Face The Raven

[MissRori @missrori]

@jimthefish, Talk about sympathy for the devil!  😀

It will be interesting to see where it goes.  Maybe Gallifrey is done and dusted, though already the Titan comics are playing with it in “Supremacy of the Cybermen”.  Maybe it’s not the real Promised Land and it’s something, someplace else where the Doctor will finally find peace…

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@missrori–

I’ve not read Supremacy yet but I’ve largely heard good things about it. Think I’ll wait for the inevitable TP.

As to the Doctor finding peace — well, do we really want that? Wouldn’t that mean that the story –and the show — was essentially at an end?

[janetteB @janetteb]

@jimthefish Just what I was going to say. We knew that the Doctor would not be able to cope with peace anyway. He would implode within a day judging by his antics while staying at the medieval monastery.

cheers

Janette

[MissRori @missrori]

@jimthefish and @janette True, true.  Still — he had a point when he asked if he was owed the chance to save Clara.  He’s done so much good for so many others, and when he asks for so little in return, he doesn’t get it!  I’d say he has a lot of debts to collect upon — especially after the confession dial torment.  (Rotten old Time Lords!)  Maybe he can’t have peace…but at least he can finally know eternal happiness someday, can’t he?  😉

@jimthefish You’ll probably be waiting quite a while for the trade edition of Supremacy of the Cybermen.  Part Two was supposed to be released on July 20, but it’s been rescheduled for next Wednesday (August 17).  And there are three more parts to go after that.  Titan Comics really botched this one — I would have thought they’d get their “big” event series for the year out on time, but nope.  What’s really sad is that it probably won’t be good enough to make up for the endless delays (Part One’s pretty much just scene-setting, and the Doctors aren’t even close to getting together as yet); it might have been great fun released over 10 weeks as advertised, but over several months…(sigh)  Hopefully I’m wrong, but I have a hunch most of Part Two will be more scene-setting and backstory.

[ichabod @ichabod]

Hasn’t the Doctor always been presented and played as a scientist (of SF science, but still, science) rather than a mystic?  He might be hopeful of finding ways *around* death (postponement, mostly, as with post-Raven Clara), but even that is so that the “dead” person can go on being in our live universe as a player.  What sort of “Heaven” would a mind like the Doctor’s be happy in, happy enough to even stay there?  As far as that goes, I think he’s already IN his Heaven — the fictional version of our universe, full of wonders and horrors and crazy surprises, with him having the capacity to travel anywhere, any-when.

Or maybe that’s — Hell?  At least to the extent that he keeps losing people . . .

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

I’m in a mild state of shock. (Even though I have watched the episode previously, a year ago). So even though I know (this time) what’s going to happen, this episode can still move me profoundly. And I shed a tear at the coda of Rigsy’s little shrine to Clara at the abandoned Tardis.

On my first watch through a year ago, though I knew Clara was leaving at the end of the season, I hadn’t expected this ending. The episode started off so fun and light, Clara on 110%, yes indeed a bit wild and reckless but she carries it off well. And there was an intriguing mystery premise (trap streets), followed by the ongoing mystery of who or why Rigsy had been set up. And right up to the point where Ashildr/Me couldn’t take the curse off, I never suspected that Clara wasn’t going to get out of it. But the contrivance of the Raven (I guess it could be equated to a curse) was well ‘sold’ such that I never questioned it.

On the re-watch, I’ve realised that all the characters acquitted themselves honourably at the end – Clara, the Doctor, Rigsy, even Ashildr (who never intended harm to Rigsy or Clara). But they’ll all be feeling enormously guilty. Excellent writing and acting all round, especially Capaldi and Jenna. I can’t hate anybody (except maybe the unknowns who were blackmailing Ashildr) – it has the feeling of a Shakespearean tragedy – good deeds never go unpunished.

Was Clara’s death not important enough – she died by unlucky accident, not knowing what she was risking and not saving the world, just saving a graffiti artist?   I know some people think that way.   But I don’t agree.   Tragedy happens all the time by the most trivial chances, all we can do is deal with it.   I loved that Clara ordered the Doctor ‘no revenge’, even while I sympathised with his words to Ashildr that he might find that difficult to keep to.

This episode goes in the top drawer.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Just watched it again (I watch all the really good episodes twice, even on a re-watch through the series like I’m doing) and this time the last ten minutes had even more effect on me.    I liked the touch that Clara ordered Me to take the teleport bracelet off the Doctor before she would let Me take the shade off her – that’s Clara, trying to take control of the situation.   (That was the moment Me and the Doctor realised in shock that Clara had the shade, they both knew the implication of that).    I was damn near in tears as the realisation dawned on Clara that she wasn’t getting out of this one.

This is not only the best ‘parting’ scene in Doctor Who, it’s the best death scene I have ever watched in scifi.   And it’s precisely because all the actors dial back on the emotion and heroics and leave it to the viewer to feel it.   Oh, and excellent writing.

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Me again (no, not Ashildr/Me, Dentarthurdent ‘me’)   having just watched Face the Raven again.   A very impressive episode.  Herewith random notes –

The intro scene in the Tardis just perfectly shows the easy relationship that has developed between Clara and the Doc. Nicely acted.
Clara seems to be quite expert at using the Tardis technology. After her powerful performance subverting Bonnie in The Zygon Inversion, she is a force to be reckoned with. And she seems to be enjoying danger altogether too much, dangling out of the Tardis. (As Rigsy noticed). This is a sure sign she’s in for trouble ahead.
Is this the first mention in Who of ‘Retcon’?
I do like the extrapolation of the Somebody Else’s Problem field into hiding the trap street.
And I love the surrealism of the meeting of Clara and Ashildr/Me, who can’t remember Clara but re-reads her diary entries of their first meeting. “I enjoyed our conversations. I’ve read them many times.” The Moff likes little quirks like this, and they’re always entertaining. Nobody does it better. Actually, the episode is written by Sarah Dollard. She’s picked up on some of the Moff’s tricks extremely well, I have to say.
There is an awful lot of set-up in this episode, from trap streets to Lurkworms that generate the telepathic visual field (which I call Somebody-Else’s-Problem after Doug Adams who was, I think, the first to describe it), to the Raven.
Me can be quite ruthless in maintaining the stability of her street.
There’s a lot I would have said was typical Moff, Sarah Dollard echoes him extremely well – CLARA: I’m good cop, you’re bad cop. DOCTOR: Can I not be the good cop? CLARA: Doctor, we’ve discussed this. Your face.
Clara has this ingenious idea of taking the curse off Rigsy, since she has Mayor Me’s personal guarantee of safety. Is this being a bit too clever of Clara?
So, who did kill Anah?
Anahson is yet another complication, being a psychic girl disguised as a non-psychic boy. I’d almost say, too many complications, but I can’t really see how the episode would work without them.
And Anahson ‘sees’ that the whole affair with Rigsy was mystery bait to bring the Doctor.
And it seems Anah is only in stasis, and doesn’t the control panel on the stasis pod look remarkably TimeLordish? And it promptly clamps a teleport device on the Doctor.
And now the final twist, and the ultimate irony, that the Chronolock is only transferable once and becomes non-cancellable on transfer – which is to say, Me could cancel the hit on Rigsy but not on Clara.
This is almost as complicated as Blink.
The Doctor has never been more frightening than when he threatens eternal vengeance on Me if she can’t save Clara. And Clara is magnificent in that scene where she orders the Doctor not to take revenge.
So to sum up, the whole scenario was set up by Me, under blackmail from some unknown entities, to attract and entrap the Doctor. Clara was just entirely accidental collateral damage.
The final glimpse of Rigsy decorating the abandoned Tardis was very moving.

While the plotline was linear and easy to follow, there were so many special details – it could have collapsed into a confusing mess, especially with the mystery element. Full credit to the writer that it remained convincing and gripping from start to finish.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent Sorry for not commenting earlier on this excellent review. I have been busy in the past couple of week and not been able to post as much as I would like.

I think you sum up the episode really well. I am not sure that Anah was attached or was the entire story about her being killed a fiction designed to trap the Doctor? I need to re-watch it clearly. I loved the depiction of the Trap Street community. That is captured really well in this episode and there are plenty of interesting minor characters, sign of a good writer. I must check and see if Sarah Dollard has done any other scripts for Who. This one is very good. I do often wonder though as to the degree that Moffat edited scripts.

Cheers

Janette

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Hi @janetteb, thanks for your kind comment.

Apparently Anah was not killed, she was being kept in stasis.   I wasn’t sure if she was injured, but, checking the transcript from Chrissie’s site, it appears not.

How much of the Street was a party to Me’s deception I don’t know, but I would think very few.   It seems from witnesses that Rigsy was caught standing over Anah’s ‘unconscious’ body, so presumably she was part of the scheme – probably under threat from Me.   Her daughter Anahson certainly believed she was dead.   It would have taken a strong threat to make Anah allow her daughter to think that.   But anyway the Doctor released her from stasis unharmed.

So I’d guess just Me, Anah and probably Rump were involved.   Rump did seem to be frank enough in explaining the Shade and the chronolock to Clara, no reason why he should have mentioned that the chronolock was only transferable once.   In fact nobody intended Clara to be in danger, she brought that on herself by being a bit too clever.   But admirably courageous.

Sarah Dollard (according to Tardis.fandom.com) also wrote Thin Ice, which was the second(?) one with Bill Potts as companion.

And yes, I think I detect the Moff’s prints all over Face the Raven – I may be doing Sarah Dollard an injustice there, but some of the lines are what I’d call ‘pure Moff’.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb   And oh yes, the minor characters are all well written.   There could almost be a spinoff, there.   The dramas of an alien ‘refugee’ society in modern London.   (I had a sudden flashback to Neil Gaiman’s ‘Neverwhere’).    Not sure quite how well I’d like it though.  I tend to prefer series that have just a couple of main characters, ensemble casts tend to dilute the drama for me.

Me has become quite ruthless by now.   I would have expected to see more lines on her face, but presumably the Mire medicine kit also functions as an anti-ageing treatment.

 

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