Companions past and present

Home Forums General Companions past and present

This topic contains 924 replies, has 132 voices, and was last updated by  MagicKirin 12 months ago.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 924 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #13867
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @scaryb

    Amy isn’t always meant to be likeable on screen, her first reaction is often defensive, but her heart’s in the right place. she’s a “nippy sweetie” as we say in these parts

    A great description. There are plenty of people like Amy (some would say I live with one – not me obviously, she packs a wicked punch 😀 ), and they can be drawn to people who aren’t like them at all. Some good solid relationships can be built around opposites attracting, and they help knock the rough edges off each other.

    It’s enough to turn any teenager’s head. But the point of it was that it wasn’t reciprocated and she grows out of it, and into real life instead.

    Yes, so much was made in comments about a supposed “love triangle” between Amy, Rory and The Doctor in comments even into series 7, but it was never there on screen. It’s made pretty clear the Doctor always views her as the child he met.

    #13876
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Amy & Rory as meta-references

    You could see A & R as metaphors for fans.

    Amy is the BG fan. The Dr landed in her life at a very early age. She grew up believing in him, while the adults around her said he wasn’t real.  He leaves her for a while (the Gap) but then comes back full force and she can travel with him as an adult.

    Rory is the AG fan. They travel with the Dr but also continue with their real lives. Just as we viewers do – some of us spend more time with the Dr than others! Brian is the casual fan, who dips in and out of the odd episode. But he also understands the obsession and is the one who tells them to keep doing it 🙂

    (Still working in the end for this theory! Not sure about where them losing their real life because of travelling with the Dr leaves us, LOL. Although they do go to another place where they are happy, but not with the Dr )

    (Note: I know most (probably all) of this is not original, but I thought it was worth bringing in here). I blame @bluesqueakpip mostly, with her close analysis of 7.2 But I think closer analysis of all of Moff’s tenure as showrunner would probably confirm that his companions are metaphors for the show itself and the fans.

    Clara travels once a week. She’s the fan who joined during AG.  She doesn’t know all of the back history, though she respects it, so can change it if required. Or she’s the scriptwriter.

     

    #13897
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    The easiest way to ensure Who is put into back hiatus is to create something that you need to be a fan to get.

    All shows are dependent on maintaining week-to-week ratings in order to avoid cancellation/hiatus.  This requires as large a group of regular viewers (aka fans) as possible, since the odd one-off week of high ratings that occasional viewers might generate just won’t cut it for ensuring viablity. Consequently, the focus is going to be on making sure that fan base keeps coming back. That means that inside jokes and recurring elements that you have to be a fan to “get” will occur in pretty much any show.

    As I pointed out before, if SM really wanted to show something like that, then they really needed to add some aging into the make-up mix.

    Perhaps travel in the Tardis has some sort of aging-reduction effect, so that 10 years of travelling results in only 3 or 4 years of apparent aging?

     In BG, the Doctor’s control of the Tardis was almost non-existent which is why the AG narrative of dropping Companions back into their lives periodically didn’t occur back then.

    By the way, I think BG concept worked better the Doctor randomly dropped into a situation where there was an issue to solve (and of course the off-screen adventure in between were holidays if you like).

    The Doctor stole the Tardis from Gallifrey, so it’s not surprising that he couldn’t control in in the early days. It would be highy implausible, however, if he didn’t learn to control it after several hundred years of crisscrossing time and space.

     In the AG narrative you almost have to ask just why the Doctor arrives at the right place at the right time given he can pilot the Tardis pretty much wherever he likes.

    “You didn’t always take me where I wanted to go” – the Doctor

    “No, but I always took you where you needed to go.” – the Tardis (as Idris) in The Doctor’s Wife

    Via the Time Vortex, the Tardis can see all of time and space, so the Doctor showing up “at the right place at the right time” is hardly surprising.

    #13904
    Nick @nick

    @Madscientist72

    I don’t disagree with the thrust of your comments of course, but I do with the specifics.

    1. Any TV show needs to keep a base of recurring  watchers who we might call “fans” of the show. However, even if we say 60 % of the audience is a recurring watcher (some 4.2 million people a week) I’d say if 1 % were fans in the sense we use here (42,000 people in the UK alone) then this and other sites would be packed to the gills, merchandise (books, games, DVD etc) would all be well up on the best seller lists etc. My point is I don’t think there are actually that many fans really. The point I’m making is that I’m one of those 42,000 and If the depth of Moffat’s design for Amy/Rory relationship arc wasn’t obvious to me until the discussion above, then what hope do many of the 4.2 million have ?

    2. Of course I agree he ought to be better in generation 11 than in 1 in his ability to operate the Tardis (he’s had at least 900 years to read the user guide after all). But if he can steer it (because he’s fixed whatever major  technical problem that this obsolete Tardis had when he borrowed it), you have to ask how does he keep being in the right place at the right time ?

    Your answer, part taken from the show is what I would call a Moffatism. By which I mean a fairly throw away line/explanation in a story to explain why something the result of which appears to radically change the nature of the show itself by giving rise to more problems than it solves in my opinion.

    Via the Time Vortex, the Tardis can see all of time and space, so the Doctor showing up “at the right place at the right time” is hardly surprising.

    my inference: The Time Lords have built an unknown number (probably hundreds) of Tardis capable of this feat. Wow. With this power they can really rule the universe without breaking a sweat. Just think of the Galiffreyan equivalent of the NSA using essentially unlimited storage and processing power combined with search algorithms which they have honed over 10,000+ years. Eventually they will have mapped the history from beginning to end of every single species in the universe (a relatively small finite number after all).  Using time/space travel, you just need a small interference here and there to change the development of a species (delaying the invention of a key technology, eliminating a key individual before they were born etc). Nothing major and noticeable. The possibilities are almost limit less. You  have an unseen empire of puppet masters who have created the universe to their design.

    Perhaps TimeLord society you didn’t like that, so they implemented a non-intervention policy. Even so, lets assume you leave things be or perhaps take the view that the positive outcomes of having Daleks, Cybermen around outweigh the negatives, so you decide to allow their existence to continue, surely having the ultimate knowledge of their time, you would know that the Daleks would eventually invent time travel and come after you. Since you have this power first, you would eliminate the possibility that the other power would create the technology before they even created it. A time war of sorts I suppose. In fact with that sort of technology the only convincing timewar possible is a Time Lord civil war, using the other races as pawns in their game (hello Lawrence Miles). By the way, the Genesis of the Daleks concept rather negates this possibility as it implies the Time Lords don’t have this sort of technology, but that’s a small problem easily overcome if you want to.

    Maybe that’s too far a stretch for you. A simpler idea would be better. Ok, let’s say the Doctor’s Tardis is unique and special (Moffat has used Clara to imply that). Ignoring all the how/why questions that little idea raises, just what does that imply really ? The Tardis “searches” all of the universe’s hot spots where the presence and actions of the Doctor might be of benefit and then drops him off randomly to make a difference. I say random because  there doesn’t seem to be a order from the most important to the least. Perhaps the Tardis is training him getting him skills and experience base ready for the tougher challenges. Since the Tardis is choosing his challenges for him so perhaps she also determined that he would work best with a companion or two to help. Its not much of an inference to suggest its the Tardis who is actually selecting the Companions based on each regenerations personality requirement and the challenges they face by bring them together. Just how much free will does the Doctor have ?

    In conclusion, surely we are actually watching the adventures of Tardis in time and space using her willing pawn the Doctor to improve the universe. Tardis as God.

    MadScientist72, please call me old fashioned but it sometimes can appear that Moffat Who really isn’t the same show as RTD and BG production team made anymore. RTD has 9 and 10 highlight their lack of Tardis control on more than one occasion and it was pretty much the normal operating condition in BG Who (not entirely of course, when needed the Doctor could always fly the Tardis pretty well).

    I apologise to you as well, as I’m not trying to get at you in any way here. Your statement is Moffat’s and his alone. My point is that you can create some pretty wild ideas by making relatively simple and plausible inferences from these few lines without making any real effort. Its where you can get to, I don’t really like. I know we’re not really supposed to care or think about these sort of explanations that are there to make the story work on a particular emotional/narrative level really. There have always been (and will always be) plot holes and inconsistencies in Who, that don’t make sense really, but I think its best for everyone if you avoid them getting too close to the heart of the show.

    Nick

    #13913
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    Re: 1. I think we can agree that there are many different levels of fandom, from those who merely watch the show on a regular basis to those who eagerly devour every little scrap of related material (books, DVD extras, internet stuff, etc.). Personally, I fall somewhere in between. Just as there will be stuff in the show that only regular viewers will “get”, any show with significant out-of-show supplemental material* will have stuff in there that only avid fans will “get”. The regular viewer will still be able to enjoy the show, but the avid fan will have a deeper understanding because of the extra material.

    *Most sci-fi shows these days fall into this category, probably because sci-fi fans tend to be more obsessive about their favorite shows than fans of other genres.

    Re: 2.:

     you have to ask how does he keep being in the right place at the right time?

    Given that there always seems to be trouble wherever he lands, one could argue that he actually keeps being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  After all, he stole the Tardis so he could go out and see the univeres, not save it. He’s become a sort of “accidental hero”.

    The Time Lords have built an unknown number (probably hundreds) of Tardis capable of this feat. Wow. With this power they can really rule the universe without breaking a sweat.

    Actually, having many Tardises could work against them when it comes to controlling the future. Every eye that looks into the Time Vortex with the intent of steering events creates new possible futures. Too many people messing with the natural progression of things would muddy the waters to the point that no one could reliably see anything. I think that what makes the Doctor’s Tardis “unique and special” is that it’s the only one left. With no other Time Lords (and few other time travellers) tampering with events, the picture is much clearer, with fewer probability forks to navigate.

    Just think of the Galiffreyan equivalent of the NSA using essentially unlimited storage and processing power combined with search algorithms which they have honed over 10,000+ years. Eventually they will have mapped the history from beginning to end of every single species in the universe (a relatively small finite number after all). Using time/space travel, you just need a small interference here and there to change the development of a species (delaying the invention of a key technology, eliminating a key individual before they were born etc). Nothing major and noticeable. The possibilities are almost limit less. You have an unseen empire of puppet masters who have created the universe to their design.

    Even with the best technology, the Time Lords would need to have perfect execution of every aspect of their plans to accomplish that. And since even they aren’t infallible, things are bound to go wrong. The Law of Unintended Consequences applies to Time Lords, too.

     The Tardis “searches” all of the universe’s hot spots where the presence and actions of the Doctor might be of benefit and then drops him off randomly to make a difference. I say random because there doesn’t seem to be a order from the most important to the least.

    Seem would be the operative word there. Since we can’t see all of time and space ourselves, we don’t know if there’s a signifcance to the order to the places/events the Tardis sends the Doctor to. Some events with seemingly minor immediate effects cold have enormous long-term ones (the Butterfly Effect).

    Since the Tardis is choosing his challenges for him so perhaps she also determined that he would work best with a companion or two to help. Its not much of an inference to suggest its the Tardis who is actually selecting the Companions based on each regenerations personality requirement and the challenges they face by bring them together. Just how much free will does the Doctor have?

    There’s an old saying – “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink”. The Tardis might drop the Doctor into a certain event, but it can’t control what he does once he’s there. Similarly, it can lead him to potential companions, but the Doctor decides whether or not to bring them aboard.

    MadScientist72, please call me old fashioned but it sometimes can appear that Moffat Who really isn’t the same show as RTD and BG production team made anymore. RTD has 9 and 10 highlight their lack of Tardis control on more than one occasion and it was pretty much the normal operating condition in BG Who (not entirely of course, when needed the Doctor could always fly the Tardis pretty well).

    Okay, you’re old fashioned. 😛 Seriously, though, you can make that same statement every time the production team changed. SM’s Who is different from RTD’s, which was different from JNT’s, which was different from his predecessor’s, etc., all the way back to Lambert. Although there were out-of-control times under RTD, there were also times when The Doctor actually got where he intended to go (like New(x15) New York or the 1st trip to Satellite 5).

    I apologise to you as well, as I’m not trying to get at you in any way here.

    No apologies necessary. If we all agreed on everything all of the time, this would be a pretty boring place.

     

    #13914
    Anonymous @

    @nick @MadScientist72 – this is a fascinating exchange to read.  A teensy bit off-topic from the thread’s focus on companions, but you both have folded companions into your musings.

    This, though: “The Tardis might drop the Doctor into a certain event, but it can’t control what he does once he’s there.”

    Well (cheeky thought  😀  ): The Tardis translates all languages.  How do we know she’s not controlling the Doctor and his companion(s) once they arrive, by subtlely fine-tuning what they hear … and what they say?

    #13916
    Anonymous @

    @Shazzbot

    How do we know she’s not controlling the Doctor and his companion(s) once they arrive, by subtlely fine-tuning what they hear … and what they say?

    Then I guess @nick is right, the BBC needs to change the show’s title from Doctor Who to The Adventures of Tardis.

    #13936
    Nick @nick

    @Shazzbot

    Sorry it seems I rather like to diverge off topic 🙂

    #13937
    Nick @nick

    @Madscientist72 @Shazzbot

    Slightly different take on Shazzbot’s point:

    Does the Tardis telepathic circuits still exist in AG Who. If so, the Tardis could rewrite his memory and alter his perception to create the sort of Doctor she wanted. We all can see Doctor 1 (or is it zero these days) wasn’t the finished article back in the Unearthly Child/Cave of Skulls.

    #13938
    Nick @nick

    @MadScientist72

    I wasn’t taking myself that seriously, but the point I wanted to make was that (for me) the small change Steven Moffat made in the Doctor’s Wife [you highlighted originally] seems to actually create quite a fundamental change in the basis of the series. I’m sure (pretty sure) that it wasn’t intended to do that and I don’t suppose it will last in the long term.

    It appears I seem to have a bigger problem with SM’s interpretation when you get to the nitty-gritty (details – I think you’re from the US ? I shouldn’t assume and use English slang really) even though I have enjoyed SM’s run (so far) more than RTD’s.

    @Shazzbot

    What is the Tardis if not his longest and most faithful companion :). Sorry I just had to write that  after “A teensy bit off-topic from the thread’s focus on companions” even though I know you’re spot on.

    Nick

    #13939
    Anonymous @

    @nick – I don’t want to look like the Topic Nazi  😀   And of course you’re right, any discussion of the Tardis is perfect for the ‘companions’ thread.  She is indeed his most faithful and enduring companion.

    #13943
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – I don’t think making it official that the TARDIS is (sometimes) directing the Doctor’s journeys changes the direction of the show; throughout Before Gap Who that was a fairly common fan theory.

    And the Time Lords did have the power of gods; some cultures worshipped them as gods and in After Gap Who, one of the Doctor’s titles is The Lonely God. The thing with the Time Lords is that they’d decided not to use their power. But they did have it.

    River also describes the Doctor as a ‘god’ – and Colonel Runaway has to point out that the Doctor isn’t a god.

    I also don’t think it was a throwaway line; in After Gap Who the TARDIS is definitely alive – even the console room changes to have a more ‘grown’ feel about it. The TARDIS, like the Time Lords who brought her to life, has the power of a god. The difference between this TARDIS and the Time Lords is that she tries to use it to do good.

    Which suggests that she and the Doctor are indeed a very close fit. He stole her (after Clara pointed him back to the right TARDIS), but she let him. She takes him to critical events; but he’s the one who has to make the right decisions once he’s there.

    Moffat’s the writer who’s often described the Doctor as being in/not in the TARDIS. They’re a team.

    #13944
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    I don’t think I was ever a fan (just watched the show, bought the books and a few DVD’s of the ones I missed). Everything you write is true or can be construed as being true of course. The Tardis became alive (sometime in Tom Baker’s run or was it before then ?) so the concept is an old one. SM has taken it to a next level (I refuse to say the as its I don’t think it was the only way to go probably).

    Strangely, while I much prefer SM’s era than RTDs from a story perspective (his story/character arcs are much better conceived for example) I’m beginning to realize I really don’t like some of the things he’s dropped in to get where he wants to go. Fortunately, (for me anyway) the next show runner may well drop a lot of it for their own conception.

    I’m not sure I’m the right person to start it, but a thread on the different styles and showrunner objectives for AG Who might be interesting to tease out the subtle differences.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #13950
    Anonymous @

    @craig – re @nick ‘s suggestion – “a thread on the different styles and showrunner objectives for AG Who might be interesting to tease out the subtle differences.”

    Would you like me (or @jimthefish @htpbdet @phaseshift @bluesqueakpip or anyone else) to start a new blog under SIDRAT?  Some of this has been addressed in various areas but they’re scattered around, and I agree it would be interesting to hear our contributors’ ideas on this topic in one place.  I’d only add that it should encompass both BG and AG script editors / showrunners.

    #13956
    Nick @nick

    @Shazzbot

    Can I edit that sentence please ? Objectives and lose the last might be of interest.

    (walks away in shame…)

    #13957
    Anonymous @

    @nick – done!  (but we knew what you meant  😉  )

    #13958
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – yeah, sorry, I was using ‘common fan theory’ as shorthand for ‘there was always that suspicion, but it was never official’.

    By the time we were getting into the fifteenth year of the Doctor landing on some seemingly random planet/spaceship/space station and walking straight into its biggest crisis ever, the idea that this might be purely coincidental was wearing a little thin. 🙂

    Which is why several of the Tom Baker series did have him doing little jobs for the Time Lords or the White Guardian. In the long term, the idea that the TARDIS has her own agenda – to take the Doctor to places where his interfering will bring about a better outcome – is more sustainable for the show.

    #13964
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Re the TARDIS taking the Dr where SHE thinks he needs to be – that’s all very well but we are talking about something that has, at best only a minimal sense of cause and effect (if any), and, ironically, no sense of time as a linear concept.  All of time and space happens at once for the TARDIS.  Maybe the TARDIS is attracted by  a resonance or a residue of the Dr’s adventures so heads off there as she knows that’s somewhere he should be. It doesn’t matter if he’s only been there in the future relative to the moment she heads there – that’s irrelevant for the TARDIS.  If the Dr has ever been/will go to a place/time the TARDIS will sense it and head there. But the order and the why might as well be random. A paradox control sensor could prevent revisiting places  he has actually already been. Or not 🙂

    In AG Who as people (and the Dr himself)  have rightly pointed out, the Dr’s control of the TARDIS has much improved so maybe doesn’t engage the autopilot so often.

    #13968
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @Shazzbot I’m happy if someone wants to write a “Differences between RTD and Moffat” post. Not sure it would stand up as a whole forum but as a blog it would work.

    #13984
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    I agree there are lots of little things like this in Who over the years, which don’t seem to really work when you take a long term view. However, I’ve always told myself that we only get to see the adventures (good TV) and all those visits to other places where there nothing remarkable happens just aren’t televised. Of course the Doctor can’t go from being 400 something (Doctor 2) to being over 1,000 (Doctor 11) based on what we see on the show. Who knows what happens in the many Gaps.

    In the long term, the idea that the TARDIS has her own agenda – to take the Doctor to places where his interfering will bring about a better outcome – is more sustainable for the show

    The problem with this idea, nice as it is, is that it just raises another raft of questions. Why did this Tardis, rather than any of the other Tardises, get to have an agenda at all ? What is her (it?) agenda and how did the Tardis decide that was the right agenda to have. From their you get into questions like Does the Doctor know ? Does he care that he’s being manipulated that way ?

    @scaryb

    I love all these timey-wimey explanations. The problem I think is if the Tardis knows/senses everywhere the Doctor has and will be, surely she (it) [somebody needs to invent a personal pronoun with gender neutrality really] would decide to avoid the location where the Doctor eventually dies (let alone the ones where he regenerates). Of course you may say it was difficult to get to Trenzalore, but then I think we’re about to find out that the Doctor doesn’t die there after all because his personal future is (somehow) about to be changed to kick off a new regeneration cycle. There’s a Catch 22 situation in there somewhere.

    Nick

    #13986
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @nick

    I’ve always told myself that we only get to see the adventures (good TV) and all those visits to other places where there nothing remarkable happens just aren’t televised. Of course the Doctor can’t go from being 400 something (Doctor 2) to being over 1,000 (Doctor 11) based on what we see on the show. Who knows what happens in the many Gaps.

    Exactly.

    There are various refs throughout the show’s history, and particularly in Moffat’s tenure, to off-screen adventures. The Dr could nip off for a couple of hundred years and arrive back 1 minute (or a moment) after he left. We don’t even know that what we see in the TV show is even in the same order it happens to the Dr! There was a theory that 7.1 episodes were all nested within each other.

    Re the TARDIS – as she (she’s always been a she in the best ship-gender traditions) experiences all of time and space at once, death is a meaningless concept. There is no past/present/future, it’s all “now” (she’s obv just a big hippy at heart 😉 ). Similarly with the Dr – which regeneration doesn’t matter as they are all “her thief” (and all the regenerations exist all the time for her).

    She did try to avoid Trenzalore, which also contained the massive potential paradox of the dying TARDIS herself. As you say, the Dr has obv been reading the instruction manual (or taking lessons from River) and does programme in coordinates sometimes. Other times it’s autopilot or the TARDIS overides him, but don’t expect her motivation to make sense from a linear time perspective. It might be something like she senses a big ball of Dr activity coincidentlly near their current position in the vortex and thinks “oooooh, that looks interesting, let’s go and check that out”.

    The TARDIS as special – well it’s suggested in The Doctor’s Wife that all TARDIS’s are sentient to a degree, but the amount of time travelling this one’s done probably does make her just a bit special. The Dr referred to his own history in NotD as being unusual.  And like the Dr she’s a bit of a rebel in that she wanted to run off to see the universe.

    then I think we’re about to find out that the Doctor doesn’t die there after all because his personal future is (somehow) about to be changed

    The Doctor’s personal history has already been changed with first the GI, then Clara (and the Dr himself)  jumping into his own timestream. We don’t know the full implications of that yet, but it could be used to retcon absolutely any inconsistencies in the show’s backstory.

    Catch 22 somewhere – of course there is, it’s timeywimey

    😀

    #13987
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Further to TARDIS’s decision making –

    It might be something like she senses a big ball of Dr activity coincidentally near their current position in the vortex and thinks “oooooh, that looks interesting, let’s go and check that out”.

    That could also explain why the Dr occasionally turns up in the same time period in different incarnations eg 1963 (Hartnell, McCoy), the Autons with Pertwee and Eccleston – the TARDIS sometimes gets her Dr incarnations mixed up, so she’ll land in 1963 with McCoy when it was actually Hartnell’s activity she sensed (or the other way round)  😉

    #13988
    Nick @nick

    @scaryb

    The Doctor’s personal history has already been changed with first the GI, then Clara (and the Dr himself)  jumping into his own timestream. We don’t know the full implications of that yet, but it could be used to retcon absolutely any inconsistencies in the show’s backstory.

    The problem with timetravel and paradoxes is that once this happened, it became there from the start. Therefore I think you can equally say that his personal timeline hasn’t changed at all. The GI, Clara and himself were always their in his timeline. I don’t think any writer in the history of the show has quite got to the narrative problems this sort of thing can create quite right.

    Nick

    #13989
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @nick

    once this happened, it became there from the start.

    Exactly.

    It’s only our own linear perspective that makes this a problem. Everything we (the audience) has seen in the show’s 50 year history is what’s happened AFTER everyone clambered into the Dr’s timetrack.  ie ANY inconsistencies in continuity could be put down to Clara fixing whatever the GI did, but maybe not managing to amend all the details (eg from inconsistencies in cybermen design  to the missing pirate in Curse of the Black Spot)

    #13990
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb @nick – one more inconsistency was in last weekend’s Forest of the Dead viewing.  The Doctor has been handcuffed to some piping (‘Why do you have handcuffs?!’  ‘Shh, spoilers.’  🙂  ) but then in the next scene, he’s standing next to Donna looking at everyone back to life in the Library.

    How did he get free?  I’m thinking now, after reading Scary’s last comment, that maybe Clara was involved?

    Also Scary – your comment 13986 about the Tardis was great.

    #13991
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – why is this TARDIS special? Two reasons. One, when the Doctor nicked her, she was in the repair shop – for repairs to her faulty navigation circuits.

    What was the fault? Well, if the ‘fault’ was that she was controlling where she was going rather than the pilot … that would certainly be something any self-respecting Time Lord would think called for repair.

    Secondly, as @scaryb says, by now she’s done more time travel than any  other TARDIS in the known history of Gallifrey; plus she’s had to do most of it with one pilot instead of six. That one pilot probably needed to set a heck of a lot of operations on auto-pilot.

    Traditionally in SF, an extended period of unusually independent operation for any sufficiently advanced machine is likely to lead to the growth of a self-aware personality. Or in the case of the TARDIS, possibly a more self-aware personality.

    The problem with timetravel and paradoxes is that once this happened, it became there from the start. 

    Nope. Sometimes it’s not there from the start. Sometimes, in Doctor Who, you get a ‘loop universe’ (rather like the bubble universe) where events go along one course, loop back, are changed and then go along the ‘main’ track There are two versions of events, depending on whether you’re travelling inside the ‘loop’ or on the ‘main’ track.

    Sadly, I don’t think we can insert media (rather than links to images) otherwise I’d do the Doctor’s ‘whiteboard and some pens’ thing.

    #13997
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    Do we know this, as opposed to believe this explanation. I’m asking because (not unusually in AG who) I missed it if it was explained. As an explanation it is completely valid I think. However, we are watching the Tardis show with her puppet Doctor (I appreciate this is somewhat extreme version, but in  my view it is the end conclusion if you follow that particular explanation). Whether this was what exactly SM intended I’m less sure.

    @scaryb

    Of course if we now want to use the Clara excuse to fix any continuity problem (or invoke the GI’s presence to explain it in the first place) then we can of course. I choose not to, but that’s my choice. The impossible girl arc is one of those things I just intend to blank out of “my” Who – as opposed to SM’s version – because I believe the entire SM conceit to be absolute nonsense (unless we get some additional element in the two remaining parts of the Doctor 11 story). I think I can have a go at explaining why this is nonsense for me in reasonably coherent way if you want, but I won’t do it in any expectation or even intention to change your or anyone else’s mind in any way. I accept this is my choice and will go with it even if it means that a big part of the anniversary plot doesn’t work for me.

    @bluesqueakpip

    I think we may actually be talking about much the same thing (possibly). I agree in a linear sense of the Doctor’s life it was one pattern, then the GI changed it causing pain, suffering and possibly even death, the Clara change it again. The three versions are probably different (although post Clara intervention it might be back to the original pre GI version). What I mean is, the version we have seen over the years is has to be the final version post Clara intervention as this is was the version his personal time line was written to. For us then, nothing changed.

    I can accept an argument that everything changed and none of the historic Who stories we’ve seen happened in the way we saw as well (see Trial of a TimeLord for a sort of precedent here). That’s fine too , but then I’n not sure I really like it.

    Nick

    #13999
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @nick

    Ah, this is fun 🙂  Don’t think we’ve had an in depth discussion about the TARDIS before. Kudos to whoever sneaked her on to this thread as a companion.

    Bluesqueakpip – I forgot about time loops, parallel universes etc – nicely reminded. And again the TARDIS sees all these in her very un-human way of looking at things.

    Nick – you can find evidence in show to back up all of these claims me and BSP have been making in the last few posts. You can also find evidence (and I hope you will) to make a different case. For me, that’s what makes this show so much fun. Especially as it ages there are holes, gaps, inconsistences, creaky bits which develop as a natural consequence of being 50 (happens to the best of us LOL). What you won’t find in-show is a detailed explanation of exactly why and how something works eg exactly what is meant by “sees all of time and space at once” for example – it’s just not explainable to anyone who doesn’t have a degree in advanced quantum physics and Gallifreyan engineering.  But it doesn’t rule out free will.

    The impossible girl arc is one of those things I just intend to blank out of “my” Who – as opposed to SM’s version – because I believe the entire SM conceit to be absolute nonsense

    We all do that – blank out (or retcon) the bits we don’t like. Concentrate on the bits you do like. I’m sorry you’re not on board with the Clara story, but there will be a whole new crew along in a few episodes time. I’d love you to come up with an expanded explanation of the above, or why you think our reading of the TARDIS is wrong. And no I don’t expect you to change my mind, just as I don’t expect to change yours. Personal preferences, different strokes and all that. Debate is fun. Change it to a way you do like 🙂

    Clara changing things in his timeline could have no implications for the show’s future direction, or it could define it. We don’t know yet.

    #14000
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot – Handcuffs – Could’ve been Clara or it could just have been Donna using the sonic that was seen to be just out of the Dr’s reach. Unless they were wooden handcuffs of course 😉

    #14001
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    What I mean is, the version we have seen over the years is has to be the final version post Clara intervention as this is was the version his personal time line was written to. For us then, nothing changed.

    @nick – ah, but you can only say that because you’re a casual viewer. The non casual viewers over at the Guardian blog have been pointing out inconsistencies and retcons  over previous continuity ever since Clara first appeared on screen in Asylum.

    They’ve been subtle – but there are sufficient discontinuities between the events as recalled/referred to in S7 and the events as we watched them to be able to say that the on-screen continuity of Doctor Who has been blown into teeny tiny pieces. 😈

    The politer version would be to say that future producers are no longer trapped by fifty years of continuity – they can use it or ignore it as they please.

    Addendum: mind you, Skaro getting un-destroyed wasn’t that subtle. 🙂

    #14002
    Nick @nick

    @scaryb

    @Madscientist72 and I share that credit I think. I don’t necessary disagree with your analysis of the Tardis and Clara at all. I’m not sure that you are in anyway wrong. I need to rewatch all of series 5, 6 and 7 to be sure, but I think SM introduced (deliberately) this is the Doctor’s Wife and has followed it up thereafter culminating in the Impossible Girl idea (so far I rather like Clara as companion even).

    Narratively SM wanted to show that the Tardis and Doctor were emotionally linked in a way that hadn’t been expressed or really suggested before then. My impression was before the Doctor’s wife, it was clear there was a special relationship (it is his home, refuge and much more after all) and the Tardis was part organic and certainly alive (sentient) in some way. SM took this theme and went further is quite a reasonable and logical way (at least it seemed like that to me at the time). However, from the debates here and the way the series has continued under his watch, I have begun to realise it has implications for the underlying narrative that I find I really dislike.

    RTD went for his emotional pay-offs in a very different way (Earth Invasions, Rose & family, Rose’s ending) than SM. I felt uncomfortable with this at the time (my BG who wasn’t like that and I didn’t think it was necessary – see series 1 verses 2, 3 and 4 in terms of how the emotional pay-offs are handled). I understood RTD was trying to find a way the BG who fitted into the modern world to relaunch the show (and was right – the audience proves this). I came to accept this and actually saw the less hysterically dramatic stories lines and better thought through early SM era being distinctly better (I admit preferring something more intellectual than emotional).

    I now see that SM’s different style of emotional element has negative consequences for me. Showing the Doctor/Tardis relationship in the way he did was fine. But what he has done (I assume deliberately although I’m not always sure whether he has really thought his ideas through that well) has changed the dynamic of the show. The Tardis choses where to take him (how, why for hat reason we don’t know I think). In effect, she choses his companions (my inference, but a reasonable one I think), could possibly even by manipulating how the thinks and what he remembers (via the telepathic circuits) and (as Madscientist72 said) puts him in the wrong place at the wrong time. Does he really have any free will left ?

    You and @bluesqueakpip have quite reasonable either put forward explanations for why this is the way it is (or extrapolated from what SM has written) but for me, the underlying dynamic of the show has changed from the Doctor’s travels in time and space with the Tardis and his companions to the Tardis’s travels with her companion the Doctor and his helpers/family. It may be a small change for you, but I feel like its a big change and one I don’t like. By the way, you only have to change the Tardis to become one of Lawrence Miles type 101’s (the living walking version that is first shown in his book Alien Bodies) and you can eliminate the need for a Companion entirely from the show.

    This is a completely personal opinion, in fact more of a gut feeling then anything else, and the for the me the epiphany has only happened in the last week or so (although I had misgivings watching the Clara story unfold). I may yet come around and recognize how clever SM has been or not.

    Nick

    #14003
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    Interesting. Can someone who knows the details please take the time to list them for my benefit (totally selfish I know). I’d be interested in hearing how views on how this change frees future producers at all though.

    If you ignore costume continuity (which BG who certainly did) then for example, you can fit any Dalek story into their time line anytime before they were completely wiped out in the Evil of the Daleks (if they were  – after all that was just Skaro not the entire Dalek empire) and before the Doctor destroyed Skaro in Remembrance of the Daleks – just when was that ?). Of course you can then argue the TimeWar changed everything anyway. I have to say, I think past BG and AG continuity is only what you chose to make it when you rite the stories. The Doctor occupies a non-linear universe afterall.

    To me the relaunch needed is to get the Doctor out from under the TimeWar guilt and enable his personality to “mend” to open up a future where the Doctor operates without his guilt and to have any personality type instead of one suffering from the effects of his decisions. Doing this convincingly is, I think, the challenge SM has opted to take.

    Nick

    #14004
    curvedspace @curvedspace

    Of course you may say it was difficult to get to Trenzalore, but then I think we’re about to find out that the Doctor doesn’t die there after all because his personal future is (somehow) about to be changed to kick off a new regeneration cycle.

     
    @nick, Doctor #10 said that a regeneration is a death, feels like a death. It could be Moffat is pulling one of his favorite tricks: telling us the absolute truth in a way that is easy to initially misinterpret (e.g. the episode title The Name of the Doctor). “I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    #14005
    Nick @nick

    @curvedspace

    yes I can believe that. Fall of 11 doesn’t actually mean anything in particular, but we do know his “grave” is there, but not when he dies (or if its an immutable point than can never change). I read here that there is a view that Trenzalore might really be Gallifrey. That also has a certain logic that I can buy into conceptually.

    Do you have any views on the Amy/Rory and Tardis discussion we have been having ?

    Thanks

    Nick

    #14006
    Anonymous @

    @curvedspace – ahh, any chance to shoe-horn The Princess Bride into a conversation should not be overlooked.

    This comment probably should be On The Sofa, or in The Rose And Crown, but  F  it.  The Princess Bride should be everywhere.  😀

    #14007
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick – try this post and subsequent conversation in The Name of The Doctor (pt 1) thread.

     

    #14008
    Anonymous @

    @nick

    Why did this Tardis, rather than any of the other Tardises, get to have an agenda at all ? What is her (it?) agenda and how did the Tardis decide that was the right agenda to have.

    The other Tardises could have agendas too. We just haven’t seen enough of them to notice. Her agenda would appear to be righting the wrongs (as she sees them) of the universe. I would imagine she decides her agenda in the same way as other sentient beings – according to her own conscience.

    surely she… would decide to avoid the location where the Doctor eventually dies (let alone the ones where he regenerates).

    Not necessarily. Although I’m sure she’s saddened by situations that cause the Doctor to regenerate and would be devastated by his ultimate death, her view of the “big picture” might lead her to conclude that they are necessary events. Also, while she’s undoubtedly aware that Trenzalore is the site of the Doctor’s (and her own) demise, she she would also know that this is not the time for their deaths to happen. Trenzalore now and Trenzalore on death-day are not the same location to her.

    @scaryb

    the TARDIS sometimes gets her Dr incarnations mixed up, so she’ll land in 1963 with McCoy when it was actually Hartnell’s activity she sensed (or the other way round)

    Or she knows that both Doctors need to be there at that particular time.  Since she can see all of space-time, it stands to reason that she can also see all of the Doctor’s potential futures and make sure that he’s always at the right space-time coordinates to keep both the universe’s and his own timelines on the optimal course.

    @nick

    The problem with timetravel and paradoxes is that once this happened, it became there from the start. Therefore I think you can equally say that his personal timeline hasn’t changed at all.

    What I mean is, the version we have seen over the years is has to be the final version post Clara intervention as this is was the version his personal time line was written to. For us then, nothing changed.

    You could also say that everything has changed. Some theoretical physicists theorize that (as @bluesqueakpip alluded to) each choice made created parallel universes, one where the choice was made one way and one where it was made the other way. It’s how they get around the Grandfather Paradox. (if you go back in time and kill your own grandfather, it creates a parellel universe where you were never born but “your” universe continues to exist, so things don’t get stuck in a never-ending cycle of happening and un-happening.) So, when the GI jumped into the Doctor’s timestream, it created a universe where all of the Doctor’s victories turned to defeats. Then, Clara’s jump into the timestream created a 3rd universe where everything was put right (although possibly not exactly the same as before).

    @Shazzbot

    The Doctor has been handcuffed to some piping (‘Why do you have handcuffs?!’ ‘Shh, spoilers.’ ) but then in the next scene, he’s standing next to Donna looking at everyone back to life in the Library. How did he get free?

    Maybe they were those cheap novelty-store handcuffs that you can pick with a paper-clip (and the Doctor conveniently had one in his pocket)? (I seriously hope that real police handcuffs are much more difficult to get out of, but I’ve never been arrested, so I don’t know.)

    @nick

    However, we are watching the Tardis show with her puppet Doctor

    I’d say it’s more like The Doctor Who and Tardis Show. They seem to me to be more collaborators/partners than master and puppet or leader and companion.

    @scaryb

    Kudos to whoever sneaked her on to this thread as a companion.

    As @nick pointed out, I think the Tardis-as-companion idea grew out of our tangent of debating the Doctor’s driving skills. In truth, she’s his ulimate companion (or partner) – the only one who’s been there from the beginning straight through to now.

    #14009
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    Thanks. I must pay much much more attention lol. I can see that it appears SM has been pretty clever again (something I never doubted), although I’m not sure whether you list supports your idea in the earlier post I was replying to.

    Could all these little Clara points be read as side effects of the impossible girl multiple personality on the original ? The Doctor ones fit more into the concept though. In the Rings of Akhatan, when you mention the that the Doctor’s memories weren’t enough, but Clara’s are. But aren’t Clara’s memories really her impact on his life whereas his are his life. Aren’t these much the same, unless we’re now to consider all of the Doctor’s previous memories have essentially been wiped. Your analysis sort of suggests this.

    I know we don’t quite see eye to eye on the paradox bit, but since the GI and Clara (and 11 himself) are now simultaneously present throughout the Doctor’s life to that point everything we’ve seen to date is as it should have been so we end up postulating that GI/Clara only has a noticeable effect on a handful of 7b stories. I think we can both agree this isn’t correct (?). I feel I still get back to me underlying doubt whether SM has really thought the consequences through before embarking on this story line. I guess we probably disagree there 🙂 .

    The other question I come back to if GI, Clara and Doctor 11 enter his time stream (which by definition runs from birth to death) the Doctor 11 and Clara must become aware of all 13 Doctors and his entire future history. Nothing less than that makes sense to me. So even if the Hurt Doctor isn’t the Doctor by choice of name (choice of action/personal responsibility of course) he is biologically, so his memories must be in the timeline. In fact all 13 Doctor’s memories must be present so Clara MUST have seen all 13 (unless he dies before the biological end). Surely the GI will not have started his attach from just 11 downwards only.

    Of course SM can still fix this problem in the anniversary story and may have a clever explanation. Short of that though this are the sort of things which cause SM problems for me.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #14010
    Nick @nick

    @Madscientist72

    One last thing before I go home for the weekend. I thinks its probably best to leave out real life physics 🙂 Apart from the fact that I doubt we have anything like the full understanding yet, there is one particular interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (around the quantum superposition (but I may be remembering wrongly here)) where every single event creates an alternative possibility and you end up with the universe being an infinite multiverse (ie there are infinite numbers of you and me and everyone making infinitely different choices at each decision point. A concept so alien to perception that we really cant understand it outside the maths). The  father of Mark Everett (singer/songwriter in the Eels) came up with the idea originally. There’s a fascinating documentary out there covering – in part the father/son relationship.

    🙂

    Nick

    #14020
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @Madscientist72

    So, when the GI jumped into the Doctor’s timestream, it created a universe where all of the Doctor’s victories turned to defeats. Then, Clara’s jump into the timestream created a 3rd universe where everything was put right (although possibly not exactly the same as before).

    I am not sure about this.

    Clara has already been in the Doctor’s existing timeline before she steps into the tunnel: Asylum and Snowmen show us that. So her role as Impossible Girl exists in the Doctor’s past before he gets to Trenzalore with her.

    Why is there any reason to think that the Doctor is not still in his original timeline, which we have followed since Unearthy Child?

    Surely that Universe, the third in your postulation, is actually the one in which Clara and the Doctor have always been? Clara’s entry now stops the GI activity and her corrections are the ones which propel the Doctor along the lives he has already led.

    My old brain can’t get around any other way of looking at it.

    We know that Clara aided Hartnell decide on which TARDIS to take (which, of course, is slightly at odds, perhaps, with what Idris said in Doctor’s Wife, but heigh-ho) so we know that she was there at the start of the Doctor’s travels and we also know that she has been there all along the way.

    So I see nothing to suggest that anything has happened to alter the Doctor’s past as we have seen it- if Clara had not jumped in and created herself as the Impossible Girl, then, sure, the timelines would have altered. But, as she did, I cannot see how anything has changed.

    The Impossible thing about Clara is that she exists in order to make sure she exists – no?

    I’d say it’s more like The Doctor Who and Tardis Show. They seem to me to be more collaborators/partners than master and puppet or leader and companion.

    I think one thing we can be certain of is that the TARDIS and the Doctor are linked – that was clearly stated in Power of the Daleks. They are part of each other.

    Its a unique relationship, sure, but in no way is the Doctor not the leading party: the TARDIS is full of power and capable of great things, but I do not see her as the Doctor’s equal or controller or manipulator or destiny. That Pertwee survived and flourished when the TARDIS was all but disabled by the Time Lords points to that reality.

    The TARDIS is amazing – I have said many times that the TARDIS is the greatest creation in the Doctor Who universe and I repeat that. Without the TARDIS, Doctor Who would have been dead long ago.

    I adore the TARDIS and enjoy it when little insights about her abilities are discovered.

    But I see no sense of collaboration anywhere, except in the way that, say, a person and their faithful horse collaborate on the process of travelling.

    The Doctor loves the TARDIS, depends upon the TARDIS and sometimes treats it like a fellow traveller, all of which is fantastic.

    But he is the pilot…at least most of the time.

    The TARDIS rarely takes independent action – I can only think of two occasions: Planet of the Spiders and Name of the Doctor. (I am not counting “sulks” which are not unusual for a sentient being) And I can think of many times where, if the TARDIS was capable of independent action, it would have taken it – one example is when Jo pressed the dematerialisation switch and caused TimeRam in Time Monster.

    @nick

    The other question I come back to if GI, Clara and Doctor 11 enter his time stream (which by definition runs from birth to death) the Doctor 11 and Clara must become aware of all 13 Doctors and his entire future history. Nothing less than that makes sense to me. So even if the Hurt Doctor isn’t the Doctor by choice of name (choice of action/personal responsibility of course) he is biologically, so his memories must be in the timeline. In fact all 13 Doctor’s memories must be present so Clara MUST have seen all 13 (unless he dies before the biological end). Surely the GI will not have started his attack from just 11 downwards only.

    Yes, that is how it seems to me too.

    Which is why I will be interested to see whether the exit from the tunnel explains all or just works on the basis that the detail does not matter. Alas, for me, all too often SM does not deal with the detail but with the broad brushstrokes – which are full of invention, colour, excitement and movement.

    Time will tell.

    🙂

     

    #14026
    Anonymous @

    @htpbdet – According to the theory I was talking about every choice creates parallel universes, not just the the 2 by the GI & Clara to jump into the Doctor’s timestream. Of course, most choices only affect events going forward, while these also affect events going backwards.  For example, if Amy and Rory had chosen not to reconcile in the Dalek Asylum, the events of Angels Take Manhattan wouldn’t have happened (or would have happened without A&R) and the Doctor wouldn’t have gone to Victorian London to greive their loss. Consequently, he never would have encountered Simeon, Victorian Clara would never have existed and Oswin (Dalek Clara) would have just been a one-off, rather than the Doctor’s “Impossbile Girl”. All of the Doctor’s pre-AotD adventures would have happened as we remember them without interference from the GI/Simeon (I’m still not sure that Simeon’s GI is the same as the AG GI) or “correction” by Clara. Post-AotD would, of course, be very different.

    #14029
    Anonymous @

    @nick, @htpbdet

    In fact all 13 Doctor’s memories must be present so Clara MUST have seen all 13

    When Clara is in the Doctor’s timestream watching his various regenerations run by, he tells her “Those are my ghosts, my past.” Since she doesn’t see any future faces – and, it seems, neither does he (or, if he does, he’s not saying) – we can assume that there’s some sort of block in effect preventing looking into the Doctor’s future. Since the timestream is in the Doctor’s tomb and, hence a part of his own future, it would appear that his living presence is playing some role, blocking out anything beyond what is “current” for him.

    #14031
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

     I see nothing to suggest that anything has happened to alter the Doctor’s past as we have seen it

    @htpbdet – Motto of the Moffat era: Time can be changed.

    The continuity changes are generally subtle (except for Skaro), but they’re consistently there throughout both Asylum and the second half of Series 7. And while most of them could be explained away individually, the cumulative effect is difficult to explain without saying ‘the Doctor’s continuity has changed’.

    Yes, he could have visited Skaro at a point before he destroyed it. Yes, there might have been another battle of Exillon. Yes, the missing wonder of the universe could have been destroyed in an off-screen event. Yes, he could have forgotten how to pronounce ‘Metebelis’.

    But all of them?

    #14058
    janetteB @janetteb

    @htpbdet  I like your analogy of the relationship between the Doctor and the Tardis to a horse and rider. I have to confess, (looks about makes sure no one is listening) to being the only fan who didn’t like The Doctor’s Wife. I felt it shifted the relationship between the Doctor and Tardis too much however, I tend to get around my discomfort by telling myself that like S.M. and the good Doctor, the Tardis lies and was greatly exaggerating her role in his adventures. There have been plenty of times in BG Who especially when the Tardis appeared to be directing the Doctor.

    The questions raised in AG Who about free will perhaps reflect societial concerns as to whether there really is any such thing as free will.

    @Shazzbot. The Princess Bride rightly deserves to be shoe-horned into every conversation. 🙂

    I think the beauty of Clara’s intevention in the Doctor’s time stream is that it can explain everything or nothing, and like all time travel, has logic holes bigger than the universe. I really hope that Moffat doesn’t try to hard to explain or justify what happened as it leaves things open for the viewer to decipher. As with a lot of Moffat stories we can just take them at face value or work out our own explanations for what happened. (I am thinking the exploding universe.) It could be that S,M works only in “broad brush strokes” and is too lazy to devise his own explanations or (and this is what I think more likely), he has the full story sketched in his head but only give us fragments of us, letting us fill in the gaps, sort out the logic for ourselves, if we wish too. Moffat’s stories are open compositions, filled with clues and false leeds, more puzzles really.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #14067
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @MadScientist72

    When Clara is in the Doctor’s timestream watching his various regenerations run by, he tells her “Those are my ghosts, my past.” Since she doesn’t see any future faces – and, it seems, neither does he (or, if he does, he’s not saying) – we can assume that there’s some sort of block in effect preventing looking into the Doctor’s future. Since the timestream is in the Doctor’s tomb and, hence a part of his own future, it would appear that his living presence is playing some role, blocking out anything beyond what is “current” for him.

    That is one way of looking at it.

    Here’s another.

    The Great Intelligence knows about the Doctor’s future relative to Smith’s Doctor. He describes the events which led to” the old man” being finished off. He also lists names the Doctor will be known by “before the end”.

    So, it is more likely than not that the Great Intelligence would seek to eradicate future and past events in the Doctor’s timeline. Vastra says the Great Intelligence is attacking the Doctor’s “entire” timestream. The Great Intelligence says it will “rewrite his every living moment”. That means his future as well as his past.

    We never actually see Clara do a single thing to prevent the malevolent intervention of the Great Intelligence. Not a single thing. Does not mean she didn’t.

    And obviously she did because Jenny and Strax revived and the lost stars returned to the sky.

    So, we simply don’t see everything she does or sees in the tunnel.

    Equally, there is a difference between what each of the “million” Claras who have been “born” in various spots in time and space remember.

    Our Clara, did not remember Asylum Clara or Snowmen Clara until she was within the range of the tunnel. Inside the tunnel, who knows what she has remembered? But – the Clara inside the tunnel is still the one who went inside the tunnel – so she is the splintered creation of herself. And it makes sense that she remembers the Doctor’s past up to the point where she met him, where he is in his own timestream.

    Perhaps the corrections Clara carries out occur chronologically in the Doctor’s past, so that she restores everything before the moment Smith’s Doctor enters the tunnel, but his arrival stops her continuing forward? That makes sense to me, because the Great Intelligence can only alter Smith”s future in alternative possibilities: until he lives it, it does not become his reality, just a future possibility ( in the same way Earth’s destruction is just a possibility in Pyramids of Mars ).

    And, if it does not happen that way, Clara will be with us to the end, popping up in new guises with no memory of her past or the Doctor, coming to upset the Great Intelligence’s plans.

    So, with respect, I think it is quite clear that both Clara and the Doctor must have access to his future in the tunnel, because part of the tunnel is the distance between Smith’s Doctor and the final incarnation to have two hearts beating.

    Whether they access that future is another matter entirely. And we will not know until the Anniversary Special, if then.

    @bluesqueakpip

    Yes, time can be rewritten. Sure. The great Moffat cop-out. I am afraid I am rather tired of that mantra but I greatly fear that Moffat’s ego is so great he actually intends to re-write the Doctor’s history. I sincerely hope my fears are misplaced.

    The continuity changes are generally subtle (except for Skaro), but they’re consistently there throughout both Asylum and the second half of Series 7. And while most of them could be explained away individually, the cumulative effect is difficult to explain without saying ‘the Doctor’s continuity has changed’.

    Yes, he could have visited Skaro at a point before he destroyed it. Yes, there might have been another battle of Exillon. Yes, the missing wonder of the universe could have been destroyed in an off-screen event. Yes, he could have forgotten how to pronounce ‘Metebelis’.

    But all of them?

    If we start deciding things based on the number of inexplicable ( to some ) continuity errors, we may as well give up.

    You may well be right about this, but my heart will be heavy if you are.

    On the other hand….the events in Asylum could easily have occurred before the Seventh Doctor blew up Skaro.

    As to Exxilon, nothing is surer than that the Daleks would have sent a ship to investigate what happened. Perhaps there was a “bubbling lump of hate” still bubbling? Perhaps there was a mother ship to where the Dalek spaceship was headed when it blew up? Perhaps the Dalek who killed himself for failure was also a failure at killing himself. There are a myriad number of ways there could be Dalek survivors on Exxilon.

    Many things in Doctor Who happen off screen. Vastra got her message to Clara offscreen. River learns about Spoilers offscreen.

    Smith’s pronunciation of Metebelis was, almost certainly, deliberate – to rile people like me. Or to make people think there was something going on – another Moffat building-block: the false clue. But, looked at calmly, regeneration can easily have the effect that words are pronounced differently from incarnation to incarnation.

    So….I don’t see any errors or any cumulative effect here. It is as it ever was…continuity gives way to what the moment in the story requires. And we cope.

    Until it is expressly stated that you are right, I am going to rumble along in my bubble – hoping that the smiling resolution of continuity errors permits past, present and future enjoyment.

    @janetteb

    Don’t feel you are alone!

    But equally I don’t think you need to worry too much about that one line – I do not think it needs to mean anything in particular, as, hopefully, I have explained above.

    As to this:

    Moffat’s stories are open compositions, filled with clues and false leads, more puzzles really.

    I agree completely. And with one slight refinement think it sums up his era:

    Moffat’s stories are open compositions, familiar tropes and themes, filled with clues and false leads, more puzzles really, resonant with magic and thrills.

    That last bit was especially for you @Shazzbot

    #14073
    Anonymous @

    @htpbdet @bluesqueakpip @janetteb

    the events in Asylum could easily have occurred before the Seventh Doctor blew up Skaro.

    H and Bluey: Y’all are so much better at this than I am, but didn’t the Doctor say he can’t go back on his own timeline?  I’m probably mis-remembering that, so this next point will sound silly to you if so, but … if 7 came before 11 then surely 11 can’t go back to an event (a fixed point) prior to what 7 did?

    (actually, that sounded silly in general!  but do you understand what I’m trying to say?)

    Janette – “like S.M. and the good Doctor, the Tardis lies and was greatly exaggerating her role in his adventures.”

    I do rather like that interpretation!

    #14076
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot – I understand perfectly. And I don’t think the Doctor went back to Skaro before he blew it up at all. 🙂

    However, it would be possible for a later Doctor to go to a point before a planet’s death – just as he can go back in time before a person’s death – providing he doesn’t do something that would affect his own earlier actions. So I suspect he’d now try to avoid Skaro; the point that he doesn’t mention it’s going to be destroyed by him or make any comment whatsoever that implies it will be destroyed is the continuity change. He seems completely unaware that he’s destroyed the place.

    Basically my attitude is ‘the Doctor cannot alter his own timeline’. That’s why he’s so careful about spoilers; once he knew he didn’t rescue Amy and Rory, he can’t.

    I would say, what with wibbley-wobbly, that there’s one possible time where the Doctor could alter his own time-line. And that’s if the Doctor knows that they did.

    That is, if a future Doctor can’t exist without alteration in the Doctor’s time line as it currently flows, their very existence implies that they must change the time line. If you’re – say – a future Doctor and you discover that the Eleventh Doctor dies at Trenzalore – you know that didn’t happen. So you would be able to change things to the events that happened in your past. You’d be able to stop the Eleventh Doctor dying at Trenzalore, even though – from the Eleventh Doctor’s point of view – that is a part of the Doctor’s timeline and so the Eleventh can’t change it.

    Equally, as well as a future Doctor, a Companion would – in theory –  be able to change the Doctor’s timeline. It’s not their own timeline. But the implication has always been that it takes the power of a Time Lord to change time. River might be able to do it.

    @craig – is there any way we can import self created images? Trying to work out what’s going on in Moffat’s convoluted brain would be so much easier with the equivalent of a whiteboard and some pens 🙂

    #14077
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – thank you for that explanation.   I’m going to have to re-read it a few times for my heat-addled brain to absorb it.  🙂

    #14084
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Hi @bluesqueakpip

    Assuming you’re on a PC, and it’s a jpg file,  right click on a pic in explorer (you don’t have to open it, but you can do it that way as well) on your computer, select copy, then just paste wherever you want it to appear. eg

    1 page pdfs are more complicated, unless you have edit pdf facility. I’ve got an option that says copy to clipboard, then again paste it where you want it. Comes out as a smaller image than when you use a jpg version.
    EDIT: Scrub that, pdf version didn’t work!

     

    PS Thought you’ d appreciate the pic btw (No Who refs (that I’ve found yet))

     

     

     

     

    #14085
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip

    Sorry – ignore all of that previous post

    <rubs chin, flummoxed. It worked that way before :-(   Hides head in shame as geek status goes down the tubes!>

    Over to @craig I think…

    (for info, with jpg, it looks like it’s pasted – there’s an image in the preview, but not after it’s published)

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 924 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.