The Zygon Invasion
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Dentarthurdent 7 months, 1 week ago.
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6 November 2015 at 06:44 #46412
The Amazing Grace explanation was beautifully written. @bluesqueakpip
6 November 2015 at 06:59 #46413I think the Osgood puzzle is an interesting one. I doubt we will ever find out which one she is, and maybe that is the point. It shouldn’t matter whether she is human or Zygon. If anyone was to find out, then perceptions of her may change with possible judgments made. “Oh, she’s Zygon. Can I trust her?”.
Imagine identical twins, both raised as catholic but later in life one of them converts to Islam. If someone was to meet one of them and ask “Hey, which one are you? the Catholic or the Muslim?” Would they reject the question?Possibly. They may feel the answer is not something that should define them in the eyes of the questioner. If they are peaceful then they should be accepted as an equal citizen of the world without question.
6 November 2015 at 09:36 #46417Anonymous @
@spacedmunkee I agree with your idea there -although I also echo @kharis ‘ opinion regarding @bluesqueakpip ‘s belief that Human Osgood should be the one killed by Missy in Death in Heaven -I thought at the time that it was wise to have a substantial emotional payoff to establish that this elaborately dressed, twirling Scottish woman is/was the Master in every way -but I recall BTL’ers on the Graun displeased -as always, the whingers 🙂 They didn’t want sweet Osgood to be the one killed particularly as she virtually worshipped the Doctor (or at least admired him deeply) and having been told he’d take her “for a spin in the Tardis” (or whatever the Doctor would normally say) made her giddy with excitement
6 November 2015 at 11:03 #46420@purofilion @bluesqueakpip @spacedmunkee @kharis
I think the explanation that they have (thus far) gone with is the best : it doesn’t matter which one was killed. To answer that would be to answer the wrong question.
6 November 2015 at 20:55 #46429@pedant: However the very first moments of the episode indicate the two Osgoods were concerned that the loss of either would potentially be a fatal blow to the peace, because the two together are the peace. The two Zygon leaders stopped communicating with UNIT after the death of one. If I am to believe what has been stated by both the Osgoods and the Doctor and shown in the episode, one Osgood may not be enough.
6 November 2015 at 21:10 #46431I think it doesn’t matter morally, but it does matter artistically.
6 November 2015 at 22:54 #46441@purofilion
Love to hear your stories! You always have an entertaining perspective about everything.@geoffers @bluesqueakpip
Regarding the song Amazing Grace, I immediately thought that since its a song about conversion
then has to be a subtle reference to Clara and the hybrid conversion. But I also can get the
Zygon hint too.@kharis
The 8th Doctor film was set in San Francisco. So how about a script that’s something like the
Doctor having Sara Jane style adventures with some young Whosters from Frisco? One comes
from silicon valley as a techie geek and maybe another young Whoster is Berkeley health nut
environmentalist which also has a Rigsby type Zygon double that teaches dance and science?
I thru in the Zygon since its a Zygon thread and the dance and science:) (Did you catch how I
sneaked that). I can totally see how that might work.
It can also pick up Whosters from other places in the world/universe. Something like where
Sara Jane left off and possibly a bit similar to how the new BBC ‘Class” series is that’s
being developed now might do.
Oh my! Did I just have a sudden in the moment sort of burst of wild experimenting?2purofilion
6 November 2015 at 23:33 #46443No, I think it is a sound artistic choice as well. The questions it raises are far more interesting.
I don’t disagree, but it is possible Remaining!Osgood is trying to re-write the rules.
6 November 2015 at 23:56 #46452@pedant (alright you’re using ! a lot more now for artistic purposes)
Yes, I see: the questions should be “why?” “what do we do now?” I suppose rather than “who is she?” or “which one is she?”
That, I can see, is problematic as once it’s answered it doesn’t really lead anywhere particularly important or significant.
Hmmm
7 November 2015 at 00:34 #46458@pedant and @purofilion
I think Osgood turning out to be Zygon Osgood does lead somewhere both important and significant. It gives us (assuming Osgood is genuinely trying to maintain the treaty) someone who’s been seen to be a villain onscreen, but then becomes good.
It opens up an entire, interesting can of worms in Who. We’ve had good people from races who were previously entirely villainous, so that we’re working away from the idea of ‘the evil race of [insert alien of choice here]. But apart from a short scene in The Name of The Doctor, we never saw Madame Vastra or Strax strutting their evil stuff.
But we did see an entire group of Zygons (including Zygon Osgood) busily trying to take over Earth. If Zygon Osgood is now trying to help save the Earth, that’s a big moral turnaround. It’s not, like Dalek Rusty, an engineering problem. It’s not, like the BG Ice Warriors, a turnaround with a completely new set of individuals.
The thing I dislike about ‘we will never know’ is that – unless they give the audience some reason to seriously think Osgood may in fact be Zygon Osgood – we’re all going to want it to be Human Osgood who survived. So we will all, probably, decide Osgood is Human Osgood. Whereas, if our former villain not only has her moment of redemption (in The Day of The Doctor) but now has an entire Two Part Story of Redemption, that suggests that redemption arcs for any major Who villain are now up for grabs for any writer who wants to do one.
More importantly, it tells this generation of small Whovians that people who do evil things don’t have to keep on doing evil. Somebody who chooses to do evil can choose to fight evil. It’s a choice.
7 November 2015 at 01:05 #46459Yes, I can see that -I’m like at a tennis match -nodding at one, and then at the other!
True, if you have a villain who stops doing evil permanently then it is definitely new and I suppose it parallels all sorts of real life issues. I was watching a British doco on ‘Child Lifers’ in the States who really had no idea to what they were pleading guilty. Whole groups of 13 yr olds doing Life with no possibility of parole and yet -they can’t drink, or join the armed services, have sex, get a learner’s permit to drive etc… At say, 24, 12 years after their horrendous crime one can see that they’re different people -seemingly dedicated to a life of something other than that one awful moment of crime.
Hmmm
7 November 2015 at 02:24 #46461@bluesqueakpip @purofilion
Yes, I see your reasoning. But it seems to be the more profound question is about identity: what is it to be a person? To be a Zygon? To be sentient?
Moffatt has stated that one of his ‘things’ is that the bad guys do not know that they are bad guys (and if you think about it, the Daleks are essentially massively abused Kaleds. There’s an awful lot of psychology that says that the abused becomes the abuser). From their point of view the Zygons are doing what Zygons do, nothing more nothing less, and the status quo ante will always try to assert itself.
But… but…
So what does it mean to be a Zygon?
What does it mean to work for UNIT?
And does it really matter?
What does it mean to be a muslim?
What does it mean to be a secularist?
And does it really matter?
Osgood’s refusal to choose was really potent and I hope Moff has the chops to go follow through (but would have no particular objection to your scenario either – it just seems a bit obvious in a story that has drunk deep of its obvious quota).
In this respect Moff has the potential to be a few steps ahead of Richard Dawkins, whose small-minded conservatism is becoming increasingly embarrassing to those of us who have been atheists since we were eight.
7 November 2015 at 02:40 #46462Now that I think harder about it, of course the Zygons have to be able to retain their human form away from humans. Why didn’t the Doctor realize this? After all, the Zygon residents of Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, are thousands of miles away from the UK, and even if their copying can work over that distance, they can’t afford to turn back into Zygons just because their human double got hit by a bus.
@purofilion: Unfortunately for the Osgoods’ breathless declaration that every species has good or bad, the two previous arcs showed two new species the Fisher King’s and the Mire that appear to be pure evil in some sense.
I think what is missing, and may never be said in this serial, is that before two species can live in peace, there can’t be a compete asymmetry in power so that once side can crush the other without much of a struggle. I once saw a documentary where the ant colonies were being studied for when there would be total warfare with one colony wiped out, and it turned out the ant colonies would periodically skirmish, and only if one colony appeared much weaker would the other one go all-out to destroy it.
7 November 2015 at 02:43 #46463@pedant yes, dawkins is increasingly laughable, undignified and prodigiously disturbing.
I think Moff has been exploring the concept of identity since he officially took over -even in the Tennant years during his own episodes he would look at ‘monsters’ without the critical “OMG, let’s just run” but rather “aren’t you beautiful” which makes the Doctor different to so many ‘time travellers’ who approach everything from a fear based negative level.
What makes you who you are? is the question he adopts frequently and I like it. I think Moff and other similar writers deal with questions of identity, epistemology, phenomenology moving away from the intellectual doldrums in which other writers mire themselves -their own worst nature, in a way.
7 November 2015 at 05:16 #46479So we have ‘run you clever boy and remember me’. Then we have Davros suddenly having new
memories about the Doctor and sends him a message thru snake man. The writing on the alien
spacecraft in Under the Lake implants a message inside of people’s minds. Ahildr has issues
with memories and writes journals (messages to herself). Zygons shape shift but also implant
minds. Add to that the cd of Rasilon has a message from the Doctor. Clara has a lot of relevant
information about the Doctor. He has told her all sorts of memories. This can lead to a catastrophe
for him. He has to realize that this is problematic and may also be afraid that she might be able
to free Galifrey with these memories. Dark Bonnie is a major threat because she can access Clara’s
memories. The Doctor will need to shut Bonnie down because he can be compromised by her. Then there
is this theme of good and evil. So will the Doctor will be forced to do something to Clara to
protect himself from what she knows especially if she goes to the dark side. So what can he do?
Maybe create a hybrid of Clara to protect the universe from his ‘friend’? At the end of The Woman
Who Lived he asks Clara ‘who are you?” Clara says ‘I’m not going anywhere’ but I think the Doctor was
thinking “oh aren’t you?” It could be the shock coming. That the Doctor has been planning to ‘hack’
Clara in some way for some time. Its what he has to do before she abuses his trust and his secrets.7 November 2015 at 08:09 #46484@lisa I really like your line of thought here. Clara has the info in her head, but so does River. River has all the same info, uploaded to the largest library in the universe. Just sitting there like a book on a shelf. Not a safe place to store it.
7 November 2015 at 11:14 #46490Hey guys,
Me and my friend recently started a podcast talking about each episode and giving our opinion, starting with The Zygon Invasion. Its about 10 mins and would love it people would check it out and give us some feedback.
(If this isnt the most appropiate place to post this please advise, dont want to annoy anyone 🙂 )
7 November 2015 at 11:48 #46492I have a new bonkers theory, back in Before the Flood when the Doctor was talking to O’Donnell, while Bennett’s prawn sandwich is repeating on him, they talk about how she was demoted for dangling someone out a window in anger. This struck me as an odd thing to say, it could have been just a throw away comment, but what if O’Donnell was a Zygon and literally was demoted for dangling someone out a window? Before the Flood is set after The Zygon Invasion, so perhaps humans and Zygons work it out? Is Bonnie the War Minister?
7 November 2015 at 11:54 #46493@pedant So what does it mean to be a Zygon?
Or, So what does it mean to be a Zygon, particularly when one’s home planet has been blown up in this <insert adjective> time war, and now we’re meant to work with this man/Time lord whose race was one of those responsible?! From that viewpoint I think they’ve been remarkably calm. Anyway, that’s the backstory, and, whatever the current situation, there’s always a backstory. Whether its our personal story, or countries, it can be very helpful to acknowledge the history, and very unhelpful to stay stuck in it. It appears that the Majority!Zygon (© @pedant ) want to move on, integrate (lets hope its a majority). But, as is the case in the current day parallels, what does it mean to live in a situation where the next generation down the line may choose to rebel again?
@purofilion What makes you who you are?
Who Nose! 🙂 I think this question is why I’m finding the series so absorbing. The Doctors attitude, which I’m very sympathetic to, would seem to be that it doesn’t matter what (alien) race you are, its all part of life, its all ‘people’. And, some people do bad things. As I’ve learned in my life, its not usually personal, its just that’s what they do, its how they are (and, as @bluesqueakpip pointed out above, they don’t necessarily keep on doing it, there is always the possibility for a fresh choice). So, the question becomes, what do you do about it?
Please pardon my atrocious grammar today. I stayed up waaaay too late and am now brain-frazzled.
Anyway, time will tell… specifically a time tonight!
7 November 2015 at 13:42 #46509@jphhamlore
Why didn’t the Doctor realize this?
He did. If the audio adventures of the Eighth Doctor are canon – and we know that he has mentioned Lucie – he knows perfectly well that a Zygon can maintain human form when the original human has died.
What this really was is ‘updating the audience with the progression since the last TV adventure’. The audio adventures had a much smaller audience.
In-story, I think he wanted to see if Osgood knew this. If she hadn’t known it, she was the human. If she did, either her Zygon twin told her or she’s the Zygon twin.
7 November 2015 at 14:25 #46521What does it mean to be a muslim?
What does it mean to be a secularist?
And does it really matter?Well, that’s the big question isn’t it? Because it does.
Basically, the Zygons in this story are in the position of Muslims in strongly secularist states such as France. They have absolute legal equality, providing that they don’t wear a headscarf or ask if there can be an alternative to pork on a school menu, or basically don’t do anything in any way that shows they’re Muslim.
It’s one law for the religious and non-religious alike, which prohibits you equally from wearing religious symbols. Or provides you with equal access to pork casserole for lunch.
Similarly, the Zygons have absolute legal equality provided they maintain a human appearance at all times, pretend they are no different from the humans around them and eat fried chicken like proper Brits instead of Skarasen milk like grandma made back home. 😉
It’s not a genuine equality. It’s an equality which ignores the point that there are presumably situations where a Human and a Zygon will come up with a different answer and behave in different ways; just as you and I will come up with a different answer and behave in different ways – because I’m basing my answer/ways on my Christianity and you’re basing yours on your atheism.
It was undoubtedly the best equality the treaty-makers could come up with at the time – but it kicked the necessity for a good, hard discussion on what, really, is non-negotiable in our society and what, really, is going to be different about us, further down the road.
7 November 2015 at 14:42 #46522lots of bonkers theories, but i have to admit,
this series is by far the best since tennant era, 2 parters are so much better, especially for all us online, As we get to debate all week about what it means! lol but more than that, it bring excitment, after all, classic who was built on long stories, cliffhangers etc, this is what the future of doctor who should be, not all 2 parters, if an series is 13 episodes, there should be 4 or 5 2/parters, and 3 stand alone episodes, with the stand alone ones having a say in the series ark.
i just wish and prey, that steven moffat would bring back classics, like early cyberman, as everyone wants that, bring back omega, 6 months ago i was screaming for davros, and it delivered big time!!!
7 November 2015 at 17:19 #46524“This series is by far the best since Tennant era”
Are you serious? (One of my eyes twitches nervously) 🙂
Parters are fine, but they mean fewer new ideas, characters and monsters.
7 November 2015 at 17:31 #46525does anyone think, that when the 2 osgoods made the video message, when they said “im osgood” “im also osgood” remember that, it will be important later”
my first impression from that is the one that says it will be important later is the zygon, ie the one that has infiltrated unit, doctor who love to put easter eggs out, i just feel that its going to have a major say in the story!!
7 November 2015 at 17:40 #46526Hmmm. I can’t help thinking of the Irishman asked for directions who replies “Well, I wouldn’t start from here.”
I don’t think it unreasonable that a country with a centuries long tradition of taking in refugees (whether officially or through the efforts of Nicholas Winton et al) permits itself an element of “our house, our rules” and that France has woefully over-cooked this (to placate those who may vote FN) does not negate that.
That isn’t really the issue: it is about asking someone to choose: in or out, with us or against us, black or white, human or Zygon. That is a fundamentalists position, and Osgood rejected it.
I fell out with the Labour Party when its Christian fundamentalists leader team up with another Christian Fundamentalist leader to launch a war agains a Secular fundamentalist, crippling its war against a Muslim fundamentalist and thus allowing another group of Muslim fundamentalists to step in, provoking a Russian nationalist fundamentalist to stick its oar in with predictably tragic consequences. And you don’t even need different core philosophies: Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia, Stalinist/ Maoist, Bolshevik/Menshevik.
The instance on being one or the other, with or against, what Osgood challenged.
7 November 2015 at 19:22 #46531‘Our house, our rules’ is fine when you know what our rules are, which of them are important, and which of them are unwittingly rude to guests. Like, say, offering them your family’s normal full cooked breakfast on Sunday. 🙂
That isn’t really the issue: it is about asking someone to choose: in or out, with us or against us, black or white, human or Zygon. That is a fundamentalists position, and Osgood rejected it.
Exactly. The Osgoods rejected it. Are they human or Zygon? They’re both. But the right to be both includes the right to occasionally look like a Zygon, no? Otherwise ‘my house, my rules’ is unwittingly saying ‘You are unwelcome guests’. It’s taking a ‘in or out’ view: either you are human. Or you pretend to be human. No other races need apply.
If you want to get off the religion metaphor, then I’d say that demanding Zygons always look human has overtones of ‘passing’ – that era when light skinned African-Americans would move somewhere they weren’t known and ‘pass’ as ‘white’.
‘Christian Fundamentalist’ has a very specific meaning, btw. It’s a very conservative (small c) movement within American Protestantism which believes that the Bible is literally true. The term travelled over to Islam because the ‘Islamic fundamentalists’ also had a very conservative attitude, and a very literalist interpretation of sacred sources. Both groups do also have a very strong ‘in or out’ view.
You may not like the politics of that particular bunch of politicians, and you may feel that their decisions were influenced in some way by their religion encouraging them to see non-Christians as ‘not-like-us’. But none of them are ‘Christian fundamentalists’.
Just some bigoted politicians.
7 November 2015 at 20:58 #46534Oh, that’s pure special pleading, up there with Humpty Dumpty. At the most generous it is naive etymology (A curiosity about attempts to codify the English language: when both Johnson and Fowler did their great works they were aiming to be prescriptive, and missed).
When a Muslim places there idea of faith above all else, and the expense of human decency that is fundamentalism; when a Christian places there idea of faith above all else, and the expense of human decency, that is fundamentalism, when a Communist places their ideology, above all else, and the expense of human decency, that is fundamentalism and an ultra-nationalist etc etc. It is just another brand of extremism.
Anyway, we have out answer to this should go to the new thread, I guess.
7 November 2015 at 21:25 #46540<span class=”Apple-style-span”>If you want to get off the religion metaphor, then I’d say that demanding Zygons always look human has overtones of ‘passing’ – that era when light skinned African-Americans would move somewhere they weren’t known and ‘pass’ as ‘white’.</span>
That is brilliant. #zygonlivesmatter
11 November 2015 at 10:26 #46783@starla I agree. The Doctor seemed rather “undoctorish” and originally I just blamed it on the writer, but the writer was amazing, so maybe it was purposeful foreshadowing. Maybe he really is Basil?
11 November 2015 at 17:05 #46795i just wish and prey, that steven moffat would bring back classics, like early cyberman, as everyone wants that, bring back omega, 6 months ago i was screaming for davros, and it delivered big time!!!
There are those like my husband, a longtime Doctor Who viewer, who wishes the opposite. I think he considers it lazy writing to keep relying on the old familiar favorites. He prefers newer ideas, and also standalone episodes. I think this is just a matter of personal taste. I came in later in the series, so I’m OK with them re-exploring old themes. But I also want new ideas and themes. So I think what Moffat & Co. are trying to do is strike a balance and appeal to both sides of the fan base. It’s a bit like trying to keep all the James Bond fans happy … basically an exercise in futility.
16 November 2015 at 05:15 #47054Just watched the Zygon Invasion. I know I’m a little late for this ride but whatever.
No one cares but I created an account just now because I have only one friend who knows anything about Doctor Who and I thought I should spare him this time because… Reasons.
tl;dr
This episode made me want to stop watching the series for good. I am actually rather surprised how so many people here thought it was good or even above inducing suicidal thoughts.Full Rant
MY. F*CKING. GOD!
WHAT? WHAT!? WHAT IS THIS GARBAGE!? I am not even going to talk about the clear idiotic metaphor they were attempting to make. I mean Jesus… I know it’s a science fiction show. Keyword here being fiction. It can’t be perfectly realistic and I shouldn’t expect it to be. But dear God. I can not relate with anyone in this episode. Everyone is an idiot especially on the (seemingly) human side. I am including the doctor in this even though I know he’s not a human. No one seems to be capable of logical thinking. And when I say logical thinking I don’t mean such notions as wiping your ass after a dry poop. That’s fucking hardcore science for every character in this episode. No one is thinking. I know I KNOW suspensions of disbelief is required in a show like this but when that is required of almost every action and reaction, every sentence and every gesture of EVERY. SINGLE. CHARACTER. in the show I draw a line.
It’s fucking Naruto all over again… this show for me, since it reboot in 2005, has gone from slightly cringe worthy to amusing to amazing to the best show in living memory to ok to well I guess they can’t all be perfect to who writes this shit and finally to this piece of “I would happily crush my nuts between two sharp burning coals while stabbing my eyes with butter knives until I reach my cerebellum if I knew it meant that this show was cancelled after my death.”
How anyone could like this particular episode and not see any flaws in it is beyond my comprehension. And while I admit that that might be due to my own faults, and you are free to express that particular notion, I still say if you don’t see the any lack of sense in this episode you are intellectually invalid and I pity you and the fact that you have to deal with everyday life in your condition…
Rant over!16 November 2015 at 05:30 #47057@erebos Okay, I tend to glaze over streams of colourful metaphors, so can you give some examples of what it is about this episode that has you so impassioned? It started out a little predictable, but I felt it ended strong, and the speech had me in tears. What are your reasons, in the form of examples as opposed to a stream of cussing, for disliking it so deeply? Curious.
I understand the pain of having few friends who watch DoctorWho or want to discuss it.
16 November 2015 at 06:16 #47060@erebos
you are intellectually invalid
“The screams of the valiant children abhorred and alone in their vanities and tales of songs and praise…”
Truly I was enjoying your rant until you accused those of us who liked it as “intellectually invalid”
Not to nit pick dude, but even your accusation is grammatically senseless.
Let me see? 17? yr 12 or just graduated/about to start a semester of university? All filled with ‘providence’ and hubris?
Phuck off back to your little hole
@craig @phaseshift I know we shouldn’t feed the trolls but this is about the 4th case of people carrying on with filth and crudity and somehow blaming us! We’re just fans. We don’t have some Moffat loving thing going on -but this person has no ability to even read the Etiquette Page. I’d vote for a ‘delete account’.
Generally I give these people marks for sense, content and expression. On every level I couldn’t even pass it -a C- for all three.
Puropeeved.
16 November 2015 at 06:57 #47062@purofilion
At the moment I’ll leave it up, even if it serves only as a clear example of the lazy minded general Ad hominem attack that plagues other boards.
If @erebos can actually mount some semblance of a critique without resort to abuse as @kharis suggested, he may win a point or two. If not the delete button awaits.
As always, I recommend making those who seem to want to troll to work hard for a response. If it becomes too much like hard work they go away. If they genuinely want to talk they will. Never spend as much time on your response as they have on writing the thing in the first place.
16 November 2015 at 07:10 #47065I wasn’t going to bother to post this and as most trolls don’t bother to go into details it hardly seems worth it but there is one criticism I have frequently seen popping up in discussion of this episode that is countered in the script, but I only realised it on a recent re watch. Kate goes alone to Truth or Consequences because, as she states at the beginning, they have only a handful of people they can trust. When your enemy is capable of assuming the face of your best friend, family or trusted colleague it is wisest to act alone.
@purofilion I understand why you reacted so on the other thread. It is tiresome, like fleas really and they always come out in plague proportions at this time of year. The only negative to having a wonderful series of Doctor Who on our screens.
@kharis I think it is another sad case of “Anticippointment”. (My new favourite word.)
Cheers
Janette
16 November 2015 at 07:13 #47066yes, that last is really good advice.
I agree, a few posts like that show us the microcosm of society -as it is, no frills and no special ‘deletions’ -people do have a right to hate. And I despise censorship -but maybe, deep down, somewhere below the hypnosis line, there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to give people like this a fair voice -and that’s not a good thing. They need to be shown for who they are. It’s only just.
16 November 2015 at 09:25 #47077Yes, I quite agree -of course Kate would go alone. This was said in the scene prior when she said “normally I’d call in the military but obviously there’s no-one left to trust”
personally, I thought it bloomin obvious. What annoys me is that some people have this inane ability to think they are so wonderful that if something happens in script that they can’t explain then it must be wrong: “The writer is an idiot, the whole episode stinks and anyone who likes it is a fool, an intellectual invalid” -instead of they themselves missing something! Which suggests to me a problem with their own intelligence or simply just that -they’ve missed it and maybe two or three watches down the road, they’ll ‘get’ it. The ‘light bulb’ moment.
It seems apparent that this attitude exists mainly amongst some delinquent student groups who are 17 or 18 and, brandishing an ‘A’ in English, are budding DH Lawrence’s or David Hodge’s.
Grr.
16 November 2015 at 10:43 #47089@purofilion Actually I suspect they are dunces at English, hence their inability to read subtext or to grasp internal narrative logic. From my experience good English marks make one appreciate other’s writing rather than simply dismiss it as stupid. No more likely to be accounting students IMHO.
You are absolutely spot on in pointing out that those incapable of understanding blame it on the script writer and not their own intellectual failing. It really riles me too. What is even more ludicrous is they have the arrogance to go on line and argue that the script is incomprehensible when it is perfectly clear that other’s have no problem with it. Perhaps they think it is a case of “emperor’s new clothes” and they are the only ones honest enough to point it out.
Cheers
Janette
19 January 2016 at 09:25 #50238Just finsihed watching this for a second time, and all fell into place. I can be rather dense at times. *big grin*
I laughed out loud when the Doctor says that likes ‘to ponce about’ in the plane!
He is such a dag.
Cheers Missy.
8 March 2016 at 22:59 #51231I just saw “The Zygon Invasion”
Another strong episode. This kind of grotesque earth-alien episode reminds me alot the season 1-2, the years of Russel T.Davies…but in a good way of course.
Nice to see again the Zygon after the “Day of The Doctor”, cleaver way to reintroduce them…and Osgood!!
I loved the ending twist with the Zygon-Clara and the plain…awesome chliffhanger. I guess that Jenna Coleman has a lot of fun to play a evil Clara!
Nice to hear again the music theme of a lot of moment from “The Day Of The Doctor”…again..kneel before Murray Gold.
Now i can’t wait to see the second part this weekend.23 January 2022 at 12:00 #72844My quick impressions of The Zygon Invasion –
So we’ve had the [multiple] Doctors, and now we have (ta-daaah!) The Two Osgoods. Fascinating premise to base an episode on. Actually, we only have one Osgood now, because Missy killed one of them. But the remaining Osgood is obsessive and geeky enough to keep the faith. And then there were none…
By the way, Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, is absolutely – true! (Previously called Hot Springs).
Clara’s phone – ‘The Doctor – 127 missed calls’ (a bit like my phone, then)
So now, with a vague recollection of the ep from a year ago, I’m trying to spot the point at which Clara becomes a Zygon. Obviously I never suspected on first viewing. This time around, I think it’s right at the start, in the neighbours’ flat. But then when she walks out she calls the Doctor – “Did you – just call yourself Doctor Disco?” That is just so Clara. But then, the Zygons make perfect copies, so… The Zygon command polyp is gross. “Doctor, do you want to be alone with that thing?” That *is* Clara, 100% genuine.
I just can’t tell. ‘Clara’ is pumping Kate for information, or is that just the writers doing a convenient info dump? ‘Clara’ and Jac follow Sandeep’s ‘parents’ down the lift in Zygon HQ, which surely Clara wouldn’t do if she was already a Zygon. This might have been written by Peter Harness, but I think the Moff’s editing is all over it.
Zygon HQ with all the Zygon pods is marvellously creepy and slimy. Why are Zygons so – squishy? And – this has got to be the biggest plot twist ever – ‘Clara’ discovers herself in one of the Zygon pods. How did she not know? Maybe ZygonClara knew her original was in a pod somewhere, but not which one. Or maybe she was just relishing pulling a last surprise on Jac and the Unit troops. Somehow, with a trick of the lighting and camera angles, our Clara aka Bonnie has morphed into a ruthless villain. R.I.P. Jac, I was getting to like her.
Quite how she got from Lunnun to the white cliffs of Dover (?) on her little motorbike in time to shoot down the Doctor’s plane – maybe possible. The Doc’s plane was flying from somewhere around the Black Sea (very roughly) so, 2000 miles – say 5 hours. Lunnun to Dover, 70 miles, say 2 hours allowing for traffic. So, easily done! But wait! – the map Bonnie looked at in Unit HQ showed the Doc’s plane already over the middle of Belgium, so only 140 miles – 20 minutes – from Dover. Moral – don’t look at maps too closely! I won’t worry about how Bonnie could identify the ‘right’ aircraft, or hit it with a little shoulder-fired rocket.
But never mind, this was a ripping good episode!
17 June 2023 at 20:41 #74188The name and body of Osgood has now become a symbol of the Ceacefire and the peace between the zygons and humans.
As Missy killed one of the Osgoods Bonnie took her place (as she knew not to keep Clara’s face!).
19 June 2023 at 15:15 #74190That’s – an interesting theory. Think I’d need to re-watch the episode to form an opinion on it. (I should get to it in a week or two).
20 June 2023 at 14:46 #74193Thanks looking forward to it.
10 September 2023 at 12:31 #74391@rule1 Yes, I agree, Osgood x 2 is a symbol of the peace. Bonnie taking the dead Osgood’s place is actually at the end of The Zygon Inversion.
My thoughts of ~18 months ago are still pretty much unchanged after a repeat viewing. Clara was captured in the little boy’s flat (as was made explicit at the end of ‘Zygon Inversion’).
I thought the second ep of the two-parter was noticeably better, it had more of the Moff’s sparkle to it.
11 September 2023 at 09:03 #74393Have not watched the two parter for a while. Zygons are one of my favourite monsters, in part because Dr Who and the Zygons with Tom Baker and Elizabeth Sladden was the first episode I ever watched and because there is something very disturbing about shape shifters. You cannot ever be sure than anyone is who you think they are.
As to the revival of Osgood. Poor Moffat could never kill off a character. He specialised in stories where, “everyone lives”. Fans complain so he kills a character, fans complain even more so he revives her. (And a good thing too. Osgood is a great character and who better to show that the enemy may not be who we think it is.) I really do love the ending of this two parter. Dr Who is no longer a simple story of humans/good guys verses aliens/bad guys.
Cheers
Janette
And back to the podcast editing. right now I feel like Bernard trying to avoid doing his tax….
12 September 2023 at 03:46 #74395@janetteb One of the things I like most about Moffat (and I like a lot) is his everyone lives stories. Osgood is a great character and I am glad she lived, or did she?
I guess the Zygons are living with us now and I think 2 of them are my neighbours but if they keep those suckers and venom sacks to themselves I’m alright with it.
Keep on that podcast, you can do it!
stay safe
12 September 2023 at 10:57 #74396@janetteb @winston I also like the stories where ‘everyone lives’. As long as it’s not too predictable. For all the good characters, at least, I don’t much care about the villains. (Except Missy. Extraordinary writing by Moff and charisma by Michelle Gomez that could make everyone love a ruthless megalomaniac).
Of course this always raises a problem of how to get rid of time-expired Companions in suitably dramatic but non-terminal ways. Which has been managed with – varying degrees of success 😉
As to Osgood, is she really dead if a clone (if it is the clone) survives with her personality? One could argue that the dead Osgood would know, but of course the thing about being dead (unless one believes in life-after-death) is that one doesn’t know. This is getting distinctly metaphysical.
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