S33 (7) 8 – The Rings of Akhaten

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@haveyoufedthefish  @juniperfish

I am no expert on those final episodes of Tennant because they were so ghastly (apart from Tennant and Wilf) but if the TimeLords are locked away, wouldn’t the Matrix be locked away with them?

And I am not sure how the Matrix could be the GI. Snowmen showed, rather neatly and effectively in my humble view, that the Doctor created the GI as part of the defeat of the intelligent Snow creature.

Still…as House fed on TimeLord souls, I expect if House came across the released Matrix (assuming it was not locked in with the Time Lords led by Timothy Dalton’s ranting) then House would be the equivalent of Mr Creoste…and consuming a wafer thin TimeLord soul (perhaps Susan’s) would be the end for him…

I think the mention of “granddaughter” must be specific and important, as too will be the moment when the TARDIS was barred to Clara. Just not sure how, apart from what I have said above.

But…given the Doctor has been there before, why didn’t the Doctor intervene then? That too seems a likely avenue for further explanation. And speculation.

And overnight another thought struck me – based a little on how Moffat likes to misguide you by showing you something which is not what it seems until he shows you the rest – the moment in Time for Angels when the Dr is retracing his footsteps and speaks with the blinded Amy; the shooting of the Dr at the Lake. What if we have just seen another in Rings?

At the time I first watched Rings, I was struck, after the Doctor’s big speech, when he was submitting himself to the sun vampire creature, that it looked like it could have been the start of the regeneration process. I was a little shocked. And then I did not know what happened – it did not seem that the creature took the Dr’s essence but I did not really understand why. Clara’s intervention stopped me thinking about it. But..

Have we seen the start of Smith’s regeneration but just don’t know it yet?

Its probably not this at all – but was interested to read about what Moffat would have done had Tennant stayed an extra year and it made me wonder…

Also – has anyone any bright ideas how “Pokers and Tongs” fits in with BSJ – if it does. Pokers and Tongs being ascribed to the Bells of St John’s in the famous nursery rhyme…

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@jimthefish

What is the rumoured title for the final episode of 7.2?

Can you post on spoiler section?

Sorry to be dumb…

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet

Have we seen the start of Smith’s regeneration but just don’t know it yet?

That’s an interesting idea. Not sure if it’s what’s happening here but I think I’ll have a rewatch with this in mind.

But I think it’s certain that if there is indeed a regeneration this year then it will be something a bit special or out of the ordinary.

[EmmOfTheEss @emmoftheess]

I thought the effects were extremely similar to a regeneration too. I also think it was the exact colour as used when he used a bit of regeneration energy on River’s arm last series, so I am with you on that one, @htpbdet…

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Oh and whilst I am on my Egyptian mythology freak out.

I have this to say – River and the Doctor got married on the top of  a pyramid.

Moreover, some folks involved in the “endless war” with future-Doctor, involving the omega-insignia wearing clerics and Kovarian, thought of the Doctor as a god, so much so that Colonel Runaway had to give his troops an inspirational speech telling them the Doctor “…is not a god”.

The Bennu bird (phoenix) was said to have been born by bursting out of the heart of Osiris.

Clara wears a phoenix necklace, as pointed out by @lula . Osiris was a vegetation (leaf deity) and lord of the underworld, as I’ve mentioned. You can see how the Doctor fits Osiris, as he is the lord of the genocide of his own people (pretty underworld) and yet he has recreated the universe, in “Big Bang 2”.  

In essence, apparently, the Benu was considered “a manifestation of the resurrected Osiris”.

source http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/benu.htm 

Ha! So Clara as a manifestation of the Doctor theory gains ground…

I have to say I am both delighted by all the “dying and reborn god” mythology and yet, my anarchist heart is also ambivalent, because that’s what the Doctor was, as far as we knew in Old Who – an ordinary anarchic Time Lord; a rebel, creative, empathic and curious Time Lord with a bad attitude to authority. Not a God.

It does seem likely he”ll forget his “god origins” and go back to that anarchic hobo at the end of Moffat’s cycle, as @jimthefish and @bluesqueakpip and @haveyoufedthefish and others have speculated. 

Keep checking for Egyptology @feralcat and others 🙂

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Finally – Osiris was cut up into separate parts (are you listening to this @phaseshift – I hope your back is doing better btw) and scattered across Egypt (read time and space).

His loving wife Isis had to track down the parts and put them back together again.

So perhaps the Doctor himself is scattered in time and space and Clara is either a manifestiation of this/ him or a River Song avatar or his granddaughter working with River, in other words, the Isis figure, to help him remember and put him back together again.

Incidentally, in the Osiris myth, the only part Isis couldn’t find was his penis, so she had to magically make him a new one.

I am now possibly leaving the earth’s atmosphere, but could the sonic end up being an Osirian phallic symbol in this mythological parallel 🙂

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@juniperfish, if there is one writer in the universe who can manage to work out how to get a “his penis is still missing!” joke into a programme largely aimed at children, that writer is Steven Moffat. 😀

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@bluesqueakpip Yes that’s true – cracked it! <smiles happily and rolls fishy eye>

The Doctor has been overusing his sonic lately thread “On the Sofa” looks like extra fun now 🙂 

<hastily joins the many people who have had to get their coats recently>

 

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@juniperfish

The trouble is that the Doctor has never really regarded himself as a God – he may act like one occassionally but has always eschewed the title and not thought much of those who appointed themselves as gods – Omega, for instance. Face of Evil is about that in a straight forward way.

A post on the Guardian site has made me wonder (again) why I am so stupid. I have been so busy wondering why Hartnell and Susan did not defeat the vampire God on their visit that I completely overlooked the obvious explanation – that it was not a problem when they visited, but only arrived after they left.

So it might have happened because they were there. We do not know anything about that trip of Susan and Hartnell (or some earlier incarnation of Hartnell) but what we do know is that Time Lords are capable of giving their life force energy to others to help them heal – that was established in Planet of the Spiders and made quite clear when the Doctor healed River in Angels Take Manhattan. Suppose, then, that the Doctor healed Susan (or the other way around) while on the planet – in fact, Susan healing the Doctor works better – it establishes a template for a young girl to give energy to a Grandfather. Suppose that was what happened and then over the centuries the ritual has been created – simply because the Doctor and Susan were there and they were watched and thought to be Gods…

On the other hand, there have been rumours of Pyramids of Mars mummies in the final story, and that would mean Sutekh (an alien life force who thought it was a God). And there have been some oblique references to Fires – a phoenix can’t arise except from ash which requires fire – Pokers and Tongs are fireplace implements (And the Bells of St John in the nursery rhyme reference them) and Rings are often forged in fire…

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@htpbdet

The trouble is that the Doctor has never really regarded himself as a God – he may act like one occassionally but has always eschewed the title and not thought much of those who appointed themselves as gods…

Indeed, but his dark doppleganger might not be so averse… perhaps that is what was in Room 101 in “The God Complex” when the cloister bell of the TARDIS chimed – a version of the Doctor who does think he’s a god. 

If Sutehk is coming back I will be delighted – The Pyramids of Mars scared the beejeezus  out of me as a nipper…

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@htpbdet – oh and I love the theory that Susan healed Doctor One with some regeneration energy on their trip to Akhaten and that was imitated and became the mythology of the seven rings… rather a Face of Evil scenario indeed.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@juniperfish

I always thought Room 101 simply contained his mistakes, errors, misjudgments, the things for which he was responsible…

But perhaps a dark doppleganger might be essentially the same thing?

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@htpbdet – doc created GI? Could you elaborate on that? The doc might have inspired it to attack the underground, but it had clearly been posessing simeon for 40 odd years, and we know it had already long called itself the GI because the institute was named after it …

The docs personal room 101 (actually room 11) in the god complex definitely contained a personification, not a thing/concept/idea as the doc says, “I thought it would be you” rather than “I thought it would be this” (or similar)

Strikes me the pheonix has 2 interpretations:
A) pheonix (nu who) bursting forth from classic who (Osiris). Hence worn by Oswin who represents the new show.
B) a pheonix – a non god doctor – bursting from Osiris (current old god doctor), representing the expected upcoming reboot.

Just a passing note btw – joe sings oranges and lemons in the god complex which suggests some connection with the bells of st John ep… God it really is all one big self referencing ball of wool isn’t it. We need angry kittens to unravel this lot.

The camels did immediately make me think of Sutekh – arguably the greatest ever baddie? – and all the other subsequent Egypt references are just reinforcing that first opinion.

If you thought the Osiris sonic penis was a ripe subject for the Moff smut factory, if the GI turns out to be the matrix, imagine how the doc will break it to GI that he has actually “entered you many times” and that his second incarnation may have “left some seeds of myself behind”?

Also I’m still waiting for the GI to demand “the finest wines known to man” …

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@juniperfish – I’m really liking the paradox of the doc and river founding the time lords as a race via exposure to vortex in the tardis (as distinct from rassilon founding their society). It’s a bit saucy for who though, since they’d have to be at it like rabbits …? Unless he’s got more than just 2 hearts …

I don’t know who suggested it but the idea that the reboot begins with the clean slate doc setting forth with his great-granddaughter has a really nice circularity to it too.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@haveyoufedthefish

I may be entirely wrong about this but it seemed to me that when the invasion began in Snowmen, the creature invading was sentient aggressive snow. We see it arrive as snow and it enslaves Simeon as snow. The Dr defeats it as a snow creature and then says something about it having adapted to non-corporeal form. And Vastra and Jenny make sarcastic comments about a disembodied alien intelligence trying to conquer the Earth with snowmen  (Abominable Snowmen) and the London Underground ( Web of Fear). So it seemed to me that the Dr had essentially created the GI as we knew it from those stories and the idea was that those Troughton stories would happen next. Then in BSJ we see the GI back and amassing power – not sure how it was paying for everything mind you.

So – the consequence of Snowmen was the GI as we came to know it when Troughton fought it.

Feel free to correct me – I may have missed something.

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@htpbdet – ah gotcha. My take on it was that the doctor was speculating and trying to reason it out before it became apparent that the GI was behind it all along; with that, all previous guesswork went out the window. That Vastra’s sarcastic suggestion came to pass was both the setup for an ironic gag and also acted as a neat bit of plot exposition without the doc needing to actually say, “oh it wasn’t the snowmen in charge after all but there appears to be have been a disembodied alien intelligence behind them all the time”

Having said that I’ve got confirmation bias – I’d figured it was the GI pretty early on and was just waiting for the reveal. That the doc sort of wished the GI into being is an interesting reading I might simply have been oblivious too (or maybe it was ambiguous, which is even more interesting)

Anyone else want to cast a vote?

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@haveyoufedthefish 🙂

I’m even more excited because I found out that one of Osiris’ names was “Lord of Silence” and  @Magpiejay over on The Guardian pointed out that in the Isis mythology, she gains power over Ra the sun god by learning his sccret name! Cue River Song is Isis in the narrative parallel and I really do think this is going somewhere!

So the Doctor tells River his name so that she can help foil the plans of dark doppleganger Doctor…

On the subject of whether or not the Doctor created The Great Intelligence @htpbdet – I don’t know, I’d have to go back and re-watch. I like the idea, and it does seem The Face of Evil scenario is being referenced a lot. That could be in order to alert us to dark doppleganger Doctor, who might turn out to be ganger Doctor from the Almost People (who was created by the Doctor) but I hope not because he seemed so sweet.

Oh and @phaseshift – your identification of the leaf as a sycamore leaf fits right into the Osiris/ Isis myth. Isis was sometimes depicted as a sycamore tree – and “the only water in the forest is the river”!

I’m still very excited about the whole Osiris deal, can you tell? 🙂

 

[Whisht @whisht]

anyone up for a bonkers theory…?

well, I mean utterly untethered speculation.

If we have 2 Big Bads then the only scene I can imagine is a Mexican Standoff.

The Dr (in a stetson), Sutekh and GI.

With a pocket watch open…

(and hopefully not Murray Golds effing music).

[thommck @thommck]

Hi all, found this forum after googling @bluesqueakpip after seeing you mentioned on the Guardian blog. Can’t believe how balanced and free of trolls this forum seems to be, I didn’t think that was possible in today’s internet age!

Anyway, about this episode, I was really disappointed by it. I wrote a very negative comment on another blog but after reading through all of this maybe some of my original dislikes where actually intended as clues for later on!

It started off with so much promise, great looking Indiana Jones style poster, original (for DW) monsters the steampunk “Vigil” (if that’s what they are called?), begins with reminiscence of Disney’s “Up”, definite Star Wars Cantina vibe but then halfway through becomes dull, confused and loses all pace, despite some great acting.

So below are some points I picked up on from the episode, most of which I thought was bad scripting but maybe it was just my lack of knowledge of Old Who

• The TARDIS not translating all the aliens’ language for Clara – maybe it did but we, as an audience, heard the barking alien in it’s natural tongue. Otherwise it’s quite rude of Clara to do some random barking, who knows what she might have said!
• They make out all these aliens, barely one alike, are all from the same system!? It seemed more of an intergalactic marketplace than a closely linked system. Also, would have been nice to see some classic aliens in there
• The market set looked the same as the one that blue-skinned fat bloke was always in but apparently this is someplace new?
• Sonic Screwdriver holding back The Vigil was completely over-the-top. I can get it being able to hold up the door but creating a force-field seemed ludicrous
• The pyramid had a slight look of Dalek origin but turned out to have no connection, so far anyway.
• Complete waste of The Vigil. What was there point? The girl was going to sing anyway. They were just thrown in as bait to make the episode look interesting. If they could be defeated so easily then they weren’t really a threat? Reminded me of those puppet men in “The Beast Below”
• The tree-like alarm clock looked familiar but in the end turned out to be another unnecessary red herring
• The Doctor looked like he was regenerating in the trailer but that was another trick to garner interest for this ep
• The Doctor’s memories were sucked away which would have made an interesting if not complicated plot twist but 5 minutes later he seems unaffected
• The “God’s” appearance was underwhelming and surely losing an object like the from space would have catastrophic gravitational consequences
• Even though I understand that the leaf was the most important leaf to Clara, hence why so powerful, it already felt like a “villain-defeated-by-words” trope seen so many times before so it lacked impact
• Maybe it was just that I know watch in HD but Clara seemed caked in makeup! What is she trying to cover up!

After reading through the crazy speculation on this forum I’ve changed my mind on a few things and even have some crazy speculation of my own! Would love to hear your ideas on them 🙂

The family connection

• I don’t like the idea of Clara being anything to do with the Ponds. I know that River is likely to be seen in more adventures but I feel that whole family element has been done.
• More appealing is that Clara is the Doctor’s granddaughter. Perhaps when the Doctor said he visited with his granddaughter he was actually referencing this exact trip in a weird deja-vu way. We’ve seen a lot of stuff about memories so maybe that is all part of the mix-up. Also, what if the evil planet God in this ep was a future representation of the Doctor (think Face of Boe), hence why the Doctor’s memories didn’t have any effect on it!
• Another Clara theory is that she is his Mum. Is it generally accepted that the female timelord seen in Tennant’s finale ep (the woman who had her eyes covered behind the other timelords) was the Doctor’s mother? Remember how the Doctor was a clever boy and ran away from looking into the eye of the time vortex. Seems like a motherly bit of advice to me. We’ve also seen her be a guardian to other children who lost their parents. Maybe she isn’t his actual mum but just his guardian?
• I didn’t think Clara’s mum would be important but it was odd how she blatantly spelled out she would always be there to protect her. I now believe it was Clara’s mum that caused her to be spread out through time & space, possibly the result of some paradox. We are bound to have Clara at least asking about visiting her mum. She may even steal the TARDIS to do so as I’m sure the Doctor wouldn’t take her voluntarily.
• Probably my craziest theory is that Clara is a TARDIS. We’ve seen the TARDIS in human form so why not as a companion? Whether Clara would be a new TARDIS or related to the Doctor’s one I don’t know. I’m not sure how that links in to the TARDIS not letting Clara in. I wouldn’t have expected the doors to just open for her even though Clara did. Does that tell us Clara has some displaced memory about it happening before? Does she know the TARDIS is sentient or was it just regular human personification?

Wider speculation

• Although I doubt the Doctor is a parallel to the whole Egyptian God mythology (that would be unoriginal and cheating in my book) the Phoenix symbology could be something to do with him reaching the limit of his regenerations?
• The Doctor seems to be testing Clara a lot. Especially making her give something precious up as currency. What is he trying to prove? Why doesn’t the Doctor just tell Clara about the other versions of herself instead of being sly about it?
• Do we know when the Clara mystery will be solved? Before the 50th anniversary special, during, after or never?!?
• Clara’s father is still about so surely the Doctor will try and interrogate him in a future ep?
• Was the Doctor enjoying the Beano a clue? Dennis the Menace is a cheeky/naughty rebel and always has his companion, Gnasher the dog, around 😉

Apologies if this was too long for people to bother reading. I’m glad I’ve found a fun place to discuss the episodes. Hopefully we won’t spoil it for ourselves by being too clever/random!

[dislikesswimmingalone @dislikesswimmingalone]

Hello everyone, I’m new here but loving the bonkers theories having spent a few days reading through them all. Unfortunately my knowledge of the episodes are not as great as any of yours but after reading some of your ideas and rewatching the four episodes starring JFC something ‘popped’ into my head.

Assuming that JFC as Clara/Oswin appears in all of the remaining episodes of this current series and that my math is correct, she will appear 10 times, making her 50th Anniversary show appearance her 11th. As I understand it JFC was not destined to be in Asylum but Moffat decided, for some reason only known to himself to, to use her. Why? It must be of importance.
Does anyone with better knowledge of the Doctors than I see anything in the idea that in each of Clara’s episodes she may represent one of the Doctor’s previous incarnations…
or
…each episode she is in, is the Doctor is behaving as one of the earlier versions of himself? This would explain Matt Smith’s acting differences as some you have noticed…
or
…do they embody together an particular incarnation in each episode.
Examples:
In Clara’s 2nd appearance, Snowmen, the Doctor makes a big thing of staring in the mirror and talking about his bow tie. Matt Smith has stated his costume and particularly the bow tie was influenced by Troughton. Also 2 seemed often to be a bumbling fool in order that others would underestimate his true abilities and in this episode 11 says “May be I’m an idiot” to which Clara replies “No you’re clever”, does she see through 11, either knowlingly or unknowlingly, and to the truth within himself?

For Clara’s 3rd appearance, Bells, could the reversing of the uploads refer to the iconic line by 3, “Reverse the polarity”. Also 3 liked modified vehicles somewhat like 11’s motorbike.

All rather dodgy points and nothing concrete I know but as I said at the beginning of this post my knowledge is not great but may be one or more of you can see something in this idea.

For those who like to mull over number theory here’s a little something to ponder upon. How often have the numbers 5 & 6 been used recently? I noted in Bells that it was floor 65 of the Shard where Kizlet ran the operations from. (BTW Kizlet is very similar to Kismet (meaning fate or destiny) and the first recorded use of the word in English was by Edward Backhouse Eastwick, spelled kismat, in his 1849 novel Dry Leaves from Young Egypt!)

Clara = 5 Letters
Oswald = 6 Letters
5 is linked to Microcosm
6 is linked to Macrocosm

Everything grows out of three great fundamental principles; 1, 2 & 3. Six is not only 1+2+3 but also 1x2x3 so it is the complete embodiment and expression of all three fundamental energies [RYCBAR123 anyone??? There’s 6 letters to RYCBAR too!].

11 is where 1 meets 1 and facing ourselves is the most difficult job, so it needs strength. Eleven is significantly 5 (microcosm) plus 6 (macrocosm), so it shows us the strength of their being in harmony.

For those with Egyptian theories:
Osiris and Isis are the 6th and 5th gods in the ancient Egyptian ennead. Osiris and Isis are the great grandchildren of the creator god Atum and their famous relationship is the relationship between 6 and 5. Atum’s name is thought to be derived from ‘tem’ meaning to complete or finish and he is considered to be the first god and therefore the god of pre-existence and post-existence.

…and then some other random stuff..

The Snowflake and The Flower
6 is the number of structure. The hexagon is used for structure at all scales in the universe from the microcosm to the macrocosm. Snowflakes are always hexagonal.
5 is the number of life. All trees bearing fruit we can eat have blossoms with 5 petals.

Sorry about all the 5’s and 6’s and probably totally irrelevant but I do love numbers, mathematics is after all the language of the universe. How relevant have numbers been in the past to Moffat’s storylines?

Cheers all and keep up with those bonkers theories!

[Anonymous @]

@thommck– well, I for one read your post all the way through!

I agree with almost everything you said (although I didn’t notice the ‘caked in makeup’ issue), and thoroughly enjoyed your theorising.  The whole mothering / governessing issue has to be a major plot point, imo.  Clara as guardian / granddaughter / TARDIS?  She could, of course, be all three at the same time.  (well, both TARDIS and granddaughter is a stretch, but then River had a ‘time head’ from being conceived on the TARDIS, so perhaps a granddaughter with a time head herself?)

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet and @haveyoufedthefish — my understanding of The Snowmen is the same. Sentient snow transformed into the Great Intelligence by the Doctor.

However, I prefer the Matrix becomes the GI theory personally. Because (a) doesn’t this render the end of The Web of Fear a nonsense? If the GI was the Doctor all along then why does it want to absorb his mind at the end of that story? And b) it blows my the GI was partially Doctorised by the denouement of the Web of Fear and leading to the looming doppleganger Big Bad scenario.

[Anonymous @]

@dislikesswimmingalone– you, and the other participants mentioning number theories, make me wonder – if you are correct – just how fiendishly clever Stephen Moffat is.  He not only has to fold in references to earlier Doctors / adventures (and your theories here are quite extraordinary!), but also ensure that any numbers used are not random but have meaning; and, of course, write a cracking adventure that makes sense even to the viewer who is ignorant of earlier characters / plotlines and mathematics (like me).

I must be frank and admit that when I used to participate on the Guardian’s episode blogs, I would get a bit frustrated at all the theorising going on, the attention to meaningful detail, and how it seemed that only certain people could really enjoy the show.  Something has changed in the last year for me, and it’s directly related to actually paying attention to, and pondering, all of these theories.  I’m starting to be in awe of the massive amount of effort that goes into each new D0ctor Who episode, whilst at the same time serving up a light soufflee of enoyable family entertainment.  There truly is something for everyone in this programme!

[dislikesswimmingalone @dislikesswimmingalone]

@Shazzbot – I am not so sure on number theories myself but I do know Stephen Moffat likes to play with us. Who knows what his beliefs are or what books he reads but if there is anything in the number clues or past links then as you say he is fiendishly clever. It cannot be an easy task to satisfy the modern audience and those of us old enough to have watched the earlier seasons. I didn’t watch a lot of the nu Who when it came back to our screens as it just wasn’t like the old stuff of my memories but trying to find links and clues to the overall story from the beginning is challenging and has engaged me in a way I thought the modern Who would never do. May be I’m looking for something that just isn’t there.

[ardaraith @ardaraith]

Oh!! @dislikesswimmingalone  that is juicy!!

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Welcome to @dislikesswimmingalone and @thommck to our Who haven, kindly set up by our webmaster @craig and presided over by our mods @phaseshift and @jimthefish

@thommck I doubt the Doctor is a parallel to the whole Egyptian God mythology (that would be unoriginal and cheating in my book)…

Really? <clutches glorious parallel possessively> Literary references and parallels are the stuff of fiction! I don’t think the Doctor is going to turn out to be actual Earth-Osiris, just that Moff is making use of this mythology in verrrrrrrrry interesting ways…

Yes, others have wondered whether Clara could be a TARDIS. But we know a human body can’t contain a TARDIS matrix for very long. Oh – maybe that’s why she keeps dying? Although, she survived this time… I like the idea, although Idris was so glorious it might be too soon for a repeat…

I’m still in love with the idea that in the future, one of the Doctor’s companions could turn out to be the Master’s TARDIS in human form, unbeknownst to the companion themselves initially – cue angsty divided loyalties. Who came up with this excellent idea? I think it was one of us but I can’t remember who – step up to claim the credit!

@dislikesswimmingalone Well if you love numerology you must play with our resident expert @bluesqueakpip !

I think the idea that Smithy is playing a different incarnation of himself in each episode is excellent. We’ve seen prop nods to previous Doctors already, as folk have pointed out (fez, bow-tie, scarf, anti-grav motorcycle reminiscent of Bessie) but if he’s actually playing each of his previous incarnations that would fit with the Osiris parallel (you see I’m not letting it go), re the Doctor himself being somehow broken up into parts and scattered.

This would be SO brilliant, and explain the acting inconsistencies some have complained about, as you say. If the Doc offers anyone a jellybaby in upcoming episodes I will be sold!

@Shazzbot  – re honkers theorising – you have been assimilated 🙂

 

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@Shazzbot – I can see how the theorising could be annoying (“just enjoy the show, dammit!”) but I suspect in our heart of hearts, none of us really want to guess the plot, we want to be as delightfully surprised as anyone else by what actually transpires.

But it gives us another layer to enjoy, to revel in the universe the show exists in between episodes. And how much sweeter it is when, despite all our million genius theories, we still get wrong-footed by clever Mr Moffatt. It’s like a high stakes game of I-Spy, and I think its one that the showrunners have deliberately cultivated and Moffatt taken to some kind of art form.

@dislikesswimmingalone – I’m not sure about all the number symbology – my you have *really* been thinking about this though! – but great work on spotting all those 5 and 6 reference! The most obvious explanation though is simply 5 + 6 = 11 surely?

I love the idea that in each Clara episode, the doc is channelling a different doctor, and it crosses over a little with my idea that the feel of each episode is reflecting “the times” of each doctor (bond-like Bells, Star Wars like Rings etc). I also think an actorly challenge like that is something Matt would jump at (if not indeed the one who thought of it in the first place)

@jimthefish & @htpbdet – dang it 😀 ! I bow to your better observation and judgement (maybe I should actually put the Ipad down when watching – just a thought..)

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Rather than the Doctor playing different incarnations in each episode, how about if the Doctor is splitting apart as we watch? They hinted at that in the ganger story; the ganger had problems bringing all the different selves together. Perhaps ‘the madman in a box’ is becoming increasingly unable to ‘hold himself together’.

As you say, @juniperfish, that would explain both the acting inconsistencies, and @htpbdet‘s feeling that Smith is sometimes ‘acting’ rather than ‘being’ the part. It’s the Doctor who is acting the part of the Doctor, presenting a persona, a mask.

The Isis/Osiris mythology is a good bet, given that Egyptian mythology is being referenced by the incredible number of pyramids popping up. Christian mythology (using the ‘sacred narrative’ sense of the word) is almost certainly being referenced as well. Broadcast dates have been altered to hit Easter – that’s a hint.

Rebirth and redemption – the Doctor probably isn’t actively looking for rebirth, but he’s certainly looking for redemption and forgiveness. He’s said so.

 

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@thommck – great comments, quite a few probably chime with the common criticism that the 45 min runtime doesn’t allow the plot to breath, and great ideas/designs (e.g. the vigil) get wasted because there’s just not enough time (I personally feel about 75 mins is an idea runtime for a stand alone story. Got that Peter “set aside a week to watch this baby” Jackson?)

In defence of this ep – I thought it has some of the snappiest dialog the shows ever seen: “I’ve seen bigger”, “really”, “are you joking!!! Have you seen the size of that thing!!!!” was just a joy to let wash over you, like a classic screwball comedy (you can see why spielberg snapped up moffatt to add dialog polish).

[PhileasF @phileasf]

Hi all, new here. I’ve been lurking at the Guardian blog for a year or so, but never felt moved to speak. Now I don’t even feel moved to listen. It’s become a nasty place.

Here are my thoughts about the Rings of Akhaten. (In summary: I liked.)
Clara
For every piece of the puzzle we fill in, more mysteries appear. How did her mother die? Where’s her father? Was he born on the day Quatermass premiered? The leaf seems like a contrived ‘meet-cute’; that is to say, on the surface it appears that some powerful or clever being has contrived their getting together by engineering this seemingly random event. Is a falling leaf as easy to manipulate as a snowflake? Has Clara been carrying around a little piece of GI all her life? Or is the leaf incident no more unlikely than the way everyone actually meets in real life? Every encounter is equally the result of countless coincidences and improbabilities.

If Clara is somehow a personification of Doctor Who (the show, that is) can we infer anything from this? Twice dead (1989 and 1996) and now thriving in the 21st century. As a governess, she educates and entertains other people’s children… but the Dads love her too. Oswin is a junior entertainment manager — is ‘junior’ a rank, or is ‘junior entertainment’ a description of her job? Was Oswin in charge of providing children’s entertainment on the starship Alaska? She’s progressed from being completely non-technical to a computer genius — could this parallel the low production standards of the original series evolving into the state-of-the-art show we know today? But if Clara is the show, does that give us an insight into her mysteries? Not that I can see.

The Leaf and the Ring
Clara’s relics of her parents are a leaf and a ring. A (once-)living thing and a manufactured thing. Flesh and metal. She seems to worry that she’s the Doctor’s leaf/ring, something he wants to keep around as a sentimental reminder of someone he loved. The other Claras wanted the Doctor to remember; this Clara wants him to forget them. I think we will be seeing this ring again some time. The Master backed himself up in a ring, didn’t he? I think we’ll be seeing more of Clara’s mum…

The Beano Summer Special 1981
What was in the Beano Summer Special of 1981? On the cover, Dennis the Menace wears a cowboy hat. A stetson? Stetsons are cool. There was no Doctor Who on TV in the summer of 1981. It was in the midst of the show’s first long hiatus. Was it about this time that John Nathan-Turner wrote ‘The Doctor’s Wife’ on a BBC whiteboard?

The Doctor reading the Beano, especially the reveal of the Doctor by the lowering of the book, reminded me a lot of the opening scene of the movie Doctor Who and the Daleks, where Doctor Who reads a pulpish-looking book about monsters from outer space. Or was it Daleks Invasion Earth 2150?

The Episode
There was a certain Doctor Who at the Proms quality to it — those live stage shows they do each year. I sort of enjoy them, but have never stayed awake through a whole one. This has more to do with the way I always start watching them at 2am after watching lots of episodes of Doctor Who and then discovering there’s a Doctor Who at the Proms DVD extra, than with the shows themselves. They’re a mix of music and nostalgia and live Doctor Who adventure with audience participation by a nervous child. Merry is a sort of fan — she knows all the songs (which are also stories), like the kids plucked from the audience at the proms.

The audience in the arena is more or less watching a Doctor Who episode playing out live in front of them. I like to think the Doctor and Susan are in that crowd. No doubt they’ve accidentally sold the TARDIS to that dog lady while hiring a bike and are trying to keep their heads down and avoid interfering while they try to get it back. What would the young Doctor make of what he sees? No doubt he’d recognise the old Doctor as himself. He might find the show inspiring and wonder why he isn’t out there saving the little girl. Next time I’m here, he thinks.

Much has been made of Clara’s inability to understand the dog lady. However, there are precedents for the Doctor’s companions being unable to understand random aliens. Martha couldn’t talk to the Hath in the Doctor’s Daughter. No-one but the Doctor seems to understand the Judoon. And we know the Doctor can talk to animals and babies, while the TARDIS doesn’t translate those for his companions. I wouldn’t read too much into it. Clara could understand Merry, who we can presume wasn’t speaking English, so clearly the telepathic circuits are working for her. I think the communication problem just reinforces the sense of being a stranger in a strange land.

Likewise I wouldn’t read too much into the TARDIS doors failing to open for Clara. As has been widely pointed out, you need a key. It was, however,  odd for Clara to suggest that the TARDIS doesn’t like her, when it should be obvious to her why the doors won’t open. So perhaps she’s voicing an impression that has nothing to do with the doors failing to open.

I liked the Doctor’s little speeches. I think his pep-talk to Merry might be a key moment. Clara’s the impossible girl, but aren’t we’re all equally the result of aeons of improbable events coming together to make us happen? Maybe Clara’s secret will be that there’s no secret. She’s just an impossible girl who’s no more impossible than every other impossible girl and boy.

[Anonymous @]

@PhileasF – Hi, I’m new here too, and here for the same reasons as you.  I suspect that once more of the G’s commenters learn about this place, they too will migrate.

@Bluesqueakpip & @dislikesswimmingalone – It’s really plausible that Matt is playing different versions of the previous Doctor incarnations, and for all the reasons NeedsASwimmingPartner mentions.  I’m really bothered by the Doctor’s absence in the market in this episode – did he have slightly different mannerisms / speech styles before-and-after that mysterious disappearance?

[Anonymous @]

@phileasf — welcome. That’s a great post for a first one, I must say. Lots to chew over there. I like the idea of Doc 1 and Susan being in the crowd.  And the speculation about the ring is kinda cool too. Maybe as @juniperfish says Clara might indeed be the Master’s TARDIS in human form and she’s looking after her ‘owner’ in ring form. Clara’s mum is the The Master?

You’re dead right btw. When we first see Cushing’s Doctor he is reading a copy of The Eagle comic — erstwhile home to Dan Dare…

[thommck @thommck]

@Shazzbot The Doctor’s disappearance was very odd, to leave Clara alone in the strange world, although I think I can remember previous Doctor’s vanishing for no apparent reason just to give companions a bit of room to breath (or be tested).

Was he in the TARDIS during that time so it was him not letting her enter? We’ve seen before the TARDIS opening at will or the Doctor’s finger-snapping so a key is neither here nor there.

What puzzled me more was why he was eating one of those blue cakes/fruit when Clara had already said they weren’t very nice.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

Wild theory #87,324

As the Time War starts, the Dr hides his daughter (hidden as a human, fob watch style) on Earth. He returns to get the rest of his family but his mother sends him packing, saying “Run you clever boy, and remember” and packs him off with baby Susan to go find a TARDIS. And reunite Susan with his mother. He goes. But, while he and Susan are visiting Jim The Fish on Akhaten, he and his TARDIS are captured during events in the Time War and he is separated from Susan. The Doctor escapes and commences a lifelong journey to find Susan. River ( who is not related to Susan; she is the Dr’s second wife) finds Susan and she deposits Susan with the humanised mother ( who does not know who she really is) knowing the trauma of separation of child and mother.  River unmasks Susan’s mother to explain things to her and Susan’s mother uses mind control over Susan’s step-father to stop him from remembering the truth about Susan and builds into the mind control an immunity from pain/distress over the death of his wife (her). River leaves after Susan’s mother resumes her human guise. The Master, who is the father of Susan and the son-in-law of the Doctor, together with the GI or Omega Or Sutekh or Someone or all of them comes after Susan, (who has not been disguised as a human because they only have one chameleon device and she is young and radiates less power) Susan’s mother is unmasked by the Master and dies to protect Susan, giving her the ring ( which she steals from the Master) which does for Susan what the fob watch does.  Susan runs and hides – the prying eyes looking for Time Lords cannot find her. The Master leaves, blaming Earth for his failure and returns to the Time War. But when the Time War ends, there is a feedback of temporal energy causing the McGann Dr to regenerate and unexpectedly affects Susan –  parts of Susan’s hidden life are separated from her, dissipated in time and space.  When the Time Lords are temporarily released as Tennant’s life ends, some of the power of the Matrix awakens lost thoughts in the hidden human Susan ( now Clara ) but she does not understand them. She is a bit lost. Then she encounters the Doctor and BSJ begins….the story progresses and when the 11th Doctor falls at Trenzelore (? Spelling), Clara’s ring is destroyed and she realises who she is. Tennant’s Dr, happily  travelling with Rose, suddenly feels Susan’s presence and comes to find her. But the original Doctor, the Hurt/Hartnell incarnation, who has never stopped searching for her, arrives, now having felt her location in the Universe – the TARDIS takes him where he is needed. They all have a brief reconciliation, deal with what must be dealt with to overcome the Trenzelore issues and then the Hurt/Hartnell Doctor gives up his future lives to save The Eleventh Doctor, so that the errors and mistakes of the Eleventh Doctor’s past become an alternative timeline/are wiped away – leaving the 11th Doctor to regenerate with a clean slate or to go forward with a clean slate, travelling with his grand-daughter, Clara/Susan.  The Tennant Dr is affected by what happens knowing that his future and his past have changed forever and he returns to the TARDIS with Rose with heavier hearts than she has seen him bear the burden of. He looks at her and decides that, given there is nothing to lose, he may as well give in to her greatest wish and feigning joy he takes her for a holiday – and they end up at the start of Army of Ghosts…

Okay – I need a gin and tonic….

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@htpbdet  Cripes!

Hang on – the Master is Susan’s Dad?

You have been at the Kool Aid today 🙂

Why would the Master be “after” Susan in a bad way, and during the Time War in particular? Wasn’t that one of the few times the Master and the Doctor were actually fighting on the same side?

I know the Master is a wrong ‘un but would he really be up for handing his daughter over to dodgy aliens unknown just to get at the Doctor?

I am up for Time Lord family dramas in space however 🙂

And just to mix it up, let’s not forget that Time Lords can regenerate in male or female bodies if they so choose (thanks Corsair for this addition to canon).

Oh teensy request, to you and other recent long posters – can you break it up into shorter paragraphs please? I use shorter paragraphs on the interwebs deliberately (as you can see) because it makes posts much easier for others to read. Thank you kindly.

Looking forward to the second installment!

[Anonymous @]

@HTPBDET – wow, I’ve not read much fan-fiction but that was a corker!  I have a question:

“… the ring (which she[Clara’s/Susan’s mother] steals from the Master) which does for Susan what the fob watch does…” — but Clara takes it off in this episode.  Wouldn’t that cause problems?

In general, it seems fairly obvious that The Master will have to be involved in the upcoming plot, seeing how important he was in original Who and integral to happenings in nu Who.

A thought perhaps for another thread, as it’s not strictly related to this episode, but … Who votes for a clean-slate-reboot after the 50th?  Or do Moffat’s complex arc/story tendencies – plus his obvious reverence for the entire history of Who – make you think that post-50th we will still have echoes of everything that’s gone before?

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@juniperfish

Sorry, I know I prattle on…

I did not mean the Master was after his daughter in a bad way – just that he wanted to find her, perhaps because he was playing a double game with his allies.

And @Shazzbot, I was going with the notion that the ring has to be broken for the chameleon protection to fade.

It’s just a way to try to make sense of what we know to date. It almost certainly cannot have any bearing on what Moffat proposes.

But….I do think that Smith will regenerate in the Anniversary Special or soon after and that Moffat proposes that the next show runner will have an entirely new plate – when and if  12th Doctor meets the Daleks, he/she will  not know who they are…

[ardaraith @ardaraith]

@phileasf – That was beautiful storytelling.

@thommck – The fruit bit stuck out to me, as well.  As did the Doctor using his sonic to ‘test’ it.  Since when did he start testing things, unless River was around to chastise him?  Could he have gone back for the piece Clara bit into, and taken it into the TARDIS for more testing – which is why the door was properly locked?

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@htpbdet

I’m just teasing 🙂 Please continue…

In fact, speculation crossed with fan fiction is one of my favourite things (I like hybrid things).

Soooooooo – for the Master to return, the Time Lock has to be broken (which I’ve been convinced is going to happen for ages). The Time Lords will return to the universe! A new heaven and a new Gallifrey (for the old heaven and the old Gallifrey have passed away) to go with a rebooted Doctor.

I’d actually like a “throw us all off balance” story where the villain is dark doppleganger Doctor and the Master has to help other Doctor and River and Rose sort it all out. So, yes, if Susan meant something to both the Master and the Doctor, that would help…

The reboot theory is one @jimthefish and @bluesqueakpip support.

@Shazzbot I don’t think it will be a total reboot because (as I’ve said before) of the power of merchandise! The Beeb has 50 years worth of Who products to sell and so some continuity between the last 50 years and the next 50 needs to be maintained. I do remember however, that Tom Baker’s Doctor had his mind wiped after wielding the De-Mat gun on Gallifrey in The Invasion of Time because the knowledge was too terrible to retain, so our current Doctor may indeed end up with the memory of who he really is (some kind of origins of the Time Lord Osiris figure with dark and light sides) wiped again, after he “runs and remembers”.

Vegetation deities are sacrified and reborn to help fertilise the world.

As @bluesqueakpip says, the Doctor is looking for redemption after the genocide of his people, so a sacrifice on his part which did bring forth a new heaven and a new Gallifrey would be mightily appropriate.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

Huh – double posted for some reason. So this one’s just a fishy wave at everyone!

[dislikesswimmingalone @dislikesswimmingalone]

@phileasf – Not sure what was in The Beano Summer Special 1981 but the cover clearly shows a dolphin. I vaguely remember a line in A Christmas Carol along the lines of not thinking sky shark but dolphin, not too sure what relevence dolphins have had in DW before. So long and thanks for all the fish…

@juniperfish – I’m with you on the use of Osirian mythology, it does seem to fit.
@bluesqueakpip – I love the idea that the Doctor is fragmenting in some way and we are witnessing it, it fits nicely with a few theories I’ve read on here.

@haveyoufedthefish – “The most obvious explanation though is simply 5 + 6 = 11 surely?” Agreed and may be I am thinking too much (not drinking enough) but many cultures have attributed ideas to numbers. For example, many cultures believe 1 to be a primordial unity and often a masculine principle. 2 is seen as balance (two sides); the dual nature of being and the opposing feminine principle. 3 represents the Trinity, the manifestation into the physical, the three stages of universe, the three stages of life, the whole – as it contains the beginning, a middle and an end. etc etc blah blah blah. I was just wondering if Stephan Moffat ever used numbers in DW as a relational tool and wandered a little to far down that path in my enthusiasm.

@htpbdet  – wow! I need a gin and tonic myself after that!

@thommck & @ardaraith – the fruit thing stuck out to me too. He clearly seemed to be enjoying it so why did he not eat it when Clara did and after ‘testing’ it.

Does anyone know what effect giving Amy the bracelet to protect her from the nanogene cloud in Asylum would have had upon the Doctor. Since Oswin wiped the Doctor from the Daleks collectively shared knowledge is he forgetting who he is too as he slowly turns into one of them from the lack of protection?

[Anonymous @]

@Juniperfish – “… the power of merchandise!”

Oh, heck.  I was trying to be all arty-farty and you come over all commercialistic.  🙂  But practical.  Yes, of course, they couldn’t have a completely clean slate because Dalek and Cybermen figurine sales would slump.

And hopefully the other Time Lords – including The Master and (hopefully hopefully) another nemesis from his own race/planet will continue to feature – ooooh, I just had a sneaky thought.

We should have a census taken on what we think the next major Gallifreyan character beginning with ‘The’ will be.  ‘The Teacher’?  ‘The Governness’?  Maybe I’ll cross-post this over on The Sofa thread or another more pertinent than this one (which is ostensibly still about the last episode to air).

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet — certainly lots in there. Possibly too much to cram into a one-hour anniversary special. I like the idea of John Hurt as the first Doc — although I would have thought they’d just use David Bradley as he’s playing him in the docudrama.

But I’m beginning to suspect that you’re take on Doc 10 and Rose might be true. I think we’re almost certainly looking at Doc 11 (or a doppleganger) turning out to be the Big Bad. It’ll probably weigh heavily on him and as @bluesqueakpip said elsewhere could end up being the reason why he was reluctant to regenerate.

@juniperfish and @shazzbot — I’m definitely thinking a big reboot is coming but not that it will essentially wipe out the last 50 years of Who-lore. Just that possibly the rebooted Doc might not have that detailed a memory of it all…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@jimthefish – it has occurred to me that if Ten does have advance knowledge, that would not only retcon his terror of regenerating, it would also retcon that definitely-a-bit-over-the-top ‘farewell tour’. It not only becomes the Doctor’s last chance to make sure his friends are okay, but it’s also his last chance to effectively say ‘this is how I want you to remember me’.

Though given that dopplegangers are a bit of a theme, it wouldn’t surprise me if David Tennant ends up playing Ten when he was companionless and also 10.5 with Rose.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

 
@JimThe Fish

I thought the Anniversary Special was 90 mins long?

And a reboot that wipes the past from the Doctor in his timeline does not mean it never existed. Alternative universes and all that. Moffat’s first season made that clear.

Don’t forget that David Bradley is playing William Hartnell  – not the Doctor…

@juniperfish

It is not necessary for the Time Lock to be broken for the Master to return. If events have already happened to the Doctor, but we haven’t seen them, well the Master can appear anytime.

I feel – I am not sure why I feel so strongly about this, but I do – that somehow Clara will be Susan or the TARDIS. I was just trying to think of a way it could be Susan…and that was what I came up with. Of course, we know that the Anniversary Special has Zygons and the Brigadier’s Daughter and possibly Elizabeth 1 but none of those characters could unpuzzle Clara.

I guess time will tell.

I am actually excited about the return of the Ice Warriors. I hope it is good – bit worried about Gatiss saying in Radio Times that there is “something else” about the Warriors….what? A female commander? They suddenly have the power to turn invisible? They take off their helmets? They don’t speak with sibilancy? They read Beano?

[Anonymous @]

@HTPBDET – “there is “something else” about the Warriors….what? A female commander? They suddenly have the power to turn invisible? They take off their helmets? They don’t speak with sibilancy? They read Beano?”

They are violently allergic to Jammy Dodgers.

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@Shazzbot LOL jammy dodger allergy 🙂

@htpbdet

Mmmmn yes I’ve wondered about whether the Doctor hasn’t been tempted to go back to a point in the Master’s time-stream before he was sucked into the Time Lock, and before he was hiding out as Professor Yana, just to spend some time with the only other Time Lord (to our present knowledge) to have escaped the Time War.

It would make a lovely little fan fic. Perhaps the Doctor would do it in disguise and just end up getting drunk with the Master in some alien bar and the Master would be in a really good mood because he’d be thinking he’d pulled!

The Doctor would be trying to hide the fact that he’s getting teary and sentimental, because, they may be old adversaries but the Master is all he has left of home…

 

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

*lights pipe* Time for a couple of theories:

1) The ‘woman in the shop’ mentioned in BoJ will be the Doctor’s granddaughter Susan.  I’ve no evidence to back this up, other than the Doctor suddenly mentioned her in this episode.  From what we know of previous Moff series, he usually plants all the clues in the present run.  As neither Rose or River have been mentioned for a while, I’m going for Susan. *puff puff*

2) Egyptian imagery plus Clara’s Phoenix necklace both hint at a renewal of some sort.  I hate to think it *sobs, and nearly puts out pipe* but a regeneration looks like it is in the offing.  It would certainly fit in with Clara’s comment about chapter eleven of the book ‘Summer Falls’ making you cry.

 

[ardaraith @ardaraith]

Good grief.  I just re-watched AOTD and the catch phrases are littered throughout the entire ep.  As soon as the Doctor, and crew, are on board the Dalek ship, Rory asks how much trouble they are in.  The Doctor responds, “Out of 10?  11!”  Then he tells Amy to, “make them remember you.”  Why would Amy need to make the Dalek’s ‘remember’ her?  When the music starts playing, the Doctor does this strange thing (which could easily just be the use of humour to buy him time)…He says, “It’s me. … I got buried in the mix.”  This was in response to the Dalek’s asking what or who was responsible for the music.  Later on the planet, the Doctor tells Amy that the nanocloud converts you by transforming, “your feelings, your memories.”

Of course, poor Oswin has the catch-phrases of her ‘first time out’ and “show me the stars.”

Have the Daleks converted the Doctor?  and are there discussions on this forum regarding that episode?? 🙂

[Anonymous @]

@chickenelly – “… a regeneration looks like it is in the offing.  It would certainly fit in with Clara’s comment about chapter eleven of the book ‘Summer Falls’ making you cry.”

Being a children’s show, as ostensibly Doctor Who is [regardless of me now being assimilated into the adult world of bonkers DW theories ( ! ) ], making the protagonist also the antagonist could also make children cry.

Nothing like watching one’s hero doing all the wrong things, to be utterly devastating.

RTD ramped the bombastic emotionalism at the end of his tenure up to Spinal Tap’s 11;  but not having watched those episodes with children, I have no idea if they would make children cry.  I think not; they are more affected by being abandoned by their heroes.

Or their mothers.  Or at least, being lost and not found by their mothers … (steals a sneeky puff from that pipe)

[Author]

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