S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

Home Forums Episodes The Eleventh Doctor S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

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  • #10085
    Anonymous @

    @davemorris316 – I see this as being behind the block that the Cyber Controller couldn’t reach.  Our Doctor has hidden the John Hurt character so carefully that even when in his timeline, Clara never saw him … but our Doctor still knows him.  Knows him from the future?  (because he’s in his own timeline)  Or, knows him from his own past?  I’d wager the latter, because when dealing with the Cyber Controller, 11 wouldn’t have known about his own future, but he would have known about his past and would have had ample time to contruct a solid wall in his mind against it.

    #10086
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @davemorris316

    Trenzalore, not Gallifrey…. unless the two are one and the same?….

    That’s what I wondered, a bit upboard, but I don’t know how to do a screen grab from iplayer to compare…

    HurtDr at the end – we are still inside the Dr’s timestream yes? (The comment about there’s only me (and why aren’t there loads of people and events crowded into his timestream?) ) Yet he appears to be looking out on the Trenzalore graveyard…

    (Re HurtDr – Eleven says “I said he was me. I didn’t say he was the Dr”)

    #10087
    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    @shazzbot I think he could have known about HurtDr from his future. He’s a time traveller, and knew Trenzalore was his grave, so he could well know about a future Doctors actions… maybe.

    What if he is trying to do good work now, in the knowledge that he will later commit atrocities? A pre-atonement?

     

    #10088
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish – your Osiris / Isis story could simply be our S Moffat* teasing the more intellectual amongst us {points finger at Jfish} with gorgeous harkenings back to human myths.  Certainly the ‘name as word of power which opens the door between life and death’, and Osiris being scattered about, memes are strong in this episode.

    Do you posit a parallel between the end of the Osiris / Isis myth and the plot of the 50th?

    *as I said before, is it ‘Stephen’ or ‘Steven’?  Tell me so I can stop this stupid and probably annoying tic.

    #10089
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @davemorris316 – no apology necessary!

    As to Trenzalore being Gallifrey – the Timelords do have form already with the ol’ “move a planet around and pretend it’s called something else” trick with Ravolox, so it’s a definite possibility at this stage!

    (Regarding Ravolox – why did the Timelords move it only 2 light years in 2 million years? By my estimate a planet orbiting our Galactic centre at roughly the same distance as Earth would travel more than 1000 light years anyway!)

    Regarding your second point above – I think that the Hurt Doctor’s part of the Doctor’s timestream is “locked” somehow, so that is why she  doesn’t have access to it. Also, because the Hurt Doctor “broke the promise”, he is not one of the “Doctors” – he didn’t deserve the title.

    #10090
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – I simply do Alt+PrtScr and paste into Paint.  (which is how I stole your fezzes, mwahahaha!)

    #10091
    Anonymous @

    Yes, I think that @Shazzbot has got it right there. Clara didn’t see Hurt’s Doc because the Doctor had put him behind a mental block because he didn’t consider himself to be a true Doctor. He’s part of the timeline but one that has been mentally annexed by the Doctor, so Clara never sees it. And maybe she doesn’t see any of the Time War at all if it takes places outside of Time in some way. Incidentally, do we ever know at any point if Eccleston actually took part in the Time War itself? He’s described as being born in battle but could it be that his regeneration was caused by the climactic ending of the war, that it’s all over at the start of his incarnation?

    It would indeed by great if we see some of the Time War but that’s a budget biggie, I would have thought. Mind you, if you’re going for 3D then you have to make it worth it. There’s not much point just having it being a Zygon pointing at you and the Doc’s sonic coming out of the screen. The Time War, if even only in flashback, which is what I imagine they would go for, is the perfect forum for it.

    Echoing some of the stuff said above, I suspect that the anniversary episode will see the Hurt Doctor rehabilitated or redeemed in some way, rather than him being some unrepentant evil that has to be fought to the death. By the end of the episode, I expect that he’ll be redeemed and will have earned his place as a ‘proper Doctor’.

    #10092
    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish“Yes, I think that Shazzbot has got it right there.”

    {faints dead away}
    {picks oneself up off the floor}
    {punches fist in the air: ‘Oh my dear giddy aunt, did I get something right for once?!’}

    “The Time War, if even only in flashback, which is what I imagine they would go for, is the perfect forum for it [3D].”

    Personally, as a post-2005 viewer, I really want to see the Time War, and I want to see how Ecclestone’s Doctor came to be.  Is this why Billie Piper is in the 50th?  All for the pre-2005 viewers, having the Time War depicted will cover that awful gap, provide the bridge between the ‘old’ and the ‘new’, and certainly do what The Moff* promised about having an anniversary special which is mind-blowing, and looks back to the past and forward to the future.

    * @scaryb – see, I can be all post-modern too!  (but dammit, is it ‘Stephen’ or ‘Steven’?  Somebody help me here!

    #10093
    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish“the anniversary episode will see the Hurt Doctor rehabilitated or redeemed in some way, rather than him being some unrepentant evil that has to be fought to the death.”

    Or absorbed into the Doctor’s true timestream?

    I agree with not having the Doctor fight himself to the death.  As a real, human analogy:  We don’t want to kill off our bad sides, the parts of our personality we’d rather hide from everyone but which make us the total person we are; certainly we’d rather incorporate that – because at least some of our ‘bad side’ is certainly redeemable, and certainly worth keeping if only in a more positive form?! – into our whole personality.

    #10094
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @Shazzbot

    Your Osiris / Isis story could simply be our S Moffat* teasing the more intellectual amongst us {points finger at Jfish} with gorgeous harkenings back to human myths. Certainly the ‘name as word of power which opens the door between life and death’, and Osiris being scattered about, memes are strong in this episode.

    Do you posit a parallel between the end of the Osiris / Isis myth and the plot of the 50th?

    Moff is not teasing in some kind of empty way, I think, but drawing on cultural resources available to him to tell a story, and yes, playing a game of mutual enjoyment by sticking markers / signposts to his resources in there (all the Egyptology, pyramids etc.) for those readers who want to play.

    It’s done so you don’t have to know about Osiris/ Isis to understand that this is a story about death and rebirth, it’s just added fun if you do!

    Well if the Osiris/ Isis parallels continue, then we can expect a child – because when Isis resurrected Osiris she conceived Horus.

    So yes, I’ll go out on a limb with my mythological markers and say that seeing the Doctor’s cot again was a fore-shadowing and we will encounter the Doctor’s progeny at the 50th…

    To the Doctor, a daughter…

    #10095
    MTGradwell @mtgradwell

    @shazzbot:

    This is why I [sadly] suspect we’ve seen the last of River.  She knows that from now on, all she will have are the dreams of her Doctor, and no more adventures.

    From River’s perspective, i.e. the River in the Library, you are right. This was her goodbye to the Doctor. “From now on, all she will have are the dreams of her Doctor, and no more adventures”. Yes. And it’s good that she gets a parting kiss with a version of the Doctor who understands what that means, rather than her previous parting kiss with a Doctor who didn’t know her at all. But we are not shown her timeline. We are shown the Doctor’s. He’s seen her beginning and her ending, but there’s a lot in between that he hasn’t seen yet, or if he has then we haven’t been shown it.

    When does River get to know the Doctor’s name? When does she learn the significance of it, and how important it is to keep it secret? How does she nonetheless know that it’s OK to speak it out loud when the Doctor’s companions are being killed?

    Presumably she knows something even we don’t know for sure yet, that the Doctor will escape from Trenzalore relatively unscathed. The most natural explanation for that is that she does meet him again, earlier in her timeline but later in his. What is meant by her final “spoilers”? And will she be grandmother to the Doctor’s granddaughter? There’s so much that is still unrevealed.

    #10096
    BadWulf @badwulf

    OK, new off-the-wall theory about who the Hurt Doctor is, and whether we have seen him before:

    Maybe he is the War Chief?

    Perhaps his crime was to travel throughout time and space building and training an army to participate in the Time War. When the Troughton Doctor sees him and recognises it as himself, he call on the timelords to help out, because he knows that he cannot defeat a future incarnation of himself without aid.

    When forcing Troughton Doctor’s regeneration, the Time Lords lock knowledge of his future as the War Chief  – they cannot execute him, because that would cause a paradox – and exile him to Earth.

    The timelords then heal the HurtDoctor/WarChief of his injuries, and tell him to continue his work, this time under their supervision. He does so, and builds an invincible army to enable the timelords to win the Time War, but at the last moment, he decides that he cannot hand unchallenged power to the timelords, and destroys all participants in the war, creating the timelock so that he can escape, and stealing the Eye of Harmony to prevent the timelords escaping. In doing so, he is critically injured, and regenerates into EcclestoneDoctor.

    My main evidence in support of this is that both Hurt Doctor and War Chief have facial hair. I think it’s pretty watertight…

     

    #10097
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @jimthefish

    Echoing some of the stuff said above, I suspect that the anniversary episode will see the Hurt Doctor rehabilitated or redeemed in some way, rather than him being some unrepentant evil that has to be fought to the death By the end of the episode, I expect that he’ll be redeemed and will have earned his place as a ‘proper Doctor’.

    Physician heal thyself? (Hopefully got the hang of quoting now or above will look wonky) Like the idea anyway!

    @Shazzbot It’s Steven.

    #10098
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot Steven with a v if you can trust wikipedia

    Agree HurtDr could’ve been behind the mental block (go Shazzbot, LOL – that’s my thinking Fez wot done that 🙂 )

    But why no sign of future incarnations? Why does Clara confirm they stop at 11? (and thanks for the instructions – will have a shot. Prob nothing in it, but I’m intrigued now!)

    @jimthefish – given that the 50th is supposed to be cinema release also, big budget could be there… you would hope! And if  HurtDr is rehablitated – where does that leave us on regens?  And how are we ever going to work out who to call Who if 10 becomes 11, 11 becomes 12…. ?! 😉

    #10099
    Anonymous @

    @mtgradwell“She knows many things, including much that the Doctor doesn’t know.”

    You ask questions yourself about River (“When does River get to know the Doctor’s name? When does she learn the significance of it, and how important it is to keep it secret? How does she nonetheless know that it’s OK to speak it out loud when the Doctor’s companions are being killed?”).

    Are we ever to learn, as viewers, how River comes to know all of this?  As per this episode, the Doctor says ‘River would know … River always knows.’

    Is this a reference to the river of time theory?*

    *Michio Kaku:

     

    In Einstein’s equation, time is a river. It speeds up, meanders, and slows down. The new wrinkle, is that it can have whirlpools and fork into two rivers. So, if the river of time can be bent into a pretzel, create whirlpools and fork into two rivers, then time travel cannot be ruled out.”

    #10100
    ScaryB @scaryb

    LOL @badwulf re facial hair. It’s as persuasive as anything else. But just to throw something else into your mix – the Master also had facial hair…!

    #10101
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot

    When does River get to know the Doctor’s name? When does she learn the significance of it, and how important it is to keep it secret?

    It’s extremely important – it’s his password! Probably uses the same one for his bank accounts and emails 😉

     

    PS re “So, if the river of time can be bent into a pretzel,…” Pretzel shape and texture is much like my brain at the moment!! 😯

    #10102
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @Shazzbot

    Are we ever to learn, as viewers, how River comes to know all of this?  As per this episode, the Doctor says ‘River would know … River always knows.’

    This could mean River is Clara or that her link with the TARDIS allows her to know relevant stuff.

    #10103
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @scaryb

    LOL @badwulf re facial hair. It’s as persuasive as anything else. But just to throw something else into your mix – the Master also had facial hair…!

    Precisely…! Evidence of a conspiracy of epic proportions here. Borusa mentions the Master’s parasitic existence of unconventional regenerations –  a technique that the Master learned when absorbing River Song’s back when he was the Doctor!

    Facial hair *is* crucial!

    #10104
    confuseus @confuseus

    @davemorris316

    What if the thing he has done is not the Time War. Worse than that, he has at some point made the decision to make himself immortal?

    The old limit of 12 regenerations has been shown to no longer exist (there’s an article on The G which refers to this), but what if he had to kill to do this?

    Worse than the time war, he has stolen all the regenerative power of his fellow timelords to make himself immortal?

    Bad, Bad Doctor

    #10105
    Anonymous @

    @mtgradwell, @scaryb, @satsumajoe – I really like Michio Kaku’s summarisation of Einstein’s theory re time travel.  It reminds me of Madeleine L’Engle’s ‘A Wrinkle in Time’ books:  A ‘tesseract’ is described by way of folding up a skirt with one’s fingers, to show how one can move from one time to another with practically no time at all occurring in the interim.  (if misty memory serves, an ant walks across the skirt folds)

    #10106
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @Shazzbot D’ya know, I’ve heard of another analogy (which I can’t remember) and a tesseract but never in the same sentence!

    I can see a few parallels between that story and the show.

    #10107
    thommck @thommck

    Wow, this forum is moving fast! I’ll never be a Clever Boy and remember all this!

     

    Quick thanks to @mtgradwell for giving some good solutions to my earlier questions.

     

    @Shazzbot, don’t think I have the time to research ClaraPrime vs ClaraTime now but who knows what will happen when I get my hands on the 7.2 blu-ray! In an ideal world I’d also have time to map out River’s timeline, compile every reference to the Silence and do a blog on all the loose threads! (Spoiler alert – never going to happen!)

     

    There’s been some great talk of those final minutes so I wanted to think out loud and see if anything sticks

     

    At the end, is ClaraPrime inside the timeline or has she come out at a certain point?

     

    She seems to be IN Trenzalore with 11 and Hurt, rather than looking at it, and Hurt talks to them. So is she physically somewhere or floating in some time vortex thingy (where presumably you shouldn’t be able to stop and have a chat? So is Hurt a physical presence that could jump out of the timeline?

     

    She is meant to be in his timeline, not his mind/memories. The Time War is “outside time” which sadly makes me think it won’t feature (I blame this all on Ecclestone stubborness as an actor).

     

    Bonkers theory #1231332…lost count – We always go on about the Doctor’s Daughter but what if Hurt is the Doctor’s Son from Gallifrey! Trying to live up to his Dad’s name but failing

    #10108
    Anonymous @

    @Shazzbot — god call on Kaku. One of my favourite pop science writers…

    #10109

    @juniperfish

    Well if the Osiris/ Isis parallels continue, then we can expect a child – because when Isis resurrected Osiris she conceived Horus.

    And Doc and River begat Clara who begat Susan….

    Remember who very good River is at not letting people know what their true relationship is…

    #10110
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant

    Yes! You’re right, and River explicitly told the Doc “spoilers” regarding her link with Clara before that hearbreaking “Goodbye Sweetie”.

    Only trouble is, Clara seems to be assuming the Doctor is kind of her boyfriend at the moment. She certainly doesn’t correct her young charges when they refer to the Doc that way…

    Yes @scaryb you can “ship” relationships which are textual rather than subtextual, particularly where there are “options”, so some folk “ship” Doctor / Rose and some “ship” Doctor/ River.

    However, fandom language is fluid and ever-evolving so some people do use “shipping” for non-canon relationships only.

    And I guess, if you’re a member of the Asexual Doctor Preservation Society (no disrespect to asexuality btw) then neither Rose/ Doctor nor River/ Doctor are sexual relationships and therefore they cannot be “shipped” in a sexual romantic way (although they can of course be shipped in a non-sexual romantic way).

    If a River-Doctor child does emerge canon is settled on that one!

     

    #10111
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    Does anyone agree that Clara cannot be just a normal girl? Even Clara prime? There has to be more to her. Here is the thing the way Clara has always been there to save the doctor could he see her all the time? If not she must be like some sort of god or guardian angel to him because she has always been there….interesting

    And I cannot wait to see evil doctor and how the 50th will start

    #10112
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    #10113

    @juniperfish

    Only trouble is, Clara seems to be assuming the Doctor is kind of her boyfriend at the moment.

    Well, to be fair, she is operating with imperfect information. After all, Amy made a confused pass at the Doctor.

    Still plenty of room for begating.

    But shipping is still evil.

    #10114
    Anonymous @

    @Tennantmarsters2013 – “evil doctor’ ??  My theory (so far;  subject to change, no refunds  🙂 ) is “the parts of our personality we’d rather hide from everyone but which make us the total person we are”

    At this point in time, I prefer to think of him as ‘Misunderstood Doctor’.  MisDoctor for short.  😀

    #10115

    Awesome work from LindaLee there!

    #10116
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

     knows him from his own past?  I’d wager the latter

    So would I, because back in Amy’s Choice we saw the Dream Lord – a manifestation of the Dark Doctor. To date, everything that Leadworth – sorry, Upper Leadworth – dream predicted has come true.

    John Hurt’s Dark Doctor is so tightly locked away in the Doctor’s head, he can only come out in dreams. Or when part of his brain has been taken over by something like the Cyberplanner?

    #10117
    Anonymous @

    @Arkleseizure – your ox-bow lakes comment prompted my comment below;  so, a belated ‘thank-you’ for skrrtching** my memory:

    [re River Song knowing everything]  Is this a reference to the river of time theory?

    Michio Kaku:

    In Einstein’s equation, time is a river. It speeds up, meanders, and slows down. The new wrinkle, is that it can have whirlpools and fork into two rivers. So, if the river of time can be bent into a pretzel, create whirlpools and fork into two rivers, then time travel cannot be ruled out.”

    **skrrtching – a word I have always hoped would net me maximum points in online Boggle.

    #10118
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Only trouble is, Clara seems to be assuming the Doctor is kind of her boyfriend at the moment.

    @juniperfish – well, putting it with my ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theory, when you’re between relationships (which both Clara and the Doctor are), you do tend to end up spending … err… rather a lot of, shall we say, quality time with yourself. 😳

    I’d get me coat, except that the evidence is that this is precisely the sort of joke Steven Moffat’s evil mind would enjoy. 🙂

    #10119
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip“John Hurt’s Dark Doctor is so tightly locked away in the Doctor’s head, he can only come out in dreams. Or when part of his brain has been taken over by something like the Cyberplanner?”

    Do you see John Hurt’s ‘non-Doctor’ incarnation doing all that lascivious stuff in NiS?  (the things the Doctor could never say … oooh er Miss!)

    I thought the Hurt Doctor was hidden from the Cyber Planner in that 2.x% of the Doctor’s brain that it couldn’t reach.  But as I’ve said before, I’m rubbish at theories and live on this forum only to feed on your own theories!  (me, I’m a vampirish being of my own:  I’m not sucking out your regenerations, though;  I’m sitting here on the dusty floor of Trenzalore, siphoning off energy from your magnificent theories whilst viewing the the frankly desolate horizons of Dead Gallilfrey … erm, Trenzalore … erm, was that a cuppa being offered?  😉  )

    #10120
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip

    To date, everything that Leadworth – sorry, Upper Leadworth – dream predicted has come true

    Yes, yes it has and I shall now, for the sheer glory of it, bring back my “Amy’s Choice is pivotal” red / blue “dark doppleganger Doctor is coming” post from four weeks ago 🙂

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/s33-7-10-hide/page/3/#post-6325

    Yes you’re right, we’ve already had a sonic-screwdriver erection gag (which fits in with the magic penis of Osiris, as we said, haha Moff) and the Doc is narcissitic enough to find himself extremely hot. Plus all the mirror symbolism (falling in love with one’s own reflection)…

    I don’t know which theory I prefer:

    Clara as River/ Doctor  progeny (“I was born to save the Doctor”)

    Clara as River/ TARDIS progeny (“I was born to save the Doctor”)

    Clara as future-Doctor (“I was born to save the Doctor”)

    Looking forward to finding out.

    Still predicting that, one way or another, there will be children for / from that Gallifreyan cot.

     

    #10121
    Anonymous @

    @pedant , @wolfweed – I loved the first LindaLee reviews that @wolfweed posted here, but they have been steadily making me more uncomfortable over the last few weeks.  This one seemed to have more edits than ever before.  (That’s probably just my feeling, and I’m more than happy to be proved wrong.)  What is going on behind the scenes, between those edits, those repeated get-up-get-out-sit-back-down-again moments?  Surely as she grows older, she’s more capable of sitting still for longer?

    Earlier reviews I saw seemed to be more her own, very-young-child opinion (albeit always heavily scripted).  This one doesn’t seem to contain anything a young viewer would actually say about what was going on, other than that the Whispermen frightened her.   Who was it on this site who said her parents are in the media distribution game (I might have got that wrong) ?

    #10122
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @juniperfish

    To the Doctor, a daughter…

    @pedant

    And Doc and River begat Clara who begat Susan….

    And how long have I been banging on with that theory? Good to see Enthusiasts of the Fish and anti-Fish variety finally coming on board.

     

    #10123
    Flutterwing @flutterwing

    Are we ever to learn, as viewers, how River comes to know all of this?  As per this episode, the Doctor says ‘River would know … River always knows.’

    Maybe I’ve gotten confused but perhaps he’s just refering to the fact River has spoilers, being as a majority of her temporal travels are in the ‘opposite’ direction?

     

    A quick theory I thought I throw into the aether: Everyone is wondering if the ‘goodbye sweetie’ is permanent…

    The Timelord afterlife is being saved to The Matrix/APC Net
    River is a TimeLord, without access to The Matrix he stored her in the library.
    The Matrix isn’t a permanent as you’d think… Rassilon anyone?

    #10124

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    You aren’t the only one (I had Susan as plan b, but it always seemed evident to me that the 50 year gap is between Hartnell and his granddaughter)

    #10125
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @satsumajoe

    I suppose that makes sense in a logical sort of way but for a person who can visit the site of their own death etc, it’s entirely possible to break a promise you’ve not yet made. I think.

    There might be a very questionable argument there. My poor theory!

    No. I agree with you. You have convinced me that one should not doubt (or allow Fishes to encourage you to doubt!) one’s first instincts.

    #10126

    @Shazzbot

    This one seemed to have more edits than ever before.  (That’s probably just my feeling, and I’m more than happy to be proved wrong.)  What is going on behind the scenes, between those edits, those repeated get-up-get-out-sit-back-down-again moments?  Surely as she grows older, she’s more capable of sitting still for longer?

    I think it is more a case of her parents protecting her from the more adult oriented stuff – and maybe that she didn’t fully grasp the Hartnell scene significance (which to us, of course, is a complete fangasm, but to even enlightened Americans might not see quite so obviously much)

    #10127
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @pedant

    Ah, but that was only plan B!

    Who knows, I might even be able to revive the Kennedy theory! (although against increasingly long odds, I admit)

    #10128
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @shazzbot

    Well, you perhaps have defined the entire post-2005 series’s Doctors.  They are continually trying to remake that promise, leading to 10′s ‘I can change time to save people’ megalomania in the sincere attempt to regain the name of ‘The Doctor’ as a force for good.  And to 11′s horror at being known as a force for evil, followed by his retreat from (but then re-entry to) doing good where he thinks he can.

    Thanks!  Very pleased with the idea that little old me could possibly sum up the post 2005 docs in one sentence 🙂  [OsakaHatter bathes in warm smug glow]

    The reason I love this show (and this forum!) is that we can all take similar ideas and see such different potentials in them.  You see the Doctors compensating for their past, I see them fearing what they know they are becoming (and trying to preemptively compensate).

    Dunno why I’m so keen on the idea of the Hurt Doctor being a future version of the Doctor, just the feeling that other anniversaries have seen multi-Doctor stories, but always with the current doctor being the latest incarnation, so inverting whats been done before seems like a new twist.  The idea of that future doctor going back and ending the time war while saving himself just seems like the kind of time loop that Moffat has been playing with throughout his showrunning tenure.

    However, I was also thinking about ClaraPrime surviving inside the timeline.  I’m beginning to swing behind the Clara as future Doctor theory – thinking that she needs to be to survive, and she only saw 11 Doctors because his time after 11 was in flux from the moment she jumped in (or couldn’t recognise/protect herself).  Perhaps both Clara and the Hurt Doctor are potential future doctors, dark and light, but the Doctor having a low opinion of himself only recognises the dark.

    Or, to use @ardaraith ‘s rather lovely suggestion that they manage to change the ending of the Time War, with healing rather than violence (and still trying to shoe horn my Doctor 12 theory in!) perhaps the Hurt Doctor is the future doctor who ended the time war in the current pass of the time loop I’m suggesting, but Clara takes his place and ends the war more gently, changing history and becoming Doctor 12 in the process – the audience then naturally accept a female doctor because she’s presented as the ‘good’ option.

    I’m also still highly suspicious of the ‘Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor’ panel at the end.  In fact, I’d buy him more as the Doctor (at any point in his history) if it hadn’t said that.  It feels like misdirection.  Particularly given the mischievous nature of Mr Moffat!

    #10129
    MTGradwell @mtgradwell

    But she also says (at the end) – just after they’ve found HurtDr – “But I saw all of you… 11 faces, all of them you, you’re the eleventh Dr”

    He doesn’t disagree with her. So given that his timestream was supposed to contain his future versions as well (he says so!), where does that leave us? Continuity error…?

    Maybe Clara sensed that it would be too dangerous to look ahead, so she voluntarily confined herself to looking at 11th and preceding Doctors. She didn’t bother to mention that she had deliberately avoided looking at future Doctors, because that would go without saying. By entering the Doctor’s timestream they are already doing the most dangerous thing any time traveller could conceivably do, and looking ahead in it would only make things even worse.

    Or maybe it was a continuity error.

    #10130
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Here’s one I made earlier. It’s Clara whispering to the Doctor not to read ‘Peter Rabbit’ to K-9.

    comp

    #10131
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed – link please?

    @scaryb“I think your dog suits the fez down to the ground”  I think it makes her look like she and her brother are doing a canine version of ‘Puttin’ on the Ritz’ but thank you anyway!  (can’t you just imagine them in polished spats, holding their white-tipped canes horizontally a wee bit out of camera range?  🙂 )

    #10132
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    clara 2

    @Shazzbot – For links: Right click, select Copy image URL, then r-click & paste in address bar (should work).

    #10133
    Lula @lula

    My eleven year old just turned on the episode a few minutes ago–the very first thing said in TNotD is, “It’s the repair shop…what kind of idiot would try and steal a faulty Tardis?” and then we see the Doctor and Susan, before Clara interrupts.

    From An Unearthly Child:

    Susan:  The Tardis can go anywhere. 

    Barbara:  Tardis?  I don’t understand you, Susan.

    Susan:  Well, I made up the name TARDIS from the initials: Time And Relative Dimension In Space. I had thought you’d both understand when you saw the different dimensions inside from those outside.

     

    Continuity error?  Timey-wimey?   I’m not nit-picking, but Susan coining the acronym is canon, so…

    #10136
    brotherjohn @brotherjohn

    @lula

    Continuity error?  Timey-wimey?   I’m not nit-picking, but Susan coining the acronym is canon, so…

    Well, if we start looking for continuity errors like that, we’d probably find thousands.  Admittedly, that’s kind of a big scene.  But it IS a 50-year-old show, with a LOT of canon.

    But I’ll play:  maybe she coined the term before leaving Gallifrey, and it “caught on”?

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