The Winchester

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys

Malcolm Tucker and The Thick of It was revolutionary here. And Peter owned that hostility and vulnerability… which it seemed Moffat deliberately airlifted into Who. Not so much swearing.

Just had/having an online argument with a Big Finish fan for whom Moff is antichrist. Truly Who is broad church. But not for Chib maybe.

[winston @winston]

@ps1l0v3y0u     I loved The Thick of It  and particularly Malcolm. The contempt he had for idiots and incompetents and the way he expressed that contempt was delicious. I learned some totally new swears ,things I’d never heard before and I worked in a bar for 6 years. Peter was perfect as usual.

stay safe

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@winston

The detailed instructions he gave Ollie Reeder on where he should insert his I-pod and how Malcolm would then change the playlist…

Roger Allam was as (genuinely) classy as ever as Peter Mannion.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@nerys   I just listened to that.   Peter’s part of the broadcast runs from 8 minutes to 43 minutes, if anyone is pressed for time.   (And, somewhat to my surprise, yt-dlp (which is a fork of youtube-dl) successfully downloaded it as an mp3 file – handy if you’re on a data limit and don’t want the other internetty things to nibble away at you data while you’re listening.   Just go to the page, copy the URL from the browser, open a text window and type ‘yt-dlp ‘ and paste the URL and away it goes and downloads the whole thing in ten seconds.)   But anyway, interesting.   Myself, having listened to a little bit of Malcolm Tucker in The Thick of It and being quite impressed by his linguistic abilities, I was quite surprised that he could cool it down for the Doctor.   (I would have even even more surprised had I known that quite a lot of the invective on A Thick of It was apparently Peter’s own invention – he said the writers set up the situation and left him to fill in the blanks.)

@ps1l0v3y0u    You said “the Mondassian Cybermen were Peter’s rec.”   ‘Recommendation’?   (You can be a little cryptic at times  :).    I had thought they were Moff’s, but I could easily have misremembered, or of course they might both have been aficionados of them.   I’ve said before, I used to think the original Cybermen were the most cringingly naff villains in all of Who, painfully obviously just human extras in overalls.   It took Moff’s genius in World Enough and Time to make me realise that was exactly the point and how painfully horrific it could be.

[nerys @nerys]

@dentarthurdent @ps1l0v3y0u @winston I confess that I’d completely missed out on Peter Capaldi’s earlier work, with the exception of seeing him in Pinochet’s Last Stand (2006 TV film), which I believe we watched on HBO. And, of course, his earlier guest turn on Doctor Who. I’ll have to see if there’s a way for us to watch The Thick of It. Sounds good.

Oh, and I just discovered that he and Lewis Capaldi are distantly related! Makes sense, given where they are from and the fact that they share the same last name.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

yes, rec = recommendation.

I’m fairly sure Peter told Steven Moffat that the Mondasian Cybermen were the scariest thing he remembered. Moff thought they were rubbish but went away and thought about it. What a feat of imagination to imagine the Cyber factory as a terrifying Bakelite hospital and set it on a time dilated spaceship. The scene where the nurse seems to adjust the ‘baghead’s’ drip but then Bill discovers she’s just turned the volume of his speaker down…

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent    He “filled in the blanks ” in a most excellent way. He must have had fun with that. @nerys  The Thick of It is good for a laugh if you can find it. I got it at my library.

@ps1l0v3y0u   The Mondasion Cybermen are really horrifying because they show so clearly what or who they used to be. So human and yet they are monsters like Frankenstein’s creature. As much as you feel pity for them you are repulsed and frightened by them. Great episodes.

play safe

[WhoHar @whohar]

Just dipping my toe back in.

On the Capaldi recommendation for the Mondaisan Cybermen: IIRC Capaldi and Moffat had a conversation about Classic monsters that had not appeared in the new version of Who.

Capaldi challenged Moffat to write a story with a classic monster of his choosing, which Moffat accepted. Capaldi came up with the Mondassian Cybermen or The Axons.

Moffat (rightly) baulked at the Axons…

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar   That story is so good it just has to be true.

(And if it isn’t true then it ought to be…)

@ps1l0v3y0u   That moment of turning down the ‘patient’s’ speaker was probably the most horrific of the entire episode.

[janetteB @janetteb]

That scene in the hospital so perfectly captured the horror of being an ICU patient, the sense of being trapped in a nightmare world, of not knowing if you ever going to walk out again, and being entirely isolated from the real world and one’s old life. Even the best are frightening alienating places. Moffat captures that and adds another level of horror to it. One of the great episodes of AGWho.

Cheers

Janette

(apologies for not adding names. there were too many and it is late here. Been a long day but @everyone. Have been enjoying the discussion. )

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

And THEN Moff turns the horror UP!

Another ‘patient’ is apparently saying ‘Kill Me’. He’s lurching up behind Bill when Razor brains him.

Then, just in case we did’n’t get it, another candidate for full conversion announces, ‘Me Die, Me Die…’!

There are so many ideas there. I’m still not sure if the Saxon/Missy pay off was what it seemed.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb   I think the difference with ICU is that, in the latter, the patients are receiving the best care and they have rights.  And also, either fighting for their lives or in a state of relaxed consciousness.  So I think it might be less horrific for them.   (I’ve never been in ICU, other than maybe for 24 hours after my heart operation, but I was certainly confined to a bed for a couple of days and in hospital for seven.   And – side issue – I won’t say I enjoyed it (that would give totally the wrong impression) but it wasn’t unpleasant, and what i did enjoy was the chance to relax and do nothing without the usual guilty feeling of ‘I ought to be doing something’)     I think a better comparison might be a secure institution for psychiatric patients.

@ps1l0v3y0u   Oh yes, I’d forgotten them.  I guess because the ‘speaker’ incident was the first horror.

Moff did also show how such horrors could arise from perfectly commendable motives, carried too far.   The desire to cure ailments and stop people dying.   How far should one go, and at what point should one stop?  Heart operations  – no  (I say, as the beneficiary of one).   Pacemakers – no, they surely are entirely beneficial.   Artificial hearts – I’d say that’s fine, so long as the patient agrees.   But there must be a line somewhere.   Maybe it lies with the patient to agree.   (‘Okay, you can fit me with robotic arms, wheels and half an electronic brain?  Go for it!’)    Or not….

[nerys @nerys]

@dentarthurdent Yes, I’d agree that patient consent is key.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent I think the less knowledge one has of being in ICU the better. I unfortunately spent almost three weeks in one and that episodes did bring back memories for me, of the sense of being incapacitated, of being utterly trapped and isolated from the the world and the loneliness. It was fairly nightmarish especially given the various wires and tubes and throbbing machines, Our eldest fainted when he first came to visit. Certainly the awareness that one is being cared for helps but take that knowledge away and leave only the nightmare elements and you have the basis of a good horror setting, add a layer of callous brutality and cruelty and you have a deeply disturbing story. Moffat does it very very well.

I think to be trapped in a hospital, as Bill was, would be nightmarish too.

On a different note  I always wonder if the resemblance of the Master in the hospital to the character, Zathras in B.5. was accidental or deliberate. Either way it worked very well.

cheers

Janette

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb @nerys @dentarthurdent

well, you all seem to be taking The Darkness at The Edge of Moff in good heart.

In the words of Graham Chapman, ‘lucky we didn’t say anything about the dirty knife…’

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb   It sounds as if your stay in ICU was a lot less pleasant ( and several times longer) than mine, for which you have my sympathy.   In fact I’d paid extra for a single room rather than a shared one, just to avoid the possibility a roommate might want to watch rugby, or soaps, or something equally annoying on TV.   Only had one visit, but I never felt lonely for some reason.

All I can say is  that mine was, as I said, perfectly innocuous, probably because I felt limited only by my own physical condition and the nurses encouraged me to move around as soon as I felt  comfortable.   I actually have a phobia about being trapped, but it never manifested itself.    It’s all about feeling in control.   I once spent a couple of nights on a hostel in Christchurch in the old Addington jail, repurposed.    I had great trepidation about booking there since the rooms were the old cells, complete with massive doors.   I was apprehensive of my own reaction.   But in fact I felt no worries at all, because of one big thing – I had the key to the massive door in my pocket, and that changed everything..

I was just thinking of the hanta virus ‘suspects’ in quarantine near Perth.   I hope they’re being well treated, which is to say, I hope they have all the creature comforts and room service of a five star hotel.  Partly as compensation for their inconvenience, partly because it’s easier to avoid that feeling of being trapped if the ‘imprisonment’ is comfortable.   I wonder how much the aircrew was paid for going to fetch them (since they were also having to isolate).

[winston @winston]

@nerys  @blenkinsopthebrave      Happy Canada Day!   The place still looks good no matter what her age. I have seen a lot of maple leaves and flags on houses,cars,faces, fences and pickup trucks to celebrate the day. A sea of red and white. I hope everyone has a good birthday party however you want it.

I saw a sign the other day that made me chuckle for days. It read ” When Canada takes over the world,everyone will be sorry”

Have a great day eh. “True north , strong and free.”

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@winston @nerys @blenskinsopthebrave Happy Canada Day. I think the world could be ruled by many worse countries. (and probably currently is)

cheers

Janette

[nerys @nerys]

@winston I love that sign! “Sorry” is firmly entrenched in the Canadian vocabulary.

[WhoHar @whohar]

Now that we have a, um, short (!) gap until any new Who, just wondered what else people are watching.

For me: The Boroughs (although Netflix are not renewing), Widows Bay (which Apple are renewing) and The Fades (an old BBC show written by Jack Thorne, which they really should have renewed) are my recent picks.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@whohar Right now I am not watching anything because the laptop I watch stuff on in the mornings is out of order and at night I am too busy working, writing and editing podcasts. Earlier this year I caught up with Ludwig which I really enjoyed and Derry Girls which was entertaining. (Took a while I know.) followed by How to Get to Heaven from Belfast which was ok but did not enjoy as much. With the S.O we watched Night of the Seven Kingdoms which was good in a GOT kind of way. (was never a fan of GOT) the best thing we watched this year has been Small Prophets. (currently on ABC i view) I am editing a podcast with a friend who just watched it and she immediately mentioned the buckets.

I want to watch Widow’s Bay but not sure if I should wait to watch it with the S.O or watch it alone. He is very particular about what he watches.

cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

@janetteb

I’ve also seen all those, although did not finish How to get to Heaven… and I need to see the latest Derry Girls.

Small Prophets was excellent.

Re: Widows Bay: it’s a horror (not gory) with comedic elements. Would recommend.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @jeanetteb

Yes, I’ll be watching the new series of Ludwig. Gentle comedic mystery. The Other Bennett Sister was  dismissed as light-weight but that again was part off its charm: it actually worked.

Silo season 3 coming soon… in 2 minds about it, but I’ll watch it. Pluribus intrigued by I couldn’t stay with it; may go back to it. Also Slow Horses (the last story was better), Severance, and Line of Duty in production.

Chris Packham has a series about early evolution which intrigues.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar
I’m reading through Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series, in order. This is a long-term project. I do love an author with a good turn of phrase, and Pratchett certainly has that. So does Steven Moffat (of which more in a moment).
In between that I’m reading [geek mode ON] Hamilton Ellis’s British Railway History, Part 1. Which is what it says. Hamilton Ellis is a good writer and the shenanigans and manouvrings, alliances and rivalries of British railway companies in the 19th Century is a bit like following the convoluted history of Dr Who. [/geek mode].

As for what I’m watching, far too much Youboob. I still have the last 3 eps ever of Dr Who to re-watch. And a mixed bag of movies.
I’d single out the last James Bond movie, No Time To Die, in which he does (spoilers) exactly that. I think it’s quite a good movie.
Incidentally, the producers had teased that 007 was now going to be a black woman. Which caused the predictable commotion. And she was, but – thankfully for continuity – the number 007 had been reassigned to a new 00 operator on Bond’s retirement, Bond was still Daniel Craig. I’m quite okay with that, it respects continuity.
This raises the point of continuity in a series. Doctor Who, almost fortuitously, and I think uniquely, found the answer to that with regeneration. The Bond series didn’t have that luxury, so I had contextual problems with each successive Bond, though I gradually got used to it. I still couldn’t have accepted Bond as a black woman though, that would have been much too incongruous. It’s an identity thing, not a colour/gender thing, for me. Again, Doctor Who could get away with that thanks to regeneration.

Just watched The Fifth Element, Luc Besson’s sci-fi fantasy from 1997, with Bruce Willis and Mila Jovovich. Mainly because it’s fun. And Gary Oldman was excellent as the villain Zorg – incredibly rich, with absolutely no conscience – that’s starting to sound depressingly familiar today. For anyone familiar with the movie, Ruby Rod was a shock at first appearance, extremely annoying, though he became slightly redeemed as the movie went on. These days, he’d be an ‘influencer’ and his outrageous in-your-face persona now feels more credible, unfortunately. And maybe the current insane state of the world has toned him down by comparison.
Also Once Upon a Time in the West, Sergio Leone’s ultimate spaghetti western, with Charles Bronson in what was obviously intended to be the Clint Eastwood role, he’s subtly different from what Eastwood would have brought to it but, in my view, actually even better. Leone certainly knows how to build up tension, it’s a movie that needs time to watch, it’s no use watching in a hurry. And this time through, I found I could follow the entire plot, there were events I couldn’t follow on previous viewings. I found the same effect with ‘Blink’ and ‘Joy to the World’ for example.

Talking of which, right at this moment I’m going to spend the next hour and a half watching Steven Moffat’s interview on Youtube    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-wYCvusZ4     Thanks @whohar drawing attention to it.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u I really enjoyed The Other Bennet Sister too. there were some jarring modern lines and sensibilities and costumes were hit and miss but overall it was a delight.

I have only watched one series of Slow Horses as yet. The remainder is on my “too watch” list. I am not sure I will get around to Silo. too much to catch up on. I have the same problem with “For all Mankind” though I am going to give the spin off series a try. Anna Maxwell Martin is always excellent.

I will look for the Chris Packham series. Sounds promising.

cheers

Janette

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent I am still working through my first read of Pratchett. I recently picked up more books so now have only three to go to complete the series. I am currently on Jingo. Pratchett has that english style of writing, a tradition that really seems unique to the U.K and certainly influences Dr Who, especially Moffat.

Cheers

Janette

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Pleased to see you’re a Pratchett fan too. For some reason, to me the other work that most resembled the Discworld is Doug Adams Hitch-hiker quintet. Notwithstanding that Discworld is explicitly fantasy and Hitchhiker is explicitly Science Fiction. But there’s just something about the situations and characters that make them ‘feel’ remarkably similar, to me at least.
And of course Doug Adams wrote for Doctor Who, so I suppose it’s not surprising that Moffat shows a similarity to Pratchett.
If you’re up to Jingo, I assume you just read Hogfather, which I reckon one of his best. And of course it’s got Death in it, which is always a bonus. I think that middle period was Pratchett at his best (not that he was ever anything less than good). Did you ever see the movie of Hogfather? Certainly worth a watch.

Talking of Moffat, I’ve just watched the full interview with Moffat, it’s on a podcast called Half the Picture. About half of it relates to Doctor Who. One intriguing snippet is that Blink happened almost by accident, he was (according to Moff) down to write a Dalek two-parter but he realised he didn’t have the time. So, as compensation to Russell for ‘jerking him around’, he offered to do the Doctor-lite, the episode nobody likes. ‘Russell has rarely responded to an email so quickly.’
And Heaven Sent arose because Jenna Coleman could only do 9 episodes, which they allowed for by completely leaving her out of The Woman Who Lived, putting her inside a Dalek for most of The Witch’s Familiar, and Moff wrote a solo for the Doctor so nobody would notice Clara’s absence.   Which, he said, mostly worked.
And I can’t help mentioning that Moff’s estimation of Rose is the same as mine – re Empty Child, ‘He’s great, she’s great too and my God you can’t stop looking at her’. There are some people the camera loves, and Rose is one of them.

Also on Half the Picture is a full interview with Peter Capaldi, which I will leave until tomorrow.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Moffat… you would think Clara the Dalek was such a rich scene that the whole two parter was written around it… and indeed Clara can only save herself (apparently) by invoking a word which a Dalek shouldn’t be able to express. And so resolves the story. And leave many unanswered questions.

Adams… I still invoke the locked filing cabinet in the basement equipped with a ‘beware of the leopard’ sign. It’s very British bureaucracy.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

@janetteb

@ps1l0v3y0u

Also too much YouTube for me; it burns through my writing time so I really should stop…

Some interesting suggestions here. Big thumbs up for the 5th Element. I’ve watched it several times and always enjoy it. Incidentally there’s a Discworld book called The Fifth Elephant but that may be coincidence.

Re Discworld. I asked on here a couple of years ago where to start with the series as there seemed too many to choose from. @miapatrick (I think) recommended Going Postal as an entry point. I started there and began working my way through. I used one of the many Discworld guides to inform my reading order, rather than go chronologically.

See here for a good example:

https://discworldorder.com/

I’ve currently only 8 of the 49 (?) books but my reading (generally) has stalled, so I’m resisting buying anymore. My intention is to collect all of one run of the books and so have plumped for the slightly fancier hardback versions.

I am struggling to finish off my Jasper Fforde Thursday Next series – I’ve read them all previously but the final one comes out this October so I am going through them again. 3 books in (of 7). I always thought Fforde could do a good Who episode if he was given the chance.

I also see that The Fugitive Doctor has a multi-platform story out right now: Circuit Breaker. This runs over audio, comics, online platforms, so it’s a bit of a commitment. Interesting but I don’t really have the time right now.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@whohar

I think ‘Fifth Elephant’ may well have been derived from ‘5th Element’. It’s very common in literature and drama, I think it’s perfectly legitimate and a nice nod to the original work.
There are plenty of examples in Doctor Who. ‘Spyfall’ obviously comes from ‘Skyfall’ (James Bond). ‘Empress of Mars’ is very obviously a tribute to Edgar Rice Burroughs’ ‘Princess of Mars’ and similar titles. ‘World Enough and Time’ is from a poem by Andrew Marvell (quite hard to find the reference as Google is swamped by links to the Who episode). Robot of Sherwoood, Mummy on the Orient Express, Journey to the Centre of the Tardis, A Christmas Carol was a straight ‘steal’, there are many more. It’s an amusing pastime to go looking for them.

But then Terry Pratchett’s books are chock-full of literary references to innumerable fantasy and legendary themes. Far too many to even list. They add a little spice to the narrative. Same goes for Doug Adams’ Hithchiker quintet. In fact I’ve just realised why the two series seem so similar in tone to me, they’re both parodies or allegories of aspects of human society.

That ‘Discworld reading order’ you linked looks quite valid to me, when I started I found a similar list. ‘Jingo’ leads me to think you’re following the ‘Watch’ list. Good choice. Lord Vetinari, by the way, is one of my favourite characters. The list I would personally choose as a ‘do not miss’ would be the Death series (though he crops up in cameos in most of the books).

I think I’ve got all the Discworld books in paperback, picked up from time to time as used copies became available reasonably cheaply. As always, I was a late arrival to the genre, so I had a lot of ‘back catalogue’ to work my way through. I’m re-reading them in order of publication. This is very easy to keep track of since all the books have all their predecessors listed on the flyleaf in exact order of publication (something many series fail at).

@ps1l0v3y0u I always thought Doug Adams’ particular talent was the ‘man from Mars’ approach – looking at human habits as an alien might. For example (paraphrasing), ‘much of humanity’s problems revolved around the movement of small green pieces of paper, which was odd because on the whole it wasn’t the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.’ Or Ford Prefect, who chose his name in order to be inconspicuous. Adams had a talent for the absurd.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u   I guess Clara the Dalek only required Jenna’s presence when she was actually visible inside the Dalek.   The rest of the scene would have used a stand-in Dalek.   So with that, and one other Clara-lite episode which Moff mentioned but i don’t recall, I guess that amounted to one Clara episode saved.

And it appears the Dalek system translates any word it doesn’t understand as ‘Exterminate’  🙂

Reminds me of a censor program they installed at work when we were first (reluctantly) allowed to use the Internet – for work purposes only.   It would spit out messages like:  “Your attempt to access to http://www.recycledconcrete.com.nz  has been blocked.   Reason:  Pornography.   Your attempt to access this site has been recorded.”    All very 1984.   I eventually figured out that anything not on its ‘whitelist’ was ‘pornography.’   I used to screenshot these threats and print them out, I acquired a stack an inch thick.  For self-defence, in case some troll in IT looked at the records and said “Dentarthurdent has been looking for pornsites on his work computer.”   If that program was made physical, it would have been a Dalek.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent, @ps1l0v3y0u and @whohar

I am reading the T.P books from the beginning. Half way through now. Death is one of the best characters but htey are all gold. I think if I have a preference, and it is only by a smidgen, it would be for the witches. Granny Weatherwax, Nanny Ogg and of course the fabulous Greebo.

The tv adaptation of Hogfather was my introduction to Pratchett. I rewatch it most Decembers. Going Postal is also very good. I enjoyed the animation of Maurice. Apparently there is a second film in production.

And back to Who.. the Clara light episodes are a classic case of necessity combined with imaginative brilliance resulting in excellence. (akin to the coconuts in Holy Grail. It would not have been such a memorable movie had they been able to afford horses.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb I’m currently reading Lords and Ladies, which is of course a ‘witches’ one. Though my preference is for Nanny Ogg, which probably says something about my moral character 🙂

I’ve got the Hogfather movie on DVD, on my ‘rewatch soon’ pile. I’m a little surprised a lot more Discworld movies weren’t made. I guess with the wide cast of mythical creatures (not to mention the Librarian) it would have been difficult or costly to make 20 years ago; these days AI-guided CGI could I think do it quite effectively, *if* properly written and edited by an intelligent human. And using AI for the graphics only, *not* for the dialogue.

Frequently difficulties (as with the Clara-light episodes) can result in excellent episodes. Blink being the most celebrated one, Heaven Sent of course, and I think Listen was another. When you’re trying to economise on time, cast numbers, or sets, the writers just have to be inventive and try harder.
That approach is also infinitely better than some serials (mostly sitcoms) used to resort to, which was to have the cast sitting around a table saying ‘do you remember when?’ and recycling indigestible chunks of old episodes. That just looked lazy cheap and boring, and I’d refuse to watch. I don’t think Doctor Who ever sunk that low.

In the realm of inventiveness, I’m thinking of the original Alien movie, where the crashed alien ship was just painfully obviously fake (according to Ridley Scott), so they just showed it through the crew’s ‘suit cameras’ played back through an old TV with a lot of ‘interference.’ It worked. So did the fact that the ‘alien’ was only seen in its entirety for a few seconds at the end, must have saved a lot of cost, and the fear of the unseen is almost always greater than the seen. (ref ‘Listen’. Also Eaters of Light, where I found the monster anticlimactic when we finally saw it).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @whohar

TP… have I the patience to read the whole canon? I read Colour of Magic and Small Gods many years ago. Very enjoyable and intelligent. But that would be a big commitment.

There was a discussion online about whether anyone could make a satisfactory series from Aldiss’ Heliconia books. Having been quite unimpressed by what was attempted with Foundation, I thought it would be unwise. But I’d love someone to try.

@janetteb. I hadn’t noticed costume issue with Other Bennett Sister. I really wouldn’t know. The vibe with much recent factual Austen programs is that Jane is a (very) proto modern woman, so riffing on modern concerns is fair game. I enjoyed the general fluffiness of it and the gold-diggery of ‘the others’ was delicious.

An interesting and modern parallel was the episode of ‘Fake or Fortune’ concerning the portrait of Dido Elizabeth Belle and Lady Elizabeth Murray, great nieces of William Murray (Lord Mansfield), who of course inspired Mansfield Park. Dido was born in the west indies but raised as a gentlewoman at Kenwood (Hampstead) Murray prevented slavery from becoming legal by precedence in Britain, but was obliged to make Dido his ward for her protection.

A century later the name and status of Dido had been lost and the portrait was described as ‘Lady Elizabeth Murray and a servant.’ The Georgians do seem closer to us than The Victorians.
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[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

 

 

• This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Dentarthurdent. Reason: posted it twice

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u

You don’t need patience, or any commitment, to read the Discworld books.   Any more than you need a commitment to watch an isolated episode of Doctor Who.   The ‘recommended reading lists’ give the impression, possibly inadvertently, that each ‘series’ is one continuing story.  This is just not the case.   Although many of the characters are continued in each successive book, each book is essentially a self-contained episode, and it loses very little in the absence of ‘back-knowledge’.   The same way, for example, you could watch ‘Asylum of the Daleks’ without ever having seen the Doctor or a Dalek before, and still be entertained by it.   So you only need to ‘commit’ to one book, though there is always the risk of becoming addicted.

My choice (from many) would be ‘Hogfather’ which in fact was the first of the ‘Death’ series I read, and it didn’t suffer from not being the first.   In fact I later read the earlier ones as ‘back-story’ and it worked that way too.

But there are many others.   All of them feature Pratchett’s wry humour, original turn of phrase, and his entertaining allegory with the human world.

Actually Colour of Magic was the first of all, and I think he got steadily better over the next dozen books.   Small Gods I liked the least, because I found the character of Vorbis frightened me in his rigid and righteous and tyrannical intolerance.

So if you found those worthwhile, I think you’d like most of his others.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

For All Mankind has been recommended to me. Not sure its on my package though. Anna Maxwell Martin ought to make an appearance in Line of Duty too.

Slow Horses entertains and annoys. It would seem to occupy a very ‘LeCarresque’ universe and I’m not sure that takes kindly to send up. The ex CIA mastermind was ludicrous.

Chris Packham seems to be trying on Sir David’s mantle. I did like Attenborough’s First Life, from about 15 years back. Lots of Ediacara Hills and Burgess Shale. But the first enigmatic Precambrian complex life form was discovered in Leicestershire!

@dentarthurdent

It sounds as if the things you didn’t like in Small Gods were what attracted me. It was an effective satire.

 

Wish list for sci fi or other adaptions?

I mentioned Heliconia. The Lensman Series has never seriously been tackled. Or Earthsea! Azimov’s Elijah Bailey. Mind you all those could get hideously mangled.

But someone, one day, what with CGI, MUST tackle Peter Robinson’s Goshawk Squadron.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u    I agree Small Gods was satire.   I usually like that.  I just found Vorbis too close to reality for comfort.

All the other books are satire too, of course.   And I’m certainly not saying Small Gods was bad, I’d sooner read it than, say, anything by a less talented writer  (which is most of them).

[janetteB @janetteb]

Hi all

I have been mostly lurking for the last few weeks as have had a lot on, first a writing festival then a fundraising quiz night. To do lists plastered all over my laptop. We had the quiz last night and this afternoon the S/9 and I are heading O/S to vietnam. Will be away for three weeks. Maybe there will be some exciting Dr Who news to come back to, though I won’t be holding my breath.

Look forward to catching up on all the discussion when I get back,

Cheers

Janette

[winston @winston]

@janetteb    I hope you have a wonderful time and maybe some well deserved rest and relaxation.See you soon.

don’t forget your sunscreen.

stay safe

[Author]

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