The Zygon Invasion
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Dentarthurdent 7 months, 1 week ago.
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4 November 2015 at 01:39 #46295
@lisa “So do we have anyone that wants to make a prediction about the Tardis blue Osgood Box?”
So here’s my theory from an earlier posting.
3) What’s in the Osgood Box?? Nothing. The box was left by the Doctor simply as a `security blanket’ for Unit and its political masters so they’d feel better about the Peace Treaty. The Doctor really wanted the humans and zygons to work things out rather than rely on some deux ex machina.
4 November 2015 at 01:50 #462964 November 2015 at 02:01 #46297@bluesqueakpip–
Alternatively, Inverness villages and the Fox Inn are packed with Zygon milkmaids
There’s an image I’m never getting out of my head.
I’m inclined to think @jphamlore is right that this particular story has something of a responsibility to ‘get it right’ in the second part. There was definitely a case to be made with Kill The Moon last year that it raised issues and then lacked the courage of its convictions to follow them through. Not sure it can afford to do that with this story. And I also agree that the absence of true leaders, of politicians and the like in this story is a dangerous oversight. I’ll be very interested just to see what they do on Saturday.
On the Doctor As Zygon theory. I’m not sold on it myself and think it’s probably not going to come to pass. Was just throwing it out there really. Besides which, my theories are never right.
On the whole ‘kill the traitors’ issue. I think it’s just as simple as the Zygon insurgents considering anyone that’s not them as a traitor, be they human or Zygon. In much the same way that Daesh consider law-abiding British Muslims etc to be as much traitors/infidels in their eyes as Westerners.
4 November 2015 at 02:06 #46298@countscarlioni Sorry I missed that post. Could be? It’s another paradox.
Probably just a device to give the Doctor the upper hand. I think it would be
interesting if it ends like the movie “They Live” but I doubt that will happen.When the Doctor was stroking the Zygon control panel on the screens around him the words
‘Sapphire’ popped up. I took that to mean it was the name of this UNIT operation? It
was pretty prominent. I don’t think its connected to the box. But it had me thinking.4 November 2015 at 02:27 #46299Anonymous @
well well well well!
This is a treat. Slept till midday people and read 56 posts.
OK. I am confused.
1stly, the Doctor noooo! Not a zygon. On the kids in the playground -it actually (on 3rd) watch was quite a gag which, typically, I thought was ‘off’ the first two times.
@arbutus has it right -as to who is a zygon? we don’t know and secondly @jphamlore and @jimthefish I still say ‘down with the elites’* but I have to agree -if they stuff up this 2 parter, there’s a lot to answer for. It’s been set up well and @bluesqueakpip was quite correct about the msg on the steps of the church -the second part said quite clearly. I think by the time the soldiers had gone in I was railing “you stupids” instead of listening to dialogue!
* who is an elite and who is a zygon? Lots of little parables at work. Almost too many to screw up 😉
4 November 2015 at 03:03 #46300Awesome. That would be very ‘who;’ very ‘Doctorish’ actually for it to be empty. I can imagine him shrugging as he tends to do.
On the whole ‘kill the traitors’ issue. I think it’s just as simple as the Zygon insurgents considering anyone that’s not them as a traitor, be they human or Zygon. In much the same way that Daesh consider law-abiding British Muslims etc to be as much traitors/infidels in their eyes as Westerners.
Yes, this could well be true. It’s interesting that in Brisbane, at least, it isn’t as much of a problem as other parts of Oz -here, all Muslims seem to co-exist happily and with ease and gentility (whatever that means but I typed it anyway)
@lisa another person who knows “They live” Amazing -I’d never heard of it till yesterday.
@blenkinsopthebrave I watched both versions of the Body Snatchers last night -the first is tighter and not as self indulgent as the second but the screamy plants are terrifying, particularly Don Sutherland’s ‘point and scream!’ – at the end, the camera almost goes down his trachea -gross alert!
4 November 2015 at 03:09 #46301Sapphire. Now that is really interesting. “Sapphire” was the name of a cutting edge movie about race relations in late 1950s London. The plot revolved around the murder of a young black woman who had been passing herself off as white. It was about both racism and the issue of denying your identity in order to fit in.
The parallels with the themes of this episode are obvious.
4 November 2015 at 03:26 #46302@lisa @blenkinsopthebrave @purofilion and fellow box theorists, I wondered if the Osgood Box was anything like a match to the box in The Day of the Doctor, but it seems not, though it’s hard to be sure. The box that was on the table in front of the Osgoods at the start of The Zygon Invasion does look a bit larger. Or is it simply the camera angle? I also found it hard to see any designs on the Osgood Box.
4 November 2015 at 03:42 #46303@countscarlioni They put out some pictures from next episode out today and 1 has
a very good look at the box. The shots don’t look very spoilery and are on the Doctor
Who news site.4 November 2015 at 03:45 #46304A minor point to note in passing also: the gravestone we saw must mark a cenotaph, not a grave with a body in it, since the Osgood zapped by Missy was reduced to a small pile of dust which would have been dispersed to the winds when the plane disintegrated.
You know, I had forgotten that the plane exploded. I remembered Missy killing Osgood, leaving a pile of ashes. I’d assumed they would have buried her ashes, but of course you are right; Osgood’s ashes would have been scattered, quite literally, when the presidential plane was destroyed.
4 November 2015 at 04:02 #46305Mind you, as I type this our two household cats are lying asleep at my feet, and I am not at all sure that they might not be zygons!
well, they’re cats, at least, and that means they’ll eat your face if you die! six of one, half-a-dozen of the other, lol…
and i agree with you, i don’t think the doctor has/is a duplicate. re: 5. He refers to himself in the third person–yes. But to what end? To alert the humans in the room that he is a zygon? Or is it, perhaps, simply that this is the way that Capaldi’s Doctor talks? i think he’s acting a bit more outlandishly for clara’s benefit. i think he suspects she’s been compromised, and is acting out of character, as she knows him, specifically to see if she will react as a duplicate would… which is, very calmly, and coolly, as if nothing unusual is going on! (though she did call him on the “doctor disco” line?)
or, the other thought i had about this, is that he may be adopting some of smithdoc’s wacky tendencies, because he knows something is going to happen to her, soon, and he’s trying, in his alien way, to deal with that (for himself and/or for her). if that makes sense? he’s deliberately being goofy, to make her smile, to keep her “last days” as positive as possible? she doesn’t know it’s coming, of course, but the actions are more for his benefit, anyway, i suspect, to ease him into his own grief when she’s gone…
and a related point, when he’s assigning the tasks (kate to america, himself to turmezistan, etc), zygon clara doesn’t argue at all, or insist on going with him, like she might have done. perhaps he found this an odd, un-clara-like behaviour, as well?
another point i noted in that scene, kate mentions that, apparently (unless i’m hearing it wrong) only the osgoods kept their living link after the events of ‘the day of the doctor.’ so, technically, there should be no kate zygon, anymore. (i also think the real kate survived the attack of the police woman zygon, so there should still only be human kate.)
jac? she just seems so consistently human throughout the episode, unlike zygon clara, who acts a bit stiff, and unemotional, as a duplicate might (to show us, the audience, who’s human and who’s not). but maybe i’m reading too much into that, as well?
4 November 2015 at 05:24 #46309Zygon alert ; my teenage boy, has suddenly become a recluse having failed several soccer try outs and his room smells! When I knock, he says “go away. I don’t wanna eat. Not even icecream” I think he’s a zygon and his suckers are all over the bed: OK. That came out weird.
I think you’re right about Kate- we don’t know who is who at this point and I think also that Clara, not arguing, not being particularly Clara-ish is probably being rather obvious to the Doctor so he is trying to pretend all is well. She just basically ‘stands there’ doesn’t she? Re-watching her in all the other earlier series, she was completely and utterly in our faces -rambling on, butting in, asking questions and saying anything that came to mind. Even when the Doctor left, you would think, to keep up appearances, that she’d do the ‘hug’ thing and the “you! You, be careful, OK?”
There was none of that. She really was acting like a clone to me -well, on 3rd watch, anyway. She simply appeared distant looking from Jaq, to Kate to the Doctor and back again. Her speech about “you’re middle aged, you always think the world is ending” was quite non-Clara -this girl who was so tender with Smith on Trenzalore as he was dying, who loves her new somewhat difficult Doctor and always speaks so lovingly of her mother (and her soufflés -the recipe, not the soufflé which is interesting when you think of the recipe that is Zygon Clara!) and particularly the love she shows her grandmother with whom she has a close relationship.
Still, Jaq knows none of this and I (the 1st time) didn’t realise there WAS a switch but just felt that Clara was disaffected -as occasionally might happen when one travels with the Doctor and feels like he’s affected your life specifically -her life with Danny anyway, although I suspect he would have met his gruesome end whether or not she was a companion.
But I do feel that Jaq seems a little incompetent a lot of the time? I recall this actress in so many medical shows etc -of recent times, Silent Witness and her ability to be calm and clever is so wonderful. She delivers her lines with exactitude and yet I feel that her appearances in Who have not demonstrated a clever, forward thinking UNIT officer. Having said that, and I’m sure @denvaldron would agree, UNIT wasn’t exactly smart ‘all of the time’. As @bluesqueakpip may have elaborated, if their weapons work, UNIT officers are amazed. 🙂
But yes @geoffers you’re right, Jaq is totally human all of the time -no sense of her being anything other than a confused, scared officer -so maybe they ramped up that confusion to show the distinct difference between the duplicate Clara which I might add, on rewatch, with the evil head shift and the scary eyes was a tad overdone. As was her walking into UNIT and calming tapping in the password digits and opening the door, looking right, very rigidly, with little human casual-ness (?) -we tend to slide, and look relaxed, twitching, scratching our ass, looking to the right and left and moving our heads if they’re tired etc – collecting the missile and doing what I call the “rigid, straight faced walk of the obvious -I’m a duplicate -baddie.”
Even standing out in the open and seeing the plane it was obvious – in the trailer, to me -bagels in all the land, remember? 🙂 that she was anything but human.
I just wish Clara hadn’t been quite so evil looking is all.
4 November 2015 at 05:59 #46314@lisa Thanks for the tip on the picture of the box! I just posted something on this image in BBC Approved Spoilers.
4 November 2015 at 06:46 #46317“Amazing grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.”does anyone have any thoughts about the significance (or lack thereof) of the tune the doctor’s playing, when osgood’s message comes through on the tardis console? i can’t remember if it’s been referenced in this thread, yet…
4 November 2015 at 08:36 #46320also, how good is the writing, when there are still little bits that are making themselves known, even upon a fourth watch (or, how dim and/or slow am i in picking up on this stuff, lol)?!
like this, in osgood’s conversation with the doctor aboard the presidential plane: “my sister and i were the living embodiment of the peace we made. i would give all the lives i have to protect it.” i initially thought she said “all the LIES,” as in, i would lie to the ends of the world to keep the peace. but now i keep hearing “lives.” so, if this is normal, human osgood, that makes no sense. she only has one life, like every other normal human. (yes, i have to specify “normal” because… well, because moffat!)
so, this leads me to believe that this is, indeed, zygon osgood, who keeps her human form in memory of her sister, and in service to the cause of peace between zygons and humans. perhaps the other “lives” she’s implying are other humans she may have impersonated at some point?
i’m loving this episode more and more, for the many layers that are being revealed. and despite the misgivings i have about the hand-held camera stuff i don’t like. i call it “shaky cam,” and first noticed/hated it when it was used too heavily for the revival of ‘battlestar galactica,’ to which this episode, seemingly, pays homage (as referenced by others here)…
4 November 2015 at 08:47 #46321On the actions of the troops outside the church. Remember that soldiers are people, and not killing machines- killing is not something they want to do. Yet here they are, being put in the position of killing in cold blood a group of what are, for all appearances, unarmed civilians, let alone the fact that they all look like their most cherished loved ones. The reality that they are obviously Zygons is not going to make that any easier (and even in the knowledge that they are Zygons, they are currently defenseless Zygons in that state). The ‘mother’ tells them that she’s a hostage- technically possible, since they know hostages have been brought here from the other side of the world- and says that they have proof. None of this is really plausible or logical, but this is not something that they are comfortable with going through with, it feels like doing something against the core of their being, and any doubt is going to be amplified beyond logic. Once their commander buckles, they rest of them follow because they now have their excuse. Of course, yes, the majority of the soldiers should’ve taken all but one of the Zygons hostage, while the ‘mother’ and a few soldiers went inside to see the proof, with weapons trained on hostages at all times. But there you go.
@purofilion
eer huh? I thought it was stated that they needed to keep a human only to keep information -or ongoing info from it -as per the statement that Osgood(s) said. If not, then I can only conclude I am confused 🙂
Yes, that’s true as I understand it, but it doesn’t apply to what I was saying. They say that a new ability in this episode is the ability to take the form of someone from a person’s memory. No capturing involved. The Zygon takes the form of the mother not because the mother is locked away in a pod somewhere, but because it’s taking the image from the mind of the soldier in the here and now. Hence my query.
Here’s my evidence almost everyone in The Zygon Invasion is operating on a pretext.
Before she goes back to her apartment where she is captured by the Zygons, Clara refuses to answer her phone and also is wearing red lipstick, makeup something the Doctor has asked about before as to why she painted her face before a date with Danny. Clara deliberately made herself seem suspicious to the Doctor.I don’t know about this. Clara didn’t refuse to answer her phone- when she looked at it in the stairwell, that’s the first time she saw the missed calls. She have have been out of reception, or busy, or whatever, and then riding her motorcycle. The Doctor strikes me as sometimes being needy towards Clara- I can imagine him making a lot of calls in a short space of time. The makeup is surely a matter of the production team wanting that look for evil Clara, and therefore it had to be on real Clara beforehand.
I agree that Kate in Truth or Consequences is probably a ruse of some kind, just because the lack of backup is so absurd and has been signposted so clearly.
But I’d be careful here, if you don’t like the episode then that’s obviously fair, but going out of your way to assure yourself that everything that happened must surely have been a trick, because then it would be good, is setting yourself for gigantic disappointment if things don’t happen as you predict (and I suspect they won’t). To me, a revelation that everything was a trick to the extent you were saying, and that UNIT and the Doctor were on top all along, would feel extremely cheap and make this episode feel meaningless. Indeed, Moffat’s bait-and-switches do sometimes have that effect- like the apparent revelation that everything the Doctor did in Magician’s Apprentice/Witch’s Familiar was a ruse.
What’s in the Osgood Box?? Nothing. The box was left by the Doctor simply as a `security blanket’ for Unit and its political masters so they’d feel better about the Peace Treaty.
Agreed.
does anyone have any thoughts about the significance (or lack thereof) of the tune the doctor’s playing, when osgood’s message comes through on the tardis console?
I did wonder about that, but didn’t come up with anything.
4 November 2015 at 09:04 #46324Also, prediction for the second part: the ‘taking the form of someone from a person’s memory’ has not yet had it’s full payoff. In a confrontation between a rebel Zygon and Osgood, who’s heavily invested in this, the Zygon will take the form of the Osgood that died. Emotions will ensue.
Less likely, a Zygon will do the same thing to the Doctor or human Clara, but I can’t think of any characters that would be all that relevant to the situation at hand, and taking the form of any such character would feel cheap due to its falsehood and short appearance. Still, you never, we could have Zygon Susan.
4 November 2015 at 09:19 #46325@supernumerary: To me the real problem UNIT, the elder Zygons, and the Doctor are having is the younger rebel Zygons are in the right. It appears that humans, admittedly ignorant, started the killing in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, of “Brits,” before it was even known some could be monsters. The younger Zygons were simply transported to strange locations with no money or jobs or support other than what they could provide for themselves. The younger rebel Zygons movement is strong because they have a method of concealment, they potentially have large numbers, they have the energy of youth, and they believe they are in the right, strong enough apparently to be willing to give their lives for their cause.
At some point the leaders such as the Doctor, Osgood, and Kate Stewart, and probably the elder Zygons, are going to have to resolve the situation by intelligence and perhaps persuasion, not brute force. There’s also what seems to me to be an obvious deduction that simply stranding Kate Stewart in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, away from where the apparent action may be where the Doctor is located, would not make for a great resolution of the story.
4 November 2015 at 10:24 #46326Info from the bbcamerica/anglophenia site – Dr Funkenstein comes from a 1973 album titled The Clones of Dr Funkenstein. So, if the Doctor is Dr Funkenstein, who are his clones? I’m sure someone else has already picked up on this. It just makes me think he has a plan, and it involves willing zygons duplicating key players.
4 November 2015 at 10:47 #46329like this, in osgood’s conversation with the doctor aboard the presidential plane: “my sister and i were the living embodiment of the peace we made. i would give all the lives i have to protect it.” i initially thought she said “all the LIES,” as in, i would lie to the ends of the world to keep the peace. but now i keep hearing “lives.” so, if this is normal, human osgood, that makes no sense. she only has one life, like every other normal human. (yes, i have to specify “normal” because… well, because moffat!)
Oh that’s interesting yes. Well spotted. I’m having difficulty following what a zygon can/can’t do..
But maybe with Osgood the original is still alive. It would make absolute sense to keep her alive and use zygon replicates as much as possible. So in this sense there maybe or has been several zygon replicates. Makes no sense to kill off Osgood considering she is so crucial either way to rebel zygons or peace zygons.
Therefore I’m now convinced Osgood who was killed by Missy was a Zygon.
I think part of the contingency plan by doctor and Unit has been to make sure there are/allow zygon versions of key characters. The reason being Unit would have to consider the different potential ‘fall outs’ of a Zygon rebellion. By implementing a zygon version of doctor etc we can see how potential fallouts my occur..
We haven’t seen presidents/etc because this is a contained breach within zygon population. As someone posted earlier most here are possibly zygons with only Osgood being original.
We we will see the originals save the day.
Nightmare scenario alerted the doctor that zygon versions were being compromised.
Just thoughts.. I’m not entirely convinced of this myself..
4 November 2015 at 10:55 #46330Sorry not sure any of that works in the storyline.. But was just thinking ‘nightmare scenario’ is just that..
scenario – a setting/scene which is artificial in a sense..
4 November 2015 at 11:51 #46331Maybe completely way off here..
That’s not the original Clara in the egg thing. They are producing replicas human/zygons – experimenting? So they don’t have to use an original?
Guessing I need to watch it again. My thoughts are all of a bit of a mess!
I still feel it is only Osgood (main characters) that is original.
4 November 2015 at 12:19 #46332It’s only a digression. Do you remember Rita from God Complex? She was a nurse and a devoted Muslim and she believed that the hotel was Jannaham, the Muslim hell. There’s this scene when she’s saying that to the Doctor and he answers her ‘Oh, you are a Muslim'(or something like that) with a smile on his face. She was a very nice character. Good-natured, intelligent, very brave and maybe the most important, very likable. If I were in a hospital I would like her to be my nurse.
@mudlark @purofilion
You misundersood me. I meant that I feel more involved because I live closer. This conversation went in a wrong direction and I feel a little bit ashamed now.
4 November 2015 at 12:30 #46333Also to add the whole episode felt odd. Initially I didn’t enjoy it. Felt it was messy.
But perhaps now it was odd because it was meant to be out of character with so much zygon influence.
I’m going to watch it again with this in mind.
4 November 2015 at 12:42 #46334That’s not the original Clara in the egg thing. They are producing replicas human/zygons – experimenting? So they don’t have to use an original?
So the Zygons could be the makers of the Claricles…?
4 November 2015 at 12:48 #463354 November 2015 at 13:18 #46336@mersey —
You absolutely shouldn’t feel ashamed. Your misgivings are absolutely valid. That some don’t share them, or at least not to same level, is neither here nor there really….
The important thing is that we all feel able to talk about them.
4 November 2015 at 14:54 #46338<p style=”text-align: left;”>@pedant</p>
Is it not possible to have several zygon/human versions of a human? Given they can do one version what stops another zycon replicating the same human?As I said struggling with what zygon can and can’t do.. Apologies!
4 November 2015 at 16:02 #46339Well, as far as I know, it’s not been ruled out – so it’s possible! 😉
4 November 2015 at 16:32 #46342Well if as geoffers pointed out Osgood said ‘I would give all the lives I had’ then it seems it must be part of the evolution of the zygons. Unless of course the Osgood (zygon?) is referring to other humans copied lives she has duplicated?
Osgood must be a zygon then.. Aargh.
Their must be a few Osgoods. The original has been safe guarded by Unit a while ago.. As part of the peace deal Osgood is key.
4 November 2015 at 17:51 #46343What is in the Osgood box?
What the viewer has been shown at the beginning is the three Doctors with their sonic screwdrivers shooting a memory editing device UNIT had in the Black Archive to temporarily erase from humans and Zygons imitating humans enough memories so they did not know who was human and who was Zygon. This technology earlier helped create the conditions for the first peace; therefore, I speculate an upgraded version of it is the last sanction, the last hope.
But the box seems too small to affect the entire world. How convenient the episode also shows a Zygon control room that apparently can affect all Zygons.
And that is why an essential part of the Doctor is the role of tarot card of The Devil:
http://www.tarotlore.com/tarot-cards/the-devil/
It’s an interesting interpretation to change the altar The Devil is sitting on to be the Osgood box.
There’s always the temptation The Devil offers to eat of the Tree of Knowledge first, before the Tree of Life. The Doctor cannot impose a solution, he must trick people to impose the solution upon themselves.
4 November 2015 at 19:26 #46348I wonder if there’s any significance to the fact that we had the Nightmare Scenario right on the heels of the Knightmare herself.
4 November 2015 at 19:46 #46350DrBen Yes, think it was significant. The Knightmare was a thief and the
nightmare scenario is broadly a rebel faction wanting to steal the planet.
So my thinking is in ‘Face the Raven’ some entity/person/thing will try to
commit theft. Maybe robbing Clara which might also involve hybridizing
and creating a nightmare for the Doctor to cope with?4 November 2015 at 19:47 #46351@BrBen previous post 🙂
4 November 2015 at 19:48 #463524 November 2015 at 19:59 #46353If you see a mistake you want to correct, there is an EDIT link on the right-hand side of your post, next to the number. It stays active for about 4-5 minutes after you post. It has saved me on numerous occasions!
4 November 2015 at 20:06 #46354@blenkinsopthebrave I totally missed that! Thanks tons and acres because
I sure do need it 🙂4 November 2015 at 20:54 #46355I am having trouble working out the full significance of “Amazing Grace” being played, unless it is a reference to Clara saving him.
Could “no dogs” (re-inforced by the sound of barking) be an indication that some of the Zygons have taken on the form of dogs (as in dogs are a man’s best friend)?
Bonnie/Clara’s assessment of Unit having being ‘neutralised’ (horrible Department of Defense (sic) (euphamism) isn’t necessary the true situation (I suspect that the first wave of Zygons were given employment as members of UNIT) and I await to see the how the consequences resolve!!!
4 November 2015 at 21:20 #46357@steve-thorp: I interpret Amazing Grace as saying if one has faith in a higher moral calling, one will enter into a state of grace and obtain salvation. The Doctor is struggling with whether he is a good man and how should he stay on a high moral path.
It is appropriate when Osgood calls him that Amazing Grace plays because there was a time, Day of the Doctor, where Osgood regarded the Doctor as almost her Deity, literally praying to him repeatedly to save her.
Finally Osgood now represents the peace which is the new god humans and Zygons should have faith in and thus obtain grace and salvation.
4 November 2015 at 21:35 #46358One thing that I have not seen disussed yet.
If zygons take on human form, they will surely be able to mate and reproduce with humans.
What will be the status of their offspring?
Bonkers Theory:
Could the hybrid offspring of humans and zygons (with the ability of the zygons to take on the form of other life forms evolving into regeneration) be the progenitors of the time lords?
The wine is going down (too) well tonight!
4 November 2015 at 21:52 #46360<span class=”useratname”>@jphamlore</span>
Oops
I should of realised this
Obviously, my brain tumour and it’s subsequent removal are still having some consequences.
One last daft thought:
truth and consequenes = T&C = terms and conditions.
The original song, I believe was written by an ex-captain of a slave ship.
4 November 2015 at 22:01 #46361@jphamlore @blenkinsopthebrave
Great ideas! I’m inclined to think of Clara being a hybrid with some Zygon
in her and that she has been picking up lots of little bits of hybrid-ish
features going back to SmithDoc starting with the time stream and then the
hacking talents and so on. So my question now is what all these powers are
leading up to? I think she is going to morph into something new possibly using
the Zygon gift for becoming another life form but also not sure that will turn
out so well. Also, I wonder if she chooses to morph to escape death and it doesn’t
go well then becomes trapped into a new way of existing?4 November 2015 at 22:25 #46362I am having trouble working out the full significance of “Amazing Grace” being played, unless it is a reference to Clara saving him.
Ummm… Steven Moffat has been on an Alpha course? 😈
I’ve been making that joke since last year; but he does seem to be very interested in addressing the question of whether death is actually The End, or whether the reason there’s such a longstanding human conviction that it isn’t is because … it isn’t.
I’d say the most important thing about John Newton, who wrote the lyrics, is that he was a complete bastard (who later learnt not to be a complete bastard). He was a slave trader, who got caught in a storm and asked God to save him. When God did, he converted to Christianity and wrote the famous first verse:
Amazing Grace/How sweet the sound/That saved a wretch like me/ I once was lost, but now am found/Was blind, but now I see.
The last line was distinctly optimistic. 🙂 He didn’t write the other verses until about 25 years later, by which time he’d stopped being a slave trader, become a priest, and needed something in a hurry for a sermon.
I’d say the possible linkages to Who are: the song is by a complete bastard who found redemption. A slave trader who became one of the important people in the Abolition movement. The enemy inside the friend, the friend inside the enemy, the hardworking parish priest and abolitionist who was hiding inside the cynical and dissolute slave trader.
Can monsters find redemption? Can the Zygons change? According to Amazing Grace (and the life of its writer), the answer is ‘yes’. It would also link to the life of the Doctor. If he is the complete bastard who did/did not murder billions of children, can he find redemption? Can he change? Again, the answer’s ‘yes’.
Another linkage would be to the ongoing question of ‘life after death’. If all the ‘mayflies’ die, is that really the end of them? Amazing Grace (especially verses 3 to 7) is a very strong statement of faith that it’s not.
Which is yet another possible linkage: Amazing Grace’s strong statement of faith in an afterlife makes it an incredibly popular funeral hymn. If the Doctor knows Clara is going to die soon, that might be another reason for him to be playing it.
And finally – New Britain, the tune for Amazing Grace, is out of copyright and requires no royalties. That might be a very important point. 😀
4 November 2015 at 22:25 #46363travelling for work (itd sound glamourous but aint!) but thought I’d play to the gallery with this:
4 November 2015 at 23:30 #46366@Supernumerary
slaps face! Of course, I forgot about that! they take a mind photo and therefore all the info is in there.
Got it.
4 November 2015 at 23:42 #463675 November 2015 at 11:20 #46394you are always so eloquent, and learn-ed, in your posts… 🙂
Can monsters find redemption? Can the Zygons change? According to Amazing Grace (and the life of its writer), the answer is ‘yes’.
in the context of the remaining osgood reaching out to the doctor for help, as he’s playing that tune, it makes me more convinced that it’s the zygon osgood, who was evil, but became good through her relationship with her human sister. and is committed to maintaining the peace, in her memory…
5 November 2015 at 18:03 #46397Hello All! Very late to the party and lots of catching up to do. Here’s a few quick first thoughts:
Amazing Grace: maybe he was just thinking about his TV movie companion. Ok, we’ll forget that one!
Doctor as Zygon – anti: “Doctor Disco” is his arranged code with Clara so she’ll know it’s really him. Likewise when she doesn’t recognize it he knows it’s not really her.
Doctor as Zygon – pro: how uncharacteristic is it of him to start a sentence “My name is…” before backing up and saying “I’m called The Doctor”?
5 November 2015 at 20:21 #46398And here is a totally bonkers explanation for what Osgood’s box is: In the clip shown at the beginning of the episode, we see a nuclear device about to detonate whose purpose was to destroy the Black Archive, even at the cost of the lives of everyone in London, to save the world.
As it happens, the Doctor has never approved of the existence of Black Archives or their equivalent whether it be Torchwood or UNIT who are hoarding those items.
What if the Osgood box were simply a device to neutralize every single item in the Black Archive. Then the Doctor could tell UNIT, better surrender to the Zygons because you’re defenseless. UNIT is forced to unconditionally surrender on behalf of humans and then the older Zygons take back control as there is no longer any reason for war . That is one way to stop a war before it even begins.
So the whole two-parter is simply the Doctor achieving what he really wanted, the destruction of the Black Archive. He is after all the tarot card of The Devil. And this brings back real edge in the relationship between UNIT and the Doctor, and humans and the Doctor.
5 November 2015 at 21:22 #46399it’s the zygon osgood
Having it be the Zygon Osgood makes considerably more sense thematically. It’s what I’d call the more interesting choice.
For one thing, that would mean Missy killed someone the audience really did care about; and Zygon Osgood becomes equally an audience substitute. She’s just as upset about Osgood’s death as the audience. Her determination to have the treaty that Osgood was so invested in survive is something the audience would sympathise with. That Zygons can see a human they’ve duplicated as a ‘sister’ also makes the shape-changing double act less unambiguously evil. If Zygons can regard their duplicated original with the same love and devotion that an identical twin can give their twin, it becomes much less sinister.
But if Osgood is human Osgood, then Missy killed someone the audience barely knew, and Osgood is behaving exactly the way we’d expect her to do.
Clues that Osgood is probably the Zygon? Well, Zygons can maintain a shape as long as the loved one survives in the memory – so Zygon Osgood has to keep her dead ‘sister’ constantly in her mind to remain Osgood. We’ve been told that Osgood went a little crazy after her sister’s death – which would fit very well with a Zygon desperately trying to maintain the Osgood form. She talked about ‘lives’ rather than ‘life’. When the Doctor told Osgood she had to be human (and if the Eighth Doctor audio’s are canon, he knows she doesn’t have to be) she corrected him. She went ‘rogue’ from UNIT – which suggests someone who knows more about the Zygons than UNIT do.
There’s another reason I’d go for ‘Zygon Osgood’. If it were Human Osgood who died, then her death becomes another exploration of ‘Is death the end?’ Because even if Osgood’s personal existence/identity came to an end, her influence hasn’t died. While Zygon Osgood maintains her shape, her memory hasn’t died. And if the reason Zygon Osgood is fighting to the death to maintain the treaty is her sister’s death, then Osgood might just manage to change the world – after her own death.
So yeah. We’ll have to see. But I reckon this Osgood is a Zygon. And if she isn’t, she should have been. 😉
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