BBC Approved Spoilers

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

BBC Trailer

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave thanks for sharing that. Oh dear. Gallifrey has become a narrative football.

Cheers

Janette

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb

Hmmm, Narrative football indeed. As I said on another thread, RTD has a lot to pack into the finale.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

Thanks for the trailer

This morning, having some time to spare while waiting to leave for a hospital appointment, I amused myself by going through the video the equivalent of frame by frame, with subtitles on so that I could link dialogue to images. This is what I noted.

1. Reprise of falling balcony with Doctor.

Rani. (OC) : ‘Omega. With his body I can construct a new Gallifrey’ 

(Note: Does Omega have any say in the matter? Anyway, I seem to remember that after his sojourn in a black hole his body wasn’t exactly in great shape, and it’s condition wouldn’t have been improved when the black hole was retro-engineered into a new star).

Accompanying visuals:

2. Interior of  bone palace with shimmery energy (?) waves.

3. Blurry view of what looks like a very large furry paw emerging round the edge of a door

4: Same view with vertical rift alongside, revealing a very bright light

5: View from height of London, still apparently intact – or at least partially so, with tallest buildings including UNIT HQ still standing plus stalking giant skeletons.

6: Rani, still talking, in what looks like a conventional lab or control centre, not the bone palace

7: Scene of ongoing destructive mayhem with, in foreground, what looks something like a giant safe with display reading (as far as I could make it out) Z.A.π 1 . Man in helmet and body armour standing alongside.

Belinda: ‘My battle is here, saving my daughter’

Accompanying visuals

9: Close up of Bel, fully dressed (not in dressing gown as last seen), with out of focus grey haired woman (not Rani 1) in background

10: Bel holding Poppy, both fully dressed, in something like a lift compartment walled with textured gold octagonal panels.

11: Both Ranis in close up, looking concerned.

12: Seal of Rassilon in close up

13: High level view of London again, still apparently intact and with stalking skeletons, but with a vertical feature, like a narrow pillar of smoke or a somewhat wonky tornado funnel

14: Col. Ibrahim and Kate in close up, looking left

15: Close up of Ibrahim yelling or screaming

16: View from UNIT platform of exploding dino skeleton.

If this is of any use, feel free to speculate.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@mudlark

The one thing I found slightly disorienting was when Belinda tells the Rani (after turning her head to look at the Rani): “My battle is in there, saving my daughter”. And the next shot is of Belinda holding Poppy in the gold  coloured box. It gave me the impression that Belinda was both outside the box and inside the box.

p.s. I hope your hospital appointment went smoothly. I find fare too many of them in my calendar these days.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

You’ve prompted me to go back for another look. In scene 9, which directly follows scene 7 with the giant safe or secure container ( I seem to have missed out 8 in the reckoning), it isn’t actually clear who Belinda is speaking to, but there is no indication that it is the Rani and the setting does not seem to be the bone palace. She is in close up, looking  towards us and then turning to her right. Then the scene cuts directly to that of her with Poppy in the gold box.

On second examination I realise that I somewhat compressed and simplified the scene with the safe/container. The setting appears to be some kind of workshop, with people in the background who appear to be operating welding equipment. The man in body armour alongside the box is actually running towards us, and behind him is another person who looks to be examining the box, On the other side of the box is someone else kneeling, possibly doing something to it. I think I probably misread the display on the box; it could equally read Z.A.A1 rather than Z.A.π1. No sign of Ω, though I did look carefully.

The reason for the hospital visit was nothing very serious, thanks,  just a check up to see whether some minor surgery was warranted and to book me in for same – in and out in half an hour with almost no waiting, but the local hospital, about four miles from where I live, is a University teaching hospital and they are generally very efficient in my experience.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave

You’ve prompted me to go back for another look. In scene 9, which directly follows scene 7 with the giant safe or secure container ( I seem to have missed out 8 in the reckoning), it isn’t actually clear who Belinda is speaking to, but there is no indication that it is the Rani and the setting does not seem to be the bone palace. She is in close up, looking  towards us and then turning to her right. Then the scene cuts directly to that of her with Poppy in the gold box.

On second examination I realise that I somewhat compressed and simplified the scene with the safe/container. The setting appears to be some kind of workshop, with people in the background who appear to be operating welding equipment. The man in body armour alongside the box is actually running towards us, and behind him is another person who looks to be examining the box, On the other side of the box is someone else kneeling, possibly doing something to it. I think I probably misread the display on the box; it could equally read Z.A.A1 rather than Z.A.π1. No sign of Ω, though I did look carefully.

The reason for the hospital visit was nothing very serious, thanks,  just a check up to see whether some minor surgery was warranted and to book me in for same – in and out in half an hour with almost no waiting, but the local hospital, about four miles from where I live, is a University teaching hospital and they are generally very efficient in my experience.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Sorry about the double post, I’ve no idea how that happened and I logged out before I realised, so too late to delete one of them.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

ZA theta 1

or

ZA 01… ie a countdown, nearly ended.

I was looking for sigma, as in sigma theta.

zeta alpha theta 1?

Zap1??

Or a Gallifreyan fraternity on double secret probation? Perhaps it’s bigger than that… on the inside. But who is Pinto and Flounder?? Toga! Toga!

Animal House… but you knew that…

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

On reflection I think my first reading of the display was correct, except that I transcribed it wrongly, so it should have read,  in all Greek capitals,  Z.A.Π Ι –  Zeta Alpha Pi Iota. The Time Lords did at one time seem keen on using Greek letters (hence Omega Ω), so some kind of Gallifreyan secret organisation seems a distinct possibility.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u  @blenkinsopthebrave

As an afterthought I have just checked on the Secure Container Cube used to confine the Screech in Lucky Day, and it bears a distinct, though not exact similarity to the Giant container in the trailer. So container for the big O Ω ?

I also made a slight error in my transcription of what Belinda said, it should have been ‘My battle is in there, saving my daughter’. So is the gold box a kind of stasis cube, preserving reality while chaos reigns all round?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave

It’s a sub canon thing that The Doctor was once known as Sigma Theta or ‘Thete’.

But it ain’t sigma, it’s zeta. Zeta and theta have connections with various number theories and functions, especially Riemann surfaces which form the basis of fractal theory.

But that’s me talking, so a lot of the last paragraph could be wrong.

Iota is associated with the internet of things & AI.

Discuss.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I used to wonder sometimes how, when and why the Time Lords adopted the Greek alphabet – it clearly wasn’t for the purpose of writing. Maybe the TLs were behind the Athenian Golden Age of philosophy and proto-science, then some of them thought the system of writing cute and began using it as a kind of affectation. But if so, what were they doing meddling in ancient Greece in the first place, when such things were supposed to be strictly verboten?

All idle musing anyway, because I very much doubt it ever occurred to the writers that they needed any rationale.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@mudlark</p>
unless they taught the Greeks how to write… after the Greeks gave up on linear B. And you need an extra head to read Gallifreyan. So, better to rip a phonetic script off the Phoenicians.

All I can say is, when Delta Tau Chi turn up, the Universe runs out of alcohol. And Villengard share values drop. But V’ernon Wormer has their number. And a cucumber in the fridge.

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

unless they taught the Greeks how to write

Possible of course, if we assume that they were responsible for all systems of phonetic script in the eastern Mediterranean region and the naming of Hebrew letters as well, but I think that might involve some chronological juggling

As for the rest, if Time Lords had fraternities I’m sure they were devoted entirely to pure and high-minded living, and would have sicced the Division on the likes of Delta Tau Chi 😀

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

unless they taught the Greeks how to write

Possible of course, if we assume that they were responsible for all systems of phonetic script in the eastern Mediterranean region and the naming of Hebrew letters as well, but I think that might involve some chronological juggling

As for the rest, if Time Lords had fraternities I’m sure they were devoted entirely to pure and high-minded living, and would have sicced the Division on the likes of Delta Tau Chi 😀

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Sorry! another double post and again I don’t know how it happened or how to correct it

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@mudlark – you’re bigenerating 😀

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@scaryb

I would happily bigenerate if my alter ego didn’t inherit my arthritic spine 🙂

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark

An excellent breakdown of the trailer. Alas, I can’t think what these clues may lead us to.

I wondered if the Bone Palace was the Rani’s Tardis. Also, I couldn’t figure out why those giant skeletons were present (for in-story reasons I mean*)

It seems strange to have something so anachronistic present in a world where doubt is an arrestable offence.

*I think RTD thought they looked cool and had the Disney money to realise his vision.

@blenkinsopthebrave

It gave me the impression that Belinda was both outside the box and inside the box.

Schrodinger’s Belinda.

@scaryb

you’re bigenerating

Hahaha. 🤣

@ps1l0v3y0u

Iota is associated with the internet of things & AI.

This is interesting, but I’m not sure what to make of it.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar

Bone Dinosaurs… if this is a VR, could this be a reference to the end of Mark of The Rani?

Zeta, Theta and Iota could be about the creation of VR. Alpha may be related to ordinal numbers… that is infinite sets… bumping up against the edge of a VR universe might be quite jarring. Best avoided.

Is there a mathematician in the house?

Otherwise, I really hope we don’t get Peter Davison, but I suppose it’s a possibility.

I read somewhere that the season ender is supposed to explain something about bigeneration.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

 I wondered if the Bone Palace was the Rani’s Tardis. Also, I couldn’t figure out why those giant skeletons were present (for in-story reasons I mean*)

It seems strange to have something so anachronistic present in a world where doubt is an arrestable  offence.

The Rani’s Tardis does seem the most likely explanation for the bone palace, and the fact that it is parked in mid air has precedent, cf. the eleventh Doctors Tardis when he was brooding over his losses. Given that the Wish World is designed ultimately to fail, the fact that the bony and insubstantial dinosaurs (VR?) are such an anomaly may be the point; a way of testing peoples acceptance of the illusion and at the same time prompting doubts and questions.

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

My Friday prediction for tomorrow’s episode:

As “The Three Doctors” required all 3 Doctors (Hartnell, Troughton and Pertwee) to defeat Omega, RTD2 decides to spend his Disney budget by finding a way to have all 15 Doctors present to defeat the Rani and banish Omega. And at the conclusion all 15 Doctors form a conga line, waving to the audience as they ascend to the own individual Tardis.

Nah…at the last minute in the writer’s room RTD2 decides that would be too subtle.

 

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

@mudlark

Given that the Wish World is designed ultimately to fail, the fact that the bony and insubstantial dinosaurs (VR?) are such an anomaly may be the point; a way of testing peoples acceptance of the illusion and at the same time prompting doubts and questions

My understanding was that it was the Doctor’s doubts specifically that were required, as his doubts are somehow so powerful they can destroy the Wish World and the connection to the Underverse. This might explain why there were giant skeletons over London – as a way to snap the Doctor out of his illusions, as it were.

And, so, until this happened they had to keep the world going. This may explain why the humans were being arrested – the Rani couldn’t afford for the Wish World to disappear by any other means than the Doctor’s doubt as, presumably, the doubt of the entire human population wouldn’t also shatter the boundary to the Underverse.

That’s the best explanation I can come up with.

I think it would have been more powerful if RTD had structured the episode like Groundhog Day, and showing the Doctor gain an increasing awareness of where he was (and how he got there would also be nice). I think this would have given the episode more dramatic impact than what was, essentially, around 45 minutes of exposition.

@ps1l0v3y0u

I really hope we don’t get Peter Davison

Hard agree from me.

@blenkinsopthebrave

And at the conclusion all 15 Doctors form a conga line, waving to the audience as they ascend to the own individual Tardis

Hahaha. I quite like to see it however.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

My understanding was that it was the Doctor’s doubts specifically that were required, as his doubts are somehow so powerful they can destroy the Wish World and the connection to the Underverse.

That is what the lady said, certainly, and it would be typically arrogant of  her  to assume that. Maybe she was telling the truth, and the doubts of an old and much travelled Time Lord were indeed the added ingredient necessary to both shatter the illusion of the wish world *and* break through to the underverse, but I like to think that this might be a cover story, that the power web woven by the vindicator was enough in itself to achieve her ends,and she just wanted to arrange matters so that the only other known surviving Time Lord was present to witness her triumph.

Alternative explanations for the stalking skeletons:

a) They were bony guards protecting the bone palace

b) They had no real purpose at all and were just a conceit of Conrad’s, whose inner child was still fascinated by dinosaur skeletons.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @whohar @blenkinsopthebrave

Omega House. Delta waves… this COULD actually be based on Animal House!??

15 and Ruby duet on ‘Shout’; 14 communes with miniature spectral forms of Ruth and Swarm. Clara and Cherry dance with Ruby and Belinda’s dates. Conrad falls off a ladder…

no no no I can’t go on!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@whohar

I think it would have been more powerful if RTD had structured the episode like Groundhog Day, and showing the Doctor gain an increasing awareness of where he was (and how he got there would also be nice). I think this would have given the episode more dramatic impact than what was, essentially, around 45 minutes of exposition.

I agree; not only would that have been structurally and dramatically more satisfactory, but for me, having the Doctor’s belief sustained until the last, and the Rani having to work quite hard to snap him out of it, made the idea that his doubt was crucial to the success of the plan somehow less convincing. Presumably the opposite was intended; the strength of his belief was supposed to indicate the power of his eventual disbelief, and I’ve just been having problems suspending my disbelief 😈

[syzygy @thane16]

At the end of the last episode, it was interesting to hear Carol of The Bells once more…..

[syzygy @thane16]

in harmonic idiom, at least, and in a more capricious and transcendent variation where chains of suspensions renew tension.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Love this idea from @blenkinsopthebrave

And at the conclusion all 15 Doctors form a conga line, waving to the audience as they ascend to the own individual Tardis.

😀 😀 😀

Maybe a bit too low key for RTD2 tho.

@thane16 Always love how you pick up on musical cues

Re doubts – I think the Rani says that it’s the Vindicator which creates the world, feeding off Conrad’s fantasies. The Vindicator is closely associated with GatwaDoc so does that explain why it’s the Doctor’s doubts which are especially needed – everyone else is just “padding” – in fact, MAYBE everyone else doesn’t exist in the Doctor’s “dreamworld” – it gets populated with characters from his memories.  A fantasy world for one person only.

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