S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@bluesqueakpip

I’m sure at some point the Master is going to escape that timelock, and it does occur that a marvellous arc could be developed in which he carried a few hundred non-Timelord Gallifreyans with him, as their “saviour”, to disappear to parts and times unknown. Not full Time Lords they would have every reason to hate and fear The Doctor, keeping him alienated. They could rely on lesser means of timelord technology like time rings to create havoc.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@phaseshift – but does the Master still hate the Doctor quite so much, now he’s learnt who really turned him into the Master? 😈

We’re still stuck with that ‘Last of the Time Lords’ title, though – a ‘time can be rewritten’ survival of the non-Time Lord Gallifreyans would be a way around the problems that result from the Doctor being permanently stuck with a backstory involving his personal responsibility for the genocide of his entire race.

Not that I’m blaming RTD, or anything. He came up with that backstory when the main problem was to get Nu-Who renewed for Series 2, and no one thought that’d happen. And it worked; it’s just that it’s become like the ’12 regenerations limit’ – an albatross around the neck of the Ancient Doctor.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

The name of Oswin. Clara is Oswin Oswald when she is a Dalek and when she is a nanny in Victorian England (even though, as I recall, no one calls her Clara Oswin Oswald until we see it on her gravestone at the end of “The Snowmen”). Surely, the name Oswin has some significance? I recall us debating it endlessly after both “Asylum’ and “Snowmen”, but now it seems to have dropped off the radar. In light of TNOTD, does it still have significance?

[Charlie Cook @charlie-cook]

Apologies if what I now say clashes with what everyone else has said, but I am struggling to catch back up!!

@craig thanks for the mini-episodes. Didn’t know about them, and I think they add a lot of back story.

@misspawsintime LOVE the idea that Hurt is our Doctor’s Dad
 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@blenkinsopthebrave – two thoughts come to mind.

One is that we’ve now found the meaning: oswin means ‘God’s friend’ and she was indeed the truest friend of the Lonely God. Her surname was ‘God’s power’ or God’s rule (divine power, basically) and she did end up The Boss of the Doctor. 🙂

Two is that we haven’t yet found the full meaning: because when we first meet her, in Asylum ofTD, she uses ‘Oswin Oswald’ – which means she’s using a male name as her first name. Likewise, in Victorian England, Clara has a male middle name. Which they probably wouldn’t notice; giving a child the mother’s maiden name as a middle name wasn’t terribly uncommon, and ‘Oswin’ is a surname, if a rather rare surname.

Or in other words (and you know what I’m leading up to) Clara selects a male name as her user name, talks about ‘going through a phase’ of fancying girls, and thought River was the opposite sex to her. All of this could be Moffat pulling our legs – but there is a pattern here.

Consistent with a subconscious memory of having previously been a man.

 

 

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@phaseshift –

I’m sure at some point the Master is going to escape that timelock, and it does occur that a marvellous arc could be developed in which he carried a few hundred non-Timelord Gallifreyans with him, as their “saviour”, to disappear to parts and times unknown. Not full Time Lords they would have every reason to hate and fear The Doctor, keeping him alienated. They could rely on lesser means of timelord technology like time rings to create havoc.

I like this.  I can’t see the timelock/last of the timelords thing surviving past the 5oth, and this would be a good way to get some form of the TimeLords back without just resurrecting them in prior form.  Can’t see the point in making all other canon hazy but leaving this millstone in place.  as @bluesqueakpip says, sensible as it was at the time, it’s now a limitation – and the easiest way to end the lonely God thing would be for him to not be alone anymore.

Presumably the 50th is being pitched at a wider Who audience, perhaps people who haven’t watched recently but would be tempted back for the anniversary.  If so I doubt it will be a Series 7 Part 3 – doubt we’ll see much about Clara’s backstory for example.  As more of a standalone, it would make sense if it is dealing with wider themes – and to appeal to the widest audience this would be After-Gap stuff, so changing the Last of the TimeLords status would make sense to move the show forward.

 

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

Clara also means bright, as opposed to the effects of the GI.

[Whisht @whisht]

wow – just saw the minisodes up-thread.

They really do explain or give a flavour of the relationship of River and the Doctor. The Amy ones less so, but River’s – absolutely.

And thanks again @wolfweed – as I think i sadi, i’m enjoying the Clara-Zeligs.

and are we calling her fragmentations “Claricles”?

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@LBJ19 – Wrong thread for spoilers! Spoilers are posted in the spoilers forum ONLY and all discussion of any spoilers stays there.

@craig – can you move post #10871? Thanks.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@bluesqueakpip Done.

[penny @penny]

I have another question:

Didn’t Clara learn of the Doctor’s name in that book she found while she was trapped inside the Tardis, but then forgot it when he reset time?  Couldn’t she just be suppressing the knowledge.  If River is the only person who knows his name then….

?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@craig – you’re a star! Thanks so much for the minisodes – hadn’t seen them before (may have to stop being a Scottish cheapskate and invest in DVD sets!). They’re fun.

Still doesn’t change much re River though. Yes we know it’s Matt’s Dr who takes her to the Singing Towers but we have no idea when ie how old his Dr is then. There’s also no reason why she can’t be seeing other versions of the Dr (after 11) at the same time – does it count as cheating if you’re dating 2 (or more) different incarnations of the same person…?

And @wolfweed – LOVED the story of the dalek in the pond (even tho  it goes back to 2009) – that’s just brilliant. And the pic is fab – imagine how you’d feel if it happened to you?! OMG Daleks are real!!!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@penny

Didn’t Clara learn of the Doctor’s name in that book she found while she was trapped inside the Tardis, but then forgot it when he reset time?  Couldn’t she just be suppressing the knowledge.  If River is the only person who knows his name then….

She did, and she probably is. But remember that it took being closely exposed to a leaky Tardis to trigger the first memories.  At least, she found something in the book (and when she got soaked in the Gallifreyan encyclopedia), we’re not sure what it was. In JttCotT she says : “But you’ve got a name, I saw it in the corner of the tiny….” then she’s interrupted. The Time War book is not tiny. (That’s not exact quote but the key word is tiny.)

That trip and what she saw could well be revisited. She remembered the most stressful bits first, the smaller details may come later.

At the start of the episode River is the only one who knows his name. Now there’s 2. I don’t see a problem with that. (Or you can have your Clara is River theory, I just prefer that she’s not 🙂 )

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@whisht

and are we calling her fragmentations “Claricles”?

Seconded

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@osakahatter I agree with you re your idea for the 50th generally, that in some ways it will be the pitch for the future.  I think we’ve probably finished with Clara’s backstory. Once the Dr gets ClaraPrime back out of his timestream she’ll be able to consolidate her character – we saw a much more developed Clara in NotD I thought. (@Shazzbot – best of luck in chronicling ALL the descrepancies in DW over the years, LOL. I think the idea is that what we have seen (for last 50 years) is the Clara-fixed versions, which may or may not be exactly the same as they were originally)

I think the GI as a major threat has probably gone (tho there is potential to bring him back at some point). But I agree the focus will be on how the Dr deals with HurtDr, leading to him reconciling himself with his dark side. Agree with @bluesqueakpip re Time Lords, but not sure how.

50th could be set still in his timestream and/or dealing with the events leading up to Trenzalore

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – No, sorry, I didn’t mean catalogue ALL discrepancies – agree that would be a lifetime’s work! – just those episodes in which Clara appears, and she faints or similar.   It started with the idea that a Claricle, not Clara Prime, was in more than AotD and Snowmen.  It amuses me to posit that in Cold War we actually saw one Claricle drown and other one take over.

But I like @bluesqueakpip ‘s explanation even more, that we might have seen the malign influence of the GI take over whilst Clara was out cold, and that malign influence dissipated once she came to.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot

Yeah, I liked @Bluesqueak’s thoughts on that too. I think it’s mostly ClaraPrime throughout 7.2. Reasons? Ironically, the way she seems less formed than the claricles.  She starts off as a nervous time traveller, she’s not sure about the Dr, or how to behave around him. She’s shocked by her first contact with the realities of  battles (the bodies in CW), she and the Tardis have to get to know each other (unless there’s a second Tardis going round after RoA) etc

Incidentally, 10 Apr 2013 was a Wednesday – ties in with the Dr’s “see you next Wed”. Anyone find any other significance to the date?

<is mighty relieved @Shazzbot is planning to have a bit of a life >

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – re 10/04/2013 – I thought that was an odd choice.  There are plenty of Wednesdays closer to the date of transmission that could have been chosen – perhaps when they filmed it, they expected the series to start airing earlier?

I tried searching on ‘what happened on 10 april 2013’ but didn’t find anything in the first page of results that looked interesting.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot

It’s the Wed before Cold War was screened. so could support your theory, if CW is the first one that we see a claricle. 🙂 (Though given that it’s all timey-wimey rather than linear, prob doesn’t apply)

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

Whew. What a read. It has take me three days to get to this point.. So many fantastic ideas to process, I feel as though there is a school of fish swimming around in my head.

I have always had the impression that Gallifrey is a highly classist (if that can presume to be a word) society, ruled by an elite that are almost entirely detached from the every day life of the general populace. My sons were re-watching Invasion of Time during the week. In IiT it is clear that not all Gallifreyans are time lords so the Doctor might remain the last of the time lords but not be the last Gallifreyan. I am hoping however that we do see the return of the Time Lords. I was excited to see an image of Gallifrey. Nu Who has been rather short on alien civilisations and, even though very sketchy, we know more of Gallifrey than any other alien plant to have been depicted in Who, other than perhaps Skaro.

Re Clara’s name. I am rather afraid that the Oswin does derive from her Os for the win comment at the end of TBoSJ, though I am certain Moffat chose that name because of its meaning. Nothing with Moffat is chance.

@scaryb. The 10th of April was my son’s 12th birthday. Other than that, no significance whatever. I suspect that the date is a red herring, there to keep us bonker’s theorises pondering.

Cheers

Janette

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@scaryb 10th April 2010 was the broadcast date of ‘The Beast Below’. Perhaps the Hurt Doctor is the Eleventh’s ‘Beast Below’? The terrible truth that he keeps wiping out of his memory?

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

Re: the date 10/04/2013

If you add up the numbers as single digits it gives you 11.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@janetteb

Agree with your take on the TimeLords. Always struck me as a plutocratic system now passed into the hands of people who had been in power too long. want still to hold on to the great power that being a Time Lord gives but with no sense of what it means, have forgotten the responsibility that it brings. They’ve mostly lost their sense of adventure as well it seems. All a bit Gormenghast. (And in some timeywimey way your son’s birthday is exactly the reason it’s 10 Apr 🙂 )

@bluesqueakpip – that’s perfect analogy, love it 🙂

Clever @chickenelly. The crown and pipe are working well

[Whisht @whisht]

Hi @LBJ19 (and anyone else!) – not sure if you’ve posted before, but just in case you haven’t, I don’t want to think that you’re not welcome just because your post was moved (and importantly not deleted!)

I think you should treat anything which is undoubtedly ‘factual’ (eg a picture of someone on set, an insider who’s told you that Prince Charles is guest starring as the Master etc) as Spoilers (unless someone says ‘erm, no, we all know that JLC has signed on for another year’).

In a way, the Spoilers thread are a quarantine zone for stuff which is ‘fact’.

Basically a lot of people here love speculating/ theorising.

Actual real-world facts as to the next episode are anathema to speculation.

Facts as to what will happen kill speculation dead.

But…. facts as to what will happen are like fan catnip (fannip?) and many here are weak, so we set up the quarantine zone of the Spoilers thread.

You’re absolutely welcome to post insider stuff to that thread, but the other threads are for speculation (as well as general stoopidity, avatar updating, deep Wholore knowledge, in-Whoniverse badinage, disagreements over the worth of Bakers etc etc and even more fun etc).

long post, but short message – welcome!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@ljb19 – yes, your post got moved. Not deleted. We have a thread especially for spoilers, so that those who love insider information and those who love wild theorizing can live in (relative) peace together. The Spoilers Thread is kind of like the Dalek Asylum, only with fewer chains and a constant supply of milk (and eggs).

Anything factual should go in the Spoilers thread until the episode concerned has aired on the BBC. And  – welcome. 😉

[budinacup @budinacup]

Just a thought to throw out there. It is of no great importance.

The God Complex…………… Room 11.

Was Hurt Doctor sitting in that room?!

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Let’s hear your Crazy Captions over on the Blog!

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

The Name of the Doctor Suite

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@Shazzbot and others

So, due to various circumstances, I ended up rewatching all of the ‘Clara’ episodes, from Asylum right through to The Name of the Doctor. I made some notes on both continuity and Clara losing consciousness 🙂

Asylum
Continuity:

• Skaro, destroyed in Remembrance of the Daleks, is now restored (if a bit of a wreck).
• The Daleks refer to The Doctor as ‘Predator of the Daleks’ rather than ‘The Oncoming Storm’.

The Snowmen
Continuity:

• The Doctor takes a drink of red wine – which previously (The Impossible Astronaut) he’s spat out.
• The TARDIS, halfway through the episode, is visibly more battered and paint-peeling than at the beginning.
• The control room has changed.
• The Doctor barely remembers the Great Intelligence.

And finally, once you know what’s happening, you can see The Great Continuity Battle taking place. The Great Intelligence comes back to life after Simeon dies: the Doctor is disbelieving – “that’s impossible!”. Then the Claricle manages to melt the Snowmen with her tears.

The two Claricles never faint (though they do sleep) or get knocked out.

Bells of St John
Continuity:

• All the monks lack tonsures.
• The Doctor takes a very strange route from the South Bank to St Paul’s – but it is one which takes him past the maximum number of tourists with cameras.

Clara drops dead when uploaded – but so does everyone else.

Rings of Akhaten
Continuity:

• The combination lock to the temple – which is supposed to be impossible – suddenly lets the Doctor through.
• We see when the Doctor should win – by feeding the planet with his memories – and then it suddenly wakes back up again. This is the point where Clara races to the rescue.

Fainting: she doesn’t exactly faint: both she and the Doctor are knocked against the wall in pretty short order. The Doctor is actually worse affected – it’s Clara who retrieves his sonic; he still can’t move.

Cold War
Continuity:

• For the first time in centuries, the Doctor decides to fiddle with the HADS. It doesn’t go well.
• He also talks about “I’m running her in.”

Clara fainting: again, she doesn’t exactly faint. The explosion happens, she’s knocked forward, goes underwater, sees the sonic in front of her – and loses consciousness. And while she’s unconscious, everything goes a bit to pot. She wakes up with the Captain threatening to shoot them both.

Hide
Continuity: tons

• The Doctor can’t remember how to pronounce Metebelis.
• The Doctor now has a crystal from Metebelis Three – which he’d previously returned.
• The Doctor can’t remember that there’s now no hatstand by the TARDIS door.

Probable GI interference – first the Doctor can’t find the exit to the pocket universe, and then he pauses for a vital second to work out what the banging was. It’s Clara who persuades Emma (via the Professor) to carry on when she thinks she can’t, and Clara who probably persuades the TARDIS to attempt the rescue.

Fainting: none by Clara. Instead, we have an odd moment – as Clara runs through the Doctor’s chalk circle, it starts to smoke. Then it turns into a time well.

Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
Fainting: Clara doesn’t actually faint – again, she and the Doctor are both knocked out by the explosion. Again, while she’s unconscious, the Doctor’s normal persuasive abilities desert him – it’s not until Clara wakes up that the Van Baalens agree to help in the rescue.

Continuity: two items for later

• In all his ranting, the Doctor never once mentions the nickname ‘Souffle Girl’
• In all their wandering, Clara never once gets visibly dizzy in the heart of the TARDIS. She also never mentions feeling dizzy.

It’s possible the GI influenced the Doctor to take the shields down and so destroy the TARDIS.

Crimson Horror
Continuity:

• The two pictures of the Doctor aren’t the same.
• The Doctor can’t remember why Tegan wanted to get back to Heathrow.
• The hymns are not contemporary.

Fainting: again, the Doctor and Clara both get knocked out. While Clara is plasticised, the Doctor is imprisoned and helpless – the Paternoster Gang are his rescuers.

Nightmare in Silver
Clara stays conscious throughout.   🙂

Continuity:

• the possible influence of the GI is seen in that the Cybermen now use non-humans for parts. Which means the Doctor is vulnerable to being taken over, and used as a Cyber-planner.
• The Cyberman is the 699th Wonder of the Universe when it should be the 700th.

The Name of the Doctor
See Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS for the ‘continuity differences’ between what was seen on screen and what Clara and the Doctor assume she remembers from those events.

Fainting:

• Clara is drugged for the Conference Call. While she’s ‘unconscious’, Jenny is murdered, Strax and Madame Vastra are kidnapped, and less seriously – the kids blindfold the Doctor and nip out to the cinema.
• Clara gets dizzy in the damaged TARDIS.
• The Doctor gets dizzy in front of his time-line.
• Clara faints immediately on being told that the Hurt Doctor is ‘the one who broke the promise’.

[Timeloop @timeloop]

@Bluesqueakpip Nice rundown.

Re ‘Souffle Girl’
Sounds like that would be a mistery to you? In tNotD she states “I am ‘Souffle Girl’ after all” Because she understands she is the recipe and not the product (something she says to the children before about Souffle)

[Charlie Cook @charlie-cook]

The clever thing here is – are they all  (nudge nudge) “continuity errors” or are there some continuity errors. Phew!

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip – you are truly awesome!   And based on that very thorough research, I think I disagree with anyone who says that we’ve seen the last of Clara’s backstory.  There’s just too much in there that’s too big to leave on the floor, not least the change in Tardis in Snowmen and the ‘just running her in’ comment in CW.

And as you say, with TNotD hindsight, it is indeed interesting to ponder whether that little ‘second wind’ Grandfather had was a result of GI interference.  Now that we know Clara’s future is as millions of lives (no matter how short between winking in and winking out of existence), it does make sense that her leaf could be stronger ‘food’ than the Doctor’s memories.  However, more importantly – I think there really are two leaves.  Grandfather ate up all those infinite possibilities – but Clara went on to have them, anyway.

@timeloop – but why the phrase ‘Souffle Girl’ if she had no memory at that point of being in AotD?  She more likely should have said, ‘Whaddaya know, I’m the souffle after all.’  (Or, ‘I’m the recipe‘.)  The only thing that makes sense is if Clara was doing a riff on ‘I’m SuperGirl’ by coining the phrase ‘Souffle Girl’ and then Claricle in AotD uses that phrase as an echo.

[Anonymous @]

@Charlie Cook – yes, that is the point exactly – are we going to be left to wonder whether continuity errors are deliberate or accidental?  I hope this isn’t the legacy of TNotD – a cheesy get-out clause for accidents, or worse, silly deliberate things that are meaningless except in context of pointlessly winding up theorisers, in all future episodes.   I really hope not.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

 Claricle in AotD uses that phrase as an echo.

@Shazzbot and @timeloop – except, she doesn’t use it as an echo.

That’s why I put it down in ‘continuity’. Clara doesn’t call herself ‘Souffle Girl’ in Asylum – the Doctor gives her that nickname. The Claricle’s response is “Could always call me Oswin. Seeing as that’s my name.”

So in Name ofTD, she calls herself by a nickname she shouldn’t know and doesn’t give to herself. There’s two differences between events in Journey ttCotT and the memories we’re encouraged to believe Clara has retrieved from that memory. Not one – which could be a continuity error – but two. Clara is remembering a) something Clara-Prime was never told and b) something which, as far as we are shown, no Claricle has ever experienced. 😉

[davemorris316 @davemorris316]

In regard to the drinking of red wine… Wasn’t it tessalector doctor who spat the wine out, not the real doctor?

[davemorris316 @davemorris316]

And… Doesn’t the doctor call her soufflé girl inside the TARDIS at the end of The Snowmen? If Clara is linked with the TARDIS, is this how she knows?

[topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey]

For davemorris316. It was the Tessalecta who spat out the wine. But might not of been the Doctors tastes they were copying. The Tessalecta’s dips when it drinks or eats.

Question to people, when Jenny and Strax died how come Vastra didn’t die? Can anyone explain?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip

You are just awesome! We are not worthy!! 😀

I hadn’t realised Clara fainted/was unconscious quite so much!  Used to happen to female assistants all the time in the 60s 🙂

Couple of comments – re red wine – Matt spat out in IA, but as @whohar pointed out a while back, Pertwee’s Dr “liked a good red” from time to time.  Plus all the little anomalies that various people (particularly Bluesqueakpip) pointed out in the Snowmen – the newspaper articles for example

<hits self over the head> Doh! I don’t think anyone’s mentioned the change in the Tardis being down to Clara (hence the reason the Dr doesn’t mention it. He usually makes a comment-  was it Tennant or Matt who came in to a refurbed Tardis and said something like “look at YOU!)

@Shazzbot Charlie Cook

Re retconning continuity errors – see previous discussions this thread and early 50th discussion (dalekised Dr theory had similar specualtion but due to memories upload) re ability of claricles concept to retcon/change every continuity error in Dr Who EVER, and to change the history as required.  It’s a potentially more massive change than a lot of people realise. OTOH 7.2 was written for Clara, so anything odd in there should be looked at closely!

I don’t know if we’ll get more of Clara’s back story, but I think we might get more about the effects. Re the leaf – it wasn’t presented to the grandfather as Clara’s leaf, it was her mother’s. Because her mother died so young, her life was full of potential. I’m still intrgiued by her rash promise (“I’ll always find you” – did she have any idea just what she was taking on?!). Clara Prime’s greatest fear was of getting lost.

@bluesqueakpip what does your mighty brain come up with re if there’s any significance to the fact that there are 2 different leaves?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

topperofgallifrey

Question to people, when Jenny and Strax died how come Vastra didn’t die? Can anyone explain?

Vastra woke up (River threw wine in her face) before they could get to her? Her heart’s in a different place/hide’s too thick for the Whispermen? Actually, I don’t think Strax did die – he woke up in time (River again). The 3 are transported to Trenzalore and only Jenny is dead when they arrive.

Or they’re all ghosts? (I don’t think so, but just throwing it in there 😈 )

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@bluesqueakpip Few things about continuity rundown.

The Snowmen
Continuity:

The TARDIS, halfway through the episode, is visibly more battered and paint-peeling than at the beginning.
The control room has changed.

It was also a bit roughed up in Crimson Horror; I thought that he’d visited Victorian claricle after the end of that episode. The control room may have changed following the loss of Amy and Rory? Not sure who suggested that one but I liked the idea.

Nightmare in Silver

Continuity:

The Cyberman is the 699th Wonder of the Universe when it should be the 700th.

Not sure about this; after a previous conversation with @Shazzbot, I dug up a reference to the 700th Wonder of the Universe (the Great City of the Exxilons) being lost in the 4th Doctor’s era. What was it… Yeah, Death to the Daleks. Another continuity thing!

Souffle Girl? She simply called herself in the beginning of TNotD based on her mum being excellent at them and trying to repeat that. Plus, you know, she is a girl. In the second mention near the ending, it’s a reference to ‘getting it right’ – undoing the influence of the GI. How does the Doctor know it in AotD? Well, it could be from learning she, Dalek claricle, made them and her gender. I know, too straightforward.

@topperofgallifrey

Question to people, when Jenny and Strax died how come Vastra didn’t die? Can anyone explain?

Yes. In the original timeline, Strax died in AGMGTW and was brought back by Vastra and Jenny to form the Paternoster Gang. Jenny was saved by him. Vastra didn’t die but was stopped from killing workers in the London Underground. Had the Doctor not done that, she’d have continued along those lines.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@satsumajoe – ‘too simple’ is definitely a drawback in the wonderful world of bonkers theories. 😀

I can easily believe they both came up with the nickname independently; the question then would be why? It would have been extremely easy to include the nickname in the Doctor’s rant in Journey. So why leave the audience with a situation where the Doctor and Clara both independently come up with the same nickname?

I hesitated over including the 699th Wonder of the Universe, but the point is that after Exillon there are  699 wonders left. Usually when someone is trying to sell something as amazing, they use the phrase ‘8th wonder of the world’, that is, it’s extra to the official 7. So ‘699th Wonder’ implies that there’s now a different number of ‘Wonders’ to the previously official version.

@scaryb – concentrating on Clara was an awful lot better than concentrating on my stomach bug… 🙄

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@bluesqueakpip Well, there is that possibility (which I hadn’t thought of!) or that another Wonder is gone and it has taken the number. Or a mistake? Nah!

He didn’t know Prime made souffles? Too simple again. When jumping into his own timestream, he somehow imbued his pre-timestream self with echoes of memory. Not just his own since then (rather, from encountering claricles to jumping) but those he witnessed of Prime’s life within it. In fact, might it be that his dodgy memory is a cause of that jump? Much like claricles have elements of Prime – from Oswin, computer skills, souffle, governess/junior entertainment officer? Never all at once.

I’m nearly sure that makes a sort of sense.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip @satsumajoe

Souffle girl… am assuming BSP has best memories of this since just watched with a very analytical eye! I thought the Dr had called her that in her presence, but no?  Maybe CarlaPrime now has a memory of Souffle Girl because the beginning of this episode is now post Clara jumping into the timestream?

Mothers/daughters – AotD opens with Darla von Karlsen ostensibly trying to save her daughter. Clara’s mum. Mrs Gillyflower and Ada.  Dead mothers – DvK, in The Snowmen, the Maitlands, Clara’s… Not sure where I’m going with this, LOL, but just flagging it up again 🙂

Hope you’re feeling better today and your pips are back in fine squeaking fettle 🙂

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb @bluesqueakpip Yeah, fair point. I’m rubbish at analysis! Hopefully my ‘Doctor’s jump affecting his pre-jump memory’ idea does support notes on Metebelis, breaking in TARDIS etc. Didn’t both the Daleks and Cybermen describe the Doctor as their potential saviour?

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@satsumajoe You could be right re the Dr’s jump, my point was just that we don’t need it – it’s enough that the GI then Clara have jumped in – that already changes the Dr’s memories.

And yes, good call  re Daleks and Cybermen seeing Dr as their saviour. Again that could be timestream interference (eg as opposed to him being their nemesis) or it could be anotehr riff on general Dr Who theme of the monsters aren’t always the ones you think they are.

OK, about to hop off to the brand new shiny 50th thread, but just some last thoughts on NotD. Having rewatched a few times, I love it even more. Realise it didn’t work for everyone but I thought it was beautifully constructed, multilayered story. We see a side of the Dr we very rarely see, when his guard is down. He talks about what it’s like to have time travelled so much, and we feel his pain over River (and I think the tear on the sofa is as much about her as it is about Trenzalore).

For those who don’t believe in River/Dr relationship, it’s mostly about what they don’t say to each other. River accuses the Dr of not liking endings, but she clearly doesn’t either. They suit each other, but their situation means there’s always doubt on both sides – it’s forced on both of them – there’s never a time they meet when neither of them knows the other. But they clearly mirror each other. The Dr doesn’t like dealing with emotions, River covers hers up with swagger. But they both clearly care very deeply about each other. The Dr’s revelation to River that he can touch her and that he can  always see, hear her, combined with our knowledge that she’s been in the library – ie dead – a long time, is very moving. I think that scene and the way Matt plays it clearly shows why the Dr is reluctant to get into relationships – even River, who can match him, is timey wimey in many ways, is still mortal, and considerably shorter lived than he is. Incidentally, River knows about Trenzalore in the conference call.

I thought the lighting was particularly good, and both Clara and the Dr look believably ill. Goes without saying the acting is great throughout.

Loved the whole Paternoster thing – the way they set up how the conference call worked was so concise – “I’ll send out the invitations, you get the candle” (EH??? Seconds later… Aah 🙂 )

Loved the scenes with the old Drs and the repeated image of Clara falling through the timestream, the camera closing tight in on her pupil – “I don’t know where I am”

I really liked that after being saved, the Dr reasserts himself and his first thought is to save Clara (which he does without any help). The Dr emotional again, talking about the significance of his name (“The Doctor” 😉 ). Clara faints when he says “He’s the one who broke the promise” Too big a retcon ever for her??

I thought the whole thing was very emotionally satisfying and tied up Clara’s, the GI’s and River’s arcs, albeit with a few ends still dangling. I loved the new implications that are introduced – that Clara only sees 11 faces and says “I saw all of you”, John Hurt is introduced as “The Doctor” just after Matt has said he isn’t the Dr. And that old continuity is potentially neutered.

Last anomaly – why is there a timestream flash on the right of the screen after the Dr is in his timestream, just after he finds Clara (42.45)?

[topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey]

ScaryB

I meant when they were in the TARDIS when the Doctor was dieing, Strax and Jenny died. Why didn’t Vastra?

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb No, I meant in terms of referring to her as Souffle Girl. While she calls herself that twice in TNotD, her future version doesn’t know it when the Doctor uses it. Yet he wouldn’t have heard Prime use it until just before she jumped. His earlier pre-jump self couldn’t recall it unless he’d affected his own memories through his own jump, albeit in pieces. The memory of adventures would be affected by Clara and GI actions; something on a smaller scale may not be. Not least as the GI had jumped in before she used the nickname so couldn’t be aware of it. Unless, of course, other claricles were Souffle Girl(s?).

Blimey, names eh? 😀

[ScaryB @scaryb]

topperofgallifrey Sorry. See @satsumajoe‘s reply further up. Basically I think that Vastra’es existance relies less on the Dr’s influence than the others.

@satsumajoe Sorry, I may be misunderstanding your point. As I see it, the Dr calls Clara Souffle Girl (but not to her face according to @bluesqueakpip ) from Snowmen on (based on his memory of her fantasy of making souffles in AotD).  I think  Clara  comes up with it spontaneously (but it’s the source moment for that AotD memory).

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb Not at all; I had initially come up with them merely coming up with the name independently but, well, we’re here. That’s much too straightforward. We don’t like Occam’s razor 🙂

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@satsumajoe – it’s not just not liking Occam’s razor – it would be bad scriptwriting. It would have been so easy to have the Doctor use the nickname in front of Clara – but if there was such an occasion, I didn’t spot it. (If anyone else does, let me know and put me out of my misery 🙂  )

In real life two people might come up with the same nickname independently. In a drama series of 42 minute episodes, two people coming up with the same nickname independently should demonstrate … something. That Clara has more memories than she should? That she and the Doctor have the same type of mind? Something.

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