Listen

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Listen

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  • #42833
    Missy @missy

    Explain Clara prime and claricle please? You’ve lost me.

    Interesting discussion.

    Missy

    #42836
    Anonymous @

    @missy if you’ve seen last season -or the one before that you’d know that Clara was born to be the Impossible Girl: C. Oswald was the original Clara whereas the ‘Claras’ who jumped into the Doctor’s timestream were ‘claricles’: they saved the Dr just as the GI tried to interfere negatively in the Dr’s future.

    #42840
    Missy @missy

    @purofilion

    Thank you puro. I’ve never been able to work out who Clara actually was. What really confused me – even though we are talking about ‘time’ here – is her being outside the Tardis on Gallifrey and persuading the Doctor to take that one?

    Missy

    #42848
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    this is one of the basic areas of Who 2 seasons ago. I’m assuming you just started watching last year, though? ūüôā

    Have a look at the DVD of The Name of the Doctor:¬† find the thread and from there, read the comments -they’ll enlighten you quite a bit as to what’s been going on that far back. It’s a little late here for me, I’m afraid. But the comments are helpful and there’s a blurb at the front -a synopsis which outlines the main elements. The various posts should give you more detail than I probably can.

    I think you’ve worked your way around the site by now? ūüôā It’s fairly easy.

    ūüôā

    #42849
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    due to avoiding spoilers I’ll be off line (maybe -if I can!) till the airing of TMA on Sunday. Knowing me, I’ll find it difficult though ūüôā

    #42852
    DoctorRiverSong @doctorriversong

    I think everyone might be overthinking this a bit much, but if she is at all in relation to the Doctor it’d have to be because she’s Jenny (The Doctor’s Daughter). If you think about it River and Jenny are the only two besides Missy/The Master who are somewhat Time lord or full on Time lord. However with Clara’s beginning during Matt Smith’s run it shows that’s clearly not the case. But I do think that Clara is one of one the best companions he’s had so far (Besides River & Amy). And if you pay more attention to that scene where Clara gives the young child (You totally know Who!) the toy solider its more of to give him confidence, which in result could have led the Doctor to become the Doctor in the first place. So basic summary, I don’t think they are related but I do think Clara influenced the Doctors life almost more than anyone else.

    #42853
    DoctorRiverSong @doctorriversong

    Also would like to add that if you remember correctly from the Day of The Doctor not only was the time locked lifted but it was also stowed away safely. (“Like a painting.”) So yes its a total possibility it wasn’t a dream and they were in Gallifrey. Well that’s my theory anyhow, just something for you all to think on.

    #42865
    GallifreyanGoldfish @thecleverzygon

    @doctorriversong Seems like you’ve put alot of thought into this?

     

     

    #42871
    Anonymous @

    @thecleverzygon LOL.

    @doctorriversong

    Did you say “overthinking?”

    Are you new?¬†¬† The headline of this Forum is “theories more insane than is actually happening.” ūüôā

    This is gives us license to bonkerise at great length and boy, do we!

    I might add that there’s no such thing as overthinking. Thinking is very much the point. If Moffat didn’t want us to overthink this, there’d be no Moffat and no show. ūüôā

    And if you pay more attention to that scene

    I think we have. Paid attention that is!

    Welcome, by the way.

    Kindest, Purofilion

     

    #42875
    DoctorRiverSong @doctorriversong

    I’m just a bit way to logical when thinking of the Doctor, sorry if I dissed anyone, I am new though, and ya all I do with my free time is think ethier Doctor or River lol. Sorry though if I offended anyone.

    @Purifilion@GallifreyanGoldfish

    #42880
    Anonymous @

    @doctorriversong

    No, not at all! I was just saying that crazy and bizarre theories (ie: over thinking) is exactly what we do here. Over thinking is just one of those hazards which are part of being Who-obsessives. Who me? No, not obsessive, just …maybe, a little bit.¬† ūüôā

    On the logic of Who, I think it has internal logic: it fits when the puzzle pieces come neatly together and they absolutely do -most of the time.

    On the other thread, we were discussing how difficult it is to speculate as to which genre these episodes fit. Sometimes, they are genre-unfriendly and simply refuse to be branded.

    Anyway, as I said before, welcome. If you pop to the Memory Thread or the Companions thread you can write how you first came to enjoy the show, who your favourite Doctor and companion is/was.

    I hope you’re looking forward to the new show: if you’re in the UK (I think you’re from the US) then it’s sooner than for us….@JanetteB and I are preparing with Jammy Dodgers, custard, fish fingers and jelly babies -but we’re in Oz and therefore wait a further day.

    Worth the wait ūüôā

    #42881
    GallifreyanGoldfish @thecleverzygon

    @doctorriversong Another One! What I mean by that if you see my tag, It’s @thecleverzygon. Thank You. You know, perhaps I’ll change my name back?

    #42883
    Anonymous @

    @thecleverzygon No, no, stick with it -we have a few members whose tag is different to their user name so that’s fine. Also, your present one, purely¬†from a typing sense, is simpler!

    Kindest, P.

    #43759
    Kharis @kharis

    @bluesqueakpip The journey of the soldier toy never bothered me because I saw it exactly the way you do. ¬†It’s simply ends up with the Doctor. ¬†My thoughts are more preoccupied with the two Clara characters in the episode. ¬†When Clara enters the restaurant for the second time, and sees herself walk away, is this the moment original Clara disappears? ¬†No, because that Clara goes home and goes traveling with the Doctor, so she can be in that exact spot. ¬†What happened to the Clara walking away? ¬†Does she have her own alternative time line? ¬†‘Listen’ is so jam packed with questions like these that it has become one of my favourite episodes.

    #43774
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @kharis

    No, the Clara walking away walks back sadly to her flat. Only to discover that she can’t get into her bedroom because the nightmare date now has 50% more added nightmare – Space Dad hiding in her bedroom to make absolutely sure she doesn’t get up to anything. ūüėČ

    In other words, Clara Walking Away is walking back to the beginning of the episode.

    #43777
    Kharis @kharis

    @bluesqueakpip Thank you. ¬†Another question, why doesn’t Danny have any recognition of her at all when she goes back to the restaurant a second time? ¬†Especially when she mentioned the name Rupert? ¬†How come he doesn’t remember that? ¬†And my problem with the two Clara’s at the same time is I thought that would cause horrible things to occur, like in Father’s Day. ¬†Is it just that her time in the restaurant was so short that it didn’t cause any issues? ¬†I guess that simple explanation is the best I can come up. ¬†Still don’t understand why Danny by the second trip to the restaurant didn’t recognise her.

    Also, I wonder about how the word “listen”<span style=”line-height: 1.5;”>¬†got on the chalkboard. ¬†Did the Doctor go back in time and write it or was it someone else? ¬†</span>

    #43808
    Anonymous @

    @kharis

    to take your last question first, I think that how and who wrote the word ‘listen’ is still unresolved -to some extent. However, Clara was fairly sure of this adequate explanation -that it was the Doctor’s handwriting & that he was confused.¬† I think she says “have you met you?” ūüôā

    With Clara in the restaurant and the general time travelling part – it was quick ‘meddling’ in time & so possibly didn’t constitute a major ‘timey whimey’ problem. I realise that’s a pretty half-assed answer, but still…..perhaps others would have more to offer on that point.

    I honestly hadn’t thought of your question about why Danny (as Rupert) doesn’t remember Clara. That there’s not something in the back of his mind saying “gee, you’re familiar to me, it’s just that I don’t know why. Do you remember?”

    It’s a good question. We’ve established it was Danny/Rupert, but I wonder if a female stranger in the middle of the night in his room under ambient lighting (read: bad light!) appeared as¬†indistinct or blurry. A¬†face all “wide” with huge brown eyes. How old, I wonder, was Danny when he met Clara and the Doctor? These two rather weird strangers showing up in the night and wandering in unannounced, might be relegated to its own dream state.

    Having said that, with the blanket monster¬†behind them and the Doctor¬†yelling, “don’t turn around, don’t look. DON’T. LOOK” I can’t imagine¬†Rupert¬†forgetting this¬†event instantly -it was so startling, vivid and filled with colour and movement. A beautiful and exciting young lady with an older male companion speaking of¬†super powers? Leaving behind a soldier toy to guard against his fears (of course the parallel is, which child and what fear?¬† ūüôā¬†¬† )

    I don’t think I’d forget, myself. But would he¬†necessarily then connect that event with this particular woman, now that he’s a man of similar age? A rational person, a brave soldier,¬†to whom dreams might be something he¬†rarely considers? And to be attracted to this woman, the same person -perhaps he’s wiped his mind!

    Ah, but is there¬†a possibility of a¬†mind wipe? When the Doctor was asked by Rupert to tell a story he said, “Once upon a time. The end,” aaaand, ‘plop,’ the child falls instantly to sleep. He might remember the soldier and¬†its importance but would he recall all the circumstances around which he received it?

    Would the Doctor ensure he would not? ūüôā

     

    #43809
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @kharis  @purofilion

    I’m pretty sure that after little Rupert falls asleep, Clara asks the Doctor if he will remember, and the Doctor says no, something about a memory wipe or perception filter. And that he’s replaced the true memory with a dream of Dan the Soldier Man. So Danny would never remember any of those events.

    #43811
    Kharis @kharis

    @purofilion I guess we have to assume he wiped his memory, which he has done before. ¬†The whole episode begs to be studied by crazy Whovians like ourselves. ¬†The fact Clara was only there for a moment in the restaurant was how I accepted it until then, but then I started thinking about a few crazy theories. ¬†What if the Doctor came back to help Clara somehow, that night as she’s talking away, maybe even a different regeneration of the Doctor. ¬†What if he steers her away right then on another path? ¬†I know I’ve gone crazy now splitting hairs. ¬†But what has been getting to me even more is that Danny doesn’t actually own up to the name Rupert. ¬†He just said he hasn’t used that name in years. ¬†Now I’m really splitting hairs. ¬†Maybe the kid is related to Danny Pink. ¬†Maybe the Tardis took Clara where it wanted, I remember being surprised to see the TARDIS doing Clara’s bidding on any level but then dismissed my shock as the episode progressed. ¬†Maybe the Time Lord relation is Donna, Martha and Mikey, or any other companion known to be able to have children.

    I know this is bonkers, and most likely it is grandchild never to have been born.

    Okay, less bonkers is who wrote “listen” on the chalkboard? ¬†It was someone aboard the TARDIS. ¬†Outside of he just forgot that he ran upstairs wrote it and forgot, that leaves us with someone wrote it. ¬†Could someone be in the TARDIS invisible? ¬†Could it be River? ¬†The TARDIS wouldn’t just let anyone on board. ¬†Just some fun thoughts.

    @bluesqueakpip

     

    #43812
    Kharis @kharis

    @arbutus I remember that now. Thanks, that does help clarify. ¬†ūüôā

    #55051
    gr20 @gr20

    I didn’t put much thought into this episode and pow! this whole forum post is just stuffing all this information in my head ;o;

    Can someone please explain to me in baby smol easy-to-understand words? >.<

    #55107
    MissRori @missrori

    @kharis I like your theories on who might have written on the chalkboard.

    During Series 8 I wrote a poem playing with this sort of thing, in which the Doctor — having lost Clara for good — is alone in the TARDIS and brooding but then senses an invisible presence. ¬†He believes it must be the “Hider”, though it could just be his imagination again, and decides to tell it the story of him and Clara…

    #56228
    Kharis @kharis

    @missrori

    I’d like to read that poem. (:

    Okay, for various reasons tonight I’m back on my extra crazy theories regarding ‘Listen’ but can’t get into all of them without spoilers for the new season.

     

    #68637
    syzygy @thane16

    OK. Don’t roll your eyes people. I’m re-doing the Peter Capaldi years.

    It’s like a Christmas gift.

    I’m pretty sure LISTEN is SILENT (s) so the monster’s an actual monster. The Doctor says: “don’t look in the reflection.” But, during the escapade to the end of the universe, it’s just the ship settling, & its pipes, dry & unused, start knocking. I think Gold’s music helps with this understanding -he’s using a sweeping Beethoven like motif (with a late Romantic style) reaching a climax during Clara’s speech to the young Doctor. So, the Doctor really has based his initial conjecture on experience, but being very clever, can hear his dreams too. The music is re-created, it sounds very much like several famous symphonies but it’s not, it’s Murray’s own,¬† which led me to think that the music, the romance if you like, is the back drop to reality. It’s ‘balanced out’ that way & co-joined.

    There’s no monster at the end of the universe unless it’s the Hybrid….

    My question, coming well after Danny’s death is “how did Orson have Pink relatives?”¬† Did Danny have a brother? But at what point did Dan (Rupert) pass on the toy soldier? Did Clara go back in the moments between her heart beats to find Danny?

    #68657
    janetteB @janetteb

    @thane16 nooooo Don’t go there. I spent months trying to work out how the Toy Soldier¬† got around and came up with an entire swag of absurd theories. I even had it getting from the Doctor back to Danny through Susan or something. I don’t recall the full details now.¬† Listen generated so many loose narrative threads which, I suspect, S.M, did not resolve himself. It is still one of my favourite episodes. I watched it too, just a few weeks ago when I was going through the Christmas Specials.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #68659
    syzygy @thane16

    @janetteb

    Ah, bangs head ūüėČ

    No, you’re right. Danny dies & yes, he’s in a children’s home but chatting with one who was also in a kid’s home -you have mates, brothers & others you don’t always tell things about. Some mad dudette arrives in your room with a great big grey stick insect & you’re not going to open up fully. So, I deduce the idea of who had it was always there. But Moffy, being him, says “pay bloomin’ attention” and therefore in Listen, you hear two words: Family Stuff.” Also, in other eps, “I know when you’re lying. I know the truth. I know when people¬†or others [ie me, Danny] lie.”

    So yes maybe the Doctor puts it in the box first.

    Clara finds it by rummaging, and pulls it out.

    It’s in Danny’s home (back of a cupboard, as you do)

    After he dies, a person (who isn’t Clara) claims it, they have grand-kids and one of ’em, Orson, has it in his bag & Clara nicks it &

    gives it to the young Doctor who ‚Ķ…puts¬† it in Rupert’s box.

    We know this Doc is pretty old & can’t remember everything -Kill the Moon & Deep Breath.

     

    On all the bonkerising. In the end, Clara is talking to Danny about telling him the truth. No call from the ‘future.’ He himself wrote Listen because he laughed & chalk falls….He did say “I’ll be there in a …few minutes” so she knew¬† where to run.¬† No pregnancy though there was a lot of debate on that. Likely, she’s been with Danny for 3 months & also travelling with the Doctor. The whole “I can cope with this. I’m in control” set that up.¬† There was no mini- suction or miniaturisation either as @arbutus¬† listed the dialogue.

    But I read all 11 pages of the thread & it was orsome!¬† The complexity. Only after watching Buffy did I conclude that, for me, a lot of that doesn’t matter all the time? I’m not saying it’s not fun! It’s huuge fun & the Forum’s <i>traction</i>. For me, it’s relationships. The broad strokes of lives. As Whedon said “it’s not the monsters, it’s the love, folks.” Or the Doctor’s “you don’t really see me.”

    But it’s brilliant to watch great telly. In Listen there’s a section? Where the Doctor’s on Orson’s ship. Something like “they prey on the very young, the very old, or the very ill…” and it breaks my heart. Those words are what Moffat’s getting at too, and it’s Capaldi’s pleading which opens up the idea.

    Gosh, rambling post. typed by Thane {ahem mother, about time}

    #68668
    winston @winston

    @thane16 and @janetteb   I liked that episode a lot but I have not watched in awhile and now I want to again! So many questions and mysteries in that episode. Like who or what if anything is under the blanket on the bed. That actually gives me the creeps and I hate not knowing.I better read the thread again in case someone had some answers. I will watch tomorrow when I make and bake pies so I can comment.

     

    #68690
    nerys @nerys

    I love “Listen” … but I admit it doesn’t quite come together, given all that transpired later, in a satisfactory way. There are lots of loose ends, and no matter how I try to make it work in my mind, the realization that Orson Pink cannot be a direct descendant of Clara and Danny leaves me feeling like there was a missed opportunity. Granted, Steven Moffat doesn’t owe me a thing, and he has produced such a brilliant body of work, in Doctor Who alone, that I am reluctant to complain. I do love how we learn that it is Clara under the Doctor’s bed. But the difficulty in trying to work out exactly who Orson Pink is descended from (and knowing that there is no way, except for some timey-wimey twist, that it could be Clara and Danny) leaves me feeling a bit frustrated. Maybe if I watch it again, after so much time has passed, I will feel less frustrated.

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