@thane15

Puro

I absolutely agree the time wipe, as it was shown, was very well delivered as well as perhaps the only way out of that position once Moff took the decision to not return Clara to the dead. The question is whether that choice of Moff’s was the right one for the Doctor or not ? That’s one reason why I’d be interested to know…[Read more]

@thane15

Puro

I used the definition, as it was quicker and simpler than writing my own. I was trying to explain why I chose to use Cowardice rather than just selfish.  I may have mis-written but I didn’t intend to suggest that the Doctor, at that moment, is anything but acting out moral cowardice. The moral thing to do, was to return Clara to…[Read more]

@missrori and others

Yes Hell Bound and Heaven Sent were powerful TV. What each of us find to be the most satisfying narrative is always our own preference. None of us are right or wrong in our views on this. Exploring the difference is what is interesting and educational. 🙂

@thane15 @missrori (Puro)

Contrast Moral courage (wiki definition) :

Moral courage

is the courage to take action for moral reasons despite the risk of adverse consequences. Courage is required to take action when one has doubts or fears about the consequences. Moral courage therefore involves deliberation or careful thought. Reflex action or…[Read more]

@Thane15

So far as I recall heaven sent, the Doctor tried to get as far away from the Time Lords as possible, as he expected Clara to come back to life. She didn’t. She’s still dead, but is animated in that momentary instant between the point of death (the shade reaching her) and her death itself.

In horror we have zombies, living dead,…[Read more]

@thane15

I dunno, I saw it as something real and genuine.

Thane

It’s a matter of emphasis, rather than what was on the screen, if that makes sense. I’m not trying lump companions into boxes. But neither am i trying to make Clara exceptional, that stands out from the rest.

From my perspective, The Doctor grieves each Companion, when they move…[Read more]

@missrori

Thanks for your thoughts as ever. I think this raises four questions for me.

1. Has Moff actually said anything about what he intended the Clara story lines mean ? If so I’d be interested in reading his thoughts, even oblique ones.

2. Are we meant to believe that because Clara was the Impossible Girl, her relationship with the Doctor…[Read more]

@ichabod

Or is it something else about Hell Bent that could be considered cowardly, that I’m missing?

It’s his ultimate refusal to face the fact that he can not save Clara from Death that is cowardly and selfish (although other descriptions apply equally well). He had the chance to say a final goodbye and find the beginnings of an emotional c…[Read more]

@thane15

Thane

For what it’s worth discussing things like cowardice and depression stems from such excellent episodes, meaty episodes, where Moffat like Whedon face an issue head on with less trite ideas, less cliché and action right on the screen mixed with little dialogue so every single word counts.

All very correct. I find discussing so…[Read more]

@thane15

Puro, Thane

Are you saying this action was cowardly? I find that difficult to entertain, imho…..where, once again, the ‘why’ was of penetrating significance to this twin episode of ‘Hell Sent.’

Yes. Cowardly, selfish, there are a number of words that seem appropriate to me.

The Doctor walks in time. He is old, very old. Everyon…[Read more]

@ichabod

Agreed; but it *also* means sometimes giving up, stepping back, “Why can’t I just lose?! . . . You still won’t be there .”  I see it from maybe a reverse viewpoint: I see the person who carries the title The Doctor having to learn that lesson of ultimate acceptance over and over again, because “never give up” is directly opposed to “…[Read more]

@ichabod

What is being Doctorish ? Each regeneration is different. In this particular place, (at the end of Heaven Sent) then No not in my opinion. Is Clara more important to him than River ? More important than Rose. River died. He knew how, where and when before he even knew who she was and what she was going to mean to him. What was Rose to D8…[Read more]

@pedant

Thanks. I understand you much better now.

@mirime

Thanks for the clarification.

@pedant

No I haven’t – other things yes.

I can understand why you think the Doctor is depressed (I’m assuming you essentially mean clinically depressed). The Doctor has spent a billion (or several) years in a ground hog day loop, breaking through to the Time Lords. Hell Bent suggests each time is the first time for the Doctor, although its…[Read more]

@mirime

In Hell Bent, was the first version we saw, the very first time. He left himself clues to speed up the process of getting to the barrier. Whatever memory he has, must be limited. Less than all, or the episode is a lie.

In any case, I’m not sure that it changes my overall idea, or even that @pedant ‘s argument does. Pedant’s suggestion…[Read more]

@missrori

I thought it was your idea, but I want 100 % sure !

I don’t think you can necessarily take the title too literally with Moff. I suppose, at the core, I’m suggesting that the undoctorishness is growing and will somehow reach a peak. The Doctor may make the wrong choice, or be faced with a no-win situation. I dont know and cant guess…[Read more]

@pedant

I agree, you can argue that the billion years, spent being tortured might have changed things, but then each Doctor in the Hell Bent castle has no memory of the previous Doctor. He has to work it out from first principles and then spent whatever time left clawing at the wall. Surely the impact can only be intellectual and not physical as…[Read more]

@bluesqueakpip @missrori

Missy in the vault is a massive problem for the Doctor forsure. He chose, he took responsibility (physical and moral) for Missy when he refused to execute her and took her at face value and exiled her to the vault. She may escape, but the responsibility can only be his if he chooses to let her go. Whilst she has free…[Read more]

@missrori

What I love most is that we all have different takes. I thought the Doctor was undoctorish in the way that he “saved” Clara. It was cowardly. As the Doctor, he can try everything and anything to save someone, and if he fails, he can suffer, but also know that there was nothing else he could do or would do differently. Clara acted nobly…[Read more]