S33 (7) 11 – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
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2 May 2013 at 09:39 #7558Anonymous @
@HTPBDET – “but there is something about those [Maitland] children…”
Well, the boy’s name is ‘Alfie’ isn’t it? Which is sorta like ‘Alpha’. 😉
2 May 2013 at 09:47 #7559@whohar I may be wrong but I don’t think Hartnell ever said anything precise about his age. I don’t think any Doctor was specific until Tom Baker.
@Shazzbot Yes, quite right. Some time would need to be spent on Omega – but really it could be quite simple:
“Clara: Omega?
Dr: The first Time Lord. He sacrificed his life to give time travel to my people. Well, not sacrificed exactly – he ended up , alone, in an anti-matter Universe. He went mad slowly. Very very slowly.
Clara: Bit like you then?
Dr: Quite a bit. Except I took more time to get there. Possibly. Anyway – he has been trying to find a way to come back into our Universe for some time. I have stopped him twice – last time I sent him back to his lonely prison.
Clara: He’s not going to be pleased to see you then.
Dr: Possibly not…”
As to 123 – well, we assume its three Claras – but maybe its three Doctors: 1, 10 and 11?
2 May 2013 at 09:55 #7562Anonymous @@HTPBDET– “As to 123 – well, we assume its three Claras – but maybe its three Doctors: 1, 10 and 11?”
Ohh, goody, someone who knows numbers! I have a tired old joke that I love to trot out whenever there’s a mathematician around:
Q: Why do mathematicians confuse Hallowe’en with Christmas?
A: Because Oct31 = Dec25.
(ba-doom-tish! Ok, maybe not a joke per se; as one person replied ‘that’s not a joke, it’s just bloody annoying!’)
2 May 2013 at 10:29 #7565Anonymous @There’s a bit of discussion in the 50th anniversary thread about the BoSJ prequel clip, and something in that made me think of the theories flying about that Clara is a Pond of some sort.
Little Clara lists to the Doctor things she’s lost when explaining how she’s always losing things. She says, ‘My best pencil, my schoolbag, my gran, and my mojo’
Now, I could have heard that wrong (after 3 tries) but it really sounds like ‘my gran’. So, did she lose River Song?
2 May 2013 at 10:30 #7566@shazzbot OK, you have to explain the mathematican “joke”. Neither Mrs Blenkinsop or I could figure it out.
2 May 2013 at 10:32 #75672 May 2013 at 10:38 #7568Little Clara lists to the Doctor things she’s lost when explaining how she’s always losing things. She says, ‘My best pencil, my schoolbag,
my gran, and my mojo’
Now, I could have heard that wrong (after 3 tries) but it really sounds like ‘my gran’. So, did she lose River Song?Thanks for reminding me. I must admit that was one thing which made me think she was Susan. She knew her real grandmother was dead and she had lost her Mojo – her grandfather, i.e, the Doctor.
I knew there was a reason I did not think River was going to be Clara’s grandmother – this was the point.
Imagine the fun exchanges between Clara and her “new” Grandmother…
🙂
2 May 2013 at 10:38 #7569Anonymous @In decimal numbers, DEC25 = 2×10 + 5 = 25
In octal numbers, OCT31 = 3×8 + 1 = 25
(I heard you groan from here!)
2 May 2013 at 10:39 #7570Don’t forget that when Clara inputted the password, she said ‘3’ but missed or skipped it and pressed ‘4’…
2 May 2013 at 10:40 #7571Anonymous @@HTPBDET – darn, you’re right. The Maitland children are Angie and Artie. {sigh} Well, at least that means you might be safe from your ‘The Doctor’s name is Alpha’ horror!
btw, thanks so much for that potted history of Omega. It was succint and informative and surely if Moffat re-introduces that character, he’ll do it in a few lines like that.
2 May 2013 at 10:42 #7572Anonymous @@davemorris316 – that could indeed be important that she mis-typed 4 instead of 3. As an Occam’s Razor point, though, perhaps the mis-typing was simply what was needed so she had to re-click on ‘the internet’ and that 2nd time she ‘accidentally’ chose the GI’s wi-fi.
2 May 2013 at 10:43 #7573@Shazzbot. Thanks! But…remind me not to take mathematicans on a pub crawl.
2 May 2013 at 10:51 #7574@davemorris316 Yes – I think that the 4 was just to suit the story of Bells.
2 May 2013 at 10:52 #7575Anonymous @@blenkinsopthebrave – tee hee! But I’ve been on many a pub crawl with mathematicians / computer programmers and they’re pretty good fun. One [very late] night, we ended up in a pub with a blackboard which some previous wags had scrawled all sorts of numbers on. My group immediately started trying to find a logical sequence in all sorts of base numbers (well, it was funny at the time, but then we had been drinking for about 10 hours previous to that … and they were tipsily trying to echo the Bistro in H2G2 😉 )
2 May 2013 at 10:59 #7576And for those who like such things:
Angie Maitland is an anagram of Data Angel Mini
Artie Maitland is an anagram of Data Terminal I
Just saying…
2 May 2013 at 11:05 #7577So the maitland children’s full names are Angela and Arthur. interesting. (don’t think Morgana le Fay was too angelic.) Just looked up the surname but can’t spot any significance about it. IT is one letter off from mainland. Can’t think of anything else. Maybe it is jsut a name.
Cheers
Janette
2 May 2013 at 11:07 #7579Anonymous @@janetteb – someone on some thread here pointed out the ‘Maitland’ is the surname of the ghosts in Beetlejuice, so it could just be Moffat having fun referencing yet another pop culture icon as well as folding in more of the ‘ghost’ meme into the arc.
Oh, and I knew a little boy called Artie which was short for Artel, which is a Finnish name.
2 May 2013 at 12:36 #7589@shazzbot – I agree that omega would need more intro into nu-who and would be amazed if we get anymore than a hint in this series, possibly as a trail into the anniversary special at the end of series 7. While I think someone like that is necessary for anniversary gravitas, i can’t see SM winding up all this threads this year coz I haven’t heard any suggestion he’s going anywhere? also, he may just be leaving snippets for whoever does eventually follow him to pick up on just as RTD did.
2 May 2013 at 13:11 #7591hi all, i think there is a connection between clara and cal (the computer from silence in the library.forest of the dead) so the idea of rycbar as a password of some sort is very appealing.
also Bosj and sitl both have similar ideas of souls being up and downloaded, anf if we speculater river has somwhow escaped the library…maybe via the library in the tardis?…creating some kind of paradox which causes the tardis to explode…3 times, one for each clara, maybe she is caused by each explosion…
2 May 2013 at 13:13 #7593@Shazzbot did u hear about the constipated mathematician who worked it out with a pencil and paper.
sorry everyone!
2 May 2013 at 13:40 #7597@bobbyfat – Clara could be an anagram of CAL, River and Amy. River to come up with the idea, CAL to do the programming, and Amy (possibly with Anthony’s help) to arrange the adoption of a baby designed to be whatever Clara is.
I’m still wondering if all these programming metaphors mean we’re going to end up with Eleven downloaded into the Library (which, for the newbies, I suggested several episodes back ::waves at all the new people::)
2 May 2013 at 14:05 #7599@bluesqueakpip You mean he is downloaded there to keep him out of the way or permanently?
2 May 2013 at 14:23 #7601If it’s right that Clara is some kind of manifestation of a computer programme or data, then in this episode we had Clara, who thinks she is just an ordinary girl, but really is an artificial intelligence; and Tricky, who thought he was an artificial intelligence, but was really just an ordinary boy.
2 May 2013 at 15:17 #7603@fivefaces that also plays along with the Pinocchio reference Clara makes from the Cold War episode.
Definitely seems to be a theme of inatimate/artificial/copies/myths becoming real and vice versa
2 May 2013 at 16:06 #7609Anonymous @@bobbyfat – “did u hear about the constipated mathematician who worked it out with a pencil and paper.”
And I’m lumbered with the rubbish mathematician joke mantle! How does that work. 😉
2 May 2013 at 16:28 #7610There’s been lots of good stuff to think about in this forum since my last visit.
One of the things that has especially caught my imagination is the importance of stories and storytelling in the past few years.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit myself lately, thinking of all the references to stories over the past few seasons.
Amelia Pond’s raggedy man was an imaginary friend who turned out to be real. An imaginary friend is sort of a story that a child tells to herself, and at some level imagines to be real. The people who knew adult Amy thought of the Doctor as an imaginary being she used to tell stories about, who then ‘became’ real.
If the series had started with the Eleventh Hour, audiences might have thought that Amelia/Amy had somehow conjured the Doctor out of her fantasies by some really intense wishful thinking, perhaps enhanced by that crack in her wall. IIRC, Amy’s opening credits narration in those days supported this. And if the theory that the 11th Doctor started it all by stealing a TARDIS and giving it to the 1st Doctor turns out to be right (love it, by the way), then the Eleventh Hour is sort of the start of it all.
Amy conjured up the Doctor when she wished for him in a prayer to Santa — and Christmas has been mentioned repeatedly in season 7.
Amy’s departure is a story about a story, told in a book the Doctor can’t bear to read because reading it makes it true. And since then Amy has continued to tell stories (as Amelia Williams).
In The Pandorica Opens, the Doctor is sure the Pandorica is a legend, and the mighty warrior it was supposed to hold a myth. And it turns out to be true… and about him, of course. Quite a lot of what we saw in the episode was conjured up out of Amy’s childhood imagination, just like the Doctor — the Romans at Stonehenge and Pandora’s box.
The common thread here is that something imaginary (or apparently imaginary) becomes real. So, how’s this for a 50th anniversary story: the BBC makes a great TV show about a time traveller called the Doctor, and so many people across time and space fall in love with this great story, that it becomes real. Through some sci-fi mechanism, a fictional character believed in (or at least loved) by millions of people becomes (like Pinocchio) ‘a real boy’. All that love conjures the Doctor out of the quantum foam. The Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story.
Anyway, here are some other story references:
Asylum of the Daleks opens with Darla von K telling a story about the man who fought the Daleks and died, but who might still return. And there he is standing right behind her. Telling his story conjures him up. Maybe this is how she contacted him?
A Town Called Mercy is told as a story narrated by someone from (presumably) the present. We’re invited to think the story is about the Doctor, initially, but it turns out to be about someone else.
The Angels Take Manhattan. As said before, the story is told in a book which becomes true. Amy’s narration is prominent.
In The Snowmen, Clara has been telling the children stories about monsters (IIRC — I won’t see it again until it’s available to buy). Then, after meeting the Doctor, she tells them a story which sounds fantastical but which is true, about the man who lives on a cloud. (And then the Doctor shows up. Again the motif: you tell a story about the Doctor, and then there he is). And the little girl is conjuring the governess-monster from her nightmares, just as Amy conjured the Doctor in her prayer to Santa.
The Bells of St John: Amy’s novel is seen and discussed.
The Rings of Akhaten: The little girl knows all the stories; songs are stories.
Journey ttCotT: There’s a lot of books, especially the History of the Time War.
And I just realised. Tricky was Cinderella! Like her, he was made a slave by his siblings. He’s also Pinocchio; a sort-of-puppet-who-becomes-a-real-boy. And Clara mentioned Pinocchio a few episodes ago.
2 May 2013 at 16:35 #7611Anonymous @@PhileasF – you are on fire!
And I’m still bugged by Clara saying ‘That’s just basic storytelling!’ near the end of JttCotT. That line jarred more than her saying lines to camera in her last two incarnations. Who in real life berates someone for scaring her by referring to ‘basic storytelling’?
And don’t forget that Amy brought the Doctor back by remembering the stories of her time with him. And that Martha told the whole Earth stories about the Doctor to bring him back. There is definitely a story-telling meme here, along with ghosts (about whom we also tell stories) and dual people (about whom we tell stories, i.e. Doctor Jekyll and Mr Hide, and Romulus and Remus).
2 May 2013 at 16:37 #7612Official preview clip 2
2 May 2013 at 16:44 #7613Anonymous @@wolfweed – is that really ‘official’? I’m not one to look at ‘coming attractions’ previews because they skew the viewer’s anticipation of an episode.
That having been said, someone here suggested that Madame Vastra’s Jenny was 10’s Jenny-daughter-clone from the Hath planet, and that bit of action presumes her ability to deal with baddies quite well.
2 May 2013 at 16:47 #7614Seriously….if this happens:
The common thread here is that something imaginary (or apparently imaginary) becomes real. So, how’s this for a 50th anniversary story: the BBC makes a great TV show about a time traveller called the Doctor, and so many people across time and space fall in love with this great story, that it becomes real. Through some sci-fi mechanism, a fictional character believed in (or at least loved) by millions of people becomes (like Pinocchio) ‘a real boy’. All that love conjures the Doctor out of the quantum foam. The Doctor’s origin story is that he originates from the story
there will be death and plenty of it…
That’s a fan tale, combining the unrelenting horror of the worst aspects of Last of the Time Lords and Big Bang. Yes, it is possible – but that sort of storyline would be fatal to the programme. In my humble opinion.
That dreadful reference to the Earls Court exhibition in Rings was quite enough…
I think you are absolutely right that stories and storytelling are going to be crucial to the finale. The Doctor has been telling stories, hiding the truth about why he is called the Doctor. We are going to find out what those stories are, I think.
But, truly, I cant see a story as self-referential as this – and nor do I think it would be desirable. Sorry!
2 May 2013 at 16:49 #7615@shazzbot Well…….yes, I have wondered for some time if the Jenny with Vastra was the Doctor’s Daughter Jenny…hmmmm
2 May 2013 at 17:00 #7616I’ve also been enjoying the discussion of Omega. The militant future Anglicans had an Omega logo, as has been pointed out. This is probably appropriate for a religious organisation. Apart from the religious association, it serves as a message to their enemies: when you face them, it’s the end.
The religious association: the book of Revelation says ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’ Very timey-wimey. As they say in the classics, this is getting needlessly messianic. By all accounts, The Name of the Doctor will be a kind of Book of Revelations for Doctor Who. Well, it’s supposed to contain revelations.
I thought the Doctor might be alluding to Omega in Rings of Akhaten, when he mentioned visiting a pocket universe where the laws of physics were devised by a madman. Pocket universes do seem to keep popping up.
The pioneering time traveller trapped in a pocket universe in Hide — this is Omega’s story in a nutshell. Except he was in his for a very long time, not just a few minutes.
The Eye of Harmony is in the TARDIS, seemingly arrested at a time shortly before it became a black hole. Which seems to mean that Omega must also be there, because he was present when the star became a black hole. So whatever it means for the eye of harmony to be in the TARDIS, it would seem that Omega’s in there too.
Would they introduce Omega all of a sudden in the finale or the anniversary story, without ever having mentioned him in the new series? Some say no. I think maybe. They did it last time (in The Three Doctors, that is). And nobody was too bothered that Rassilon came back with no prior warning in The End of Time.
2 May 2013 at 18:08 #7617random quote from series 5 a “i’ll be a story in your head. That’s okay. We’re all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? ‘Cause it was, you know. It was the best. The daft old man who stole a magic box and ran away. Did I ever tell you that I stole it? Well I borrowed it. I was always going to take it back.”
stories and memories seem to run through the whole moff era, but going back to cal, her problem was not enough memory, the dr offered to become an additional hard drive…2 May 2013 at 18:10 #7618I’ve just finished reading ‘Summer Falls’ (only a couple of quid on the Kindle) and there are a number of themes in it which crop up in this series. Not going into any details so as not to spoil it for others who’ve not read it yet, but I don’t think it is about Amy. I think the child in it is Clara’s mother – there is a reference to her having to learn how to make souffles and omelettes. Also petrichor is described too – the smell left when the Tardis dematerialises.
It was an enjoyable read though. Sort of a Doctorr Who meets Pollyanna/Famous Five.
2 May 2013 at 18:18 #7620@htpbdet Whoever came up with that idea is clearly a genius 🙂
As for anagrams…
“crimson eleven delight petrichor” can be rearranged to say “Doctor/River : Silence helping them” Is this just a coincidence? Is it possible that the Silence are not the enemies after all?Other anagrams: George Maitland – a timelord, an egg.
Mrs George Maitland makes for more interesting possibilities including riversong, timelords, dna, data, romana,… I can’t make anything coherent out of it all without letters left over though.
@blenkinsopthebrave I agree that breaking the fourth wall is significant. I think it’s linked to the other self-referential stuff people have been mentioning, such as stories within stories and lines in the script specifically about stories and storytelling. Another bit of self-reference is the fact that a lot of important dates in Clara’s life match important dates in the life of the TV series. It could all just be a clever postmodern wink to the reader, but I think it’s more than that. Why go to such great effort to keep reminding your audience that “this is a fiction, none of it is real”?
This is all far too much fun. I only registered this morning and already I can feel my productivity decreasing by the hour!
2 May 2013 at 18:41 #7621@Shazzbot – Yes – it’s doesn’t come any more official – it’s been posted on the Dr Who Official Website.
Sorry for handing out the keys to the sweet shop (for those who want to – but can’t resist).
I did try to treat ‘The History of the Time War’ like a spoiler even though that was ‘officially’ leaked, as it seemed too juicy.
If people don’t want to be really skew(er)ed ‘spoiler style’, stay away from today’s Dr Who Magazine (& Blogtor Who probably?!?). There is one small spoiler about ‘The Name of the Doctor’ that I personally found too revealing (others’ views may differ) which may provide a clue to the whole shebang! You have been warned! (Oops – more sweets)
I’m sure most Who Addicts will now rush to check this out(!) but I’d rather not have read it… It provides theories that I feel I can’t share (even though my theories will maybe turn out to be totally wrong) & which will now taint all my other speculation which is rather annoying.
Anyhoo, as we draw to the series conclusion I’m now trying to avoid unofficial spoilers like the plague, so I see these ‘official’ ones as a wee treat for good behaviour!
Welcome @idiotsavon !
2 May 2013 at 18:47 #76222 May 2013 at 18:53 #7623@bobbyfat – Spoilers######
I refer specifically to dwm pg 22 3rd paragraph (& the picture caption).
Keep away folks if you want to remain pure! I mean it!
2 May 2013 at 20:40 #7626Yes, the story motif is strong in the run. I think SMs run, when it is available to view in full retrospect, will be quite telling. It seems so far to be about the power of the story in the same way as Neil Gaiman’s “Sandman” series and @miapatrick s excellent “Neverending Story” analogy.
If you’ll indulge me, I think Series 5 was a clearly about one particular story – Doctor Who.
Amelia the child, after an encounter with the Doctor, grows up with an imaginary friend. I think most kids who grew up with the series may know the feeling! She makes her toys and dreams up marvellous adventures with the Doctor, as many of us did. Then one day, she puts away her toys and becomes an adult.
Then he comes back. He promises to cure her of being an adult (and I think many of us will recognise that feeling as well). The adventures continue until a problem – she finds herself in a universe without the Doctor. She remembers him and he comes back.
I think it’s a story about the power of the old series that nurtured people like Moffat, Davies, and everyone else who was into it at the time. Even when it went away, people still told the stories, in one form or another. Certain people went into TV and became writers, and when an opportunity to do something came back, they remembered.
The same thing is happening at the moment. New generations growing up with the Doctor, kids like Lindylee. If the show goes away again, you can guarantee that when this generation grows up they will remember – and remembering with love is what always saves The Doctor and brings him back.
2 May 2013 at 20:59 #7627@htpbdet – “You mean he is downloaded there to keep him out of the way or permanently?”
Well… it could be to keep him safe. Or to have his memories on store. Or, like the ganger Doctor, we end up with two Elevens, one virtual.
From the technical point of allowing the actor to reprise his role even while visibly older, a computer version of Eleven does have the advantage of being able to set his avatar at whatever age he feels like this morning (‘I got bored with looking about nine – thought I’d go for the more mature look’)
2 May 2013 at 21:15 #7631@idiotsavon Greetings!
“crimson eleven delight petrichor” can be rearranged to say “Doctor/River : Silence helping them”
Huh… I sometimes imagine Moffat has a little army of flying helper-monkeys just to assist with cramming multiple meanings and clues, red-herring and otherwise, into the scripts. He sprinkles them everywhere, like fairydust!
@phileasf and others, the storytelling theme is definitely a winner. Another quote, from Time of the Angels:
Doctor: “The Pandorica, that’s just a fairytale!”
River: “Aren’t we all Doctor, aren’t we all…”
There were some lovely discussions around the time of The Big Bang about Amy being from a mirror-universe where the Doctor was her storybook imaginary friend, but having stepped through the looking glass, like Alice, into “this” universe where her storybook was real, which I remember ruminating upon with @pedant among others.
Time to revive that one? It would explain why all the Pond women are “impossible” (Amy, River, Clara) because they are (River and Clara at least in part, being hybrids) from another universe “through the looking glass”…
2 May 2013 at 22:02 #7638@phaseshift – i find your analysis of series 5 compelling, and what i think is exciting is that i think its as much a subconscious thing as moff setting out to deliberately run that idea through the series, it just kind of seeps out. i think that when you are in the zone creatively, some kind of magic serendipity kicks in, such as the fantastic anagrams that have popped up today…
2 May 2013 at 22:33 #7640Still no word from our mighty keymaster @craig!? I hope he’s OK in that US of A. The last thing we need for international relations is an angry Ming The Merciless because he couldn’t get BBC America. 🙂
Many thanks – You are right in that there is a lot to pick over on these series. I hope he follows RTD and does a companion to “The Writers Tale” that outlines some of the issues he wanted to touch on. I think it would make a fascinating read.
Good night everyone.
2 May 2013 at 23:52 #7643@phaseshift. Yes, I think you are precisely correct in your succinct analysis of Smith’s first season. It is a personal journey for Amelia Pond, but one that reflects the lives of all who had “their Doctor” and want him back.
And, actually, I would argue that if you do not see that season in that light, it’s lustre is very hard to find.
It is interesting to contemplate how, if at all, that overall theme would have changed if it had served as the arc for Tennant’s final season, as originally imagined, rather than Smith’s first. The same but different I guess.
The second season, the Impossible Astronaut season, carried similar themes. The notion that someone was always trying to kill the Doctor, someone who really loved him but could not help themselves because of brainwashing; that at the same time there were pale imitations running around, possibly threatening his existence; that there were some who wanted you to simply forget you had ever seen him; but that, truthfully, the Doctor was cleverer than them all and could always find a way to survive.
Smith’s second season was about the damage and difficulty caused by some fans to the Doctor’s legacy and possibilities.
The first part of Smith’s third season did not seem to me to have an overall theme or underpinning notion. Except that it was about introducing Clara, Kate Stewart and UNIT (again) and farewelling the Ponds. If anything, it was the most reflective of Classic Who since Rose.
This second part, though, seems to be back into full Moffat mode: that the Doctor is the sum of the memories of everyone who has ever loved him and that, no matter what is thrown at him – multi-platforms, vampires(fans) trying to suck the life from him, old enemies ( budget cuts, censorship) – there is always the power of love, the family he has collected ( both companions and BBC Worldwide and fans) and the lives he has touched and changed forever (Emma in Hide and Tricky in Journey) to sustain him and keep him going. Even when the worst happens – when he is defeated/cancelled by a force that considers itself a greater Intelligence (Michael Grade?) – the power of the stories that combine to make him what he is will endure and ensure that he endures too. Storytelling will see him pulse with renewed vigour.
Even if some unsavoury things are revealed about his past or it turns out he is not everything he has said he was – too many people, now, have had the experience that Amelia Pond had: their lives have been altered by the Doctor and he will always endure, survive, return.
Of course – I am jumping the gun here: but it seems clear enough on what we have seen so far.
The Impossible Girl arc is really about how the Doctor will always be a part of our human culture – whether he is there or not. Because people will remember him, and from those memories, Phoenix-like ( that’s for you @juniperfish ), the Doctor will always be resurrected. The space, the void, his absence creates will allow his revival. It’s too late for his naysayers – the Doctor is now firmly a part of the Universe. – so you might as well enjoy it.
2 May 2013 at 23:58 #7644@bobbyfat. I think it is all entirely planned and deliberate with SM. He leaves little to chance.
3 May 2013 at 04:22 #7645I’ve been doing some research into the Doc:s age:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor%27s_age
From Doc 4 eps, it would appear he was 236 when he first left Gallifrey, although this has been both reinforced and contradicted by Doc 11 eps.
In fact Doc 11’s age is all over the place which may mean lots or little. Moffat’s stance appears to be that the Doc has no way of knowing his own age. Hmmm.
Interestingly Doc 7 was the same age as The Rani – could they be twins?
3 May 2013 at 08:42 #7651@whohar I had forgotten that Tomb of the Cybermen has Troughton saying that, in Earth years, he was about four hundred and fifty.
Romana 1 , when she talks about his age in Pirate Planet, says he has been operating the TARDIS for 523 years. I always thought that curious, because Romana was not stupid. Yet, when you are dealing with time travel, its a particularly stupid remark. She cannot really know how long he has been operating the TARDIS – all she can know is when he stole it and when she met him – and, presumably, anyway, she is talking in Gallifreyan years (it being implicit in Troughton’s statement that there is some other measure of time than Earth years). So, while it might seem he has lived 523 years in the TARDIS from the linear point of view on Gallifrey, actually he could have lived a million years in time and space away from Gallifrey’s timezone. How would Romana know?
Romana says he is 759 in Ribos Operation – so, at least in that period, from Romana’s point of view, he had been away from Gallifrey for 523 years, making him 236 when he stole the TARDIS. But all that has to be from the linear point of view on Gallifrey, in Gallifrey time (or, at least, non-Earth time).
I have always wondered, too, whether the Time Lords forcing a regeneration made the Doctor lose some life years. Who knows?
I think the only way you can make sense of the Doctor’s age is to accept whatever the Doctor says about it at any given time – because we are not always with him, we can’t keep track of his age. If Moffat’s stance is that the Doctor can’t keep track of his own age, well, that’s probably right – and exactly what Romana thought:
ROMANA: You’ve lost count somewhere. DOCTOR: Well, I ought to know my own age. ROMANA: Yes, but after the first few centuries, I expect things get a little bit foggy, don’t they.
3 May 2013 at 08:52 #7652I think all this discussion returns us to the S5 and 6 debates from the Gruaniad WAY back in the day.
Folklore (S5), Myths (S6) and Legends (S7)
Season 5 was a perfectly structured fairy tale, complete with wishing Tinkerbell back to life;
Season 6 was how the Doctor came to mean different things to different people and the trouble this could cause;
Season 7 are the camping tales of the wandering minstrel-shogun-Quatermass, the friends we have lost along the way and awaiting the final chapter of this instalment.
3 May 2013 at 09:23 #7653I was not meaning to debate anything ‘Phaseshift said – I agree with him.
As, indeed, I agree with your analysis – well, up to a point, anyway. 7.2 seems to be more than just about camping tales of the wandering minstrel-shogun-Quatermass.
To me anyway.
Different overviews or ways of looking at seasons can co-exist quite happily I think.
3 May 2013 at 10:37 #7654Anonymous @The pioneering time traveller trapped in a pocket universe in Hide — this is Omega’s story in a nutshell. Except he was in his for a very long time, not just a few minutes.
Although that depends on your point of view though, doesn’t it? I wonder in that throwaway plot point in Hide whether we have just seen the Doctor inadvertently bring Omega back? Probably not.
@phaseshift — nice summation of Series 5. It’s still by far my favourite series of Nu-Who…
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