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26 May 2013 at 10:29 #10977
And… Doesn’t the doctor call her soufflé girl inside the TARDIS at the end of The Snowmen? If Clara is linked with the TARDIS, is this how she knows?
26 May 2013 at 10:27 #10975In regard to the drinking of red wine… Wasn’t it tessalector doctor who spat the wine out, not the real doctor?
21 May 2013 at 18:51 #10227I should point out that my point about time travel earlier was intended to say that Clara being present in the Doctor’s time stream doesn’t change anything he did, just stopped the GI interfering. The only occasions where Clara has directly saved the Doctor to a point in the story is AOTD and The Snowmen (outside of Clara Prime), but only because The Doctor heard her and interacted with her. I was just saying that we don’t have to worry about canon being changed.
I agree that time can be changed, but a decision to interfere with time in the future to come back and ‘change’ something is a paradox in itself, as despite the act of ‘changing’ you haven’t changed anything at all, as the ‘changing’ was part of the event anyway.
I also think that if you yourself travel in time, you become a paradox, and immune to personality changes and behavioural changes. The only thing you can affect is your physical self, such as killing your grandmother to stop you existing. But as this can’t happen, you can never do that. I think…
Anyway, I just think we don’t need to worry about canon, but we can speculate on what the GI attempted to do to the Doctor in each adventure, and what Clara did to stop it!
In other news, I think the Time War has something to do with HurtDr, otherwise why did Clara see the book, and recognise something? That was all linked to the identity of The Doctor, so fits in.
21 May 2013 at 08:52 #10150Just regarding the debates about the changes to canon, and the changes to the universe/timeline etc…
Technically speaking, there are no changes to any of this. As with all time travel, you can’t actually go back and change time, because you already did. All time is happening at once. So therefore, Clara was always going to jump into the time stream, and therefore has always been there at every point through the Doctor’s history and future. She specifically states this, but that the Doctor doesn’t always hear her – in fact it appears that only 1 and 11 directly address her (and 10 in the 50th I presume).
So therefore, there is no change to anything in previous series, incarnations. Clara being there always has been the case, we (and the Doctor) just didn’t see her.
It’s for these reasons that technically (which is horrible really, because technically is SO boring) that something like Back To The Future can’t work – Marty was ALWAYS present in 1955, therefore couldn’t create an alternate 1985, because only that 1985 could exist. And I LOVE BTTF, and this pains me greatly to say.
So I don’t think there’s any reason to worry about disrupting the time stream or events, as they have always been that way..
20 May 2013 at 19:46 #10087@shazzbot I think he could have known about HurtDr from his future. He’s a time traveller, and knew Trenzalore was his grave, so he could well know about a future Doctors actions… maybe.
What if he is trying to do good work now, in the knowledge that he will later commit atrocities? A pre-atonement?
20 May 2013 at 19:35 #10083First off…. apologies to @badwulf, I have now rewatched for the third time, but this time my screen wasn’t subjected to glare from sunlight, and you are right, it is Trenzalore, not Gallifrey…. unless the two are one and the same?….
Second, I just thought, and I don’t know if anyone has said this at any point, BUT if Clara has occupied the Doctor’s ENTIRE timeline, and recognised “all eleven faces – you’re the eleventh Doctor”, how can she ask who the Hurt Doctor is? Surely, she would have seen him somewhere in the timeline?
Does this suggest that he in fact isn’t the Doctor? Surely she would have seen him and know him. So where or what is he?
Clara, who has seen the entire timeline, also confirms that 11 IS 11. Surely she would have seen Hurt as the first or 8.5 if he had been. Even 12 as well…
Unless the GI didn’t see fit to interfere with Hurt’s actions, as they were already destructive and diabolical? Therefore Clara had no need to involve herself?
There seem to be big contradictions/clues in that passage.
20 May 2013 at 15:27 #10038@badwulf I think what we see is larger and in the distance, like a ruined building, but I’m happy to be wrong, as what happens is usually better than what I conjure up.
Ok, new theory…. What if…
What if the thing he has done is not the Time War. Worse than that, he has at some point made the decision to make himself immortal?
The old limit of 12 regenerations has been shown to no longer exist (there’s an article on The G which refers to this), but what if he had to kill to do this?
“What I did, I did without choice”
“I know”
“In the name of peace, and sanity”
“But not in the name of The Doctor”
We have seen through the last few series what would happen without The Doctor – stars and galaxies disappear, evils run riot through the galaxy. What if the Hurt Doctor (#12 in this theory), old and ancient after avoiding death for so long with no regeneration, realised that for peace to exist in the universe he must be around forever?
He therefore uses what he learnt when River gave him her regenerations, and decimated the timelords in order to become immortal.
When 10 went, he said “I don’t want to go”. There was also the grandeur of that Doctor – “The Timelord victorious”. What if some of these remnants have been left within the Doctor? The desire to go on, the desire to be the saviour? Is this why #10 is needed to help stop #12?
The promise of The Doctor was to help others, to heal them, to sacrifice one’s self if necessary. What if #12 thought the only way to do this forever was to sacrifice his kin to help the greater universe?
We have seen similar thinking before with Pompeii.
This indeed would be a dark Doctor. How they would stop this, and still have the regeneration limit removed baffles me even more than the theory I have presented.
Yowza. I’m not sure where that all came from…
20 May 2013 at 14:26 #10014@shazzbot I love The Princess Bride. “Inconceivable!” could be a new word for the forum…
20 May 2013 at 14:22 #1001220 May 2013 at 11:17 #9986I wonder if what JH Doctor is looking at when his back is facing us is a clue.. looks like a desolated Gallifrey to me..
20 May 2013 at 10:21 #9980Jenny could still be the Doctor’s daughter – if the Whispermen didn’t know she was a timelord, maybe they only stopped one heart, which is why she didn’t regenerate, and why she was able to be brought back after seeming to be ‘dead’ for a little while.
It seems odd to me that we’d have two characters called Jenny just by chance.
19 May 2013 at 22:08 #9904Ok, I think Clara could be the future Doctor.
1. River asks how she could be there if Clara is really dead…. psychic link with Clara, hence psychic link with The Doctor.
2. In the timeline, The Doctor says ‘there’s only me here, that’s the point’ – you see Clara there, but no other people from the Doctor’s timeline (including Simeon, who did exactly what Clara did).
3. The Doctor says – ‘It’s the name I chose, the name YOU choose.’
4. As someone questioned earlier in the thread – why did The Doctor have issues with paradoxes when in front of the time stream initially, but then seemed fine enough to stand, kiss and move into it? Because the paradox there was Clara? The Doctor collapsed at the moment he said ‘the ones I haven’t lived yet..’. This seemed to bring it about.
So, does Clara become the Doctor?
If she already has previous in relation to influencing her own birth, what if her final act of ‘saving the doctor’ is supplanting herself into a regeneration, and before this sounds selfish, what if it’s to prevent The Doctor regenerating into Hurt’s Doctor?
4 May 2013 at 19:43 #7757The entire* history and future of Earth, blasted iPad and autocorrect.
4 May 2013 at 19:41 #7756So The Doctor seemed more knowing about Clara at the end…
What if he’d been trying to take the TARDIS to London 1893 to test what it would do. In previous episodes, it seems to have obeyed him in terms of where he was going (in Hide, it stayed in exactly the same spot thought the more history and future of earth).
So if the TARDIS refused to take them to London, is that because it was knowingly avoiding creating a paradox, or two people on the same timeline?
If so, who? Or what? Is she the TARDIS? Or the Doctor?
“I’m the boss” seems very significant. “I’m the master”?
I also have a theory which links in to the next episode… But don’t want to infringe on Spoiler territory.
4 May 2013 at 18:34 #7735And Clara now has something of a mystery herself to work out. And ‘next time’ looks another direction for her.
4 May 2013 at 17:59 #7726Ha! The bit with the sonic!
2 May 2013 at 10:39 #7570Don’t forget that when Clara inputted the password, she said ‘3’ but missed or skipped it and pressed ‘4’…
1 May 2013 at 20:45 #7486@Juniperfish@HaveYouFedTheFish Where does The History Of The Time War book fit in? If the Tardis we saw in the last ep is the first stolen Tardis, then how is that book in the Library? Surely, even in a timey wimey kind of way, that book is surley in the future of the Tardis. And if this Tardis is then ‘delivered’ to Hartnell, then either the book must be moved, or he becomes aware of the future.
1 May 2013 at 20:19 #7475Dammit! Now I know no one will believe me, but I was in the middle of typing a “11 stole the Tardis” theory, then had to go out for a meal, and partly because I thought it sounded inferior to the spectacular theories on her. Alas! I’ve been beaten to it 🙁
1 May 2013 at 08:17 #7335Just read ‘Summer Falls’. Plenty of sly references and thinking points in that brief tome.
27 April 2013 at 21:45 #6941I didn’t think it was parchment, it was a duster the Doctor was using, them he flicked it at te console after talking to Clara. ….
22 April 2013 at 08:22 #6348Scratch that, it’s the detail from his out which is his name in Gallifreyan.
22 April 2013 at 08:17 #6346Just to reference a detail on the poster for The Name of the Doctor- on the word Doctor, which is presented afm some form of metal, there are slight inscriptions similar to the detail on the fob watch belonging to Ten ain’t he family of blood, and the Master.
Could this reference a hidden timelord?
21 April 2013 at 12:43 #6258I also wonder abut the conversation the Doctor and Professor had in the dark room.
“What do you think she is?
“Not what I thought she’d be”
“What did you think she’d be?”
“Fun”
It was set up as if they were talking about the ghast, but I think the Doctor was alluding to Clara as well. This was just after her speech about being ghosts, and her reaction was probably different to how other companions react when shown the wonders of time travel.
Is this why another reason why the Doctor distrusts Clara? Or at least is struggling with how she is? She’s not yet impressed with the Doctor yet.
The TARDIS also selected an image of herself as the image of ‘someone she holds in esteem’ – is this normally the Doctor, but Clara doesn’t feel that way about him?
21 April 2013 at 10:05 #6244Quick note on the bow ties – could be two explanations for the Doctor having the tie on and then not on in the same scene;
Either there are two doctors in the forest at the same time OR they have used footage from the end sequence, where the Doctor returns to bring the ‘monster’ back, and has his tie back in place, which means it’s simply a continuity error.
Obviously, we have previous of costume details being important to story arcs, so could be significant.
Question is, why would two Doctors be there?
Could this series be a contest between the true Doctor and the dark(?) Doctor to be seen as the real Doctor – so the second Doctor shows up in the pocket universe, and he’s the one who grabs the Tardis, therefore supplanting the one who had travelled there to save the time traveller? Why that Doctor would then go back to get ‘Romeo’ isn’t easily answered though.
Just another thought – Clara not being able to get into the Tardis – The First Doctor locked Susan out of the Tardis to force her to stay with David Campbell. Is her inability to get in it the Tardis recalling that directive?
Clara also flew (albeit rather badly) the Tardis – aren’t The Doctor or River supposed to be the only ones who can fly her?
21 April 2013 at 08:33 #6240thedoctordude When the Professor is preparing the photoboard for the Doctor to look at, The DOctor takes a photo of himself, which I imagine is the photo we see with the Ghast in it.
Good spot on the ’11th most disgusting thing ever invented’.
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