S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS

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    Timeloop @timeloop

    @Juniperfish Dont they refer to a pocket universe in Hide?

    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @timeloop     Yes, you are right. Forgive me – I try to forget about Let’s Kill Hitler

    But…the Doctor’s first meeting with River as an adult, has that happened yet? Its a paradox. Isn’t it?

    If Hartnell met River, then Tennant would remember her, but  he doesn’t. River tells Tennant she has seen several faces – so she knows about him. So those meetings must be in Tennant’s future.

    But when does the Doctor first meet River in his timeline?

    The fact that River can regenerate makes this harder – she could have a completely different form (and name) when the Doctor first meets her – its possible.



    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @timeloop    Oh, and if I give you the clue “H” is for Hartnell and “T” is for Troughton, I’m sure you will work it out… 🙂

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @htpbdet What dont you like about it?

    His first meeting with her in that form is in the Liberary, her first is LKH.

    I actually hope that River somehow regains the ability to regenerate. I like to think that the Doctor came as an older version back on that day in the liberary – as long as the truce still exists and gives her some sort of flesh form (which we know he could). Knowing his name remains something very special and that way he wont have to loose her at all and actually rescues her completely. She does not need to keep her appearence so Alex COULD be replaced while the character River Song (<3) survives… If she keeps traveling in the opposite direction most of the time she would end up with another appearence in Galifrey ( and stalking younger versions of the doctor)

    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @timeloop     In the words of the Third Doctor – practically everything!  Sorry!

    Has River lost the ability to regenerate? Or do you mean post being stored in Forest of the Dead?

    Trouble is – we have seen her become River in Kingston form and we have seen her die/be saved by upload in Kingston form. So she has to be rescued from her fate in Forest (possible) in order to regenerate or having regenerated from the Kingston form she would have to regenerate back into it (A possibility, I guess, following Romana’s antics in Destiny of the Daleks).

    Still….as you say, she could regenerate…somehow…

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @htpbdet Really? I’m sorry to hear that. I love her regeneration there and the moments right after that (Everybody realising who she is [BBC America – depends if you can see it. funny comments on that one as well]).

    Yes. She used all her future regenerations to bring the doctor back from her kiss of the judas tree. So early in her life and no regeneration left.

    the doctor could get her out of that computer core, giving her a new body (flesh). still she would not be able to regenerate.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Lots of new posts – brains are working overtime 🙂

    @bluesqueakpip – absolutely beautiful post on the Dr and children last night; had no end of dust in my eye after that one!  re your Clara as programme theory – the scene where she takes the Dr’s hand and he notices the burn – he describes her skin as being like parchment – my first thought was just cos it’s thin and fragile then I remembered it’s also what you write on 🙂

    Also agree with you re Clara’s “I saw it on the tiny…” I think the toy Tardis is the only thing that fits that description that she picked up.

    Love the theory about a photo in the Big Book being of the person who gave her the phone no. That would fit with her tone when she says “So that’s who…” (It didn’t sound like a big revelation, more like a small piece of jigsaw slotting into place0.

    So who?  River certainly has form when it comes to getting messages to the Dr in unconventional ways. She also has form re knowing what’s going on and trying to manipulate, possibly on the Dr’s orders, and access to a time bracelet.  Incidentally I agreee with @htpbdet – on River’s timeline – she can’t have met him before Tennant (not in that form anyway, and it was certainly implied that she gave up the rest of her regenerations in LKH) or Tennant would have recognised her. She implied then that “her” Dr was an older one which would suggest that she could be around for a bit yet. NB They meet out of order, seemingly randomly re timelines.  @timeloop while I can’t imagine she’s very happy in the peaceful tranquility, the Dr (or whoever) would need a spare, presumably living, body to transfer her consciousness into – bit of an ethical minefield there!

    Knowing they’ve trailered Rose as coming back, she’d also need to go in the frame, as someone who has reached out of her pocket dimension before with a warning.

    HolyMackerel @holymackerel

    A cogitation on how Clara deciphered the History of the Time War. Is it written in both Gallifreyan runes and English or other translatable language? It has both on the cover after all. Clara could have seen the runes on the cot and recognised them in the book next to the Doctor’s name.

    I do on the other hand think that the tiny thing is the toy TARDIS. Could the runes have been carved on there also?

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @scaryb I just rewatched that part (“so thats who”; “you were mentioned in a book” “you call yourself doctor, why do you do that? you have a name- I’ve seen in in a corner of that tiny…”) and “so thats who” could really refer to somebody else. the second part would make no sense if there was something else meant than the book. I could see nothing on Amys TARDIS, even when she picks up the magnifying glass she does not squint or anything-no pause- and moves right on to the umbrella she used herself. That seems a bit far-fetched to me. Maybe she has seen the name “John Smith” in the book and just though that this would be his regular name or his name is nothing special to her (she has not been around as long as most of you have)…. Nevertheless I like the idea that she saw the person who might have given her that service number.

    In “the rebel flesh” and “the almost people” there were actual flesh-versions. that is what i am refering to. there would be no body on ice IF that would be possible for river song. The doctor seems to approve because he sends one of the doppelganger back to the “real” family and liked his other self as well. But it is a kids show, so maybe not..

    Anonymous @

    @timeloop – my take on the book that Clara recognizes the Doctor from. It’s not the “Time War” book, that’a red herring, the book is “Summer Falls” – Clara has read this.

    It is also full of clues btw – the Doctor is Barnabas in that book and the TARDIS is the shed. That’s what she means when she gives the book references and this is probably the secret of his name too….a way of avoiding telling his real name and yet not copping out.



    HolyMackerel @holymackerel

    Mentioned in a book, not I read it in a book. The book might be the Encyclopedia Gallifreya and she heard something in the whispers when it spilled.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @timeloop   Problem with the gangers is that they need an original before they can be created. The gangers we saw were anomalies remember, given independent life by frankensteiny-lightning. Usually they operated like avatars in a computer game, like an extension of the original.

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @scaryb thats why she does not need the same appearence. the doctor could go back there 10 years from now and the character river song would still be available.  that way DW is not bound to alex. just a though anyway

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    We have yet to see River’s first encounter with the Doctor. We have seen the Doctor’s first encounter with her,Silence in the Library, but not hers with him.

    @HTBPDET – I don’t think it matters. River’s entire life story depends on the Eleventh Doctor. She might meet earlier Doctors – and we know she met Ten – but her existence depends on Eleven deciding to take Amy and Rory for a honeymoon on the TARDIS.

    So in a philosophical sense she doesn’t exist before the Time Lock or the Time War, because her existence is dependent upon them happening. I would say, therefore, that she cannot enter the Time Lock (barring its partial or complete breakdown).

    I don’t think she’s the First Doctor’s wife, either, unless she married him again under a pseudonym. The Tenth once remarked that he was rubbish at weddings: “especially my own”. The implication is that he’s a widower when he marries River.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @timeloop. You may well be spot on that the TARDIS re-directed Clara’s call to an ordinary help-center to the TARDIS. It certainly makes sense; goodness knows if it’s right!
    My point is that the crucial event in this part of the series is the simple fact that Clara phoned the Doctor, and that’s how they got together. The title of the first episode, after all, directs our attention to that moment. If Clara doesn’t call, the Doctor is stuck sitting in the thirteenth century, morosely staring at a painting, more or less without a hope of finding her in space/time. My bet is that, when we know who made that phone call happen, we’ll know who or what Clara is, and how she matters to the Doctor. It might have been a friend; it might have been an enemy; it might have been a more neutral agency, such as the TARDIS herself or an agent of the Silence. We just don’t know, but that is how this all got started.

    It is so important that I’m supposing we may get some clues to it through the series; if we don’t, we don’t have much of a chance. And, as far as I can tell, we have had nothing at all about it in the previous three episodes. Incidentally, nor has the DELSA point from The Bells of Saint John been picked up. I am still intrigued by that envelope, and there were wonderful theories about it on the forum for that episode (which, I have to admit, I have only just read, and felt very small when I realised how hard you work on this!).

    Anyway, all I am really suggesting is that Clara’s ‘so that’s who…’ moment in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS could be a clue to this puzzle. It might not be, and if it’s not, then all my speculations turn to dust. But If it is, what can we learn from it? Well, the key point is that whoever gave her the number was somehow also connected to the Time War, because that’s the book where Clara seems to learn the real identity of someone she had previously seen as nothing more than a woman in a shop.

    As has been said here, it could be River. No reason why not: @htpbdet points out that River might have been involved in the Time War, so she might be in the book. I accept that that is a possibility, and since in Moffat’s Who most roads lead to River, it’s very sensible to think that the woman in the shop is her.

    I am hoping that River is not the answer, so I want to entertain an alternative theory. Mine is based on the idea that we know one person who (i) was a Time Lady (it has to be a woman in the shop); (ii) was involved in the Time War, so might be in the history book, (iii) can somehow get out from, or at least project herself out of, the Time Lock, because she appears to Wilf in The End of Time, so might be able to appear, but is only be able to shape events by manipulating others, and (iv) is what one might call, rather ungentlemanly, a hitherto not-fully-used plot-point. More speculatively, (v) she might be related to the Doctor (his mother?) in which case the excellent idea that connections across bubble universes matter, and are places where blood calls to blood (thanks to @juniperfish) comes into play.

    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @fulcanelli, reading @timeloop ‘s quotes above just set me thinking, and then you made a similar point in the very next post…!  Something Clara saw in the Tardis (possibly the toy tardis, perhaps a raggidy doctor reference?) made her connect a character in (one of?) Amelia Williams book(s) to the doctor.  ‘You’re mentioned in a book’ wasn’t a reference to the history.

    I’m leaning towards the various suggestions above that whatever she saw in the history is related to whoever gave her the doctors phone number – it would naturally be something she’d be curious about, and wouldn’t be shocked to find a reference somewhere as they must presumably have a connection with the doctor – which would explain her lack of reaction.  However, I’m not sure it was River.  But only because I’m sticking to my theory that Clara being with the doctor now leads to a version of her being a dalek and the Dr becoming dalekised – and that’s why the TARDIS is pushing her away because keeping the doc and Clara separate will prevent that reality (ala the time zombies in this ep). And to me, that would suggest whoever passed on the Docs phone number had a more spiteful agenda. Just no idea who!

    trevelyan @trevelyan

    Hello everyone!

    Yet another long time watcher of all the theories!

    I admit I can’t come up with as many ideas as all of you have managed, my mind boggles! And fun as it is I can’t help but think that the big reveal will be painfully simple (kids show, etc etc) but hope it won’t be an anticlimax after all the possibilities introduced here 🙂

    Only thing I wanted to add for now is that I question the idea that Clara might be something sent to hurt the Doctor somehow…because isn’t that a bit of a repeat of what Kovarian had planned for River by getting her to turn up and kill him? Can’t picture Moffat doing the same sort of thing twice, unless Clara does turn out to be River,  Mark II (or III or IV). Was it ever explained how she got back from America as a little girl before she became Mels?

    I’ll step back and observe again now 🙂


    thebadfairyprincess @thebadfairyprincess

    I haven’t rewatched the episode yet, and am heading into an exam period in a few weeks, so please excuse any brain farts!

    I was thinking as I was reading this entire thread (we’ve certainly all got some cracking theories!) that the woman in the shop that gives Clara the number could well be the Time Lady that appears to Wilf? And then @fivefaces comes with it 🙂

    River is a professor of archaeology, could she not have written the book? In the scene where Madame Kovarian kidnaps her to put her into the spacesuit in Lake Silencio, isn’t she madly researching The Doctor?

    And who did the Tardis land on? That seems to me like it’s going to be something later on and we’re being led to disregard it now, so when we find out later on we think back to it and realise?! Tricky gets interrupted by the appearance of the Doctor.. and does anybody else recognise the shoes – leather boots with a strap around the ankle? I can’t put anything to them.

    I’m going to rewatch and see if I can still stand behind my ramblings..

    Anonymous @

    @osakahatter – yes, I think the book is key. It has a pic of Clara on the front and is pretty much stacked with clues – the painting for example which we know about.

    Personally I think Clara – Susan.


    Anonymous @

    First chapter of the Summer Falls book here

    Pretty clear that the man – Barnabas – who is ‘between names at the moment’ is the Doctor and Kate = Clara.

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @all who referenced me i have absolutely no idea right now. i wouldnt like everything pointing to river as well…. kinda boring.  And I dont think SM would do the same thing twice, would he? I mean his name is on the line with each episode.

    Which book are you refering to if not the history one? Did I miss something?

    Basically we need more clues. I guess SM might do something like he did before in the big bang- reliving certain episodes which have a different meaning later on “no, thats the point, you have to remember” (did you get that here before it was revealed?).

    I cant wait for the Doctors Name (8/8) :

    Q: What can you tell us about the finale?

    SM: It’s full of surprises and questions that have never been answered in the history of Who, including the Doctors greatest secret.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We’re not pretending, we’re not kidding, it’s actually going to happen.!!!!!!!!  The episode is called The Name of the Doctor and involves our hero in a conflict that is very, very personal to him.  Usually he’s saving other people, but this time he might be the one who needs to be saved.  We’ll also find out what makes his new companion so impossible and there’s a surprise that no one has got right so far, and one that will change the course of Who forever!

    River is in that episode- despite my theory that he told her his name at the singing towers to make sure he would trust her this might be the real thing. Love the character of River Song(SM: she is to the doctor what the doctor is to others) so I was really excited when I heard she would be in it.

    The next episode does not look like there would be a lot of clues in it. 6days to go to make sure…

    Timeloop @timeloop

    @fulcanelli I did totally miss that!

    Amy could have done that on purpose – how would she know what would happen? Did River tell her somehow and asked her to make a book out of it????????

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    TARDIS behaviour to date:

    Bells of St John:

     connects Clara to the Doctor when she calls – via the outside phone.
    Happily takes him to whenever Clara is – including in the prequel, when the Doctor didn’t even know that was when Clara was.
    Equally happily makes short hops with the Doctor and Clara. No real displays of temperament.

    Rings of Akhaten:

    Takes the Doctor and Clara where the Doctor wants to go.
    Happily makes short hops within the system.
    Flatly refuses to let Clara back on board with the little Queen of Years. At this point Clara starts to feel that the TARDIS doesn’t really like her.

    Cold War

    Basically says ‘screw this, I’m outta here!’ – as Clara falls into the water, losing consciousness.
    Plays a bit of a practical joke by relocating to the South Pole. Well, it was certainly the safest place on the planet…


    Again, pretty non temperamental when the Doctor needs to go through time.
    Rings the Cloister Bell – not because she’s in danger, but because The Eleventh Doctor is trapped in a pocket universe.
    Locks Clara out of the TARDIS. Is so determined to keep Clara out of the TARDIS that she activates the Voice Interface outside her door.
    Appears to Clara as Clara – which is the first time the Voice Interface has first appeared as anyone other than the current Doctor. Clara, the VI says, ‘esteems’ herself – which causes the response ‘you are a cow’. 🙂
    ONLY opens the doors to Clara after Emma has reopened the portal, so the the TARDIS has a way back and potentially can rescue Eleven.

    Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS.

    Is looking at Clara in a funny way (Clara’s strong impression).
    Ejects the Doctor from the ship (he needs to find the remote)
    Keeps Clara within the ship (so what does she need to find?)
    Given that she can create a maze (and does several times in the episode), doesn’t take Clara back to the ‘ghost’ Control Room immediately. Instead gives her a quick tour of the interior, including leading her to the junk room so she can see the cot and the mini-TARDIS, and the Library where the History of the Time War is helpfully positioned on a big lectern. Once Clara’s seen those things, she gets taken back to the ‘ghost’ Control Room.


    The strong impression I’m getting here is that the TARDIS is writing the script. If she’d opened the doors in Rings of Akhaten, for example, Merry would have had a safe place to hide, Clara and the Doctor might have found out a bit more about the set-up, and the whole story would have gone an entirely different path.

    Similarly, in Cold War, the TARDIS bails – not when they’re crashing onto rock, or when they’re sinking, both of which you’d think would be more likely to set off the HADS – but at the precise moment when the Doctor would have taken an injured Companion back into the safety of the TARDIS. Clara’s unconscious. The TARDIS exits rapidly before the Doctor can take her out of the story.

    In Hide her utter determination to keep Clara out of the TARDIS when Eleven might be about to die suggests that something disastrous might happen. Clara’s allowed in – not after she yells at the TARDIS – but when Emma opens the portal. It’s possible to save Eleven; suddenly it’s safe to let Clara on board.

    In Journey the TARDIS is both trying to protect Clara and seemingly ‘allowing’ her to see things that shouldn’t be seen. Or that the Doctor thinks shouldn’t be seen.

    And despite all this, she’s terribly uncomfortable with Clara. Clara can feel it; the TARDIS doesn’t like her. And yet…

    The TARDIS always takes the Doctor where he needs to go. Suppose where he needs to be is with Clara? Or, suppose the TARDIS has changed her priorities slightly. Suppose, right now, she’s taking Clara where she needs to go?

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip I like your thinking re looking at the Tardis (good to get away from DEMs for a while! 😉 ) Nice work on the list of Tardis-moods.

    Something else occurred to me – in BoSJ, Ms Kizlet sends a “task force” to get the “blue box” – they have the embarrassing moment at Earl’s Ct (?) when they try to pick up the wrong one, but it sounds like they’ve identified the right one after that. So – is that just a loose end / they never got to it as other events took over? Or has the Tardis been kidnapped by the GI? (In which case are we seeing an earlier/later version of it now?)

    Following that thought… the GI, being the non-corporeal version of the Doctor’s dark side* (let loose possibly in the Snowmen, but maybe before), has now taken possession of old sexy, invading her circuits as House did, but more welcome in some ways, as its her Dr, or a part of him.  Her recent apparent mood swings are down to her and the GI-Dr battling to get their own way

    (Could also explain her behaviour when she was exploding in TBB, and the doomy voice)

    *See recent new bonkers theory – he always has been (The name of the Doctor is the Great Intelligence)

    (Can also be seen as variation on @juniperfish‘s red/blue bow ties / double Dr /dark Dr theories)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip – just interested – did you rewatch it? Did you change your mind about it at all?

    janetteB @janetteb

    Just a few rambling musings after reading through all the good work done by the “Day Shift”.

    I am leaning increasingly to the theory that Clara is an earlier incarnation of River Song though I prefer her character to be one that makes occasional appearances. I think that Susan’s grandmother must have died before the Doctor left Gallifrey. Susan after all was “the unearthly child”. This leaves the “Governess theme” dangling. I also favour the idea that she is connected to the missing children of Gallifrey. We still don’t know what cargo the Alaska was carrying or why it needed an entertainment officer. JttCotT indicated a severe lack of entertainment on deep space missions or intergalactic trading vessels. I am certain that the Entertainment was not for the crew.

    Lots of nice ideas, @Bluesqueekpip. Nice work on the TARDIS moods. @scaryb. I like your idea re’ the G.I taking over the TARDIS. I have a sneaky feeling that we are not hearing enough about the G.I. Mofatt is distracting us from the big bad but they are no doubt plotting behind the scenes. Its seems increasingly unlikely to me that Clara is a construct of the G.I. but it is still possible she is programmed by them. She hasn’t been taking the Doctor to any snowy locations recently. Thinking of Snow and AotD I wonder if the planet was snowy before the crash landing of the Alaska. Maybe it was Clara who was generating the snow. Current Clara is associated with autumn rather than winter. Also she isn’t yet showing much evidence of being a screaming genius ie, her inability to steer the TARDIS.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    A quick post from my lunch break.

    @janetteb Intriguing idea about why they needed an entertainments officer on the Alaska!

    Not buying Clara-as-early River just yet though. Apart from anything else, assuming both characters discover this to be the case, it raises the prospect of on-going sexual shenanigans between the Doctor and Clara during season 8. At that point I would remind you of your own point about the kiddy show.

    Damn. Lunch is over. Back soon.


    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    We’ll also find out what makes his new companion so impossible and there’s a surprise that no one has got right so far, and one that will change the course of Who forever!

    Does anyone else find Moffatt’s hyperbole a bit of a worry? I remember he said that about Hitler and it turned out to be that River was Melody, which I felt fairly underwhelmed about.

    I am hoping he doesn’t do anything we all regret.

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @thebadfairyprincess wasn’t that Clara pinned under some wreckage that Tricky saw with his bionics?

    I like your idea that River wrote the History of the Time War. I think River is involved, but I don’t think she is Clara (or vice-versa). Perhaps she is some sort of eminence grise.

    I also think that Clara – though she doesn’t know it yet – is there to help the Doctor. Can’t see her being a badun – though that would be great fun. I’m also now convinced that she is an ordinary human being who will become special in the course of events. Hide and Journey makes this quite clear, I reckon.

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @blenkinsopthebrave – how is your never ending summer? Fab, innit?

    Apols to those still shivering in the UK/Europe 🙂

    janetteB @janetteb

    @blenkinsopthebrave and @bobbingbird I am hoping that you are both right and River isn’t Clara, things just seem to be pointing that way. I agree the indications currently are that she is an ordinary girl, and Clara herself clearly believes that she is, but I suspect that both person and background are cleverly constructed, either to help the Doctor or to destory him. I think that she is sent to help the Dr but doesn’t know it.

    I am also worried about MOffatt’s claim that his big reveal will change the course of Who forever. Not too much I hope.



    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bobbingbird – Well, it all depends on your perspective. As I recall, you reside  in an idyllic, small seaside town surrounded by sea, a gloriously big river with dolphins and turtles.

    I am currently occupying a stuffy office where the airconditioning is not working. (Oh for the glory days of the Qantas Club Lounge)

    So “Fab” is probably not the first word that comes to my mind.

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @bobbingbird @janetteb – “change the course of who forever” not “change who forever”. Quite a qualified turn of phrase. What “course” does it have now – “Man wanders randomly getting into scapes and fixing stuff?”

    Arguably the Key to Time in Classic Who was a course change, by giving the doctor a definite mission. Bits of Carmels tenure also implied he had an overall purpose/gameplan.

    The whole “lonely god”/”legend” thread of nu who is arguably a major course change from classic who, as is “post time war”/”last of the timelords”. Arguably therefore, Moffatts “course change” is to simply ditch both and reset and we all seem fairly sure that’s what’s coming anyway, so that could well be all he’s referring to.

    To me, “course change” suggests (as for all the examples above) a small change to the doctors motivations, but not to the formula of the show.

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @bobbingbird @blenkinsopthebrave “an idyllic, small seaside town surrounded by sea, a gloriously big river with dolphins and turtles” – sounds great. Where’s that?

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @bobbingbird @janetteb – surely Junior Ents Officer just implies Alaska was a cruise ship (so lots of humans for conversion) and Clara was – surprise surprise – basically a nanny?

    HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish

    @thebadfairyprincess @bobbingbird

    Good call on River writing the History of the Time war! That makes sense of why its written in English. It means that her chosen profession is now meaningful – a plot point, even – not just random.

    She could do it because she’s both a time traveller and has access to and the trust of the only first hand witness, the Doctor (and I suppose, the Daleks. I wouldn’t put it past her).

    Producing such a work would make her career and probably take her from Doctor to Professor. Getting the Doc to talk through that stuff, was probably good therapy for him and how they became so close. Learning everything he did explains why River holds him in such high esteem to the point she believes the word “Doctor” is because of him.

    And she knows his name, so could put it in the book, where the Doctor wouldn’t.

    I think that’s a fit!

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @haveyoufedthefish and @blenkinsopthebrave – sadly turtle and dolphin paradise was just a week’s holiday in North Haven near Port MacQuarie in NSW Aust. I’m now back in cityville with cars and meth-amphetamine.. ah well.

    Me too, RE: River writing the History of the Time War..

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @blenkinsoptebrave – bad luck on the stuffy office. I return to one tomorrow.

    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    Just read ‘Summer Falls’. Plenty of sly references and thinking points in that brief tome.

    thebadfairyprincess @thebadfairyprincess

    @bobbingbird I don’t think it’s Clara under the Tardis as it’s mentioned by Tricky that someone’s UNDER there and we see a pair of boots sticking out from under the Tardis and a pile of thick wires. Tricky is then interrupted by the arrival of the Doctor, who keeps saying that Clara is INSIDE – and we know she’s inside the Tardis not under it.

    whofan-matt @whofan-matt

    Hi everyone. Here’s my bonkers theory that ties in a couple of others:

    ‘So thats who’ does refer to the girl in the shop, but the girl in the shop is actually the doctor who has regenerated as female in the anniversary special (which would be SM’s: ‘change the course of who forever’, ie, the first female doctor) and so goes back in time to make sure that Clara gets the phone number for the tardis so she can call the doctor in BoSJ, and this is in the book which is written/updated by the tardis (maybe) who is leaking the past and future and hence knows the faces of the future doctors.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    “one that will change the course of Who forever!” – shouldn’t worry too much, we’ve already thought of several possibilities that might change the course of Who.

    Clara is the next Doctor. Having the Doctor playable by a woman will certainly change the course of the show.
    The reset button will be pressed and the Doctor will go back to the beginning – yup. Stuff continuity, we’re on an entirely new course!
    Dark Doctor – the Doctor can be a villain as well as a hero. Course changing – though I do think if they go in this direction, it’s going to be nanogenes, for the kids.
    Gallifrey comes back or Gallifrey’s children are saved, or he’s got descendants: all course changing from NuWho – no more ‘Lonely God’.
    The Doctor started out life as a terrorist/criminal/someone like the Master. Certainly change our view; he’s now a man searching for redemption rather than a natural hero.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just re-watched “The Girl in the Fireplace”. Moffat’s first outing. There is a point where she (Madame de Pomdadour) says to the Doctor (after looking into his mind):

    “Doctor. Doctor Who. It’s more than just a secret, isn’t it?” At which point he looks shocked and says: “What did you say?”

    Moffat. He has been thinking about for a very long time.



    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @thebadfairyprincess – I thought Tricky’s bionics allowed him to see inside the TARDIS -xray stylee – and saw Clara. I’ll have to look again (any excuse). Can anyone else throw some light on this?

    @bluesqueakpip – I’m not sure if any of these would satisfy me.

    Clara as the Doctor – I have no problem with a woman playing the Doctor. JLC is too young. Helen Mirren or someone like Sue Perkins for me.

    Back to the beginning with a clean slate – ok, yep. I could live with that.

    Dark Doctor as villain and hero – I think that’s already been made clear, so wouldn’t be a game changer

    Gallifrey comes back – doesn’t really change the course of DR Who

    Doctor as Master type (eg a terrorist)- wasn’t this hinted at way back during Pertwee’s era?

    I still think we are missing something hidden in plain sight (no change there, then)

    Anonymous @


    You could be on to something here – have been thinking along these lines for a while. One possible scenario is:

    Something happened to the Doctor – possibly when he returned from the dead after Impossible Astronaut (note Clara is “The Impossible Girl”) – and he was replaced by someone else. Perhaps partially, perhaps wholly though he does not know this.

    In any event he is not the Doctor. He is someone bad – possibly the Master. Something stops this from being complete so he is in a kind of limbo where his ‘badness’ is not fully actualized. Half way house.

    Something will remove this and he will embrace his bad-ass self!

    He will be defeated and the real Doctor will return – possibly in a new guise. Possibly Clara is the Doctor also in half way house but possibly we will see new regeneration.

    TARDIS does not like Clara because she is ‘good’ and TARDIS, being linked to Doctor is also ‘bad’. Hence Zombies, the comments about ‘good guys don’t have them’ and the TARDIS ambivalent attitude in last episode.

    Zaphod @zaphod

    @bobbingbird @thebadfairyprincess I’m quite sure those are the doctors feet and they are visible (on the 11th viewing) even before Tricky points them out. Tricky refers to the TARDIS as being alive and suffering rather than Clara.

    @bluesqueakpip I don’t know if Clara Is the Doctor but besides finishing his sentences in the exploded TARDIS engine room she seems to be mirroring him physically (I noticed this in the scene when the fuel rods are falling down), the slight cock of the head before running and they way they both stop running.  So maybe she is becoming the Doctor?

    thommck @thommck

    Yes, defo was the Doctor under the TARDIS. Well they’re his shoes anyway.

    @zaphod just gave me an idea…

    What if nanogenes are stuck on the Doctor (from AotD episode) but not affecting him. However, now Clara is travelling with him they are trying to convert her into a Timelord!?!

    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird


    I’ve even been thinking that the TARDIS not only takes the Doctor where he needs to go, but also creates what he needs to fight. The universe as his plaything. But that would be far too dark, wouldn’t it?

    It’d also be too dark if Doctor 11 turned out to be the big bad. Unless this is true in only one of @juniperfish ‘s three alternate realities…

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    Morning/ evening all – I see the nightshift has had dolphins and turtles and TARDIS temper-tantrums and all-sorts.

    Waves at new posters @thebadfairyprincess and @whofan-matt

    @Fulcanelli Well I definitely think you’re onto something on the “impossible” front, but to me that points again to Clara being a Pond:

    Mad Impossible Amy Pond = Amy

    The Impossible Astronaut = River

    The Impossible Girl = Clara

    I do like @bluesqueakpip ‘s idea that all the Doctor’s female relatives/ loves (including the TARDIS) are combining to save him.

    And I suppose what is impossible about the Ponds is that the Doctor, destroyer of his own people, has been “impossibly” gifted with new new Time Lords, thanks to Amy’s pregnancy in the TARDIS, River’s conception as a “child of the TARDIS” with a set of regenerations and now, we think, two hearts and then (I strongly suspect) her own children with the Doctor.

    The dark Pied Piper who locked away all the children of Gallifrey and lost his own, gifted by a universe at once cruel and forgiving with children of his own again.. 


    Bobbingbird @bobbingbird

    @juniperfish – and of course the acronym of Amy, River and Clara is ARC. As in the three season arc. Maybe they are all intrinsic to Moffatt’s tenure, and inter-relate.

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