Empress of Mars

[Nick @nick]

@ichabod

Or is it something else about Hell Bent that could be considered cowardly, that I’m missing?

It’s his ultimate refusal to face the fact that he can not save Clara from Death that is cowardly and selfish (although other descriptions apply equally well). He had the chance to say a final goodbye and find the beginnings of an emotional closure (an overused word) to companion Clara. But he fails that test and runs from the best answer, which would be to stop and return Clara to her grave.

Contrast with River. He goes to Della for the final dinner, knowing that it is the last time they’ll meet in life (although that is a choice of Moffs) and that she will soon die. Afterwards (as we saw at Missy’s execution) he is grief stricken, in despair, depressed. But they have said their final goodbyes (River knows that she is going to face her death). He can recover, eventually.

[soundworld @soundworld]

@ichabod @thane15 @nick and many others

Thank you all so much for the discussion above, with such insight and far better ways of expressing it than I could ever hope to achieve – one reason why I’m so quiet on the forum!

Regarding the 4.5 billion years in The Castle (and yes, I tend to agree the time period was overplayed), looking at it purely physically there is no way the Doctor would remember each go around the loop – each time he was freshly ‘created’ out of the teleporter, left clues for himself, worked t out, and chipped another bit of ice-brick off the wall.

However, I tend to view the Doctor in a Buddhist light, as a Tulku, one who is reborn with full knowledge and awareness of who he is – this applies to his regenerations, which could be viewed as an in-situ rebirth.  This knowledge still wouldn’t apply to the events in The Castle.  However, many traditions also have some form of record of the events of a person’s life, and an extra-dimensional place where these are stored and available, whether for judgement or for self-learning.  The Doctor clearly inhabits a world where psychic reality is fully accepted and part of being a TimeLord (psychic paper, sonic glasses psychically wired to his brain).  In such a reality I have no doubt he would be able to link directly into the ‘hall of records’ and access the full horror of what he went through.

Ichabod, I agree with you that everything can be Doctorish and alien, but I’m also sympathetic with Nick’s view that ‘there be something strange in the woodshed’.

He will heal himself – its the nature of the Doctor.  Perhaps @missrori by realising self-acceptance – maybe through the actions of his friends.  It certainly will involve his regeneration, perhaps finally triggered as he accepts the situation, accepts himself.

Puro/Thane – I love the idea of the DinerTardis as therapy; however – what if its just ‘see the wonders of the Universe for less than 30 Altairian dollars a day!?’  A place to travel and have fun, without worrying about being Doctorish all the time.  Ha – that would be therapy indeed, I could do with some of that!

[soundworld @soundworld]

@thane15

The Doctor himself has come to a  point, a point where he has been re-visiting the last 4 years:

what is my doctor?

All of the words we hear, the scenes we see mixed in with our  personal likes of either Pertwee, Tom Baker, Tennant or Mat Smith, the Doctor himself is asking that same question.

In other words “Who (haha) am I?” The same question we all ask ourselves in life.  How do we define ourselves, how do we find and express our innermost nature.

[MissRori @missrori]

@nick wrote:

He had the chance to say a final goodbye and find the beginnings of an emotional closure (an overused word) to companion Clara. But he fails that test and runs from the best answer, which would be to stop and return Clara to her grave.

I myself thought the story would have had a better ending had they just gone back to Gallifrey, but over at TVTropes, where I broached this idea, someone responded very thoughtfully with this explanation with why they didn’t:  Basically, the Doctor was never going to be able to move on from Clara and just take her back himself.  He was too broken to choose the best answer; it was no longer an option for him.  And he can’t fail a test if he’s not equipped to take it anymore.

This makes sense.  Back in “The Girl Who Died”, he’d said that when she was gone he would run and run but never be able to forget her.  And that was before she not only died unjustly, but he was imprisoned, isolated, and tortured and unable to have any hope of processing his grief in a healthy manner.  He was driven insane — and no one in the universe could hope to mend his mind, certainly no one on Gallifrey.  And even if he’d had the strength to just take her back, and assuming he didn’t just start thinking of other ways to bring her around that didn’t risk the universe…he’d be traveling around the universe a sick, unstable man forevermore.  Because no one would be able to live up to Clara — not only for who she was but what she accomplished — he’d probably never take on companions again.  He wouldn’t want to help others anymore, because look what happened because he helped Ashildr and her people, he lost the love of his lives!  He’d become little better than Missy, and possibly worse.

So the only hope he had to actually move on, and be a Doctor again, was not so much to give Clara back to the grave, but <i>for one of them to no longer love and cherish the other.</i>  It was the only way to make a clean break — if one means little to the other, why should the other fuss over them?

Given that Clara and the audience only have the Doctor’s word to go on that he doesn’t know what will happen when the neural block is activated, it’s possible that he deliberately mind-wiped himself.  By losing all the memories of Clara that meant anything to him in terms of their personal relationship, as opposed to the adventures they had — her appearance, voice, affections, etc. — he would no longer be consumed by his now-toxic love for her and could be his best self again.  He could judge people on their own merits, rather than compare them to Clara (look at all the trouble Ten had for not getting over Rose…).

And Clara does intend to go back to her death, albeit the long way ’round; she’s the one strong enough to go back all along.  The Doctor knows and trusts that she will, which is why he gives her all that advice at the end.  She became more and more like him in the course of her travels, and he knew that she was better equipped, in that moment, to be him than he was able to be of late.  In his folly, she became a Doctor herself at last — near-immortality, companion, TARDIS and all.  Where he had to take a punishment for not accepting the end of their relationship, she ended up with a reward for accepting it.

So he basically lobotomizes himself, and no longer has the two-ton weight of Clara hanging upon his memory.  It’s not a perfect solution to his dilemma, and not the one I would have chosen…but it works well enough.

[Nick @nick]

@missrori

Thanks for your thoughts as ever. I think this raises four questions for me.

1. Has Moff actually said anything about what he intended the Clara story lines mean ? If so I’d be interested in reading his thoughts, even oblique ones.

2. Are we meant to believe that because Clara was the Impossible Girl, her relationship with the Doctor was deeper and more significant than with any other Companion and his second wife River (I assume there’s another relationship of similar importance if Susan is indeed his grand daughter).

If so, I didnt see it on the screen. That may be because I have such a negative view of the Impossible Girl element of series 7.

3. This explanation has some sense to it:

Basically, the Doctor was never going to be able to move on from Clara and just take her back himself.  He was too broken to choose the best answer; it was no longer an option for him.  And he can’t fail a test if he’s not equipped to take it anymore.

This makes sense.  Back in “The Girl Who Died”, he’d said that when she was gone he would run and run but never be able to forget her.  And that was before she not only died unjustly, but he was imprisoned, isolated, and tortured and unable to have any hope of processing his grief in a healthy manner.  He was driven insane — and no one in the universe could hope to mend his mind, certainly no one on Gallifrey.  And even if he’d had the strength to just take her back, and assuming he didn’t just start thinking of other ways to bring her around that didn’t risk the universe…he’d be traveling around the universe a sick, unstable man forevermore.

But I dont know if I can really buy into it. If I do, then I tend to and up in a position where I can only fundamentally question Moff’s ability and judgment as a writer and show runner. The proposition that you take your lead character, add a companion who seems little different from any previous one, in terms of depth of relationship, and then arrange a situation where you destroy your lead character so completely is a bold step for anyone.

However, for me, something so drastic demands something equally dramatic in terms of resolution. Clara’s wiping the Doctor’s memory of her (I agree its not entirely clear what that means in practice) is such a pat solution. I expect better than that from Moff.

However, I do think that it needs to be Clara’s choice to wipe the Doctor’s memory of her rather than the other way round or an accident. She is trying to save him from himself. This is the only way that I can see that resolution working narratively.

Back in “The Girl Who Died”, he’d said that when she was gone he would run and run but never be able to forget her.  And that was before she not only died unjustly

What made Clara’s death unjust for you ?

I thought it noble and within the bounds of her character. Her selflessness. Even if she made her decision based on a flawed understanding of the circumstances, I don’t think that changes the nature of her choice. Just as Bill made the wrong choice in the pyramid, it was still her choice to make. Of course, the Doctor being imprisoned, unable to save her (even by self-sacrifice) or even say goodbye was cruel and no doubt added significantly to his grief and rage.

4. Is Moff playing a long game ?

I’m sure Moff had a clear idea of when he wanted to leave Who. I had thought that the casting of Peter Capaldi changed his mind and extended his stay. Moff is talking to Chibnall about how he can ease the transition into the next Doctor and Chibnall’s hard reset (which I think is at the heart of season 10, even if some ideas preceded it).

It is probable that the two of them discussed and outlined D12’s characterisation and the overall narrative that they wanted to play out over  his regeneration. As Series 10 progresses, surely we are seeing their ideas come to their final dramatic conclusion. If this is right, then Heaven Sent is a (major) stepping stone in this direction.

Whilst it wasn’t inevitable that both would choose to leave together, but having agreed to a concept, there is a logic that having told the story they both wanted to, that they should end together.

[Anonymous @]

@nick @ichabod @soundworld @missrori

Nick,

I see. I get what you mean: I didn’t realise you meant selfish! Or cowardly and I must say that I cannot agree with you with regards to Clara. It upsets me I suppose: that a man, as @missy eloquently put it (and yes you DO add to the discussion. Always!) who has saved countless lives, should not let  Clara out: I think you said that Clara’s a “reanimated corpse, undead not living”. I should add that’s disturbing: and not set out in the story anywhere? She lives, moves, thinks, rationalises, processes and loves, profoundly, still.

Aw, you’re too hard a marker on this alien’s soul I think 🙂  But that’s OK.

You also say that they were robbed of a proper goodbye: but I think that the Doctor and Clara did have exactly that in the Raven. She was brave and wanted to do it alone. By bringing her back, he didn’t apologise for that, but for other things done: Lady Me (hence her in the Diner); shooting the General etc. He had as @missy said a duty of Care for Clara and felt he’d let her down via bathos: she’d become almost like the Doctor herself and that’s  not helpful and resulted in her Raven’s death.

Thinking he’s selfish is a bit odd, personally? He used the mind -wipe on himself redeeming any “love returned through life” regarding Clara. Now she was free to carry on seeing the universe, free from the people who, due to their close bond, could find Clara and hurt her in order to betray the Doctor?

It dishonours Clara’s actions in the Raven, it dishonours her memory and that of fevery other companion as well as that of his wife, River….The Doctor fell here, most certainly…

I can guess where you and I disagree is the “certainty” you have about his “fall” or what’s not doctorish or even what’s cowardly. How saving a young woman was selfish or wrong is difficult for me to understand because to me, I guess, I don’t say “the doctor, certainly was wrong”. I tend to say “maybe he could have done it differently?”  I don’t get how it dishonours River’s memory -he saved River, twice. Or more than that. He has saved Clara but the latter has saved him many times as the Impossible  Girl. So it’s in the giving away, in giving Clara back to the universe free of the Doctor and travelling with an equally strong individual, Lady Me, that he shows himself at his most unselfish.

Also if there’s a “justification” as you said can you then say “it’s not a valid one” ? Because what  you are saying is: “it’s unjustifiable”?

But absolutely @nick there is serious stuff happening: not checking on the colony in Smile or failing to help the kid ‘jars’ because as I said up-thread when juxtaposed with throwing the sonic at Davros feet, there’s a niggle of something’s rotten in the state of  Denmark……

And to what Missy said, which feels right:

The Doctor took a big risk plugging himself into the transmitter Monk, in fact it threw him off. Surely that would have affected his mind.  Add to that, the machine which restored his sight temporarily, was dangerous – he said it could fry his mind…The loss of River and Clara, the girl  he cannot remember…”

I think he can make mistakes, but I’m not sure he’s undoctorish (he’s it: the only one. So who gets to define his title?)

Maybe the Doctor not “only lies” but also “makes mistakes” -if that’s what they are. He’s not infallible. If he respects the Ice Warriors and attempts to help both sides, then we know the Doctor’s in “the house” just like when he brought Clara back in between ‘heart beats.’

Anyway, thank you for reading.

Thane

 

[Anonymous @]

@nick @missrori

sorry, I know you were talking to each other but if I may boldly step in?

“Clara’s wiping his memory is such a pat solution”  But why?

I expect better than that from Moff.

I dunno, I saw it as something real and genuine.

You saw Doc’s  misery? You saw him play his guitar and recall within a song is a story and you clearly saw his absolute grief. Also, she wasn’t “just” like any companion. I have a real personal issue with lumping ‘companions’ into one big box of people: as if not all are special. Look what happened to Eccleston’s doctor because of Rose, to Tennant because of Rose and to Smith’s doctor after Amy’s passing and the loss of his wife. He’d been travelling with Clara for ages,  and unlike other characters, she was a total enigma to him: she was his Impossible Girl and therefore his grief, virtually impossible also. But also completely authentic.

And he was depressed. He blamed himself for her death and so made amends. For this I can only conclude (but not with absolute certainty because =mind’s wide open 🙂  )  he’s  unselfish in that instance. As for the sonic and Thin Ice -somewhat different!…

Thane.

[MissRori @missrori]

@thane15  I think the idea of the Doctor being “cowardly” in “Hell Bent” is in the sense that he wasn’t brave enough to accept Clara’s death and facing the universe without her (“Look how far I went for fear of losing you”), but you’re right that it’s more selfish than cowardly.  When she finally got through to him that he wasn’t respecting her free will by trying to erase her memories of him so she could live a nice “safe” life, he realized that it was selfish of him to make her suffer any more than she already had just because he was unhappy.  And while he didn’t dishonor other companions, he didn’t honor her order to him not to lose sight of his best self.  On the other hand, she didn’t know what he was about to go through either.  It’s complex!

I had an interesting chat with a friend about his “Thin Ice” dilemma.  As she saw it, it was two bad choices he was facing and he had to think fast.  She happens to live in Minnesota, where incidents on icy water are common come winter.   “The force of pulling the boy up would have pulled them both down.”  (And this is before considering the boy is in fact being pulled downwards, and there’s barely a hole to pull him up through in the first place.)  If the Doctor ended up going under too, possibly drowning (the sort of death that can be fast enough to preclude regeneration, that actually happening in the alternate timeline of “Turn Left” to Ten) and/or freezing, what would Bill do then?   He is about the only person around equipped to figure out a situation this bizarre, and upon realizing that trying to save the boy had a too-slim chance of success, he winds up admitting defeat, going with the self-preservation option salvaging the screwdriver, and moving on to figure out what’s going on and hopefully stop any more carnage.  It’s a harsh reminder, and Bill’s first experience, of how the Doctor can’t save everybody; he isn’t that kind of infallible hero.

As for the situation in “Smile”, that was more a mistake than anything.  His mind sometimes — often — jumps to the wrong conclusions, especially when time seems to be of the essence, and he honestly believed he would be protecting humans by blowing up a bunch of robots, not realizing the humans were already there.

Also, in a way, the Doctor isn’t the only one, or at least doesn’t have to be.  After all, it’s a title — a promise he made to himself, an ideal he lives up to on his good days.  On the others he’s just a bloke in a box telling stories who makes mistakes, is weak, fails — a man with no name.  In any case, others could take up the promise for themselves, be Doctors in spirit if not in title.  The Sim-Doctor realized he wasn’t the real Doctor, but he didn’t have to be.  He just had to honor one of the real one’s core principles — to never give up or give in if there’s a chance to do good — and that made him the Doctor, if only for a precious shining moment.

[Anonymous @]

@missrori

Puro here: that’s a good explanation of  “Cowardice  and Selfishness!”  I shall show Thane this tomorrow….

Thank you for the discussion

Puro

[MissRori @missrori]

@thane15  Ah, just saw your latest post.  Yes, each companion is special in their own way, and Clara happened to have a particularly important role in all of his lives up to that point, just by being the Impossible Girl.  And then she convinced him that Gallifrey didn’t have to fall, allowing him to undo his greatest regret and crime.  And then she convinced the Time Lords to give him another set of lives when he was ready to breathe his last.  And then she was the first lifeline he had as his Twelfth self, the first anchor he had.  He came to love her for all that.  How could he not go so far for her as she would for him?  It was a tragic folly of course, but he felt he’d failed her after so long, feeling he was “nothing” compared to her…Missy was half-right.  He’d go to Hell for her if she asked…but he’d do it even if she didn’t ask!

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

I dunno, I saw it as something real and genuine.

Thane

It’s a matter of emphasis, rather than what was on the screen, if that makes sense. I’m not trying lump companions into boxes. But neither am i trying to make Clara exceptional, that stands out from the rest.

From my perspective, The Doctor grieves each Companion, when they move on. His wife dies, before he even knew her, and yet knowing this he continued. D8 sacrificed himself to save Rose. D9 mourned Rose when she was lost to him. Theses are very important relationships to him. But in none of these instances, all of which are as important to him (or more so with River surely) does he go insane (as @missrori put in) and try to attempt to undo what happened to them or even to reverse there death. I accept hell bent can provide an excuse (but only if you accept that each of the billions of Doctors that were created by the transmat can each remember what they saw). My point is that Clara is the exception. I dont see anything on screen that warrants that.

River was equally an enigma and remained so whilst they met subsequently until the mystery was revealed and explained. Moff chose to make River and the Doctor a married couple. Surely that relationship was closer and more meaningful than with Clara ? If any death was to push the Doctor over the edge it would be that one surely ?

I think the mind wipe was pat compared to the build up. The death and the Doctor’s subsequent actions were built up over 2.5 episodes. The memory wife covers a fraction of that time. In any case, the memory wife doesn’t resolve the situation at all (in the way that the Doctor letting Clara go after their good bye would have).

Zombie Clara goes on. The Doctor forgets. He doesn’t get to accept that “in rage and grief I did this bad thing, which I have found the strength not to do before – let alone immediately afterwards on Della with River – , but I corrected my mistake. I have learned something about myself. I have grieved for Clara. I will honour and never forget her memory etc etc.

Ultimately, its a discussion about the narrative choice Moff made at this point. Letting zombie Clara live is the easy option. Killing her finally is harder. Using a memory wipe is the easy option. Dealing with grief is harder. It’s a Mcguffin ending.

You can say that, its a Children’s show, so we cant do that sort of ending. Perhaps. But then why choose to write that sort of story, if you’re going to pass the buck when you reach the most important part of dealing with grief ?

[Nick @nick]

@Thane15

So far as I recall heaven sent, the Doctor tried to get as far away from the Time Lords as possible, as he expected Clara to come back to life. She didn’t. She’s still dead, but is animated in that momentary instant between the point of death (the shade reaching her) and her death itself.

In horror we have zombies, living dead, vampires. They are all dead, but are animate and can think and plan (well not zombies) just like the living.

[MissRori @missrori]

@nick  I do think it wasn’t fair that the Doctor couldn’t properly grieve his loss once he was free of the dial, thanks to the mind wipe.  Granted, it would have been challenging to find the kind of emotional support he would need for that…Ohila and the Time Lords would have been no help.  The so-called little people of Gallifrey couldn’t begin to understand.  Who could?  I do feel the story painted itself into a corner in this regard, and it did take an easy way out, but there was still meaning in the ending that was.

As for moving on to River Song and seeing that relationship through…he didn’t want to accept that ending either, for the longest time.  But maybe he needed the experience of losing Clara to make him see that there’s no point forever holding off on the inevitable.  He does remember he went too far because he couldn’t accept their relationship ending, but he’s no longer clouded by the high emotions that drove him to that point — since he doesn’t recall why he loved Clara — and can see his behavior more clearly.

In fact, perhaps being put in that firey crucible was what turned him into someone who could fully return River’s love, and understand why once upon a Time Lord she almost destroyed the universe for him.  Two broken souls, finally able to understand the other’s sorrow and hunger…

[Nick @nick]

@thane15 @missrori (Puro)

Contrast Moral courage (wiki definition) :

Moral courage

is the courage to take action for moral reasons despite the risk of adverse consequences. Courage is required to take action when one has doubts or fears about the consequences. Moral courage therefore involves deliberation or careful thought. Reflex action or dogmatic fanaticism do not involve moral courage because such impulsive actions are not based upon moral reasoning. Moral courage may also require physical courage when the consequences are punishment or other bodily peril.

The Doctor fails this test, the moment that he decides not to act to correct his previous action, when he resurrected Clara. Is this not an example or moral cowardice ? Its selfish as well.

[Nick @nick]

@missrori and others

Yes Hell Bound and Heaven Sent were powerful TV. What each of us find to be the most satisfying narrative is always our own preference. None of us are right or wrong in our views on this. Exploring the difference is what is interesting and educational. 🙂

[Anonymous @]

@nick

the moment that he decides not to act to correct his previous action, when he resurrected Clara. Is this not an example or moral cowardice and is selfish as well…

Oh  OK, I find this interesting but personally I don’t see this is cowardice -based on a wiki =quote. I believe that if we use dict. definitions to define our complex corrections of certain details, into a black hole we will fall. To me, cowardice is the last thing which springs to mind as Thane and I both concluded. But look, I understand, for some people, dictionaries are one way to create a ‘neutral test’ zone but I don’t find them helpful, but rather dogmatic. Saying the Dr’s showing cowardice whilst explaining he’s not a coward and using a dictionary to determine this undermines the Doctor’s actions and the writings of Moffat, and co. in my mind (personally, anyway).

Also there’s some goal post changing? Is she “undead; a corpse” or is she” resurrected”?  I can’t hold to the view that Clara is some vampire or zombie: see this is where the show becomes complicated and fits no dogma or panoply of definitions: I say she “plans and processes” in response to your “she’s undead” and then you add “vampires are undead and plan, well not zombies” -is that because it’s not fitting in with the dictionary definitions” 🙂 Either way, we know she’s not one of the “undead” unless we’re in a Buffy parallel world where Xander and Willow ARE the undead!  😀

But I understand your point -certainly this is something we talked a lot about on the Hell Sent thread…we should hop over and take a look at the points there -made effectively by newbies and regulars?

Kindest, Puro

Puro

[Anonymous @]

@nick

Yep, I think that the Memory Wipe ‘fraction’ of time is the problem here -again. It doesn’t matter that it had comparatively  small screen time (it did, in my mind, anyway) but the issue is why it was effected in story and I personally think this was covered astutely and with nuance.

Puro

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

Puro

I used the definition, as it was quicker and simpler than writing my own. I was trying to explain why I chose to use Cowardice rather than just selfish.  I may have mis-written but I didn’t intend to suggest that the Doctor, at that moment, is anything but acting out moral cowardice. The moral thing to do, was to return Clara to the dead, where she belongs. Do you disagree here ? Because if it is moral to resurrect Clara, surely it is just as moral for the Doctor to do the same for River.

I was pondering on the fundamental nature which defines who and what the Doctor is in both BG and AG Who. Its certainly harder in AG Who, as the morality questions are more complicated and less black and white. Put simply, isn’t it his moral code and his courage of acting within that code no mater what the personal cost is ? The examples are numerous where he has put someone else above his own well being. That he fails this test and “saves” Clara isnt to his discredit in the circumstances, but it is why I called it unDoctorish.

So far as I recall heaven sent. The reanimated Clara has no heart beat. I think that is a clear description of being “living dead”. I shouldn’t have used zombie; I was being flippant 🙁 .

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

Puro

I absolutely agree the time wipe, as it was shown, was very well delivered as well as perhaps the only way out of that position once Moff took the decision to not return Clara to the dead. The question is whether that choice of Moff’s was the right one for the Doctor or not ? That’s one reason why I’d be interested to know something of Moff’s thinking.

The doctors basic moral code seems clear enough to me. I contrast how BG who put this question:

and Moffat’s answer in the Magicians Apprentice two parter – is consistent with D4’s analysis. The Doctor saves Davros in the full knowledge of what that means for both himself and the universe.

[Anonymous @]

@nick

no, actually, to me, personally, this is in no way the same with River: her death was a fixed point, but at a time when he didn’t know her; during a time when Clara saved both River and the Doctor during Silence in the Library.

He restored the balance, kind of like faith, of which, right now I’ve had my fill and am rather tired.

G’night.

PS; yes, I’ve always loved that “do I have the right?” excerpt. It resonates very well on so many levels that connections can be made everywhere -@soundworld that’s a call out. 🙂

Thank you.

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

Goodnight Puro.

Don’t tempt me into a debate on Moff’s fixed point. I prefer the BG proposition any day 🙂

[MissRori @missrori]

@nick Oh — about the Moff and the long game…good question!

Well, originally Clara’s story was to wrap up with “Death in Heaven”, but because Jenna Coleman decided to stay it was extended first with “Last Christmas” and then Series 9.  Given how much Clara’s story had to evolve, it’s remarkable that it hangs together at all and ties well into the Twelfth Doctor’s saga.

Moffat went into Series 9 with the intent of it being his last series, which is why it ends with several major plot threads and arcs being resolved:

• The Hybrid storyline
• The saga of Ashildr
• Clara Oswald’s character arc
• The Doctor’s search for Gallifrey
• The Doctor’s relationship with Clara Oswald
• The Doctor’s relationship with River Song

This would have given the next showrunner a relatively clean slate even with an established Doctor; he no longer was seeking out his home, and he was no longer in a long-term relationship.  But in the end he decided to stick around one more year and bring Twelve’s story to a close.  That’s one reason I don’t think the finale leading into the Christmas show can be too grim.  Ten and Eleven’s tenures ended up in pretty positive places for ending in regenerations, and Twelve hasn’t had his “day” as yet.  But I’m just thinking logically…

[Anonymous @]

@nick I think I’ll bow out of this discussion because it’s going in circles and not the correct thread anyway: I think what you are saying is that Moffat’s made terrible decisions. OK. You can have that. Either way.

Ultimately, its a discussion about the narrative choice Moff made at this point. Letting zombie Clara live is the easy option. Killing her finally is harder. Using a memory wipe is the easy option. Dealing with grief is harder. It’s a Mcguffin ending.

There’s an opposite of glamorisation happening here: a very intense black and white view that I can’t get on board with. In fact, really, reading the above I could say this –as easily.

Letting zombie Clara live is the hard option. Killing her finally is easier. Using a memory wipe is the hard option. Dealing with grief is easier.

Because sometimes dealing with grief is actually easier than not. As for the other points I believe we’ve written 100s of words -and as I mentioned, perhaps revisit this yourself on the Hell Sent Threads. There were some sensitive comments made there about the nature of classical tragedy and comedy which may warrant a second look.

I know you really want to convince me (PMs aside) and I’ve certainly refined some of my thoughts on this in light of the last few days.

As for depression: maybe read some of the other commentators and their comments too? “It does no good if equal thought is not shared.”

Good night and good luck!

Puro

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nick  Re the Doctor in HB being “cowardly” — He had the chance to say a final goodbye and find the beginnings of an emotional closure (an overused word) to companion Clara. But he fails that test and runs from the best answer, which would be to stop and return Clara to her grave.

Okay, got it now.  How interesting!  I’m seeing what you’re seeing, but I think I’m seeing it through a specifically feminist lens: I see “I save people” — and I sure as hell am going to save you, no matter how.  To me, this reads as fear, yes, fear of losing some one again and fear of the pain that would cause him (not her, because she’d be truly dead and feeling nothing).  But beneath that I also see defiance — he still hasn’t learned from Ashildr’s ordeal of immortality.  I see his rebelliousness against Death making him see everybody he cares about die.  And I see a kind of privilege: “I’m the Doctor, this is what I do, because I can.”

And, of course, “If I can’t do this — save a very important person in my life — then — am I the Doctor?  If not, who am I, what am I for?”  So he must act, in any way that confirms his identity as this hero-figure he’s made of himself by responding to fear with defiance (even though that ID embarrasses him when he’s called a hero because he knows his failures).

What turns him back into a hero, for me, is that he listens to what Clara has to say for herself, instead of continuing to listen to what he has to say to himself, and he gets it, as he didn’t with Donna.  He responds to Clara by putting them both on a footing of parity, “flipping a coin”.  But he’s truly committed to that act and that parity, which he’s created by acknowledging her right to play the cards she’s dealt along with him playing the hand he’s about to be dealt.

It’s not cowardice, to me.  It’s growth, a step forward into greater maturity, which pays off in his handling of River’s impending death later on.  That clever solution — 24 years — is the fruit of his turning away from the role of “I’m the decider” (*either way*) to “let’s play it as it lays”: acceptance, but not by putting his brain on ice (but first, 24 yrs on Darillium).

And I hope there’s a grain of sense in here somewhere.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@soundworld  he would be able to link directly into the ‘hall of records’ and access the full horror of what he went through.

Hmm, a tulku who can visit the akashic “library” — but then wouldn’t he also remember everything about Clara that he’s forgotten, neural blocker or no neural blocker?  kind of undercuts the end of HB for me.  And yes, I’m not counting out the possibility that the Doctor is out of kilter in some way, but because of the kid who falls through the ice.  I argue that that could be his alien nature showing, but it could also be more and else.

@missrori  He wouldn’t want to help others anymore, because look what happened because he helped Ashildr and her people, he lost the love of his lives! He’d become little better than Missy, and possibly worse.

Neat; so, from a long perspective, he was at least willing to take the chance of wiping his own memory with the neural thingie instead of hers.

@thane15  So it’s in the giving away, in giving Clara back to the universe free of the Doctor and travelling with an equally strong individual, Lady Me, that he shows himself at his most unselfish.

Wow.  I certainly hadn’t thought about it that way — but if you want to extend it a bit, he’s been complicit with Clara in the making of a human “Doctor” out of her, and being able to head out into the universe like that isn’t just a gift to her; it’s also, he trusts, a gift to the universe (making up for having been so cavalier about blowing the whole thing up just to save her, before): she’ll be the best “Doctor” she can, without him, and undistracted by worries about him.  And I agree with @missy that he’s been playing fast and loose with that big brain of his (talk about recklessness!).  Maybe he’ll choose to regenerate because he faces the fact that he can’t depend on his self definition any more — too many mistakes lately?

@missrori  He’d go to Hell for her if she asked…but he’d do it even if she didn’t ask!

“I never asked for that!”  “You shouldn’t have to ask!!”  Part of the “hero” role is that you don’t always stop to ask — you just get to work saving people, especially the ones you love.  Even when that also means, yanking the reins out of their own lives out of their hands now and then . . .

[GlasgowBoy @glasgowboy]

Just watched this episode and found it very enjoyable. On the plus side – great fun. Liked the references to various films, both visual (First Men in the Moon, Zulu, Jason and the Argonauts) and spoken. Liked the whole  steam punk thing. On the negative side- some of the dialogue lazy and poor “Oi Queenie!” And the very naff sneaking round the back to steal the big gun when no-one is looking. Easy to forgive the plot holes though. A very enjoyable episode

Question – is it just me or are we getting some cheap cardboard cut out for some of the Tardis exterior shots?

[Nick @nick]

@ichabod

Yes its interesting. I dont think saving Clara was wrong, or even the wrong thing to do (although saving someone who is physically dead – no heart beat –  and remains so is surely problematic). I think, to repeat my comment which started this particular discussion running, its undoctorish.

Broadly speaking, after trying everything and anything to save a companion/friend/innocent/anybody else who deserves it – right up to self sacrifice, he accepts that he failed, grieves and goes on. Clara is the only time he does something different. In my opinion, ultimately, he doesn’t managed to save Clara here, as she remains dead.  She is immortal (maybe), but in a different way than either Captain Jack or Me, who remain biologically alive. To a greater or lessor extent dont both Jack and Me find immortality to be a curse quite soon after it happening as well ?

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

Puro

A couple of things. I dont think I’ve written that Moff has made terrible decisions. I cant think of one off the top of my head. Some things work better for me than others, but thats probably true of all of us. In discussing controversial aspects like this one, we are investigating, trying to understand Moff’s creative decisions (the whys).

I’m not trying to convince you or anyone that I’m right. This isnt science or maths where the evidence is capable of showing the one true solution. I am trying to explain, often poorly, my point of view to myself and to you. I hope to read your explanation why you think what you do. It might help change my mind or not. What it will surely do, is to get me to think about what the writer was trying to achieve and ultimately to gain a better appreciation. The other, as important is that I get to learn something new. I hope you/others do too.

🙂

Nick

 

 

[MissRori @missrori]

@ichabod , @missy

@ichabod wrote:

And I agree with @missy that he’s been playing fast and loose with that big brain of his (talk about recklessness!).  Maybe he’ll choose to regenerate because he faces the fact that he can’t depend on his self definition any more — too many mistakes lately?

I think he is “wearing thin” and his recent exploits are speeding it up somewhat, taking their toll on his dying mind and spirit.  In fact, he could well be terminally ill — and have been so all along this season, even.  But he can’t just “jump” to his next life; the way the show tends to present regeneration, it would be a sort of suicide, and that’s pretty dark as a way for a Doctor to go out.  A slow death like this is nightmarish enough as it is.

Blastr had an article yesterday discussing one theory that’s been floated — perhaps The Doctor had to, accidentally or on purpose, give up his ability to regenerate to save Missy from execution; he absorbed some of the energy that was to finish her off.  So he’s slowly dying, and since he isn’t expecting to live again, he’s been mentoring Bill in hopes she can, in some way, carry on his work when he’s gone, and trying to tie up his affairs with Missy as the last good deed of his lives.

That’s an interesting take, but Sim-Doctor noted that the eyesight-restoring device could jeopardize future lives and/or his ability to regenerate, and the Doctor was able to fool around a bit with regeneration energy for Bill’s “test”.  I think he can still regenerate, but if he’s ill and knows The End is near, he’s understandably anxious that it won’t go off properly, especially since he doesn’t know how many lives he has left, and has gone through experiences like the dial that may have compromised it in ways he doesn’t yet know.  So he doesn’t want to take any chances that his affairs aren’t all in order, at least as much as he can make them (does he even have the dial anymore?).  What his illness is, well it could be all sorts of things couldn’t it?  It may or may not be what Missy noticed at the end of this episode, anyway.

What I want to know is why Susan was brought up at the top of this season.  The revival had never mentioned her before in such a way, and so far there hasn’t been a payoff to that as there was with River Song…could this lead into the Christmas special?

[Anonymous @]

@nick

I don’t think I’ve written that Moff has made terrible decisions

well, you kinda did imply it, Nick, when you said over on the other thread:

“keep his reputation” as if it needs saving. 🙂  Does it?

I can’t help this but I feel like doing an impression of some weird monster, limping along,  dribbling red sores;  yelling out “food, argh, beer, ah, stone, fire, ah look!” -all green and covered in goo, falling into a drunken stupor lying on a bench: and then a few people come along and say “hey, isn’t that ….? isn’t  it Steven Moffat? Oh wow. What happened to him?”

Sorry, it’s school gettin’ to me probs.  🙂

Thane

g’ight.

[Nick @nick]

@thane15

he would be able to link directly into the ‘hall of records’ and access the full horror of what he went through.

As i explained on the other thread I was referring to Chibnall (and Broadchucsh is the foundation of his reputation)

 

[Brewski @brewski]

Hey all!

No bonkers theories this time.  (Despite the attempt at the end to urge us into one. 🙂 )

I did enjoy the episode.  Noticed several people talked about it being fun and light, but it really wasn’t to me.  One of them more serious Gatiss ones, I thought.

Show of hands: who would want to see PC sing to Aggedor! 😀

 

[Whisht @whisht]

oops – been away a coupla days so haven’t replied to a few people (bad me!).

@soundworld
When I said I really liked Gomez’s Missy I wasn’t intimating anything lustful (tut tut).
Though she is quite attractive….

No, I really like the way Gomez delivers lines – she seems to find words delicious if that makes sense.

I’m no wordsmith so can only reply with this ditty (yours is infinitely superior).

There once was a Timelord gawn mad.
Through drumming he heard as a lad,
He’d shrink and he’d kill,
Making his friend feel quite ill,
But he couldn’t believe he’s all bad.

[soundworld @soundworld]

@whisht

Excellent!

No, I really like the way Gomez delivers lines – she seems to find words delicious if that makes sense.

… and that is the sense of delicious which I meant – her entire delivery, I certainly didn’t mean to imply anything else ( I could have stopped to think before posting, of course) 🙂

[nerys @nerys]

As usual, I had to watch this episode twice before reflecting on it here. One thing that stood out to me was how visually convincing the Empress was with her very sharp teeth. Often such makeup/prosthetic/special effects artifacts look “put on” … but hers didn’t. I completely believed her as the creature she was.

I apologize in advance for my ignorance: Would it have been historically accurate for a soldier like Vincey to be serving in a Victorian-era regiment?

Also, I was so hoping Vincey would make it. He was looking forward to being reunited with his fiance, in a place that was so, so green. Yet he was tragically and selfishly sacrificed by Catchlove (whom I couldn’t help but call Francatelli, due to his recent showing in Victoria). That, for me, was the saddest part of the episode, and not really remarked upon. He was just gone.

Another thought occurred to me: While it would have been quite amusing to have a portrait of Jenna Coleman’s Victoria, it would have caused no end of confusion for viewers who hadn’t caught both series. (“Man, Clara really did milk that last second of her life!”) Rather, they used a portrait of Pauline Collins’ Victoria, from the “Tooth and Claw” episode. Did anyone else catch the remarkable resemblance between Collins and Coleman? I instantly thought that Collins looked like Coleman would at the same age.

[Anonymous @]

@nerys

true they are very similar, and yes, as he spoke about “it’s so green” Thane did say “well, he’s gonna die.”

“Oh Thane no, don’t be so cynical”

Sure enough, he gets totalled and balled up.  (-_-)

@brewski

Too true: quite serious: he did the Singing Whale with Mat Smith no? I actually loved that episode.

I also adored Rings of Aknaton: probably not a Gattis episode. 🙂

Puro

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@nerys

Would it have been historically accurate…

Actually, @wolfweed posted a very interesting article about just that question, over on the Spoilers thread at #59056

[nerys @nerys]

@thane15 Sadly, I kept my hopes up … only to have them dashed.

@blenkinsopthebrave Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I missed that article. Very enlightening! (Though I’m betting they were quoting Gatiss, not Davies, at the end of the article, since Gatiss is the only one quoted throughout.)

Thanks to @wolfweed for posting this; here’s the link, in case anyone else missed it: Mark Gatiss admits protesting against black actor’s casting as Victorian soldier

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nerys  I apologize in advance for my ignorance: Would it have been historically accurate for a soldier like Vincey to be serving in a Victorian-era regiment?

Gatiss talked about this in an interview — but he came across an article about a young boy who was adopted by a regiment in — somewhere in Africa of the middle east (?) who did, in fact, grow up to serve in the Army, but not as a soldier — some kind of support position, but it did entail wearing a uniform.  He took the record of there having been at least that one POC in Victoria’s troops as license to write him (a version of) into the story.  So it’s a hell of a stretch, but — there was this one, at least.

 

[nerys @nerys]

@ichabod Thank you for that additional explanation. It was something that stood out to me … and then, of course, the poor fellow got turned into a beach ball. As you say, his presence is a stretch (well, given their locale, the presence of all of them is a stretch), but not beyond the realm of possibility.

[ichabod @ichabod]

@nerys  Yeah, pretty stretchy all round, but that’s DW for you, and it was a cheery little “Tarzan and Gunga Din at King Solomon’s Mines” story with a more accurate take on Victorian Empire building.  Except for the beach ball part . . .

[lisa @lisa]

Well I  haven’t looked here for many days  so I’ve read some, scanned some skipped some.

What I notice here is mostly how almost everyone  seems more interested in the goings

on of CapDocs particular internal struggles then I’ve actually been.

I get that this is crucial to this story arc in ways that have not been  previously explored in this show.

Its began in his very first episode with the question “am I a good man’  and we’ve had him under

a microscope ever since.

But what I’ve liked best in this season is his struggle with Missy!  I would seriously have had enough of the

anguishing if it were not for the Missy aspect of his story. It’s been a big surprise seeing Missy show

the Doctor some  empathy in several scenes over a few episodes.  My theory is that her empathy maybe

just a sign of her narcissism.  I’m actually a lot  more interested in finding out how altruistic

Moffett makes her than in all the Doctors personal complications.  I’m guessing that by Christmas

whatever happens he’ll be getting rescued just in time.   Respectfully,  I’m ready for it and quite honestly

I think the Doctor will be too.

 

BTW,  if you don’t have a smoke alarm and a small fire extinguisher in your kitchens then folks may I

humbly suggest you get them!   They don’t cost much and they have good peace of mind value!

Doesn’t matter if your a renter or home owner.   Think of it like seat belts.

 

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

empress transcript

What manner of fleshy worm are you?

[MissRori @missrori]

@lisa I agree that this fussing over the Doctor’s state of mind is important yet may be missing a forest for the trees. Can Missy be good, and for how long?  That’s the most pressing question. The finale would be tragic enough if she cannot be… 😉

[Missy @missy]

@nick:  I suspect that we will need, in a couple of years, to rewatch the whole of Capaldi’s run, using hindsight to fully appreciate what both Moff and Capaldi actually achieved.

I have watched the whole run  quite a few times – up to now – and fully appreciate their achievements NOW. I don’t need a couple of years. Perhaps I am easily pleased, but I do know that I have been more transported, with dleight, sadness, grief and laughter,  since Capaldi took over the Doctorship.

Missy

 

[Missy @missy]

@thane15: I see. I get what you mean: I didn’t realise you meant selfish! Or cowardly and I must say that I cannot agree with you with regards to Clara. It upsets me I suppose: that a man, as @missy eloquently put it (and yes you DO add to the discussion. Always!) who has saved countless lives, should not let  Clara out: I think you said that Clara’s a “reanimated corpse, undead not living”. I should add that’s disturbing: and not set out in the story anywhere? She lives, moves, thinks, rationalises, processes and loves, profoundly, still.

I copied the above so you will know which post I am referring to.

I couldn’t said all of the above any better, we obviously – to a point – think alike.  Cowardly the Doctor ain’t, vulnerable he definitely is. Which is what has endeared me to Capaldi’s Doctor from the first.

Missy

[Missy @missy]

@nick:

In Hell bent, he made a mistake, he went too far, he admits it. That to me makes him  as  human as the rest of us – just for that one time.

Clara had (although I liked her) grown a little too big for her boots. She got carried away by her performance in Flat Line, so much so, that she thought she was as smart and as invulnerable as the Doctor. She brought what happened to her on herself, which to fair she admits. Remember her telling Rigsy, that if her plan went wrong, the Doctor  would sort it out? Realising this, the Doctor is full of guilt for letting it get this far, so sets out to save her, but of course he can’t bring her back from the dead. In his grief he wasn’t thinking straight, he began backtracking to make it right and in the process made it worse.

How many of us haven’t been in that position some time in their lives?  I have. Is it any wonder that in Empress of Mars he looks tired and even unwell?

For me Heaven Sent and Hell Bent told the age old story of  loving too much, but not well and now he is paying for it.

Missy

[MissRori @missrori]

@missy And think of all he’s gone through since he had to lose his memories of Clara to make up for his mistakes — he’s effectively homeless since there’s no indication he’s returned to Gallifrey, is still hurting over having to let River Song go to her fate, stuck with the duty of watching over Missy and not being able to make off-Earth trips for decades.  Bill brightened up his life, but his getting out into the universe again has led to more problems for him — near-death, blindness, six months working as a mole amongst the Monks, etc.  And he still has to come to terms with the Missy business at some point; this situation cannot hold.  And he’s at least two centuries old now, and his body was not a “spring chicken” to begin with — he can’t pretend he’s hale and hearty as Ten and Eleven could.  I think he knows he’s got one foot in the grave, and isn’t sure what’s ahead for him.

Poor guy’s just wearing thin…

[Whisht @whisht]

So, thought I’d channel some wolfweed but am scaling scary heights.

In Empress the scientists were waiting for the Valkyrie [lander, satellite etc] to beam back its imaging of Mars.

Which is a nice touch as the last time we saw graffiti on Mars was from Viking

[ok ok its not grafitti – or was it (finger to side of lips)]

[Nick @nick]

@whisht

Doctor Manhattan ? 🙂

[Author]

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