5 hours driving today, so perhaps I wasn’t all fired up in expectation, so…how about I sleep on it, watch it again tomorrow and…who knows?

    But before I go…”You live and then you die. That’s it.” I have always been in favour of the Doctor’s humanist position, but he speaks as if he had never experienced Danny. Still thinking about that one.

    #44065
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    That control panel at the back of the spaceship is the key to all. The corporate guy was studying it before the solitary ghost at the time turned on the engines killing the commander in charge. It appears to be a circle in the middle surrounded by two rings of I believe 9 circles and then another ring with I am not sure how many circles.

    I could not find on a brief web search an obvious occult equivalent of this control panel, but obviously I could be missing something.

    I conjecture this control panel is a super-weapon or can be configured to be a super-weapon. It is therefore possible that the signal is a desperate measure to call in reinforcements to contain this weapon before it is misused.

    I do believe it is the Doctor who is inside the survival capsule.

    #44067
    Kharis @kharis

    @juniperfish  Moffat would. (;

    The Dæmons:

    Okay, the Master is wearing similar glasses in the Daemons as that the Doctor is now wearing, a scientist at UNIT by the name of Osgood is trying to end the argument between science and magic….I could go on.  Maybe this episode is really part two of the The Dæmons.

    In an episode that takes place in legendary Caithness, with the history of The Raven Banner, and an episode coming up called “Face the Raven”  …… probably just a coincidence.

     

    #44068
    Kharis @kharis

    …as in ‘Under the Lake’ is part two to ‘The Daemons.’

    #44069
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Let us not forget the Cloister Bell rang. This is supposed to be an extremely grave threat.

    What if the ship contains the ancient Mesopotamian mythological object of ultimate power, the Tablet of Destiny? Reinterpreting this in the language of Snow Crash, the Tablet of Destiny, that control panel on the back wall with the circles, lists the assembly code that can be used to hack into minds of sentient creatures across the universe and who knows what else. This assembly code may enable the hacking of reality itself. That is why it is ultimate evil yet also so intoxicating to contemplate.

    In myth the Tablet of Destiny was said to be stolen by a bird. In ancient astronaut terms, this bird would have been a space ship.

    #44070
    Anonymous @

    Oh this was wonderful: glorious to wake up to see your comments this morning!

    I was speaking with a friend yesterday (who had already seen the episode via ABCiview) who identified Lunn and reminded me that one of her five sons has this name. Her Irish husband chose the name. Interestingly, as she’s always liked names with certain spiritual attachments, she claims Lunn is associated with expressive people who are analytical, understanding, frequently solitary and introspective. I thought this was intriguing in the character  of Lun (Lunn) in Under the Lake.

    @kharis excellent -with regards to your ‘plot prophecy’.

    @bluesqueakpip,

    I’m positive that the BBC is going to cancel their fourth most popular programme. :roll: It makes so much sense to lose all those International sales, especially after they’ve lost Top Gear as well.

    I couldn’t have said it better myself

    @phaseshift

    her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite 

    an excellent acknowledgment and knowing Moffat, right on the money 🙂

    @mudlark I recall you and others analysing parts of The Ring cycle and Gotterdammerung from which emerged interesting themes. War prophecies are very compelling when viewed in light of a modern programme where we’ve had references to Lonely Gods  -although this is an idea manifestly altered in the past three years and even in the most recent episodes where, as @bluesqueakpip mentioned, the Doctor’s sartorial choices favour that of the everyday ‘working man’ rather than a costume closely resembling that of our past doctors.

    When having to conduct some of the doomy elements of The Ring (and frankly wanting to slit my wrists due to its insufferable repetition), I was nonetheless delighted by the mythology. Dammerung can also mean dawn -and the interplay of light, morning and evening was thoroughly embedded in this plot. Whilst Gotterdammerung is a translation of Ragnarokkr it is in the older Poetic Edda written as Ragnarok; that is, the Fate of the Gods. Ragnarokkr was declaimed as a clever use of the words rok (fate, doom) followed by rokkr meaning darkness and twilight.

    If I recall correctly @phaseshift you were involved in some of these interesting discussions? I recall references to Odin in Gotterdammerung particularly as Brunnhilde wanted to create her own Odin out of Siegfried!

    The references to fire and immersion are most significant when combined with themes of darkness, light, fate and doom.

    @lisa The Doctor had to give Clara a ‘hold on’ with all this overconfidence. Something doesn’t add up about that.

    @spider Clara certainly has snapped right back into overconfident/cocky companion mode… so much so that the Doctor is worried.

    Yes, I think that the “doom” elements I mentioned above tie into this nicely. There is only room for “one of me” says the Doctor as well as “I love adventure as the next man’s man loves adventure, but…”

    As for the “I want to kiss it to death” line, I think @spider this is not unusual for our Doctors who are totally fascinated by the concept ‘bizarre’. Tennant had such longing and interest for the creatures of the universe though his was a considerate and socially aware presence representing a ‘human’ face whereas our present Doctor (under the ‘care’ of Clara) constructs ‘cards’ to tone down more objectionable qualities. 🙂

    @mersey

    Another lost station, a crew in need, and Doctor ex machina of course. But the writer did a marvelous job. I have no complaints 

    Would you have thought there was a Deus ex machina? I guess the largest DEM at all is the Doctor and his Tardis! In the lost station episodes of the past, I don’t recall too many DEMs -certainly The God Complex didn’t present a “lazy DEM” as some procedurals tend to. But there may have been others, in Who, which I missed. One of my fav ‘lost station episodes’ was The Satan Pit and there were a number of clever echoes of this in Under The Lake -barring the Doctor dying of course.

    That was unexpected. Is the Doctor Seigfried – and has he dishonoured a promise (to Missy perhaps a long while ago or to someone else)?

    Kindest, Puro

    #44071
    Kharis @kharis

    @purofilion

    Your Ring theory works with The Raven Banner by Ian Cassells I brought up earlier.

    #44072
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave  -you sir, are brilliant

    I was watching was the brilliant BBC drama from…oh way back when…1981, perhaps, called “The Nightmare Man” directed by Doctor Who alumnus Douglas Camfield

    And yes indeed. As a Czech, I recall the stories on which The Nightmare Man was built: the Vodyanoy or Vonik (Vodnici) were water spirits who collected people and stored the drowned in porcelain coffins and when the top’s removed the soul inside is free. Dvorak composed music using these water sprite themes and a character features prominently in his opera, Rusalka.

    Now, in the Czech version (not in the German Wasserman stories), the Vodnici wait near ponds and fresh water lakes.

    These creatures often used fire to stimulate the curiosity of their victim. We have immersion, fire, twilight, morning, evening as well as porcelain coffins and spirits.

    We’re on fire!!

    @jphamlore

    yes, the circular diagram on the back of the ship was interesting and unfortunately I paid little mind to its significance  -there was SO much going on. Having studied a tiny amount of  Mesopotamian history I have heard of this mythological ‘tablet of destiny’ -but not in terms of Snow Crash? I also think the Doctor is in the capsule of coffin -once out, he is “set free” as the Vodnik’s story goes.

    #44073
    Kharis @kharis

    @jbhamlore  Your theory makes perfect sense.  It does seem extremely foreboding to have the cloister bells going off.  The Tablet of Destiny could create the ghosts.

    #44074
    Anonymous @

    @kharis

    thank you -I must look into the Raven banner

    #44075
    lisa @lisa

    @Purofilion The Doctor says to Clara “there is only room for 1 Doctor -in this dimension-‘
    I found that the ‘this dimension’ extra bit interesting. Later in the episode the scientist
    says ‘well if I die I can come back and haunt you all’ and at that moment the Doctor glances
    at Clara maybe a reference to something lurking in her? Those sun glasses might be about watching
    her. I think he is very suspicious of Clara. So am I. Still think there will be a Clara metamorphosis.

    Everyone that referenced Merlin and the BG episode Battlefield those are very interesting connections.
    Lots of BG references for the Capaldi Doctor. Also the Tarot etc. Raises the bar in fun ways too.

    #44076
    Anonymous @

    @lisa yes, his suspicion of Clara is interesting. When tied into The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, that is most intriguing. I must therefore look at the Act wherein we have the line “I will come back and haunt you all” to see the various reactions. I agree with you: “Still think there will be a Clara metamorphosis.”

    Interesting also with the Nightmare Man and the Vodnici spirits in the Czech and Slovak tales, that they seemed to interact with louder, garrulous men of the species. The introspective beings were left behind. Perhaps that is another reason why Lunn, targeted at first, wasn’t ‘taken’.

    To some extent he’s a receptacle of the words and thoughts of another -this seems demeaning, and I’m not expressing myself well here; whilst he clearly possesses thoughts and feelings of his own, his concern lies elsewhere and for the safety of another. The Vodnici spirits and the Wassermen abducted individuals -generally not a group or a pair ‘like’ Lunn.

    Anyway, I’m reading far too much into all of this!

    #44077
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Let us go for complete bonkers in another direction.

    If I understand correctly, the location of the artifact is Caithness at the northeastern tip of Scotland. At the time it was being investigated it might have been the part of the UK furthest from invasion and also far away from London in case some disaster occurred. It was on land under a dam that could flood the area. What if none of this was an accident. What if a Scottish branch of a precursor to UNIT had a base at Caithness where this artifact was being isolated for study.

    What if the various famous Scottish scientists, engineers, and philosophers were all part of this organization. The first dead guy had what looked a prominent mutton-chop whitish beard. What if he is none other than Charles Lyell, the then head of this organization?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=charles+lyell&biw=1252&bih=545&source=lnms&tbm=isch

    #44078
    Kharis @kharis

    Watch  episode from the third Doctor ‘The Daemons’ and then look at the writing the 10th  Doctor can not translate in the ‘Satan Pit’ plus the words in that episode could transfer into people like in ‘Under the Lake’ and the writing looks very similar.  The two episodes could be a prelude to ‘Under the Lake’ and the next tarot cards ‘The Devil’ and ‘Death’ and possibly the ‘Ace of Swords.’

    #44079
    lisa @lisa

    @jphamlore I wiki’d Lyell and there was a picture of him that very much
    resembles the ghost with the whiskers. He was a famous geologist. I
    wonder if he was also a Freemason? Usually Scottish intellectuals were.
    I think the philosophers stone is part of the masons mythology as well as
    the Merlin story too.

    #44080
    Donnydhuum @donnydhuum

    Hello, new here.  I was bored before the airing of the show, so I was watching some past episodes of Doctor Who.  Luckily, The God Complex was one of them.  That being said, the Doctor states that the first ghost (the one with the beard) is an alien from the planet Tivoli, which is the same race Gibbis belongs to from The God Complex.  He says it when they are all together in the Faraday cage.

    Now, why would a Tivoli, a race who wants to be conquered want to leave their planet, and what could he possibly be hauling?  I mean, the craft was small, and since he was the only ghost, it only makes sense that he was the only crew member.  Also, and this is the big one, who wrote the words in the first place?  Did he, and then he died somehow?  Or did someone else, and then they killed him?  If the first is true, then clearly it was some sort of distress call, and he was hoping to be rescued possibly.  If the second is true, well, then there is something far more sinister afoot.

    #44081
    Kharis @kharis

    @donnydhuum Welcome!  (:   Yes, I caught that too.  Here is a theory, I think the passive alien Tivoli,was just made a pilot for a daemon or devil consciousness.  Watch ‘The Daemons’ and then ‘The Satan Pit’ two part and see what you think.  Just something I’m throwing out into the mix.

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